Amber Guyger

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

my dd lives in fort worth.  they have a different model for their police dept, that actually allows them to do things differently than most large cities.

I'm glad she was turned down by ft. worth.

 

this just in:

there is video of mr. jean's brother hugging her afterwards (the sentence was rendered?) saying he forgives her.  he's a much bigger person than is she...  maybe the next ten years will inspire her to give up her racism. 

 

If forgiving her helps him, that is great.  I can only assume that his view is not shared by the whole family or by the AA community in Dallas who has to live with how their police department works.  The smear thing they did towards Mr. Jean would violate not only the families trust but people who live there and should be able to trust their local PD.  They also apparently didn’t execute the search warrant for her apartment like they were supposed to.  

[LucyStoner]

9 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Yep.  All reportedly true.  I should have said that her actions following the shooting were not as they were being portrayed here.  By citing her conversation with the 911 operator (saying she was tired, etc.), I just meant that she wasn't necessarily a cold-hearted woman who shot a man and a few minutes later was sexting with her married partner.   

Yes, she exchanged racist texts with other police officers, which is wrong.  Inexcusable!  But she also showed kindness to an African American woman whom she ticketed for being in a crack house and possessing drug paraphernalia.  Yes, DPD has not behaved very nicely, which is odd to me.  I know policemen have a reputation for protecting their own, but the DPD chief is African American.  Perhaps this went on without her knowledge.  She was on medical leave for a while...

I don't know that I agree that she wouldn't have shot your husband and one of your sons (if your sons are grown) if she had mistakenly entered your apartment.  I'm assuming that you mean she wouldn't have shot anyone because your family is white.  I'm not convinced it's that simple.

 

I’ve lived my life as a white woman with a black brother.  Which made me very clear on how privileged I really am in this culture.  I take care of my black and Hispanic niece and nephew a lot.  I’ve seen the difference between how most white people react to me vs, my brother and it’s really colored my view that yes, it is very often exactly that simple.  I’ve been through traffic stops where the minute I am seen the entire tone and manner of the officer changes.  We went through moves (homes, churches, schools) where people were all friendly until they see my brother.  When you hear galloping, you expect horses and not zebras.  It’s usually just not as complicated or nuanced as a lot of people want to believe it is.  Race is very much the most likely current in a situation like this.  White people just get the benefit of the doubt more in general and a lot more than black men do.   

Edited October 2, 2019 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

24 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I think they handed the case over to the Texas Rangers within 24 hours, didn't they? In which case any thing like that would have been on the Rangers- the the DPD Chief, as mentioned above is AA. So I don't feel like she was orchestrating a smear for those reasons. I don't live in Dallas though, so......I don't know community perception that way. 

 

The news stories I read seemed to indicate that the community felt it was a pretty par for the course tactic to try and make him look bad after he’d been shot.  It was Dallas PD and not the rangers that searched his apartment and made that detail public.  It’s certainly not an unfamiliar tactic.  

Institutional racism doesn’t go away merely because there are some black people in leadership, even in very high roles.  

Edited October 2, 2019 by LucyStoner

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

1 hour ago, DoraBora said:

I'm so sorry you've had these bitter experiences, and I'm sure they have colored your view.  I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume she would have shot a white man in the same situation.

 

A few years ago, I recall reading a story about two escaped convicts. Both white.  They murdered someone (possibly more than one someone) in order to escape and their prior conviction list was scary as shit.  They were on the running end of a multi-state manhunt.  They did not come quietly when they were found.  They attacked the officers.  

They both came back into custody very much alive and not even having been beaten up.  

Do not underestimate the power of not being a black man when you encounter LEOs.  

Have you seen those videos of white and black people trying to unlock a bicycle in a park?   

My older son is not fully grown but he’s the same age Tamir Rice would be had he not been killed. 16.  

The officer who shot and killed Tamir, who has now been fired from TWO different police departments was recently hired to work in a third.  The chief said he “deserved a second chance”.  I think about that a lot when I see my very white 16 year old hanging out with my black 13 year old nephew.  I’m not off the mark in worrying more about my nephew’s potential interactions with the police than I do about my sons.  We registered with smart 911 so dispatchers are aware of autism.  There’s not a “don’t shoot me because I’m brown” option for Smart911.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, DoraBora said:

I don't doubt those dangers.  Not at all.  It is tragic.  Terrible.

That doesn't mean she wouldn't have shot a white man in the same circumstances.

 

Very little about her story makes a lot of sense.  That she wasn’t at least partially motivated to shoot first and ask questions later because of his race would make even less sense.  She sent very obviously racist messages and disparaged working with AA cops.  If the man sitting there was someone she saw her partner in or her brother or whatever, I think she would have taken the time to say WTF are you doing here and listen to him as if dawned on her that she was not in her apartment.  Neither of us can know for sure but her words, deeds and actions aren’t ones that seem to merit the benefit of the doubt for me.  Yes, I bring a bias but it’s informed by a lot of cold hard truth about our culture.  

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[ktgrok]

Another aspect brought up in testimony was that she admitted she heard him in the apartment BEFORE going in. So she could have stayed outside, knowing there was a person in "her" apartment. But she didn't. She went in guns blazing and at BEST killed an unarmed man for breaking and entering, when she had no need to endanger herself. 

[LucyStoner]

Botham Jean’s mother raised her hands to the heavens and praised god for the guilty verdict.  I’m not going to fault the prosecutors for expressing relief and joy at helping his mother get the verdict she was apparently praying for. 

While I agree there are “no winners”, I simply can’t create a false equivalency between the Jean family’s loss and the pain and suffering of the Guyger family.  She’s going to prison for a few years at least.  She will be ALIVE and free by the time she is my age (I’m about to turn 40.) She has lost her job.  She has to live with her actions.  But she’s alive and she will be out in time to start a family (should she want to).  She will be free for most of what is left of her natural born life.  He’s dead.  His life’s work had barely started, any potential new family members he might have created will never exist.  

Pretending that somehow she acted without regard to race is part of what perpetuates racism.  I’m not going to dismiss the gender ramifications but he was sitting down on a couch eating ice cream and her story about him coming at her changed.  

People usually mean the racist shit they say a lot more than they claim to when claiming it was just a joke or they didn’t know.  I’m past the point of excuses for this stuff.  

Dismissing the larger community’s cry for justice?  What would you being doing if it were your son and people who looked like your son were not infrequently treated unfairly or even killed when just minding their own business?  I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t say it happened in a vacuum and had zip zilch zero to do with the historical and present reality facing your son before he was killed.   

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Jean in Newcastle]

The news said that she could be eligible for parole in 5  years. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

 

If forgiving her helps him, that is great.  I can only assume that his view is not shared by the whole family or by the AA community in Dallas who has to live with how their police department works.  The smear thing they did towards Mr. Jean would violate not only the families trust but people who live there and should be able to trust their local PD.  They also apparently didn’t execute the search warrant for her apartment like they were supposed to.  

I found it interesting/surprising.  while I think forgiveness is extremely important ( not allowing someone to live in your head)  - I do not think it absolves someone of being tried in court, convicted - and serving time.  That's part of making restitution. (yes - I know it's not possible.  he's dead and she's not.)  that's on her.

I do think it speaks highly of mr. jeans brother's character.

had I been on that jury, I would have voted to convict. I also would have sentenced her to more time had I been the judge.

sadly - I can think of too many cases when a search warrant wasn't executed in a timely manner - even when the victim was white (frequently in DV cases.)

[LucyStoner]

42 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Another aspect brought up in testimony was that she admitted she heard him in the apartment BEFORE going in. So she could have stayed outside, knowing there was a person in "her" apartment. But she didn't. She went in guns blazing and at BEST killed an unarmed man for breaking and entering, when she had no need to endanger herself. 

 

Or even taken a second to figure out that she wasn’t looking at her door or mat.  Start noticing some details.  I live next door to three identical doors.  If I think someone is in my apartment I can’t imagine not starting to clue into more details while I stay outside.  Where’s my milk box?  Where’s my orange door mat?  Where’s all the marks my sons have made on the door with their dirty bikes and grubby play shoes?  As my husband said “that’s when you notice that you may be in a beige Corolla but it’s not YOUR BEIGE COROLLA”, referencing the time I got in and very nearly drove off in someone else’s car.  This was back before electronic keys and my key started a car that was not mine.  😳 What clued me into my mistake?  The radio didn’t come on to my preset and in the rear view mirror there was a conspicuous lack of a RF Britax car seat.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Corraleno]

36 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Writing about how despicable Ms. Guyger is, or how racist she is, or how heartless she is, as if she isn't a damaged human also, bothers me.  I'm very, very sad for Mr. Jean, and for his family, but I am also sad for her.  There are no winners here today.

Oh yes there were winners: the lawyers who fought hard for justice in a case where justice is very rarely served; the mother who has some small amount of peace knowing that her son's life was seen to have value and his death was not simply dismissed as an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect of "normal" policing; and the African American community who have seen so many of their sons and brothers and fathers murdered in cold blood with no accountability. 

I'm not the least bit sad that an avowed racist who murdered an innocent black man sitting in his own home watching TV is going to prison for a mere 10 years. She's freaking lucky that's all she got.

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

Or even taken a second to figure out that she wasn’t looking at her door or mat.  Start noticing some details.  I live next door to three identical doors.  If I think someone is in my apartment I can’t imagine not starting to clue into more details while I stay outside.  Where’s my milk box?  Where’s my orange door mat?  Where’s all the marks my sons have made on the door with their dirty bikes and grubby play shoes?  As my husband said “that’s when you notice that you may be in a beige Corolla but it’s not YOUR BEIGE COROLLA”, referencing the time I got in and very nearly drove off in someone else’s car.  This was back before electronic keys and my key started a car that was not mine.  😳 What clued me into my mistake?  The radio didn’t come on to my preset and in the rear view mirror there was a conspicuous lack of a RF Britax car seat.  

 Dh got a specific license plate holder just so he could tell which was his car or not.  today - I walked right past my new car (and thinking to myself how someone else had a car like mine) because I don't usually park there.

there have been some stories like that.  the one that sticks most, is a kid took mom's van and went across the state line to the store to get a silver dollar for younger sibling's tooth fairy account.   then he got in a van and drove home.  . . . it wasn't his mom's van.   he did get pulled over because it had been reported stolen.  the fact it was the same make and color as his mom's, and the key fit - there were no charges. 

though I did hear one of a woman lent her car to her mom - and her mom came back with someone else's car.

[LucyStoner]

I feel like that white America (of which I know I am part of) is gaslighting the African American community.  “Well, HOW do you KNOW it was racism?” when anyone with the least bit of experience can see when there’s racism in the mix.  I’ve seen a bit of if up close and personal but I still can barely begin to imagine how gd exhausting it is to live with that every day.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[LucyStoner]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

 Dh got a specific license plate holder just so he could tell which was his car or not.  today - I walked right past my new car (and thinking to myself how someone else had a car like mine) because I don't usually park there.

there have been some stories like that.  the one that sticks most, is a kid took mom's van and went across the state line to the store to get a silver dollar for younger sibling's tooth fairy account.   then he got in a van and drove home.  . . . it wasn't his mom's van.   he did get pulled over because it had been reported stolen.  the fact it was the same make and color as his mom's, and the key fit - there were no charges. 

though I did hear one of a woman lent her car to her mom - and her mom came back with someone else's car.

 

I just learned it’s dangerous to buy beige Toyotas.  Now we have dark blue.  Waaaaay less common in the parking lot.  The electronic keys must help too- it used to be there were only a certain number of lock possibilities.  

[gardenmom5]

32 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

 

Or even taken a second to figure out that she wasn’t looking at her door or mat.  Start noticing some details.  I live next door to three identical doors.  If I think someone is in my apartment I can’t imagine not starting to clue into more details while I stay outside.  Where’s my milk box?  Where’s my orange door mat?  Where’s all the marks my sons have made on the door with their dirty bikes and grubby play shoes?  As my husband said “that’s when you notice that you may be in a beige Corolla but it’s not YOUR BEIGE COROLLA”, referencing the time I got in and very nearly drove off in someone else’s car.  This was back before electronic keys and my key started a car that was not mine.  😳 What clued me into my mistake?  The radio didn’t come on to my preset and in the rear view mirror there was a conspicuous lack of a RF Britax car seat.  

her lack of situational awareness makes me wonder how she passed the screening to be a cop.

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

18 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I would never criticize his mother, whatever she does.  I suppose I'm cynical enough to think the prosecutors see this as an opportunity for personal advancement.  (Any why not, I guess...)

I don't think the two families' situations are at all equivalent, but Ms. Guyger's family is in a sad situation, too.  Someone here pointed out that she probably won't survive prison.  Of course I know that she is at least alive.

Re:  "Dismissing the larger community's cry for justice":  I don't think this particular case is necessarily about the police treating racial minorities unfairly or white people treating minorities unfairly.  I know that happens, but I'm not sure she shot this guy because he was black.

 

I think it is highly unlikely she will die in prison.  She’s young and physically healthy.  She will be incarnated in a women’s prison.  She will not be approaching the end of her natural born life at the end of her sentence.  She can expect to get out in a relatively short time and she will undoubtedly be assisting in her appeals so it’s not like she has a huge incentive to commit suicide. Contrary to “a very special episode” of Orange is the New Black, murders of women in prison is a rare enough phenomenon there’s not great data collected on it.  I’ve worked for prison organizations, visited a women’s prison and was offered a job teaching high school math for a non-profit at one (which I turned down because of the commute).  I know a number of formerly incarcerated women through my work with that organization.  I’ve interviewed several to craft narratives to raise money for prison organizations.  While I am not unsympathetic to the very real dangers and challenges faced by women in prison, wide scale bloodshed is not one of those dangers.  She’s also, presumably, eligible for protective custody as an incarcerated LEO.  

Your lack of sureness about her reaction having to do with race is a function of the life you have lived and the experiences you have had every bit as much as my relative certainty that it is is a function of my life and experiences.   I rather have to wonder what additional evidence would garner your sureness.  

This is a pretty light sentence.  Women have gone away for longer for defending themselves in DV situations or committing non-violent drug offenses.  She can and most likely will survive it.  If she doesn’t, that will be very sad but it’s hardly a foregone conclusion.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, LucyStoner said:

Botham Jean’s mother raised her hands to the heavens and praised god for the guilty verdict.  I’m not going to fault the prosecutors for expressing relief and joy at helping his mother get the verdict she was apparently praying for. 

While I agree there are “no winners”, I simply can’t create a false equivalency between the Jean family’s loss and the pain and suffering of the Guyger family.  She’s going to prison for a few years at least.  She will be ALIVE and free by the time she is my age (I’m about to turn 40.) She has lost her job.  She has to live with her actions.  But she’s alive and she will be out in time to start a family (should she want to).  She will be free for most of what is left of her natural born life.  He’s dead.  His life’s work had barely started, any potential new family members he might have created will never exist.  

Pretending that somehow she acted without regard to race is part of what perpetuates racism.  I’m not going to dismiss the gender ramifications but he was sitting down on a couch eating ice cream and her story about him coming at her changed.  

People usually mean the racist shit they say a lot more than they claim to when claiming it was just a joke or they didn’t know.  I’m past the point of excuses for this stuff.  

Dismissing the larger community’s cry for justice?  What would you being doing if it were your son and people who looked like your son were not infrequently treated unfairly or even killed when just minding their own business?  I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t say it happened in a vacuum and had zip zilch zero to do with the historical and present reality facing your son before he was killed.   

So total transparency here.....I would never have a job where a gun was required.  Never have a gun period.  And if I came upon what I thought was my apartment with the door open I would turn and run.  I know this because I had a mom who drilled into my head to think ahead how I would handle things.  An intruder in your house? Go out the window and run to the neighbors.  Someone attacks you in a parking lot? Scream like a maniac. Someone abducts you in your car? Crash into a building.  Ok, so maybe simplistic,,but she made me THINK about how I would react. 

We did not have a conversation about white man vs black man.  But.....I am a white girl raised around zero black people and I will admit I am a little more fearful of a black man over a white man all other things being equal.  I am intelligent enough to admit to myself that prejudice...but it exists.  So what do I exactly do about that? 

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, DoraBora said:

Is it possible that her deplorable racist texts were a sort of "talkin' smack"?  Or that she never really thought about how awful they were?  I have called out two people in my life about saying such things.  One was defensive -- I think he really meant them.  Bleh.  The other was sort of dumbfounded.  He said he was only joking and admitted that he hadn't really thought about how such statements sounded or how hurtful they are.

It.would.not.occur to a person who does not hold racist prejudices to "talk smack" in this way.  Or to be "only joking". The person may not have thought it through, but without racist biases it doesn't simply pop into your brian to joke about these things.

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[ktgrok]

I think it is important to understand that saying this is related to racism doesn't mean she had to think, "ooh - that's a black guy - I hate black guys! I'm going to shoot him!"

It can simply mean that she has a lower opinion of black men, thinks they are more prone to violence, thinks they are scarier, and therefore reacted with that bias. 

And of course, the bigger issue is that she's a hothead with zero respect for human life or her weapon, training, etc. 

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

1 minute ago, Scarlett said:

But.....I am a white girl raised around zero black people and I will admit I am a little more fearful of a black man over a white man all other things being equal.  I am intelligent enough to admit to myself that prejudice...but it exists.  So what do I exactly do about that? 

 

I think being honest and aware of it is a good first step.  There’s a lot of materials on implicit bias and even a pretty decent quiz to test one’s own level of implicit bias.  

As I have said before, I’m not in the least bit immune to racism and implicit bias just because I had a bit more exposure than the average white girl.  Don’t get me wrong, I am comfortable with black people in my family and community.  Most of the organizations I work for are racial minority run and about minority issues.  But that doesn’t mean I get to think I am above all that.  I’m really and truly not.  What would not be ok for me is denying the reality and impact of racism or thinking that I have some sort of immunity to racism just because I have a black brother/friend/liked NWA back in the day.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/525405/

I’m betting a lot of people who think they aren’t racist have quite a degree of implicit bias.  

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

So total transparency here.....I would never have a job where a gun was required.  Never have a gun period.  And if I came upon what I thought was my apartment with the door open I would turn and run.  I know this because I had a mom who drilled into my head to think ahead how I would handle things.  An intruder in your house? Go out the window and run to the neighbors.  Someone attacks you in a parking lot? Scream like a maniac. Someone abducts you in your car? Crash into a building.  Ok, so maybe simplistic,,but she made me THINK about how I would react. 

We did not have a conversation about white man vs black man.  But.....I am a white girl raised around zero black people and I will admit I am a little more fearful of a black man over a white man all other things being equal.  I am intelligent enough to admit to myself that prejudice...but it exists.  So what do I exactly do about that? 

she's a trained leo.  big difference to some female who doesn't own guns being asked what they would do in that situation.

however - if the statement that she *heard* someone in the apartment PRIOR to entering it, she is even more responsible for what happened, as her *training* SHOULD have gotten it through her thick skull to retreat and call for back-up and wait.  if she'd been on a call, and been in that situation where she thought there was an intruder - the training would have said "wait for back-up".  "don't go alone".   well, she went alone - and drew her gun.  not only is she racist (and lacking in situational awareness) - she's much too arrogant to be a cop.   

[DoraBora]

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Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[LucyStoner]

40 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

What additional evidence would garner a change of heart for you?  Is there zero possibility that, in this one case, you are wrong about her motives?  Is it at all possible that she is just foolish, or psychologically unfit to wear a uniform and carry a weapon, or a hothead, as someone upthread suggested?

I think she will probably survive prison, too.  She will probably live and he is gone forever.  I wasn't at all suggesting the false equivalency that the sadness about her situation is as serious and permanent as that of the Jean family.  I still find the whole affair to be very sad.  I am extremely sad for the Jean family.  I am also sad for her.  What a wicked waste.  

 

A few possible things:

-had she exercised caution and not gone in but then something escalated and she was in danger.  (It would help had he actually been coming towards her or attacking her outside of the apartment)  instead he was sitting down chilling and eating ice cream and she lied about it.  

-if there were no history of racist texts about having to work with black officers and saying “when MLK is dead” + if she had a long history of anti-racist work (not “she helped a black person sometime in the past) PLUS was impaired in a serious way that her judgment had been heavily impaired.  Like she was high as a kite or drunk off her ass.  Then I think it’s reckless and manslaughter vs. murder.  

- there was something to suggest she had a significant history of being rash and trigger happy with white people.  

-Had she acknowledged her racism and cited some specifics as to how she’d changed.  Showing more concern for his life than she did for her job.  

Bonus point if she’d refrained from calling a grown dead man “bud” and not lied off her ass from the first.  

So, I’ve answered your question and would much appreciate an answer to mine.  Why do you assume it’s not race? What evidence is lacking in that respect?  

@DoraBora I see instead you’ve deleted your posts.  I think that my passion around this issue is for well established reasons and I thought we were both discussing the issue.  I’m sorry you felt the need to not only duck out (which I should do to help sleep off my killer cold and is absolutely understandable) but also to remove your posts.  

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[DoraBora]

2 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

 

A few possible things:

-had she exercised caution and not gone in but then something escalated and she was in danger.  (It would help had he actually been coming towards her or attacking her outside of the apartment)  instead he was sitting down chilling and eating ice cream and she lied about it.  

-if there were no history of racist texts about having to work with black officers and saying “when MLK is dead” + if she had a long history of anti-racist work (not “she helped a black person sometime in the past) PLUS was impaired in a serious way that her judgment had been heavily impaired.  Like she was high as a kite or drunk off her ass.  Then I think it’s reckless and manslaughter vs. murder.  

- there was something to suggest she had a significant history of being rash and trigger happy with white people.  

-Had she acknowledged her racism and cited some specifics as to how she’d changed.  Showing more concern for his life than she did for her job.  

Bonus point if she’d refrained from calling a grown dead man “bud” and not lied off her ass from the first.  

So, I’ve answered your question and would much appreciate an answer to mine.  Why do you assume it’s not race? What evidence is lacking in that respect?

(Whew!  I'm back!  Something weird happened to my computer and I thought I had lost this post!  I was deleting my earlier posts while you were posting the above.  Then I was trying to answer your most recent post when it all went haywire.)

I don't assume it isn't race -- it's just that her texts alone don't make me assume that it is race.  I have said many times that I'm not convinced she would have refrained from shooting a white man under the same circumstances.  That's all. 

To your points:

He actually may have been coming toward her.  The original investigator - a Texas Ranger, who also happened to be African American - wasn't convinced that Jean was sitting on his couch when she shot him.  The judge agreed in one of her rulings that it was difficult to tell exactly where he was.  Several residents from her building testified about mistakenly entering other apartments or having people mistakenly enter theirs.

The racist "joke" texts do not help her case (as I said before), but I think a person can make tasteless, inappropriate jokes without thinking them through.  That doesn't excuse such statements at all, nor does it mean they aren't racist, but it also doesn't necessarily mean the person who writes them is more likely to kill, say, a black intruder than a white intruder.

If she had acknowledged her racism and cited specifics about how she had changed her views before she had shot him, would you have believed her?  Would that have been enough?  If she had shot a white man, I still think she probably would have foolishly stayed on the phone, worrying about the trouble she was going to be in instead of helping him.  I think that is just the way she was.

He died at the hospital, and was still alive when she was calling him "Bud".  She was probably trying, ineffectively, to rouse him while she stayed on the phone with the 911 dispatcher.  My husband has called people "Bud" before.  Other people have called him that because they don't know his name.  I listened to the 911 call.  I don't think calling him Bud was meant to be disrespectful.  She was freaked out.  If she had shot a white guy, she probably would have called him Bud, too.  (Good grief!)  I don't know what you mean by lying, unless you are referring to the information about where Jean was sitting/standing in the apartment.

One last thing...  I think the race factor in this killing wasn't as clear-cut to the jury as it was to some people on this board.  A jury that included ten people of color unanimously agreed to a sentence of ten years.  For murder!  I mentioned upthread (deleted now) that they deliberated only for a couple of hours.  They had been sequestered for a week already.  If they thought Ms. Guyger killed Botham Jean with reckless disregard simply because he was black, why didn't they argue for a longer sentence?  Surely they weren't in that great a rush to get home.  One more night at the Sheraton would have been well worth the opportunity to lobby for a longer sentence for a racist cop.  Maybe after hearing and seeing all of the evidence, including her texts, they had a different view about her motives,

I've deleted all of my other posts on this thread, mostly because I think I am offending people (not my intention), and I am going to bow out because I don't have the luxury of time right now to continue this argument.  I keep having to interrupt posting to do things for my family and prepare for tomorrow.  (Imagine that!  😊) 

This is such a charged and important topic!  I respect your thoughtful arguments and I hope I haven't offended you.   I am sorry for the experiences you have had that make this a painful subject.

Dora

Edited October 3, 2019 by DoraBora

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I found it interesting/surprising.  while I think forgiveness is extremely important ( not allowing someone to live in your head)  - I do not think it absolves someone of being tried in court, convicted - and serving time.  That's part of making restitution. (yes - I know it's not possible.  he's dead and she's not.)  that's on her.

I do think it speaks highly of mr. jeans brother's character.

had I been on that jury, I would have voted to convict. I also would have sentenced her to more time had I been the judge.

sadly - I can think of too many cases when a search warrant wasn't executed in a timely manner - even when the victim was white (frequently in DV cases.)

My understanding from listening to the news was that a judge did not decide the sentence. The jury did that too. (News gave jury deliberation times for both phases of the trial.). 

[Chris in VA]

5 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

 

I think being honest and aware of it is a good first step.  There’s a lot of materials on implicit bias and even a pretty decent quiz to test one’s own level of implicit bias.  

As I have said before, I’m not in the least bit immune to racism and implicit bias just because I had a bit more exposure than the average white girl.  Don’t get me wrong, I am comfortable with black people in my family and community.  Most of the organizations I work for are racial minority run and about minority issues.  But that doesn’t mean I get to think I am above all that.  I’m really and truly not.  What would not be ok for me is denying the reality and impact of racism or thinking that I have some sort of immunity to racism just because I have a black brother/friend/liked NWA back in the day.  

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/525405/

I’m betting a lot of people who think they aren’t racist have quite a degree of implicit bias.  

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

These bias tests are something everyone should take. Thank you so much. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Arctic Mama said:

Uh, that’s what you take from his actions? Not how amazing and humbling it is that a young man with every right in the world to be angry and seek vengeance was willing to hug his brother’s murdered, whisper his forgiveness, and ask her to become a follower of Jesus so she could seek the same peace and the mercy far beyond what the court could grant?  Way to cheapen his selflessness.  
 

Any time a victim or family of victims speaks forgiveness and grace for those who violated them it gets air time, and in this case the testimony was particularly poignant because of his age, the clarity of his words, and how quickly he felt to that point.  It speaks nothing of ‘yay forgive the white person!’ but instead very much of how inhumanly gracious he was able to be because of his own faith, because she deserved a much stronger sentence than she got.  His mother’s response was also very appropriate, even though it differed from his.  
 

But sure, it’s a race thing, not a shocking acts of unmerited mercy thing. 😒

 

Mercy is a wonderful thing. The problem, for me, is that people have come to expect mercy/forgiveness from victims as their 'due' and become further enraged when they do not get it (see the family of Eric Garner). As in...I DIDN'T MEAN IT! YOU ***HAVE*** TO FORGIVE ME! Well no, no one has to forgive. We don't know how any other family members feel, whether the surrounding/larger community which was also victimized by Jean's smearing, is ready/willing to forgive. This was an *individual* act of forgiveness. That's it. Too often these are treated like some kind of global absolution. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

10 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Except you’re reading that into it, especially when Jean said specifically this was his individual choice and he didn’t speak for anyone else in his family.  Take the man at his word, we don’t need to import race into every action of every person involved, when his skin color has literally nothing to do with the words he said. That just cheapens the issue at hand and where the INDIVIDUAL, himself, chose to place his emphasis.

 

 

I'm talking about the very public, OVER-sharing of the brother's response as if it's normal or even the best response, not the response itself. There are no 'best' ways to grieve and respond when your loved one is murdered. I'm not questioning his sentiment. I'm suggesting to you that the promotion of his 'forgiveness' as THE END (tm) is not appropriate and is rooted in a desire to see "I DIDN'T MEAN IT!" as a valid excuse.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

Yeah, no.  I strenuously disagree.  It’s remarkable and notable and as a Christian makes a very strong testimony.  Nobody I’ve seen sharing that personally has said anything about assuaging guilt of the guilty.  It’s literally just “her sentence was way too light, his mercy was remarkable and says so much about him”.  Maybe those comments or sentiments exist but I haven’t seen a single one.

To wit, from my favorite Christian news site - just a reporting of it, not some moralizing overtone about how the crime didn’t deserve that punishment or requires mercy from him or anyone else, and no suggestion it is the end of it.  She is still going to prison (for way too little time):

https://www.disrn.com/2019/10/02/brother-of-man-killed-by-ex-dallas-cop-in-his-own-apartment-forgives-embraces-her-in-court/

 

That's not generally what I see. That may be how your news outlets frame it. What I typically see, and this is just the latest example, Charlottesville was similar, is more along the lines of 'this is what people are supposed to/should do. Good for him for being the right kind of person. That kind of judgment call isn't, IMO, appropriate.

[SKL]

I don't understand what her affair had to do with what she did to the victim and why.

I have not followed the case, but from what I have heard, I can't understand how she could be not guilty of at least involuntary homicide.

I think the fact that she is a trained cop gives her a higher duty to get it right before she shoots someone - in her house or anywhere else.

Was the victim seriously threatening her when she pulled the trigger?  As in physically attacking?  If that was the case, I could understand why, given she thought it was her house, she would react that way.  Otherwise, no.

I am very sorry for the victim's family and so moved by their ability to forgive.

[gardenmom5]

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't understand what her affair had to do with what she did to the victim and why.

I have not followed the case, but from what I have heard, I can't understand how she could be not guilty of at least involuntary homicide.

I think the fact that she is a trained cop gives her a higher duty to get it right before she shoots someone - in her house or anywhere else.

Was the victim seriously threatening her when she pulled the trigger?  As in physically attacking?  If that was the case, I could understand why, given she thought it was her house, she would react that way.  Otherwise, no.

I am very sorry for the victim's family and so moved by their ability to forgive.

she was texting her lover right before she shot him.  she was claiming to be really tired, and that's why she didn't realize she was in the wrong apartment - but she was making plans on meeting up with her lover - right before she shot him.

she admitted she heard someone in the apartment - but she went inside anyway - with her gun drawn.  she admitted when she shot him, she shot to kill. 

the victim had been sitting on the couch, watching tv and eating ice cream.

eta: - she did NOT render first air OR CPR.  she kept talking about how she was going to lose her job, not that an innocent man was dead at her hand.

Edited October 3, 2019 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The news said that she could be eligible for parole in 5  years. 

gag me with a spork.  she already got off easy.

[Sneezyone]

Again, *ONE MEMBER* of the family expressed forgiveness publicly. His mother, and other family members have not. I have repeatedly seen him held out as 'the family'. He is *A* member of the family not *THE* family.

Comments like this (swiped from elsewhere)... "Nothing to do with the sentencing here just the Incredible strength of the murdered mans brother. For this man to believe in his Faith that strongly is amazing ! You can be religious or not, that took pure courage to do." are VERY common. 

The implication is that the other members of the family/public/similar victims lack strength, lack religiosity/faith, and lack courage. This may not be how folks intend for them to sound or come across but they do. As someone who has lost an immediate family member to gun violence, it is grating to have the pain of those who are still struggling leapt over in an effort to praise the person who claims to be past it already.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Valley Girl]

5 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't understand what her affair had to do with what she did to the victim and why.

I have not followed the case, but from what I have heard, I can't understand how she could be not guilty of at least involuntary homicide.

I think the fact that she is a trained cop gives her a higher duty to get it right before she shoots someone - in her house or anywhere else.

Was the victim seriously threatening her when she pulled the trigger?  As in physically attacking?  If that was the case, I could understand why, given she thought it was her house, she would react that way.  Otherwise, no.

I am very sorry for the victim's family and so moved by their ability to forgive.

I think you really have to read some of the articles to get the full scope of how outrageous and horrifying this situation is.

It wasn't her appartment.  She burst in on the homeowner who was minding his own business. She yelled to get his hands up and fired. Forensics appear to show that he was NOT advancing on her (and was, in fact, likely sitting or bending down). She saw no gun. Upon noticing the door ajar, she failed to follow her training to retreat and get back up. After shooting him, there does not appear to be evidence she provided first aid (despite having supplies in her backback). I could go on. Her behavior (in my opinion and the jury's) is that her actions go way beyond the level of involuntary homicide. She said in court she intended to kill him. She had options and opportunities to make better decisions at every step of the way. She didn't. And man doing nothing more than living his life in his own home was gunned down.

 

[SKL]

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Again, *ONE MEMBER* of the family expressed forgiveness publicly. His mother, and other family members have not. I have repeatedly seen him held out as 'the family'. He is *A* member of the family not *THE* family.

Comments like this (swiped from elsewhere)... "Nothing to do with the sentencing here just the Incredible strength of the murdered mans brother. For this man to believe in his Faith that strongly is amazing ! You can be religious or not, that took pure courage to do." are VERY common. 

The implication is that the other members of the family/public/similar victims lack strength, lack religiosity/faith, and lack courage. This may not be how folks intend for them to sound or come across but they do. As someone who has lost an immediate family member to gun violence, it is grating to have the pain of those who are still struggling leapt over in an effort to praise the person who claims to be past it already.

Did he claim to be past it?  I think forgiveness is different from being past it.

I just said I was moved.  That's all it means.

I'm sorry you lost a family member to gun violence.  I have as well.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, SKL said:

Did he claim to be past it?  I think forgiveness is different from being past it.

I just said I was moved.  That's all it means.

I'm sorry you lost a family member to gun violence.  I have as well.

 

I don't think many people make the distinction between forgiveness and being past it. I haven't, and probably never will, forgive the people who shot and killed my brother at 16. I have moved past it tho. I don't think absolution is mine to grant. Whether they receive it or not isn't up to me. The deification of those who offer it tho? I find that gross. I am sorry you also experienced this kind of loss. My brother and I were two years apart.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone

[katilac]

14 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Oh yes there were winners: the lawyers who fought hard for justice in a case where justice is very rarely served; the mother who has some small amount of peace knowing that her son's life was seen to have value and his death was not simply dismissed as an unfortunate but unavoidable side effect of "normal" policing; and the African American community who have seen so many of their sons and brothers and fathers murdered in cold blood with no accountability. 

I would also say that Amber Guyger emerged very much a winner, with a light sentence and a long life ahead of her. 

[LucyStoner]

9 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm seeing the video of the brother embracing Guyger show up all over my FB. Of course the brother can do whatever he wants but something is wrong with this. Why does the 'forgivenness' always get so much press? I think it's because it's makes us (white people) feel good. 

Is it a "feel good/feel bad" story like "oh, isn't it great that the this community raised $100K so this guy could get chemo and not die of cancer because his insurance has a pre-existing condition." Ah...isn't it nice that his neighbors helped him...but wait why can't this guy have access to affordable healthcare? Hmmm.... 

Something is wrong if we focus more on the forgiveness from a grieving family member than on the system. 

Found this on Twitter and thought it was good. 

Instead of Asking us to Forgive You Try Not Being Racist

 

Of course it’s showing up everywhere.  You are absolutely correct that it’s because it makes white people feel good.  Or white people can point to it and try to extract the same from other black people besides Mr. Jean’s brother.  

[LucyStoner]

Ally Henny (publicly available comments on Facebook) has a good post about the whole forgiveness thing. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by LucyStoner

[hippiemamato3]

She murdered a man in his own apartment. How was she not guilty? Additionally, 10 years for killing a man is not enough time, and the judge HUGGED her. I'm disgusted.

[LucyStoner]

Are we 12 years old?  WTF is up with all the confused blinky reactions on posts?  Disagreeing with someone is fine.  Using little glib smilies on a thread about a man’s death is petty.  

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

As petty as insisting that people’s reactions to a victim’s response are assuaging white guilt instead of what they actually say it is?  Nope.

 

I think you are not seeing, for whatever reason, the larger pattern here. After every one of these incidents, the family members (or families) that 'forgive' are trotted out to assuage public guilt WRT the systemic, underlying issues related to fearing black people on sight (or guns...choose your issue). What is confusing about that? Do you not understand why people would object to that standard operating procedure? Do you not see how individual acts fit within larger patterns of behavior?

Edited October 3, 2019 by Sneezyone