Amber Guyger

[gardenmom5]

14 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

Of course it’s showing up everywhere.  You are absolutely correct that it’s because it makes white people feel good.  Or white people can point to it and try to extract the same from other black people besides Mr. Jean’s brother.  

and when the creep shot and killed a number of amish girls in their school, and the families forgave him and embraced his wife  - it was "showing up everywhere".  When Chris Williams forgave the teen drunk driver who killed his eight months pregnant wife, and two of his three children (critically injuring the third) who were in the car with him - that showed up everywhere too.   - in those cases, everyone was white.

[SKL]

Well I hope the brother is not feeling attacked right now for forgiving.

Let each person grieve in the way that feels right to him/her.

[gardenmom5]

10 minutes ago, hippiemamato3 said:

She murdered a man in his own apartment. How was she not guilty? Additionally, 10 years for killing a man is not enough time, and the judge HUGGED her. I'm disgusted.

yeah... that one surprised me.  

and all the "oh, the sheriff's deputy was "comforting her" after the verdict.  - actually, if you watch the video, the (black) sheriff's deputy was looking for contraband in her hair.

she got off way too easy.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well I hope the brother is not feeling attacked right now for forgiving.

Let each person grieve in the way that feels right to him/her.

 

Oh, come on. He's been featured on every news broadcast on every major news network when his own mother's feelings (the mother of the victim) are buried. He's not being attacked. The public response is.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Arctic Mama said:

 I do not see that, not in any coverage I have followed.  There are MULTIPLE stories of sentences being issues and family members expressing forgiveness for the perpetrator.  On death row and in appeals too.  These get publicized as well and are not just shown in cases where someone is darker than someone else.  THAT is a biased viewing of the situation and assumes the worst of those who are talking about this.

My interest is as a human who seeks justice and a Christian who is humbled by the testimony here, and moved by the pain of the mother as well.  I cannot imagine what she feels, or what he feels, and have sympathy and love for them.  That’s really it.  I didn’t even know the skin color of anyone involved until two days ago.  The newspaper I read had no pictures.

Me either.  For some reason I thought the cop was black.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

and when the creep shot and killed a number of amish girls in their school, and the families forgave him and embraced his wife  - it was "showing up everywhere".  When Chris Williams forgave the teen drunk driver who killed his eight months pregnant wife, and two of his three children (critically injuring the third) who were in the car with him - that showed up everywhere too.   - in those cases, everyone was white.

 

I see this pattern with all kinds of unjust deaths which is why I edited my comment. I don't think it's necessarily a race issue but I do feel it more deeply in these issues. I think it's a 'public seeking to feel better' issue.

[LucyStoner]

6 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

and when the creep shot and killed a number of amish girls in their school, and the families forgave him and embraced his wife  - it was "showing up everywhere".  When Chris Williams forgave the teen drunk driver who killed his eight months pregnant wife, and two of his three children (critically injuring the third) who were in the car with him - that showed up everywhere too.   - in those cases, everyone was white.

 

That people like radical acts of forgiveness in general doesn’t mean that the reaction a lot of people are having about this specific one isn’t impacted by race.  

[LucyStoner]

7 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

 I do not see that, not in any coverage I have followed.  There are MULTIPLE stories of sentences being issues and family members expressing forgiveness for the perpetrator.  On death row and in appeals too.  These get publicized as well and are not just shown in cases where someone is darker than someone else.  THAT is a biased viewing of the situation and assumes the worst of those who are talking about this.

My interest is as a human who seeks justice and a Christian who is humbled by the testimony here, and moved by the pain of the mother as well.  I cannot imagine what she feels, or what he feels, and have sympathy and love for them.  That’s really it.  I didn’t even know the skin color of anyone involved until two days ago.  The newspaper I read had no pictures.

 

Since you were unaware of the races of the people involved until two days ago, you can’t claim to be following this story very closely.  Your ignorance of that fact is a function of privilege.   

[SKL]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

 

I see this pattern with all kinds of unjust deaths which is why I edited my comment. I don't think it's necessarily a race issue but I do feel it more deeply in these issues. I think it's a 'public seeking to feel better' issue.

Public seeking to feel better about what?

In the Amish example (so race can't come into it), it was just moving to think that the human soul, or some souls, are capable to that extent of spirituality.  It's a bit like the stories of a mom being able to lift a truck up to save her child.  I haven't been tested to the extent to know whether I would be able to forgive that, but if I could, how amazing it would be IMO.

[ktgrok]

I think both of you are right. 

On the one hand, it IS important to know that some people can and do manage to live out the VERY hard teaching of forgiveness. Similar to the amish who forgave the man who shot their school children. It's a good thought experiment if nothing else, to try to imagine being able to forgive like that, what does it mean, what does it take, how is it lived out, etc. 

On the other hand, there IS a tendency in the media, and among certain people, to focus WAY more on the one person forgiving, and then subtly use that to condemn the anger that many feel, or even dismiss the anger entirely. In a "see, it isn't THAT bad because he's black and he forgave!" It's another version of "see, that institution isn't racist because that one black guy works there" or "the police can't have racial bias because a few of them are black" or "i'm not a racist, my dentist is black!". 

That does NOT mean that everyone examine or interested in the brother's incredible act of forgiveness fall into that category. Not at all. But we should be careful and suspicious if the media coverage focuses more on the one person's forgiveness than the righteous anger of many (not just in this situation, but in general). 

It's similar to how a token woman's opinion will be used to dismiss the righteous demands/outrage of many other women in various situations. 

But again, that's a media issue, not pointing at people here. As a Christian I too am interested in the forgiveness expressed by the brother, as it is probably the hardest teaching in my religion, so something to look at and learn from. That doesn't mean I am not also looking at, learning from, and heartbroken over the anger, fear, and betrayal felt by people of color who fear for their lives on a daily basis. But I am going to be very suspicious of any news outlet that focuses solely on the feel good aspect of the story and not the very hard parts. (kind of like how many talk about feeling wary of any church that focuses just on the fun, feel good parts of Christianity and not the hard parts, you know?)

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

I see this pattern with all kinds of unjust deaths which is why I edited my comment. I don't think it's necessarily a race issue but I do feel it more deeply in these issues. I think it's a 'public seeking to feel better' issue.

Hmmm......I think it is more just a newsworthy event because it is so foreign to most people.  It is not natural to respond so quickly with forgiveness for something so horrible.  

[ktgrok]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Me either.  For some reason I thought the cop was black.

That multiple people are saying they didn't know the skin color of those involved is telling - that's a media bias of it's own. Leaving out a very relevant detail - that this was a black man shot by a white person with a history of racist remarks- is purposely shaping the narrative through omission. 

It's why color blindness is a bad idea. Pretending color doesn't matter makes no sense when it DOES still matter. 

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Public seeking to feel better about what?

In the Amish example (so race can't come into it), it was just moving to think that the human soul, or some souls, are capable to that extent of spirituality.  It's a bit like the stories of a mom being able to lift a truck up to save her child.  I haven't been tested to the extent to know whether I would be able to forgive that, but if I could, how amazing it would be IMO.

 

To feel better about the constant drumbeat of gun deaths, constant drum beat of violence, constant drumbeat of pain. Pain is hard to watch. It's hard to listen to. It's hard to be around. It kills the vibe. I find we generally try to paper over it (and like others to do so) as quickly as possible not for them but for us.

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Bingo.  This isn’t new, but it’s always meaningful and moving, especially when it is such an unusual reaction and one that can be tough to comprehend outside of supernatural grace and peace moving in the lives and hearts of those particular people.

chris Williams not only forgave the teen, he actually spoke out for him to be tried as a juvenile, not an adult.  he walked the walk.  as a Christian.   He received A LOT of criticism from people for "forgiving"  (so yeah, I hope this young man isn't being criticized).   I read Chris's book - it wasn't easy for him.  but he didn't want to go forward with bitterness and anger.  that's no way to live.

I've encountered people who were young adults during wwii.  they may or may not have served (  in Europe).  some, if they say anything about the Japanese - it's very racist.  my fil was a bataan death march survivor.  he survived the hell ships. he survived to be repatriated (very small percentage did).  - there were a few specific guards for whom he didn't shed a tear when they were hung for war crimes, but he harbored no ill will towards the Japanese as a people.  He also (and other reports I've read) - told the stories about  guards who turned their backs while the prisoners stole food - plausible deniability on their part.   (the guards put themselves at risk doing that.  they could have been shot for it.)

 

[LucyStoner]

His funeral was national news because there was a large march attached to it.  At the time it was very much in doubt that there would be any justice in this case because of the racial factors.  

Color blindness is racism.  

[gardenmom5]

11 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

That people like radical acts of forgiveness in general doesn’t mean that the reaction a lot of people are having about this specific one isn’t impacted by race.  

for some maybe, but it doesn't mean it is impacted by race for everyone

the young man is a Christian, and sought to follow the Christian admonition to forgive.  to insist it's only  about race, instead of because he's a Christian, actually demeans him.

at one time, the asb president at byu was black.  journalists from other locations kept asking him about being 'black at a white university".  he was constantly reproving them with "I'm a latter-day saint at a latter-day saint university".

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

for some maybe, but it doesn't mean it is impacted by race for everyone

the young man is a Christian, and sought to follow the Christian admonition to forgive.  to insist it's only  about race, instead of because he's a Christian, actually demeans him.

at one time, the asb president at byu was black.  journalists from other locations kept asking him about being 'black at a white university".  he was constantly reproving them with "I'm a latter-day saint at a latter-day saint university".

 

There are many Christian admonitions. Few get near as much public attention as this one. I will also add that, within the Black community (particularly younger people), there is an especially tense relationship with forgiveness given the use of scripture, particularly the concept of forgiveness, to control/minimize righteous anger.

ETA: I just had a flashback to an essay I wrote in college analyzing this exact phenomenon in Lorraine Hansberry's "A Raisin In The Sun". You'll see this divide loud and clear in this play.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

29 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

I think both of you are right. 

On the one hand, it IS important to know that some people can and do manage to live out the VERY hard teaching of forgiveness. Similar to the amish who forgave the man who shot their school children. It's a good thought experiment if nothing else, to try to imagine being able to forgive like that, what does it mean, what does it take, how is it lived out, etc. 

On the other hand, there IS a tendency in the media, and among certain people, to focus WAY more on the one person forgiving, and then subtly use that to condemn the anger that many feel, or even dismiss the anger entirely. In a "see, it isn't THAT bad because he's black and he forgave!" It's another version of "see, that institution isn't racist because that one black guy works there" or "the police can't have racial bias because a few of them are black" or "i'm not a racist, my dentist is black!". 

That does NOT mean that everyone examine or interested in the brother's incredible act of forgiveness fall into that category. Not at all. But we should be careful and suspicious if the media coverage focuses more on the one person's forgiveness than the righteous anger of many (not just in this situation, but in general). 

It's similar to how a token woman's opinion will be used to dismiss the righteous demands/outrage of many other women in various situations. 

But again, that's a media issue, not pointing at people here. As a Christian I too am interested in the forgiveness expressed by the brother, as it is probably the hardest teaching in my religion, so something to look at and learn from. That doesn't mean I am not also looking at, learning from, and heartbroken over the anger, fear, and betrayal felt by people of color who fear for their lives on a daily basis. But I am going to be very suspicious of any news outlet that focuses solely on the feel good aspect of the story and not the very hard parts. (kind of like how many talk about feeling wary of any church that focuses just on the fun, feel good parts of Christianity and not the hard parts, you know?)

the media likes to stir the pot - it sells newspapers (figuratively today at any rate.).  warm fuzzy feel good stories dont' sell newspapers.

forgiveness is a subject to which I've paid attention, as I've sought, and fought, over decades, to forgive my grandmother her psychological abuse.  I've engaged in a lot of introspection about the subject.  so I can really admire, and respect, someone who can forgive something so horrific.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

the media likes to stir the pot - it sells newspapers (figuratively today at any rate.).  warm fuzzy feel good stories dont' sell newspapers.

forgiveness is a subject to which I've paid attention, as I've sought, and fought, over decades, to forgive my grandmother her psychological abuse.  I've engaged in a lot of introspection about the subject.  so I can really admire, and respect, someone who can forgive something so horrific.

 

As far as I can tell, the elevation of Botham Jean's brother is media-driven but the criticism of the coverage is coming, almost exclusively, from black friends and family on my FB feed. It's probably not something you'd be aware of or sensitive to if you don't have lots of these people in your orbit. They aren't stirring the pot. They are expressing a different view IN RESPONSE TO the media coverage.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

There are many Christian admonitions. Few get near as much public attention as this one. I will also add that, within the Black community (particularly younger people), there is an especially tense relationship with forgiveness given the use of scripture, particularly the concept of forgiveness, to control/minimize righteous anger.

ETA: I just had a flashback to an essay I wrote in college analyzing this exact phenomenon in Lorraine Hansberry's "A Raisin In The Sun". You'll see this divide loud and clear in this play.

I think how it is perceived really varies by which "flavor" of Christianity one follows and is dominant in the surrounding local culture.

I know some are more likely to use religion as a weapon/means of manipulation.  (my grandmother did.).  I don't consider those versions as being particularly Christlike.

[LucyStoner]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

the media likes to stir the pot - it sells newspapers (figuratively today at any rate.).  warm fuzzy feel good stories dont' sell newspapers.

forgiveness is a subject to which I've paid attention, as I've sought, and fought, over decades, to forgive my grandmother her psychological abuse.  I've engaged in a lot of introspection about the subject.  so I can really admire, and respect, someone who can forgive something so horrific.

 

I can admire that forgiveness.  Having offered a similar forgiveness myself (as a survivor of child rape) I also feel that it can change over time.  There was a time that I felt I needed to forgive him to set myself free and I felt that I had forgiven him for a long time.   Now, I feel like I forgave him then but that it really wasn’t and shouldn’t be the way I used to think about forgiveness (very much in a Catholic paradigm).  My paradigm has shifted.  I don’t feel I owe anyone anything WRT forgiving the man who perpetrated that violence towards me.  I also don’t feel like it’s unresolved or I am hung up on it.  I don’t know that 39 year old me forgives him.  19 year old me did.  39 year old me wants the whole cycle to perpetuates sexual violence against children burned to the ground.  

[Sneezyone]

Just now, gardenmom5 said:

I think how it is perceived really varies by which "flavor" of Christianity one follows and is dominant in the surrounding local culture.

I know some are more likely to use religion as a weapon/means of manipulation.  (my grandmother did.).  I don't consider those versions as being particularly Christlike.

 

Maybe so but they claim the mantle of 'Christian' just the same.

 

[SKL]

37 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

To feel better about the constant drumbeat of gun deaths, constant drum beat of violence, constant drumbeat of pain. Pain is hard to watch. It's hard to listen to. It's hard to be around. It kills the vibe. I find we generally try to paper over it (and like others to do so) as quickly as possible not for them but for us.

Hmm.  I don't think this is the result.  It is only because the loss was so horrible that the forgiveness would move anyone.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, SKL said:

Hmm.  I don't think this is the result.  It is only because the loss was so horrible that the forgiveness would move anyone.

 

That's kind of the point I was making. The real story is too painful.

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

 

As far as I can tell, the elevation of Botham Jean's brother is media-driven but the criticism of the coverage is coming, almost exclusively, from black friends and family on my FB feed. It's probably not something you'd be aware of or sensitive to if you don't have lots of these people in your orbit. They aren't stirring the pot. They are expressing a different view IN RESPONSE TO the media coverage.

I haven't followed the brother's story, other than the initial one.  I think it's ridiculous anyone is using his forgiveness to claim the family forgave her.  he's one person.  (people are individuals. hmm - maybe it's that autistic brain.  MRI's have demonstrated no discernable brain synapse pattern among autistics, while NT's generally fall into one of three patterns).    

 again - the media loves to stir the pot. (and they deserve whatever pushback they get for doing so. sometimes the deserve more than they get.)  I will be honest - I have pretty much stopped getting information from US media sources.  they engage in too much pot stirring for me. 

[Sneezyone]

For those of you who aren't privy to these kinds of perspectives, I am sharing *some* of what has crossed my FB feed in the last 24 hours...

When I said that the brother is a member of the family, not *the* family...

Quote

You can forgive in private at home or on an Investigation Discovery documentary 10 years from now. Not in front of them where they can take it as license to keep excusing and doing what they do. Elizabeth Smart lived but you sure as hell don’t see her parents or siblings fawning over the man who kidnapped and raped her. We don’t know if they forgave or not. And we don’t need to.

 

Quote

turn the other cheek doesn’t mean that you let people get away with whatever they feel like doing. It means that you personally shouldn’t seek revenge. It in no way means that there should not be punishment. Religion has been used as a tool to brainwash Black people into seeing themselves as inferior to whites for centuries. This fool acts like he was taught from a Slave Bible.

 

Quote

 

From Onnesha Demerson Williams:

About the hug and the constant lamenting on the violation of our humanity:

I’m not mad at you young sir for relieving your burden. I don’t blame you for exercising your faith and intercession for your late brother’s mission to offer up Christ. That was the presence of his life in motion even in death.

What burns is the constant expectation to always value whiteness more - even in our time of lamentation, in our time of terror, our time of grief, and our repeated times of injustice.

When Botham lie dying and afraid, his blackness had no shelter, no mercy, no comfort, not even in his own home. He didn’t get a hug, he was left to waste, like he was nothing, a nobody. The priority: protect whiteness.

When his place was being ransacked, when his name was being smeared, when his mom cried from her heart and womb to defend his life, when his blackness was out on trial long before his murderer ever was, the priority: protect whiteness.

To hold our breath again, and again, and again, and again, to keep witnessing justice be miscarried. No life, no fruit, just empty promises of the constitution that owned us. 

Then finally a newborn cry of a rare guilty verdict to signify that maybe, just maybe we would be the priority - only to find ourselves fighting against the ever so sucking wind and suffocating force that is whiteness.

Whiteness can’t be racist even when she said she is, she has minority friends, she is a great person, whiteness saves black addicts even when she kills black Christians, whiteness is a savior even when she expects violence and death to anyone who dares get in her way, even when whiteness is in the wrong (apartment). Please don’t be mean to whiteness. Please be gentle, caring, and kind. 

I’m not mad at you young sir. Be obedient. Forgive and relieve your burden. Give your yoke to Christ. Let your brother rest easy. I’m not mad at you! Most of us who are mad, aren’t. Right now, I loathe the selfishness of whiteness.

My priority: protect blackness

 

This sentiment is very common.

[Sneezyone]

18 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

https://www.disrn.com/2019/10/03/judge-gives-amber-guyger-her-personal-bible-after-sentencing-her-for-murdering-botham-jean/

I’d argue that there was something going on in that court room that had very little to do with white and black.  But of course, this is my real bias - not a whiteness filter, but as a believer. I’ll cop to that.  

Yes, there was. Something wholly inappropriate to many people. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/10/03/judge-botham-jeans-brother-hugged-amber-guyger-igniting-debate-about-forgiveness-race/

[Sneezyone]

14 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Except again, not about race.  I believe people would twist that every which way, though, rather than just taking the stated words on the merits and with the best assumption possible about their motives. 

Taking it for the words said, I’m glad she did it.  When I first heard about the hug I was a bit confused, but seeing the order of events for how all this went down it was much less dodgy than first appeared. If a murderer walks away from this with eternal hope I’d be thrilled.  It would be the only good thing to come of a horrific situation that should have never happened. I feel the same about David Berkowitz.

Read the article. It is not nearly so simple as you would like to believe. Botham Jean isn’t the only victim here and the outsize emphasis on saving her soul at the expense of losing many in the black community is penny wise and pound foolish.

ETA: It is refreshing to see these discussions that many do not see elevated within mainstream media. Not so long ago they would have been completely ignored.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

The WaPo paywall is a joke. Just stop the loading as soon as the words appear and the paywall won't show up.

[Sneezyone]

Well I’m sharing this too, because it is also worth a read, no matter how much eye makeup is lost. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2019/10/03/white-christians-do-not-cheapen-hug-message-forgiveness-botham-jeans-brother/?tid=sm_fb

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[LucyStoner]

4 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

There was a march and public funeral?  News to me.  Again with the racism - harp on it all you want, but it pretty much just shuts down discussion to continually point to people like me who just weren’t aware and imply all sorts of lovely things about our bias or situations or guilt or whatever.

There are so many more pressing concerns in most people’s lives than assigning endless guilt in the woke olympics.  This was a murder, a terrible one with no justification and extra horrifying because it was in his own home, which is supposed to be a safe, sacred space.  That, and the fact that it was a cop who should have known better, were my only exposure to this before a brief trial note and then the events around sentencing.  It ain’t color blindness, unless that’s what they’re calling “keeping one’s sphere of concern close to the size of one’s sphere of control”.

 

The only person whose racism and racial bias I can impact is my own and, to a degree, my kids via the messages I impart to them.  I don’t think that anyone is totally above it TBH.  Research shows even LEOs of color have implicit bias.   Institutional racism doesn’t cease to exist because suddenly there are a few minorities elevated to positions of power in the institution.  

I truly believe *no one* in our culture is above implicit bias.  White people, no matter how “woke” live our lives with a privilege we didn’t earn from that.  We simply do.  This isn’t an insult or an accusation.  It’s not a performative pronouncement for any woke Olympics.  It’s merely a statement of fact.  I can’t change it or make it go away just because it is wrong, disturbing or scares me for my nieces and nephews.  

I’m trying to picture a black man being hugged and given a bible for killing a white woman with a mitigating factor of confusion and mistake and it’s not something that I can see happening.  I think being both white and a woman do change how people react to her tears.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[katilac]

2 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I think being both white and a woman do change how people react to her tears.  

And young, and attractive. 

[Corraleno]

Those who insist on viewing Brandt Jean's hug as a simple interaction between two individuals that has nothing to do with race are missing the cultural context in which it occurred and the way the media (and various public figures) are exploiting this image. When a black man's forgiveness of the racist white cop who murdered his brother is held up as an ideal of kindness and courage and decency, while at the same time those who protest and march in anger are portrayed as cop-hating "thugs," it sends a clear message: this is how "good" blacks behave in the face of racism and murder. 

All over social media there are white people responding to this photo with sentiments about how "healing" it is, and if only we could all look beyond race and extend each other grace and forgiveness, things would be so much better — as if the anger and outrage that gave rise to BLM and other protests are unnecessary and counterproductive. Slavery is ancient history, segregation ended in the last century, if ya'll would just forgive and forget and behave yourselves instead of acting like angry thugs, then we as a country could put this racism stuff behind us. What makes that sentiment even more galling in the context of the Guyger trial is that this is exactly the excuse that has allowed so many racist cops to go unpunished: if the black victim had just behaved himself, then the cop wouldn't have been forced to kill him. 

Brandt Jean may not see himself as a symbol of black deference and forgiveness in the face of white racism, but that is how his gesture is being used, and responded to, in the media. White people insisting that since the racial subtext isn't visible to them, it must not exist, are reinforcing the very message this image is being exploited to convey: if black people would just stop being so angry and making everything about race, life would be better for everyone.

 

[MercyA]

I think it's very possible that Guygur was--at least subconsciously--itching to shoot a black man at some point. I've personally known of more than one young person who was *openly disappointed* that they didn't kill another human being while in the military. It actually is a desire for some people, even seemingly respectable ones. It's hard for me to wrap my head around, but racism and xenophobia certainly play a part.

I feel zero sympathy for Guygur, but I still hope that she comes to faith, finds forgiveness, and publicly repents for her actions and attitudes. 

I see righteousness and beauty in Brandt Jean's forgiveness and admire him as a brother in Christ. It would have never occurred to me that anyone would take issue with his public forgiveness (or more specifically the media's coverage of it), but I appreciate those of you who have taken the time to explain it.

Edited October 3, 2019 by MercyA

[Terabith]

I take no issue with his public forgiveness, and I hope his brother finds healing for himself in that forgiveness.  But, I feel really icky about the media coverage of it.  It feels tacky and inappropriate and minimizing and that's not even getting into the many deep racial issues that cannot be separated from this case.  

[Corraleno]

33 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I take no issue with his public forgiveness, and I hope his brother finds healing for himself in that forgiveness.  But, I feel really icky about the media coverage of it.  It feels tacky and inappropriate and minimizing and that's not even getting into the many deep racial issues that cannot be separated from this case.  

Exactly. After so many murders and so many miscarriages of justice, finally a racist cop has been held accountable for the murder of an innocent black man — and we went from "guilty" to "forgiven" in like 30 seconds. Oh ok, now that that's taken care of, and poor weeping Amber goes off to serve her very short sentence, we can all move on. 

[Tree Frog]

56 minutes ago, Terabith said:

I take no issue with his public forgiveness, and I hope his brother finds healing for himself in that forgiveness.  But, I feel really icky about the media coverage of it.  It feels tacky and inappropriate and minimizing and that's not even getting into the many deep racial issues that cannot be separated from this case.  

This is something that, in my mind, should have been private. It is between two people, not an entire country, and should not have been in the media at all. 

I wonder if the judge gave Mr. Jean's mom or other family a hug. Seems to me she and they are the more deserving people. 

I'm a little confused why the media and some of the people in the courtroom seemed to be fawning all over the killer. In my mind, if anyone should be fawned over, it should be the family. If they don't want to be in the public eye, then leave them alone, but don't choose the defendant to focus on instead. I'm a little disgusted that she only received 10 years. It seems way too little for the death she caused and the selfishness attitude she displayed.

[Corraleno]

13 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

But who is saying she is forgiven?  She is still guilty of a horrific crime, whether an individual forgave her or not.  She is not absolved of anything, and her sentence is indeed too short.  What was said to her changes approximately none of that. 

 

“I think he showed with his grace and forgiveness how we should heal,’’ defense attorney Toby Shook told the Today show’s Gabe Gutierrez. “And I hope that people who were upset by the verdict will follow his example.”

 

This sentiment is being repeated again and again all over social media: This is how black victims of white violence should behave. Stop being angry and "follow his example" — embrace and forgive the racists who murder your brothers and fathers and sons. The responsibility for healing falls to the victims.

It's astonishing to me how quickly the media pivoted from justice for the victim to sympathy for the murderer.

[SKL]

Well ... for the record, before I commented on the forgiveness, I had only seen one line on facebook about it - just a factual statement.  I mentioned I wasn't keeping up with the case.  I don't watch TV.  I wasn't seeing all this spin you guys are talking about.  I just heard that the brother forgave the killer.  And yes, I was moved by that.  I also mentioned I think she is guilty and has no excuse.  My comments had nothing to do with race.  But the rest of the thread became about how my reaction was basically a return to slavery.

I agree that the media is ridiculous in how it covers just about everything.  Presumably this was no exception.  I wouldn't know since I have not been seeing any of the news coverage of this situation at all.

[LucyStoner]

 

43 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I've skipped out on a lot of this thread because of the turn it took, but I saw this video tonight and wanted to post it here. If you have only read about the victim impact statement and the judge hugging AG and giving her a Bible, and the circus they managed to turn that into, I would encourage you to watch the actual moment with your own eyes. Don't just read about it. (Sorry if it's a repeat and someone else already posted)

https://www.khou.com/video/news/special-reports/botham-jean/judge-tammy-kemp-gives-amber-guyger-her-personal-bible/287-09c1bd7a-ef75-4ae3-9eee-f7b9820eae67?jwsource=cl

 

At the end of the video you posted (I watched it again to make sure I was remembering right), the narrator explicitly contrasts the actions of the judge and the brother to shots of the protest outside.  As though there's something wrong or less noble about people demanding justice. That moment spoke volumes to me and leaves me with a very heavy heart and a reminder of what white supremacy is trying to extract from black people.  As did the very audible sobs of the rest of the family coming from off screen.  

The brother can say whatever he wants where ever he wants to say it.  I actually agree with the sentiment expressed by the judge (that one moment doesn't make anyone irredeemable) even if I don't share her faith.  But the extraordinary actions of two individuals in a specifc situation should not be used, however sentimentally, to shut up the very real, and VERY JUSTIFED emotions of people living with the fear that their kid is the next Tamir Rice or their sister is the next Charleena Lyles.  

Edited October 4, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Corraleno]

42 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I've skipped out on a lot of this thread because of the turn it took, but I saw this video tonight and wanted to post it here. If you have only read about the victim impact statement and the judge hugging AG and giving her a Bible, and the circus they managed to turn that into, I would encourage you to watch the actual moment with your own eyes. Don't just read about it. (Sorry if it's a repeat and someone else already posted)

https://www.khou.com/video/news/special-reports/botham-jean/judge-tammy-kemp-gives-amber-guyger-her-personal-bible/287-09c1bd7a-ef75-4ae3-9eee-f7b9820eae67?jwsource=cl

 

39 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah, that is what is going around in the areas I watch. Thankfully. Also now my eyes are leaking again.  

 

OMG, did you guys actually watch that video ALL the way to the end??? Did you see that, after showing Brandt Jean and the judge hugging and comforting Guyger, the narrator said that this touching moment "was in stark contrast to the chanting going on outside" — and the video cuts to an angry black woman yelling "there ain't gonna be no peace until justice is done!" and a group of black protestors outside the courthouse.

That is EXACTLY what I'm talking about, that you claim isn't present in any of the media you're seeing!  Look at these nice, educated, well-spoken black people hugging and comforting the poor crying white murderer — be like them, not like those angry, strident protestors. 

Seriously, you could not have found a more perfect illustration of exactly what I'm talking about if you'd specifically gone looking for it. And the fact that you didn't even see what was right in front of your eyes only proves my point.

[Joker]

When I first saw the brother forgive and the hug, I was touched. I watched my own mother do the same thing with the person responsible for the death of my dad and brother. It was a life changing experience. My mom did so in a very private setting with only those who were okay with it though. Those in my family who weren't at that stage yet were not there and didn't have to see it. They definitely didn't feel measured by it. I think it would be very difficult to have it displayed all over the place as the right thing to do and what everyone should be doing. I do also think there is so much more at play here in regards to race. I may not understand what it all is but I can't ignore it exists. 

I was very glad she was found guilty and was sentenced. 

[Corraleno]

21 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Again, you can assume all the motives of me or any other viewer you want.  It doesn’t necessarily make it true. If a media outlet was trying to land a point and it didn’t work, does it bear mentioning?  The WP, NYT, Fox, CNN, et al. try to do that all the time.  That’s what media does, and it doesn’t mean the viewers are culpable for the narrative choices of the reporters and broadcasters trying to manipulate people.  

The fact that you were personally oblivious to the point the narrator was making doesn't mean it "didn't work." It came through loud and clear to many others and it follows a pattern that has been repeated all over social and news media related to this case. A lot of people are angry that an extraordinary and very personal act of compassion has been exploited and used by white media as an example of how victims should act in response to racism and murder. People are angry that this small and all-too-rare victory for the black community has been co-opted and turned into an object lesson in "good behavior" for those who have been, and will continue to be, victims of police violence. And yes that absolutely "bears mentioning" even if some would prefer to just focus on the feel-good bits and ignore the ugliness.

[Kate in Arabia]

I think the judge went way over the line.  The case isn't even over, what if there's an appeal or other activity where she could be called upon to act in an official capacity? How is she going to claim to be 100% unbiased now? And speaking as a non-Christian, to have a judge proselytizing from the bench... well, I guess some people of that faith may find it inspiring, but I feel the opposite...

 

Edited October 4, 2019 by Kate in Arabia

[TravelingChris]

On 10/2/2019 at 3:05 PM, LucyStoner said:

Even leaving aside other factors, it seems to me that she has a fundamental obligation to ascertain *where she is* before reacting with lethal force.  I have twice walked in to my home to find people there I didn’t expect to see.  This happens sometimes in densely populated areas with apartments and identical townhouses and tract housing.  There are so many steps between WTF are you doing here and “I will now kill you”.  

I have a hard time thinking that step one on thinking she was finding a white woman in her apartment would have been “kill her”.

Yes, it would be reasonable to pull a gun on a person you find in your house sitting on the couch and warn to get out. But why would you enter such a house if you are LE without calling for back up?  

I am a former L E officer and I  believe bad cops going bad things against policy and  against the law should be convicted.

[TravelingChris]

On 10/2/2019 at 4:31 PM, Katy said:

 

Yeah, but the training to not pull a gun unless someone is going to die still holds.  I mean I guess I'm just guessing from a child of a Florida cop perspective, maybe Texas is totally different.  They definitely handle police involved shootings very differently.

Wrong. It is to prevent harm from happening to someone. If one runs a Ross a rapist about to rape someone or some guy is about to start chopping off fingers of someone, they are certainly allowed to shoot.

[Aura]

3 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Wrong. It is to prevent harm from happening to someone. If one runs a Ross a rapist about to rape someone or some guy is about to start chopping off fingers of someone, they are certainly allowed to shoot.

 I interpreted what Katy said as meaning if the trained person pulls a gun, then someone is going to die, and whatever is happening is worth killing over. Stopping someone from committing rape or torture would, IMO, justify lethal force, or the act is so egregious that it's worth preventing even if it means killing.

[Scarlett]

6 hours ago, Kate in Arabia said:

I think the judge went way over the line.  The case isn't even over, what if there's an appeal or other activity where she could be called upon to act in an official capacity? How is she going to claim to be 100% unbiased now? And speaking as a non-Christian, to have a judge proselytizing from the bench... well, I guess some people of that faith may find it inspiring, but I feel the opposite...

 

I thought it was weird too. 

[Scarlett]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

The assumptions that we all have that the anger of black people is somehow scary and dangerous is so engrained in us that we can't even recognize the bias. And the contrast is the docile "Magical Negro." 

I keep hearing white people pontificating on this subject, "I think..." "I think..." "I think..." Like it matters at all what we think. We should just shut up and listen to African American voices. 

And how privileged are we to not pay attention to this case. "Oh, I don't have television so I wasn't following it." It sure is nice for us that we don't need to follow the news isn't it? But that doesn't stop people from having opinions, right? 

All of the people sharing these videos and commenting about what a great Christian the brother is and how we should strive to follow his example - that's the end of their thinking about this case. It's all wrapped up in a nice little bow. Makes them feel good inside. And the next police shooting? It'll be, "why can't those protestors be more like Brandt Jean or MLK?" While they do absolutely nothing to protect another black kid from being shot by a cop. And that fact that most can't even begin to comprehend the other side demonstrates how messed up the white church is in this country. No doubt some are thinking - oh no, not my church. We have some black people and aren't they nice. 

 

Not everyone thinks like the bolded above.  I know I don't.  But I doubt I am typical white woman so, there is that.

[SanDiegoMom]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

 

And how privileged are we to not pay attention to this case. "Oh, I don't have television so I wasn't following it." It sure is nice for us that we don't need to follow the news isn't it? But that doesn't stop people from having opinions, right? 

 

I agree.  It's very easy to have an opinion about something, but it takes a lot more effort to have an informed opinion.  But it's the uniformed or the too quickly informed opinions that dominate most present day conversations.