Apps that Stalk? Which ones are we missing??

[DesertBlossom]

I have no idea, but this is so creepy. I agree that someone should take her phone and see if he shows up. Someone he might not recognize who could watch him if/when he showed up to analyze his behavior. Like, is he looking around for her, checking his phone like he's trying to pinpoint her location, etc. 

[DesertBlossom]

I would hope the guy isn't dangerous. But then again if he set up a stalking app.....

[Pen]

Haven’t read all the responses, but for starters, I think she needs to make very sure that she herself has clearly told him, possibly by phone with you and others to witness and even record at least her end of it.  

1) I am not interested in any sort of relationship with you.

2) I want you to stay away completely away from me.  

When she has done both those things

3) “Leave me alone” if he approaches her again.

4) if he does not leave her alone, contact police. Maybe contact police anyway.  

 

There could be some missing link friend who is letting him know some of her whereabouts.  So telling her friends clearly that she has zero interest in him and is feeling stalked could help, especially if someone thinks she’s playing match maker behind the scenes and is deliberately rather than accidentally egging him on.  

 

Have her also read The Gift of Fear

[Pen]

Possibly also Have her Practice screaming and if he bothers her again in a public place scream! Get attention.   Make dislike clear.  Don’t make polite small talk.

polite can confuse him and others around into thinking they are friends

I agree with pepper spray, self defense class, ...

phone kept ready to auto dial emergency number 911, 999 or whatever for your area. 

And maybe an emergency whistle for an SOS Sound.  

[Katy]

Don't have her get a gun unless she can invest the time it takes to learn about them properly, from a qualified instructor, and practice shooting enough to have the muscle memory to do so properly even under high stress.  That will take hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars and a lot of people still wouldn't feel confident in their skills.  Unskilled people wielding guns is where the statistics about it being more likely to be turned on them comes from.

If you want her to learn to fight him off after a basic self-defense class Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is the best option in terms of real fighting skills.

I wonder how much just flat-out telling him that he is being creepy would help. 

[Pen]

I Suggest she Practice with you: telling him she’s not interested to be sure it sounds definite, strong, clear and absolute.   not wishy  washy indefinite or possibly itself  a flirtation— maybe have a guy listen and give feedback.   And no saying “just friends”.  

If he is anywhere she is, ask a friend to escort her home, or if she’s alone, ask store etc security personnel to escort her to her car and wait till she’s locked in and driving away without stalker dude following.

[Sneezyone]

Maybe I've seen one too many Lifetime movies but I do not understand all of the advice to talk to the perp. This isn't a one-off thing. He brushed up against me one time and I was uncomfortable? NO. This is a pattern; a concerning one. I would not speak to him at all. I *might* email him to say how I felt and make it clear that I would obtain a restraining order if he continued to pursue. I would not grace him with my presence (a gift) and I would take any/all available precautions short of a gun (pepper spay, self-defense, new phone, etc) in the mean time. I would also obtain a restraining order and have him arrested if there was ANY further contact or attempts to make contact via friends.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

 

14 hours ago, cave canem said:

I think it would be awesome if you took her phone with you and went somewhere and see if he shows up. Then you would see if it's her phone that's allowing him to know where she is. I think it would be funny.

 

I like this idea.  

 

In A very public place.

 

you could also test out a fake Snapchat or other social media post about her going to be somewhere , but she doesn’t go. Someone else like Mike goes without her. Sees if David shows up

 

and her car and iPhone could be professionally checked for tracers probably too

 

[Pen]

4 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Maybe I've seen one too many Lifetime movies but I do not understand all of the advice to talk to the perp. This isn't a one-off thing. He brushed up against me one time and I was uncomfortable? NO. This is a pattern; a concerning one. I would not speak to him at all. I *might* email him to say how I felt and make it clear that I would obtain a restraining order if he continued to pursue. I would not grace him with my presence (a gift) and I would take any/all available precautions short of a gun (pepper spay, self-defense, new phone, etc) in the mean time. I would also obtain a restraining order and have him arrested if there was ANY further contact or attempts to make contact via friends.

 

I thought talking directly to him could be helpful (or not) because it isn’t clear to me that he has been clearly told directly by her that she isn’t interested and IMO that should come first.  

I think it unlikely that a judge would grant a restraining order without clear proof that he’s been clearly told she’s not interested and to stay away.  And/Or proof of some illegal stalking like that he’s put a tracker on her phone or car or something.  And/Or violent behavior toward her.  

He has mutual friends.  He has shown up where she is. He’s looked at her. (She’s probably looked at him too- and he may misread interest, think it’s an interested flirting glance she gives him, not worry and feeling creeped out by him.  He may think maybe she’s as secretly obsessed with him as he is with her, think she must feel the same deep “connection”) He’s sat near her. He’s talked to her date. What’s a judge going to say?  

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by Pen
Clarity no advice just FYI thoughts

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I advised talking directly to him because it isn’t clear to me that he has been clearly told directly by her that she isn’t interested and IMO that should come first.  

I think it unlikely that a judge would grant a restraining order without clear proof that he’s been clearly told she’s not interested and to stay away.  And/Or proof of some illegal stalking like that he’s put a tracker on her phone or car or something.  And/Or violent behavior toward her.  

He has mutual friends.  He has shown up where she is. He’s looked at her. (She’s probably looked at him too- and he may misread interest, think it’s an interested flirting glance she gives him, not worry and feeling creeped out by him.  He may think maybe she’s as secretly obsessed with him as he is with her, think she must feel the same deep “connection”) He’s sat near her. He’s talked to her date. What’s a judge going to say?  

 

Which is why I think an email is appropriate. It's in writing and provides solid documentation. In person meetings with the DD or father are, IMO, foolish risks and unnecessary.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Which is why I think an email is appropriate. It's in writing and provides solid documentation. In person meetings with the DD or father are, IMO, foolish risks and unnessessary.

 

Email usually doesn’t document that the communication was received and read on other end.  

A witnessed phone call; recorded on just the dd side —or both sides recorded if that’s legal in their jurisdiction — would probably be better legal proof.  

It could also give the dd and others a bit of a sense of his apparent immediate reaction. 

 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Pen said:

 

Email usually doesn’t document that the communication was received and read on other end.  

A witnessed phone call; recorded on just the dd side —or both sides recorded if that’s legal in their jurisdiction — would probably be better legal proof.  

It could also give the dd and others a bit of a sense of his apparent immediate reaction. 

 

Read receipt.

[vonfirmath]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Read receipt.

 

Doesn't work consistenly.

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Doesn't work consistenly.

 

Maybe not but it is certainly a thing and I trust LEO can find out if it was received/read if the need arises.

[gardenmom5]

22 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

Read receipt.

the recipient can deny a read receipt is sent.  I've always had them give me the option of sending or not.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

Maybe I've seen one too many Lifetime movies but I do not understand all of the advice to talk to the perp. This isn't a one-off thing. He brushed up against me one time and I was uncomfortable? NO. This is a pattern; a concerning one. I would not speak to him at all. I *might* email him to say how I felt and make it clear that I would obtain a restraining order if he continued to pursue. I would not grace him with my presence (a gift) and I would take any/all available precautions short of a gun (pepper spay, self-defense, new phone, etc) in the mean time. I would also obtain a restraining order and have him arrested if there was ANY further contact or attempts to make contact via friends.

I also don't understand all the "I would talk to him". . . . he's being creepy, while he might stop, -- I would be afraid someone confronting him would trigger him to go underground with the stalking. 

I don't know if it's reached the point she could get a restraining order.  (depends upon jurisdiction, and the judge)

have the car and phone professional searched for tracking apps/trackers - that will be admissible and irrefutable evidence someone is following her (if gets to the point of going to court, and he hires a lawyer, the lawyer will claim she planted them herself to frame him.  I'm just telling you how their minds work.)   But even if she's denied, filing for one will leave a paper trail for the future.

if he shows up,  absolutely do NOT talk to him.  Tell him she doesn't want to speak with him, and walk off.  if he follows - find a clerk and demand they get store/mall security immediately.  they'll escort her to her car.    that is something that can be used in a restraining order application.

 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the recipient can deny a read receipt is sent.  I've always had them give me the option of sending or not.

 

There is a record on every server of emails sent and received. ETA: I just don't think talking to someone is a good idea.It doesn't matter if you communicate by email or certified mail or what. My point was, in person isn't something I would advise. It puts additional people at risk.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Pen]

22 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Would a lawyer's letter sent by registered post be useful?

 

This strikes me as likely to be more helpful than an email.   And maybe safer than a phone call.  

 

[Pen]

US jurisdictions with stalking specific protection orders: 

Alaska Colorado Florida Georgia Illinois Kansas Kentucky

Michigan New Jersey Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Puerto Rico Rhode Island South Carolina

South Dakota Texas U.S. Virgin Islands Utah Vermont Washington Wyoming

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I also don't understand all the "I would talk to him". . . . he's being creepy, while he might stop, -- I would be afraid someone confronting him would trigger him to go underground with the stalking. 

 

Maybe.  But that could happen anyway. 

And some people would stop if they clearly understood that there’s nothing on other side.

The longer there’s no clarity the longer there can be for even a relatively normal person to imagine the other person is in love too.  

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I don't know if it's reached the point she could get a restraining order.  (depends upon jurisdiction, and the judge)

Some Jurisdictions and rules linked below.

showing that the contact is “unwanted” is probably required which goes back to telling the dude to stop. That is is unwanted.

if the guy is really dangerous a restraining order itself might make things even worse

 

12 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

have the car and phone professional searched for tracking apps/trackers - that will be admissible and irrefutable evidence someone is following her (if gets to the point of going to court, and he hires a lawyer, the lawyer will claim she planted them herself to frame him.  I'm just telling you how their minds work.)   But even if she's denied, filing for one will leave a paper trail for the future.

if he shows up,  absolutely do NOT talk to him.  Tell him she doesn't want to speak with him, and walk off.  if he follows - find a clerk and demand they get store/mall security immediately.  they'll escort her to her car.    that is something that can be used in a restraining order application.

 

 

 

ITA

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

Haven’t read all the responses, but for starters, I think she needs to make very sure that she herself has clearly told him, possibly by phone with you and others to witness and even record at least her end of it.  

 

 

I understand why people recommend this, but honestly, I think it's a bad idea. Opening up communication to tell him not to bother her is like telling him "This is exactly the level of harassment you need to engage in to get me to contact you". If he "accidentally bumps into her" again I think it's okay to say it once, very succinctly - but calling him up or seeking him out or even emailing him? No. No, no, no.

[gardenmom5]

36 minutes ago, Pen said:

US jurisdictions with stalking specific protection orders: 

Alaska Colorado Florida Georgia Illinois Kansas Kentucky

Michigan New Jersey Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Puerto Rico Rhode Island South Carolina

South Dakota Texas U.S. Virgin Islands Utah Vermont Washington Wyoming

so Mississippi isn't on the list . . . . . (or maybe I've confused states with a different thread.)

 

 

 

 

 

[Pen]

1 minute ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

 

I don’t know what state this person is in.  heartlikealion is in Mississippi 

not being on list doesn’t necessarily mean there’s nothing at all.  California has a civil harassment restraining order that could apply to stalking 

[Katy]

23 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

I understand why people recommend this, but honestly, I think it's a bad idea. Opening up communication to tell him not to bother her is like telling him "This is exactly the level of harassment you need to engage in to get me to contact you". If he "accidentally bumps into her" again I think it's okay to say it once, very succinctly - but calling him up or seeking him out or even emailing him? No. No, no, no.

 

But he will show up again.  That's when you have the conversation.  This isn't an established stalker situation with a clearly crazy guy.  This is a teenage boy who is part of her friend group who only recently crossed the line from acting like he has a crush to acting creepy.

[maize]

2 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

But he will show up again.  That's when you have the conversation.  This isn't an established stalker situation with a clearly crazy guy.  This is a teenage boy who is part of her friend group who only recently crossed the line from acting like he has a crush to acting creepy.

This isn't a teenager, he's a college graduate.

[Katy]

3 minutes ago, maize said:

This isn't a teenager, he's a college graduate.

 

I missed that he graduated college early.  I still think in any state she needs to CLEARLY tell him in front of witnesses that she isn't interested, she will never be interested, and he needs to stop following her or she will file a complaint with the police in order for him to be guilty of anything.  If he then escalates at that point you deal.  But I'm sure he's unaware his behavior is creepy.

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

I missed that he graduated college early.  I still think in any state she needs to CLEARLY tell him in front of witnesses that she isn't interested, she will never be interested, and he needs to stop following her or she will file a complaint with the police in order for him to be guilty of anything.  If he then escalates at that point you deal.  But I'm sure he's unaware his behavior is creepy.

This isn't just creepy vibes.  He has warned off two men in her life - crossing a significant boundary.  Not that they have listened but he's not just mooning about and possibly running into her coincidentally. 

[Tanaqui]

His longstanding behavior, even when he was a teenager, sounds pretty darn creepy to me already. He hasn't recently crossed a line to creepiness, he was already there in his previous dating behavior. He's simply escalated to more visible forms of creepiness. And really, it's not like you have to have been creepy for a sufficient length of time before it's okay for people to ghost you.

Quote

But I'm sure he's unaware his behavior is creepy.

 

It's not his target's job to educate him. Literally anybody in the world could tell him that his behavior is unacceptable.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Tanaqui

[maize]

47 minutes ago, Katy said:

 

But I'm sure he's unaware his behavior is creepy.

 

The stuff he has done--lying or misleading both her and others in her group at the movie theater to get her alone with him; seemingly tracking her to a restaurant when she is on a date with someone else, interrogating her date, then leaving without ordering, etc.--those are well outside the realm of normal behavior. If he has as suspected used a tracking app or device of some kind that moves things up several notches and there is no way any person with normal social understanding would think that is OK.

I remember being a young adult and having a crush on someone. I'm pretty sure there were times in college when I lingered in a hallway waiting for classes to get out hoping to "bump into" someone I knew to be taking a class there. I would consider that within the realm of normal for a young adult who is interested in someone else.

I never tried to follow someone on a date, or accost the person they were with, or trick them into leaving a theater through the doors farthest from friends, or generally track and follow their movements and insert myself at inappropriate points. This is not behavior anyone should think is normal. It is obsessive in a dangerous way.

[Selkie]

From what I have read, OP's dd should have absolutely no contact with the stalker whatsoever. No talking to him, no texts, no emails. She should stay away from places that he frequents, and if he shows up when she is out in public, she should leave immediately. She shouldn't acknowledge him at all, because any attention he gets from her (even negative attention) fuels the fire of his obsession.

As far as restraining orders and legal action, the stalker might actually get a thrill from that because he has gotten his victim's attention. She has been forced to acknowledge him.

OP needs to get advice from an expert. Whether that is local law enforcement, I don't know. She might need to do some searching online for someone who really has expertise in how to effectively deal with this.

 

[easypeasy]

Thank you all for your responses - they really helped as we were trying to sort out the situation. Trying to not let our imaginations run away with all of the "what if's" and "what could be's"...

There is an update,

 

On 10/11/2019 at 2:47 PM, happysmileylady said:

  Boys are....dumb sometimes.  Which is why I think he needs to actually be *told* before things like going to the police or lawyer happen.

 

Yes. This. Seems like the most likely explanation.

Turns out, he has not put any stalking apps on her phone. This has been a mixture of a lot of things just coming to a head.

David is leaving in a few weeks because his job is sending him to Europe for 6 months. He has apologized. Profusely. We believe him. He leaves in November for 6 months.

DD has learned to be careful when sharing her location with anyone at any time for any reason in any app.

DD already carries pepper spray, but has enrolled in a self-defense class that begins in November. It's something that's been on the "to-do" list for a long time, but she just never forced it into her schedule. She has now.

Edited October 16, 2019 by easypeasy

[easypeasy]

Oh, and I read him the riot act - outlining exactly each and every one of his actions that were over the top. He’s in no doubt that we were *thisclose* to contacting an attorney and the police & will not hesitate to do so if he acts in a sneaky way like this ever again toward DD. 

Edited October 11, 2019 by easypeasy

[maize]

Wow thanks for the update and I'm glad our worse fears were wrong!

Edited October 11, 2019 by maize

[fairfarmhand]

Wow. 

Poor guy and yet...

what a ding dong.

My dhs dad was super specific with him about how to treat women and girls.

dont do x that can be perceived as creepy.

dont do y. It makes women feel uncomfortable unless you know them really well.

he was so direct and explained over and over how vulnerable women are to men and it’s a mans job to put them at ease by behaving in a non threatening way. It’s something I plan on doing with my son.

[Pen]

I’m glad it’s been explained now.  

Good learning experience all around.

[Pen]

If you don’t feel it must be deleted now that the less scary ending was reached, maybe leave thread up and only selectively delete things.  It could help someone else in future. 

[DesertBlossom]

I do kinda feel bad for the guy. Maybe he's actually a decent guy. And your DD can take it as a compliment that she turned him into a bumbling idiot. Hopefully he has learned some lessons from this for the next time he wants to ask a girl out.

[TechWife]

Something has occurred to me. Is it possible that this man has Asperger Syndrome?  While that in no way would make his behavior acceptable, it might explain why he doesn’t speak with her in group settings. It isn’t uncommon for  people with ASD to have difficulty following conversations and picking  up social cues, both one on one and in groups, especially if conversation moves quickly or there is a lot of kidding around.  He could also be completely misinterpreting a lot of things. Again, this doesn’t excuse his inappropriate behavior, but it might give some insight. It might mean he needs specific information on exactly what he is doing that is creepy behavior. It could be that he doesn’t have bad intentions, just poor social skills. Of course he could have both poor social skills and bad intentions. Just some musing on my part. 

[Katy]

I'm so glad everything worked out okay.

And I'm glad he's going out of the country for 6 months.  It makes it much easier to believe him.

 

[easypeasy]

On 10/11/2019 at 5:30 PM, fairfarmhand said:

Wow. 

Poor guy and yet...

what a ding dong.

My dhs dad was super specific with him about how to treat women and girls.

dont do x that can be perceived as creepy.

dont do y. It makes women feel uncomfortable unless you know them really well.

he was so direct and explained over and over how vulnerable women are to men and it’s a mans job to put them at ease by behaving in a non threatening way. It’s something I plan on doing with my son.

 

I think this is getting harder for some dads - especially older dads (as is the case for David - he is the baby of the family & considerably younger than his brothers) - to do with the rapidly changing technology. AT this point, many boys/young men around this age seem to think that as long a they're not sending d!c+ pics, they're pretty much Prince Charming.

On 10/11/2019 at 6:00 PM, Pen said:

If you don’t feel it must be deleted now that the less scary ending was reached, maybe leave thread up and only selectively delete things.  It could help someone else in future. 

 

On 10/11/2019 at 6:59 PM, DesertBlossom said:

I do kinda feel bad for the guy. Maybe he's actually a decent guy. And your DD can take it as a compliment that she turned him into a bumbling idiot. Hopefully he has learned some lessons from this for the next time he wants to ask a girl out.

 

Hm. I'm very glad that he's going away for 6 months. Get thee to Europe, boy!!! Give this 6 months to sort yourselves and your emotions out independently of one another!

"Raising" very young adult children is a roller coaster. God bless us and keep us all. lol

(oh, and I say "Europe," but he's going to work in one specific country. I'm just choosing to not mention it here)

Edited October 16, 2019 by easypeasy

[easypeasy]

On 10/11/2019 at 11:34 PM, Seasider too said:

I am glad everything worked out the way it did, really, best case scenario under the circumstances. 

Now I have to know - surely I can’t be the only one wondering - in 6+ months are we going to hear she’s giving him a chance to date her? Like Darcy won Elizabeth Bennett’s heart starting with that first letter? 

 

*snort* I just sort of answered this in my post above! Must've been working on my reply when you posted this question.

I can see it now, "Kids, here's how I met your mother..." 🤣 Cops were almost called and she signed up for self-defense classes. Ah, the romance! 🤪😂

Gosh, parents have got to keep a sense of humor while raising kids, that is for sure and for certain.

Edited October 15, 2019 by easypeasy

[maize]

I'm going to be honest and say that I still see some red flags here.

Not that David isn't well intentioned. Not that much of this can't be explained by bungling youth and inexperience with relationships.

It sounds to me though that David is missing a critical understanding of how to relate to other humans as humans, the full give and take of a mutually respectful relationship. So much of what he attempted can be seen as an effort to manipulate your dd into fitting his vision of how things would go. Starting with his vision that she would be his girlfriend before he left for Europe. His trying to find out what other guys did that made her choose to date them. Even things like showing up at a restaurant with a vision of your family inviting him to sit down with all of you for dinner.

The missing component seems to be actual interest in your dd's thoughts and ideas and experience separate from what he is trying to get out of a situation or make a situation into.

I don't know of course, but I'm kind of wondering if your dd is more a two dimensional ideal in his head than a real person to relate to.

I'm not saying he is a monster or anything, I think he can have good will and also be lacking in social and emotional understanding of what deep and genuine relationships are.

[easypeasy]

On 10/12/2019 at 7:34 AM, maize said:

 

The missing component seems to be actual interest in your dd's thoughts and ideas and experience separate from what he is trying to get out of a situation or make a situation into.

I don't know of course, but I'm kind of wondering if your dd is more a two dimensional ideal in his head than a real person to relate to.

I'm not saying he is a monster or anything, I think he can have good will and also be lacking in social and emotional understanding of what deep and genuine relationships are.

 

Oh, no doubt. That’s why I’m Very glad he’ll be away for 6 months and they can both cool off and mature a little bit. Separately. 

His having a “vision” of how things could be, though, doesn’t alarm me all that much. I think a lot of young people do this and idealize situations for their best-case scenario and then try to make that happen. I think the anxiety he was experiencing was comforted when he had “a plan” in place. They were just The Wrong plans. 

She’s definitely an idealized version of herself in his head & her real self is undoubtedly very different from that.

She’s got a very busy 7-8 months ahead of her with college stuff and then will be busy over the summer preparing for college. Perhaps over the summer they’ll want to see if they have any interest in one another’s real self... or DD will be too busy to pay him much mind... which is very likely... or perhaps he’ll have moved on with some hot blonde he meets in Europe. Who knows? The future is a funny thing! 

Having a flawed understanding of what real relationships entail is a quality of most young people I know. Even my kids’ friends who have already gotten married seemed to have NO honest idea of what they were getting in to. So that’s something I won’t hold against him just now. There are too many other flags I’ll be watching for to make sure they don’t make a reappearance. lol Bungling this because of youth and inexperience is forgivable. 

 

Edited October 16, 2019 by easypeasy

[PrincessMommy]

oh my goodness.. that whole thing sounds like a plot to a Romcom.    I'm glad it turned out as well as it did and I'm glad he's going to Europe.  It will give them both some time to step back and take a deep breath.  

[easypeasy]

On 10/12/2019 at 12:53 PM, PrincessMommy said:

and I'm glad he's going to Europe.  It will give them both some time to step back and take a deep breath.  

me too.

Edited October 16, 2019 by easypeasy

[ktgrok]

Go to the police. Maybe call first and tell them that your daughter is being stocked and you think they’re using her phone. Ask if they have someone with expertise in this area, perhaps cyber crimes? Tell them you want to meet with someone to both make a report and to see if they have any suggestions on how to handle it.

[dirty ethel rackham]

12 hours ago, maize said:

I'm going to be honest and say that I still see some red flags here.

Not that David isn't well intentioned. Not that much of this can't be explained by bungling youth and inexperience with relationships.

It sounds to me though that David is missing a critical understanding of how to relate to other humans as humans, the full give and take of a mutually respectful relationship. So much of what he attempted can be seen as an effort to manipulate your dd into fitting his vision of how things would go. Starting with his vision that she would be his girlfriend before he left for Europe. His trying to find out what other guys did that made her choose to date them. Even things like showing up at a restaurant with a vision of your family inviting him to sit down with all of you for dinner.

The missing component seems to be actual interest in your dd's thoughts and ideas and experience separate from what he is trying to get out of a situation or make a situation into.

I don't know of course, but I'm kind of wondering if your dd is more a two dimensional ideal in his head than a real person to relate to.

I'm not saying he is a monster or anything, I think he can have good will and also be lacking in social and emotional understanding of what deep and genuine relationships are.

I'm chiming in here that I am a still a little creeped out as well for these exact reasons.  He has moved beyond awkwardness into a complete lack of respect for boundaries.  This young lady isn't a prize to be won.  She is a person who should have the right to not be manipulated.  

[easypeasy]

45 minutes ago, dirty ethel rackham said:

 This young lady isn't a prize to be won.  She is a person who should have the right to not be manipulated.  

No argument here! 👍

He is very aware of boundaries now. 

Edited October 13, 2019 by easypeasy

[DesertBlossom]

15 minutes ago, easypeasy said:

No argument here! 👍

He is very aware of boundaries now. 

I worry that young men these days aren't being taught or don't see modeled healthy dating behavior. Our culture has shifted away from traditional dating and it feels a little bit like a free for all now. No rules for normal behavior. Just swipe right (or is it left?) and you're good to go. It's no wonder some kids really suck at figuring out how to get in and stay in healthy relationships. 

[Guest]

I’m with @maize. I still find several things concerning and I don’t think the letter makes everything better. If he said in the letter that girls have been throwing themselves at him since he was 12, but he doesn’t want those girls...something bothers me about that quite a bit. It seems like a manipulation like, “see how lucky you are? All these girls want me but I choose YOU,” Also, if he’s “normal” and he’s going to Europe soon, he should *NOT* be thinking he needs to seal the deal with the girl he’s loved from afar for years. If they were already in a relationship, I can see making some larger commitment; a promise ring or a proposal, say, but NOT for someone who is not his gf yet, trying to speed it up and get a commitment before he goes away. The more “normal” thing, IMO, is for an unattached young person to be enthused about the opportunity to meet new people in the other country. Not to try and squeeze out a commitment where one doesn’t exist, only to be overseas for half a year. 

I still find him, at best, odd, at worst, alarming. 

[scoutingmom]

I agree - I still see red flags.  He admitted to using the tracking app.  He envisions this big relationship, one big enough to last through a 6 month job in Europe.  The feeling that girls are throwing themselves at him.  The long handwritten letter.  Even most of his explanation still seems pretty creepy.  

Are you sure he is leaving for 6 months?