UPDATE Excelling academically in rigorous b&M school but stressed and wanting to come home?

[fairfarmhand]

20 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

She is a fantastic writer and has won several awards on the national level but everyone tells her that there is no career in writing.  She sees it as a dead end road.  She can't think of anything else she would want to do at all.  The idea of doing anything else kills her. She loves history too but doesn't want to teach. It frustrates her that she doesn't have a long term goal.  She excels in all subjects and is very well rounded but has no passion for any of it.  What she really wants to do is just write, but the everyone tells her that she can do that all she wants....on the side but that she needs to pick a career for the daytime.  She's happy with a simple life, she doesn't need a lot of money or fancy trinkets.  

Different versions of this conversation have been happening at my house for a few years now.

My 17 yo dd is quite bright and highly creative. She wants, more than anything, to write children's books. We're ok with that.

But one thing: I'm a writer. To make money, I usually have to write what other people want me to write. I get paid to make their copy sound appealing. That's fine. But to my dd, that sounds soul killing. She wants to write what she wants to write. And that's fine. But when her rent payment is dependent on that, it's going to be tough. For both of us, we need a low pressure situation to be at our best as writers. We both know that it takes time to make it as a writer. And the landlord won't necessarily wait for rent. 

So we've framed this discussion as "How can you do what you enjoy while taking care of yourself?" She wants to be independent, doesn't want to be living in our house while she's waiting for her ship to come in, though of all of our kids, she'd be the easiest one to have here long term.

She talked about working at a magazine or publishing house. However, she came to the realization that spending all day on someone else's projects would sap any of the creative energy she had left to work on her own projects. So we got back to the question of "How to support herself while working on her own projects?" She wants the fun to stay in her work, and spending all day under pressure to write wouldn't be that much fun. 

So she's now looking at fields not that "fulfill her" or that help her attain her "potential" (whatever that means) or get to some sort of financial level of achievement (like your dd she has very simple desires, but she doesn't want to have to stress about money and health insurance) She's wanting a career that fits her personality (introvert), doesn't sap her creativity, and pays well enough to support herself. So she's thinking of a Chemistry degree with the eye of working in a lab. She doesn't mind repetitive work.  Also things like working at a bank or some sort of professional job might help her take care of herself while writing. 

So it's less about "doing what she loves" and more about "how can you do that and still make your bills." That may or may not take a college degree.

I think your dd is telling you what she needs.

BTW: My dd will be going to a state college and living at home. Avoiding college debt is the main thing for us. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by fairfarmhand

[Kanin]

20 hours ago, Attolia said:

She excels in all subjects and is very well rounded but has no passion for any of it.  What she really wants to do is just write, but the everyone tells her that she can do that all she wants....on the side but that she needs to pick a career for the daytime.  She's happy with a simple life, she doesn't need a lot of money or fancy trinkets.

English major here! Fully employed and making ends meet 😄 

When I was finishing high school (with no career in mind), I chose an English degree because I couldn't think of anything I liked to do other than read. I had a great time in college! It was magical to wander the stacks and poke around in all sorts of old books. Careers aren't everything... we humans only have one short life, and it's important to find the special experiences that make life meaningful. If I had to do it again, I would still choose the English degree, but go to a cheaper school so I could have the fun without the debt 😂 No doubt your DD will get numerous scholarships based on her academic record. I could have gone to a state school for $5,000/year (and I was a "good" but not "great" student), but did I choose that option? No, no I did not. Oops!

I had low-paying jobs after college for about 10 years. But... I didn't care! I was in my 20's! I was able to pay my rent, eat, buy clothes, and do things... I just had to be thrifty. I rode my bike through snowstorms, wind, rain, and heat, and never once wished for a car. I'm glad I had to be careful for those years, because it taught me to manage money. I had a desk job for a while (boring, but I got out at 5 p.m. with no responsibilities, so... freedom! Plus I liked chatting with the other desk job girls 🙂 ), and then I was self-employed as a tutor making something like $14,000/year for a couple years, and it was such a fun couple of years!! I finally got another degree and a "real job" in my early thirties. I kind of miss those poor but carefree years.

I think your daughter needs a break. Graduating valedictorian from a good school is no guarantee that she's going to make bushels of money later in life. Being resourceful, hardworking, and flexible are skills that will help her succeed, no matter what her "career" is. Plus, people change careers all the time. Getting a certain degree from a certain school is not a guarantee of getting a certain job. And as an aside, plenty of people must be working as writers. I mean, every town has a newspaper at the very least!

Best of luck to your DD. I hope she gets a full scholarship to a non-pressure-cooker college, and reads ALL the books, discovers ALL the strange and wonderful words she's never heard of, and writes ALL the things. 

 

 

 

 

[Kanin]

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

As an amazing writer and deep thinker, her college essays will shine as she explains WHY she pulled out of a pressure cooker environment to follow her own path. 

Agreed!

And definitely look into all types of college, not just the "big names." My DH (now PhD in math) went to a small liberal arts college in the middle of nowhere, and had a glorious 4 years of absolutely loving learning. He hated high school, by the way.

[Innisfree]

At this point, given all the new information, I'd pull her out. 

But I'd still talk to folks at the school. A good school, not merely a rigorous one, would want to know how their environment was affecting their likely valedictorian. I'd still kind of hope they'd leap into action if they understood the situation, at least for other kids in the future.

[katilac]

2 hours ago, Innisfree said:

But I'd still talk to folks at the school. A good school, not merely a rigorous one, would want to know how their environment was affecting their likely valedictorian. I'd still kind of hope they'd leap into action if they understood the situation, at least for other kids in the future.

A rigorous and competitive school is, by its nature, going to stress out a certain number of students. It is absolutely not suited to everyone. That doesn't necessarily mean it should change, because a rigorous and competitive school is just the thing for a certain number of other students. Many kids really do thrive in a highly competitive environment. Not mine, lol, but others. 

[Innisfree]

23 minutes ago, katilac said:

A rigorous and competitive school is, by its nature, going to stress out a certain number of students. It is absolutely not suited to everyone. That doesn't necessarily mean it should change, because a rigorous and competitive school is just the thing for a certain number of other students. Many kids really do thrive in a highly competitive environment. Not mine, lol, but others. 

I agree, it won't suit everyone, and maybe it is really fine and shouldn't change. But I think the faculty might at least want the chance to ask themselves whether everything is going as intended, and the school atmosphere is appropriate and nurturing for most of the students, or whether it has veered into pressure cooker territory. 

[Pen]

I think talking to school would be helpful from POV of asking if she can return after a year off.  And keep scholarship.

and asking if they know of anything (anyone) that might help or can offer any help

 

[Corraleno]

I find it really odd, on a homeschooling board with lots of very high-achieving kids who get into top schools, that the idea of homeschooling a really smart, talented student who desperately wants to be homeschooled would be seen as a last resort — only acceptable if she can't be medically/psychologically "patched up" enough to tolerate being dumped back into the extremely competitive, pressure-cooker environment that destroyed her love of learning and sucked all the joy out of her life. That sends the message that following her instincts, choosing the environment she feels is best for her, is a sign of weakness, a failure, evidence that she's just not good enough to handle the "best" education. How is that not going to increase her anxiety and her feelings of failure and self-doubt and worries about the future??? 

Homeschooling is not something you "settle" for only if you're not good enough, or smart enough, or strong enough, for a high-stress private school. For many students it is the best way to get the best possible education. No college is going to look at a really smart, talented kid who took control of her own education and can write about it in a passionate and articulate way, and think "oh no, we don't want a mature, self-motivated kid with national writing awards, we'll just take another one of those nearly-identical valedictorians with 14 APs and 3 club presidencies who founded a fake charity."

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I find it really odd, on a homeschooling board with lots of very high-achieving kids who get into top schools, that the idea of homeschooling a really smart, talented student who desperately wants to be homeschooled would be seen as a last resort — only acceptable if she can't be medically/psychologically "patched up" enough to tolerate being dumped back into the extremely competitive, pressure-cooker environment that destroyed her love of learning and sucked all the joy out of her life. That sends the message that following her instincts, choosing the environment she feels is best for her, is a sign of weakness, a failure, evidence that she's just not good enough to handle the "best" education. How is that not going to increase her anxiety and her feelings of failure and self-doubt and worries about the future??? 

Homeschooling is not something you "settle" for only if you're not good enough, or smart enough, or strong enough, for a high-stress private school. For many students it is the best way to get the best possible education. No college is going to look at a really smart, talented kid who took control of her own education and can write about it in a passionate and articulate way, and think "oh no, we don't want a mature, self-motivated kid with national writing awards, we'll just take another one of those nearly-identical valedictorians with 14 APs and 3 club presidencies who founded a fake charity."

 

 

My oldest dd is in a top ten university and she was homeschooled.  This is my third child and the first one I anticipated completing all of high school in a b&m school. I have no doubt that bringing her home will not hurt her in the college admissions process.  To be honest, she isn't writing very much right now,  trying to keep up with the workload, and adding more writing to her resume would probably help.

My biggest hesitancy is that she fears she will regret it.  This girl is by nature super introverted but when she is forced into a social environment repetitively she thrives and gets really attached to the people around her.  The kids in her school seek her out as a leader, fight over her for group projects, adore her, etc.  There is an element of school that I know she will miss terribly and that is the people.  And she needs them, she can't go into a shell and become a hermit and I am afraid she will do that at home.  

She is hesitant to come home tbh.  If I tell her that I will give her choice, she hesitates. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Attolia

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 

My oldest dd is in a top ten university and she was homeschooled.  This is my third child and the first one I anticipated completing all of high school in a b&m school. I have no doubt that bringing her home will not hurt her in the college admissions process.  To be honest, she isn't writing very much right now,  trying to keep up with the workload, and adding more writing to her resume would probably help.

My biggest hesitancy is that she fears she will regret it.  This girl is by nature super introverted but when she is forced into a social environment repetitively she thrives and gets really attached to the people around her.  The kids in her school seek her out as a leader, fight over her for group projects, adore her, etc.  There is an element of school that I know she will miss terribly and that is the people.  And she needs them, she can't go into a shell and become a hermit and I am afraid she will do that at home.  

She is hesitant to come home tbh.  If I tell her that I will give her choice, she hesitates. 

Do you have a co-op or other social opportunities available? What were your older daughter’s social outlets while homeschooling high school?

[Ann.without.an.e]

41 minutes ago, Frances said:

Do you have a co-op or other social opportunities available? What were your older daughter’s social outlets while homeschooling high school?

 

tbh, she didn't have too many kids her own age.  I don't know why but any kid with aptitude here goes to b&m school by high school so what is left are the kids who could care less and my kids care too much to have anything in common with them.  

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Attolia said:

My biggest hesitancy is that she fears she will regret it.  This girl is by nature super introverted but when she is forced into a social environment repetitively she thrives and gets really attached to the people around her.  The kids in her school seek her out as a leader, fight over her for group projects, adore her, etc.  There is an element of school that I know she will miss terribly and that is the people.  And she needs them, she can't go into a shell and become a hermit and I am afraid she will do that at home.  

Can't she still socialize with her friends outside of school? My DD has lots of friends who are in PS, some she knew as homeschoolers who decided to go to B&M school for high school, and others who have always been in school, who she became friends with through the first group. She socializes with her PS friends much more than other homeschoolers, actually. If the kids from the private school have no time to socialize outside of school, because every waking hour including weekends is spent on schoolwork... well to me that's another argument for getting out of that environment not staying in it.

Are there any activities for writers within a reasonable commuting distance — a writer's workshop or poetry slams or a book club at the library? Or could she start one? Are there other activities she might be interested in that would involve a group, like hiking or bird watching or gardening or cooking or something? Is there a local university where she could take classes, either fun classes that aren't very academic or classes in literature or writing or foreign language or something that involves interaction and discussion? Even taking one or two classes would open up lots of options in terms of clubs and other student groups and activities. And really, if all she wants to do for the next year is hunker down and read and write and find her center again, that's not a bad thing either. It doesn't mean she'll be a hermit forever, just she needs a little time and space to decompress.

[Ann.without.an.e]

54 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Can't she still socialize with her friends outside of school? My DD has lots of friends who are in PS, some she knew as homeschoolers who decided to go to B&M school for high school, and others who have always been in school, who she became friends with through the first group. She socializes with her PS friends much more than other homeschoolers, actually. If the kids from the private school have no time to socialize outside of school, because every waking hour including weekends is spent on schoolwork... well to me that's another argument for getting out of that environment not staying in it.

Are there any activities for writers within a reasonable commuting distance — a writer's workshop or poetry slams or a book club at the library? Or could she start one? Are there other activities she might be interested in that would involve a group, like hiking or bird watching or gardening or cooking or something? Is there a local university where she could take classes, either fun classes that aren't very academic or classes in literature or writing or foreign language or something that involves interaction and discussion? Even taking one or two classes would open up lots of options in terms of clubs and other student groups and activities. And really, if all she wants to do for the next year is hunker down and read and write and find her center again, that's not a bad thing either. It doesn't mean she'll be a hermit forever, just she needs a little time and space to decompress.

 

 

A lot of the bolded and the fact that this is the wealthy private school and we aren't members of the local country club which is where 99% of the outside of school social aspect for these kids takes place.  Her closest friend is also not in the country club circle and she would def be able to stay close to her even if she left, but the others probably wouldn't work out unless we won the lottery and joined the c club.  But, wait, we wouldn't do that even if we were independently wealthy so 🤣

Edited September 7, 2019 by Attolia

[moonflower]

being a scholarship student in a wealthy private school is probably part of the stress, tbh

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the pressure she feels to perform is an overcompensation for not being rich (an "I belong here too" kind of thing)

[Corraleno]

20 minutes ago, Attolia said:

A lot of the bolded and the fact that this is the wealthy private school and we aren't members of the local country club which is where 99% of the outside of school social aspect for these kids takes place.  Her closest friend is also not in the country club circle and she would def be able to stay close to her even if she left, but the others probably wouldn't work out unless we won the lottery and joined the c club.  

Yikes, that just adds a whole extra layer of social pressure and competitiveness on top of the academic stuff. I'm glad at least her closest friend would stick with her, and as far as the other "friends" are concerned... well, those don't sound like much of a loss. 😕 

It sounds like she's self-aware enough to recognize that by sacrificing so much in order to "be the best" in a system whose values she doesn't fully share, she's ended up losing too much of what she does value, like her love of learning. But she's struggling to trust her own instincts and values while immersed in a system that says outward measures of success (top grades, elite colleges, lucrative careers, the biggest house, the newest car) are what determine your worth. It can be really hard to listen to your heart and walk away from that. 

[RootAnn]

On 9/6/2019 at 12:31 PM, Attolia said:

 I just don't know if the right approach is to bring her home, help her heal, help her find the love of learning again or to help her manage the stress so she doesn't feel these things.  

I don't think the decision is either/or. I think the need is for both.

[Soror]

My daughter experienced this angst on a much smaller scale last year. She decided she wanted to try school and with a lot of job stress (we thought dh might loss his job and I might have to go to work FT) we let her try it. She stayed in 3 months, she loved it at first but kept getting stressed out about it. The stupid rules. The homework. The social scene. Her teacher. But even when I seen her struggling and would ask her if she wanted to come home she wouldn't. Finally, one day the dam broke and she confided that she would be a failure if she came home. She so wanted to be "normal" and MIL had made so many comments about how proud she was of her for going to school and sticking with it. I had to work at convincing her that it was ok. We made pros and cons list, we talked in depth about what she wanted, not what everyone else wanted. She told me she would cry on the bus to school, missing us all at home but yet felt she had to do it. A huge weight lifted when she finally decided to come home, she did have some apprehensiveness about the social stuff. She still misses that to a degree (a lot of the social stuff sucks) but seeing friends every day was nice but it wasn't worth all the cons.

But she is happy again and not stressed out, a weight was lifted when she left. She says she doesn't plan on going back, I hope she sticks with that decision, not just because I want her home and prefer hs'ing but because for her personality I think being at home is a better choice. My son OTOH did well last year and so far is doing well in HS, he takes Honor's courses, and thus far has rose to the challenge. I think he has too much homework but he doesn't have near that much, which I don't think is healthy for anyone regardless of whether or not they enjoy it, sleep is more important, hands down.

Edited September 7, 2019 by soror

[Pen]

Maybe you could sit down with her tomorrow with a pad of paper and make columns for possibilities like Stay in School with No change— Stay in school with x possible changes—-homeschool in y manner—-homeschool in z manner—-try q school...    and list pluses and minuses for each , as well as questions that might be asked if someone at the school or therapist or other person ...

and try to work with her toward making a good decision together.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I don't think the decision is either/or. I think the need is for both.

 

I don't understand this comment, I can't keep her there to work through the stresses of that environment AND bring her home at the same time. 🤔

[Pen]

7 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 

I don't understand this comment, I can't keep her there to work through the stresses of that environment AND bring her home at the same time. 🤔

 

I was thinking same.

 But is that absolutely certain?  Might a half load program at school be possible for health reasons? 

[RootAnn]

41 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 "I just don't know if the right approach is to bring her home, help her heal, help her find the love of learning again or to help her manage the stress so she doesn't feel these things."

I don't understand this comment, I can't keep her there to work through the stresses of that environment AND bring her home at the same time. 🤔

She's going to need help to manage the stress she's going to encounter in life past this. I suggest both pulling her AND getting her help at managing the stress & feelings to help her in the long-term.

Even though homeschooling doesn't mean failure, she'll think it is.

[DawnM]

17 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

My oldest dd is in a top ten university and she was homeschooled.  This is my third child and the first one I anticipated completing all of high school in a b&m school. I have no doubt that bringing her home will not hurt her in the college admissions process.  To be honest, she isn't writing very much right now,  trying to keep up with the workload, and adding more writing to her resume would probably help.

My biggest hesitancy is that she fears she will regret it.  This girl is by nature super introverted but when she is forced into a social environment repetitively she thrives and gets really attached to the people around her.  The kids in her school seek her out as a leader, fight over her for group projects, adore her, etc.  There is an element of school that I know she will miss terribly and that is the people.  And she needs them, she can't go into a shell and become a hermit and I am afraid she will do that at home.  

She is hesitant to come home tbh.  If I tell her that I will give her choice, she hesitates. 

 

Can you come up with a "let's see how you feel at the end of this semester, after some therapy" plan?

I was wondering if she might regret it later.  Is there a chance of going back if she changes her mind for her Senior year?  Will she still qualify for the scholarship?  Or can you afford to pay a year?

Does the school offer a partial day option?  

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

13 hours ago, Pen said:

 

I was thinking same.

 But is that absolutely certain?  Might a half load program at school be possible for health reasons? 

 

You can't half program at this school or take just some classes. It is full enrollment or nothing.  I will ask questions though before we make a bid decisions and see what the options really are 🤷‍♀️

[Ann.without.an.e]

12 hours ago, RootAnn said:

She's going to need help to manage the stress she's going to encounter in life past this. I suggest both pulling her AND getting her help at managing the stress & feelings to help her in the long-term.

Even though homeschooling doesn't mean failure, she'll think it is.

 

I mean, yes, I get that.  The problem is that she doesn't seem to have anxiety in other realms of life.  Homeschooling wouldn't cause her stress.  I don't think the college classes would cause her stress tbh.  So we can go for counseling but we will have no idea if it is working if she is no longer stressed right?

Thinking about this more.  This is an identity issue.  She *IS* the smart one, the one everyone looks to, she is labeled and identified and held up in this manner.  I think the anxiety has built up over a fear of failing to prove that somehow?  She overworks and over-stresses to maintain something that at first was just who she was but now she is afraid to lose.  If that makes any sense at all?  And she has even said "I want to find an environment where no one views me as the smart one and there are no expectations to keep."

 

[Pen]

What is the concurrent health problem?

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, Attolia said:

Thinking about this more.  This is an identity issue.  She *IS* the smart one, the one everyone looks to, she is labeled and identified and held up in this manner.  I think the anxiety has built up over a fear of failing to prove that somehow?  She overworks and over-stresses to maintain something that at first was just who she was but now she is afraid to lose.  If that makes any sense at all?  And she has even said "I want to find an environment where no one views me as the smart one and there are no expectations to keep."

 

There is a burden to that similar to Serena Williams who just got beaten in the US Open by a Canadian Romanian has. The over work and over stress to maintain “status” is the concerning part. Two of my gifted program classmates were labeled as the smart ones in different ways. One was happy when she work as a lawyer and surrounded by so many “smart ones” that she didn’t stand out. The other is a cardiologist (her dream career) and her dept is usually too busy to think about what other people think. Both were more “at peace” after college with hearing people say “you must be so smart to be a .....”.  They accepted that people would say what they would say (both were scholars with academic scholarships for college) and not let that get them down.

Is she suffering from imposter syndrome? Having a “successful” sister may aggravate that. Your oldest daughter in Duke also won writing awards if I didn’t remember wrongly. I know former classmates from the gifted program who still suffer from imposter syndrome from time to time and we are already 46 to 47 years old.

My husband was labeled as the smart one by his extended family because he was the first to get a college scholarship and to get a PhD. His “elite” middle school and high school has plenty of smart ones so he was “below average” there while he was ranked top three in his elementary school cohort. He did mentioned to me that he liked being in the middle academically even though there was plenty of rich people’s children in his elite schools. There was much less pressure since he wasn’t top 10 in cohort and there was more to learn (elite schools had more academic and extracurricular offerings, and was extremely well funded by alumni). 

My kids don’t want to be a big fish in a small pond because they don’t want their “failures” to be announced like a public service announcement. I had plenty of academic failures that no one other than the public school teachers knew because I was flying under the radar with my cohort and enjoying school. My teachers were kind enough to not announce when I get top score for Finals or As an entrance exam. So attention wasn’t on me as I wasn’t an academic superstar that my cohort has to “compete” with for college admissions. 

My side of the family has many high achieving well rounders and I am the “sick one” so no one harps academics on me. 

[Innisfree]

3 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

Thinking about this more.  This is an identity issue.  She *IS* the smart one, the one everyone looks to, she is labeled and identified and held up in this manner.  I think the anxiety has built up over a fear of failing to prove that somehow?  She overworks and over-stresses to maintain something that at first was just who she was but now she is afraid to lose.  If that makes any sense at all?  And she has even said "I want to find an environment where no one views me as the smart one and there are no expectations to keep."

 

What other elements of her identity get attention? Does she enjoy sports, reading, pets, other things? And do people express the way they value those parts of her?

This is something we had to really work on for my anxious high achiever. She needed not to be known merely as "the smart one". That label carries with it the fear that she might someday do something dumb, and then who would she be?

Being "the smart one" is not always a benign label.

Edited September 8, 2019 by Innisfree

[ktgrok]

4 hours ago, Attolia said:

 

I mean, yes, I get that.  The problem is that she doesn't seem to have anxiety in other realms of life.  Homeschooling wouldn't cause her stress.  I don't think the college classes would cause her stress tbh.  So we can go for counseling but we will have no idea if it is working if she is no longer stressed right?

 

The bolded sure makes it sound like the problem isn't her, but the school situation. I mean, if she can handle "normal" stresses of every day life just fine, but is not able to handle a pressure cooker environment on top of chronic severe sleep deprivation on top of chronic health issues - well, she sounds fine. Is our standard for mental health that one CAN do all that without feeling overwhelmed? Because I think that is setting the standard way too high.

 Maybe the coping skill she needs to learn is when to say 'no" and when to draw boundaries, and when to say "that's too much and not healthy". 

[ktgrok]

Also, you say she could handle college classes fine. So, have you considered early enrollment? None of the stigma of leaving to come home to homeschool, would open up a huge array of social options, give her the ability to pick whatever classes she wants, etc. She could spend a semester taking lots of English classes, maybe a fun art class, etc. And not lose her identity as "the smart one". 

Highschool was a nightmare for me, so I did early enrollment and it was a fantastic decision. 

[Lecka]

Maybe there are specific reasons she thinks she is seen that way.  Maybe pressure is being put on her by comments.  It might not be just in her imagination, maybe she really is held up this way at school by various people (even both teachers and students) and it is the role she is pigeon-holes into.  

I think it’s very possible this is the case.

I don’t know if that changes much for decision-making, but you might ask why she thinks that’s the case and hear back ———— that she has expectations on her.  

It could be anything... but it could be there is pressure to get a scholarship or attend a college that would provide bragging rights or affirmation to the school or teachers at the school etc.

Maybe she has any concerns she shares with classmates downplayed like “oh, you don’t have anything to worry about, everything is easy for you,” or something like that. 

 

[Lecka]

I also bet there are people at school (classmates or teachers) that — if they know she has an older sibling at Duke, bring it up in some way or make it seem like there’s a standard there in her family or a competition or something like that.  I have seen people be that way.  

[Ann.without.an.e]

UPDATE

I am very thankful for all of your help with this.  I am not sure I can truly express how thankful I am to have such an amazing group of people as a sounding board.  Your advice was solid and unbiased and greatly appreciated. 

I have been thinking about this a lot.  The health problems she is having is causing the anxiety with her being at school. She began to express to me that she couldn't go back around mid summer when she began having more health issues (which are unresolved).  She would express that she couldn't function in that environment feeling so bad.  The core isn't a lack of desire to be at school as much she knows she can't perform her best feeling terribly. We are working to figure out her health issues and we are on specialist #3.

So where are we now?  We gave DD the choice and left the ball completely in her court.  She has been extremely torn because she loves her friends and teachers and so much about the school.  She actually went to school yesterday after being out last wed-friday because of sickness.  Adding to the stress is this factor too - how many days are they allowed to miss for AP classes?  8!  Only 8!  And that includes college visits if you do those on school days.  She went yesterday and stayed home again today because she just feels too bad. So she has now reached half of absences for the year in only two weeks of school.  

She seems pretty solid about coming home.  She can't learn in this environment the way that she feels.  And once upon a time she could do all of their busy work and explore more on her own and dig deeper but she has no energy for that anymore. 

I wrote a letter explaining the struggle with health issues to the head of upper school.  We will see how they respond.  If they offer a medical leave of absence then we will make that decision then.  I stated it in more of a withdrawal sense but we'll see what they say.  

[Soror]

Best wishes to her Attolia, I hope the physical and mental health issues improve . I hope she feels peace about her decision and thrives at home.

[ktgrok]

I have to say I am so impressed with her for listening to her body, and her soul. So many people don't learn self care until they are in their 40s and having a breakdown, mid divorce, etc etc. She's getting those life skills now. So bravo to her. Make sure she knows how cool that is. 

[PeterPan]

45 minutes ago, Attolia said:

The health problems she is having is causing the anxiety with her being at school.

It does seem like that's what is going on. Do you think the school stress caused the health problems or are they from something else or pre-existing? 

I hope you can figure them out. Sometimes it takes a number of doctors and some sleuthing. If nothing else is showing up, maybe try something really low key like running genetics and looking at her MTHFR status. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It does seem like that's what is going on. Do you think the school stress caused the health problems or are they from something else or pre-existing? 

I hope you can figure them out. Sometimes it takes a number of doctors and some sleuthing. If nothing else is showing up, maybe try something really low key like running genetics and looking at her MTHFR status. 

 

I am not totally sure.  She was diagnosed with Hashimoto's in 7th grade.  She was the one that y'all diagnosed with severe anemia last year.  It is complex and we just aren't sure. I could start a post on it.  Ya'll have more luck diagnosing her than anyone else haha.

[PeterPan]

My dd's MTHFR issues weren't readily apparent to us till she got into a lot of stress. It affects B vitamins, so their energy tanks. There are some blood tests you can run too, if you just want to run them and see where she's at. Homocysteine will be affected, folate, and also run vitamin D while you're at it. 

For whatever reason, docs don't usually run these. The homocysteine they can infer based on some other numbers in a normal blood panel, so then they don't think they need to run it. 

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 

I am not totally sure.  She was diagnosed with Hashimoto's in 7th grade.  She was the one that y'all diagnosed with severe anemia last year.  It is complex and we just aren't sure. I could start a post on it.  Ya'll have more luck diagnosing her than anyone else haha.

Oh good night. What a mess. So is she eating things for her lunches that are aggravating the hashis? I don't have hashis (mercifully), but I've read some foods can aggravate the autoimmune problems and make it worse. I was just trying to think about why it's worse *now*. And is she fully medicated with both T3 and T4?

On the anemia, where is that at? That goes back to your Bs, D, etc. 

Yeah, if you haven't run genetics, might be time. Just a nice 23andme, cheapest version, and run the raw data through KnowYourGenetics.com 

Edited September 10, 2019 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

http://www.healthcheckusa.com/nutrition-vitamin-tests/panels/vitamin-panel.aspx  This is expensive, so it would be better if your doc would run the labs and get your insurance to cover it. But if the doc is being a pain in the butt, you can do the labs yourself. I have used this company multiple times. Just used them as a matter of fact to update my thyroid testing. I was between doc visits and wanted to track how things were changing with a change I made to my regimen. They can also run the homocysteine.

 

[Ann.without.an.e]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

http://www.healthcheckusa.com/nutrition-vitamin-tests/panels/vitamin-panel.aspx  This is expensive, so it would be better if your doc would run the labs and get your insurance to cover it. But if the doc is being a pain in the butt, you can do the labs yourself. I have used this company multiple times. Just used them as a matter of fact to update my thyroid testing. I was between doc visits and wanted to track how things were changing with a change I made to my regimen. They can also run the homocysteine.

 

 

Hematology did a full vitamin panel and tons of tests.  It was with St Judes and they were super thorough. I just knew it was going to be vitamin B but it wasn't. Granted, the supplement she takes is super huge doses of iron and b.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Attolia

[scrapbookbuzz]

I've done a cursory reading of this thread. Mostly your comments, OP. Discussed a little bit with my husband.
Here's our two cents: let her come home. Let her take a slower pace academically, rest, and HEAL. AP classes only really count
in high school, and maybe towards some college scholarships. But in life? There is SO much more to life than having taken (and/or
doing crazily well) in AP classes in high school. I think the greatest education you can give her right now is the lesson that it is MORE 
important to REST in order to HEAL, than to push through the pain and illness, which will only prove to be a detriment in the future.
Those who look to her as leader now, she can tell them she's taking time to heal, and THAT is the greatest way she can lead them at this time.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, Attolia said:

UPDATE

I am very thankful for all of your help with this.  I am not sure I can truly express how thankful I am to have such an amazing group of people as a sounding board.  Your advice was solid and unbiased and greatly appreciated. 

I have been thinking about this a lot.  The health problems she is having is causing the anxiety with her being at school. She began to express to me that she couldn't go back around mid summer when she began having more health issues (which are unresolved).  She would express that she couldn't function in that environment feeling so bad.  The core isn't a lack of desire to be at school as much she knows she can't perform her best feeling terribly. We are working to figure out her health issues and we are on specialist #3.

So where are we now?  We gave DD the choice and left the ball completely in her court.  She has been extremely torn because she loves her friends and teachers and so much about the school.  She actually went to school yesterday after being out last wed-friday because of sickness.  Adding to the stress is this factor too - how many days are they allowed to miss for AP classes?  8!  Only 8!  And that includes college visits if you do those on school days.  She went yesterday and stayed home again today because she just feels too bad. So she has now reached half of absences for the year in only two weeks of school.  

She seems pretty solid about coming home.  She can't learn in this environment the way that she feels.  And once upon a time she could do all of their busy work and explore more on her own and dig deeper but she has no energy for that anymore. 

I wrote a letter explaining the struggle with health issues to the head of upper school.  We will see how they respond.  If they offer a medical leave of absence then we will make that decision then.  I stated it in more of a withdrawal sense but we'll see what they say.  

 

I hope they’ll offer medical leave of absence.  I think it might be a good idea to specifically ask for this rather than just hoping they will offer it.  They may say no, but maybe they wouldn’t think you might like that if you didn’t ask. It would allow focus entirely on health and a decision about the school to be made when feeling better and having more help from therapists/ doctors... 

I strongly recommend that the focus now turn pretty much entirely to health.  If you are “homeschooling “ make health studies the focus:

Sleep (I highly recommend Matthew Walker Why We Sleep)

Autoimmunity (I recommend the docuseries about autoimmunity that I just finished recently called Betrayal— unfortunately I posted it on the boards here when it was available for free but it no longer is.  With a child with autoimmunity I think it might be worth buying the series, though not all episodes seemed equally good to me. 

and books: Autoimmune Fix by Tom O’Bryan

The Autoimmune Fix: How to Stop the Hidden Autoimmune Damage That Keeps You Sick, Fat, and Tired  Before It Turns Into Disease https://www.amazon.com/dp/162336700X/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_7h8DDbNCPW41V

(I’ve had autoimmune health problems for decades and am finding following the protocols he gives helpful—though I almost certainly have too much damage already to turn things around entirely and certainly not quickly.) 

and the Autoimmune Solution by Amy Myers

 

please be aware that vitamin etc levels measured in blood may not correspond to what is effectively getting into cells where it’s needed

 

Anxiety may be a physical as well as an emotional reaction and some of the anxiety may be  being caused physically by the same things causing the health problems — as well as being a reaction to the stress.   

Further, stress and anxiety use up a number of micronutrients including B vitamins so I’d be doubtful that she has enough where she needs it, no matter what blood tests showed. 

 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Attolia said:

supplement she takes is super huge doses of iron and b.

Ok, so I'll just say it again. Run genetics. If she's taking high doses of B vitamins and has an MTHFR defect, that would make her feel like crap.

[Ann.without.an.e]

30 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, so I'll just say it again. Run genetics. If she's taking high doses of B vitamins and has an MTHFR defect, that would make her feel like crap.

 

I must be terribly confused because I thought you need high doses if you have MTHFR.  I guess I need more research haha.

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, Attolia said:

 

I must be terribly confused because I thought you need high doses if you have MTHFR.  I guess I need more research haha.

 

My understanding is you need the right *form*  of B vitamins if so.  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Attolia said:

 

I must be terribly confused because I thought you need high doses if you have MTHFR.  I guess I need more research haha.

MTHFR is a methylation defect, and b vitamins, D, a number of things use methyls to do their gig. (How's that for scientific?) So if you dump tons of regular, unmethylated B vitamins on someone who has trouble cranking out methyls (MTHFR defect), you drop their methyl levels to the basement and they feel like crap. Since your dd was functional before, started the heavy B, and became unable to do her school work, it would be a question.

There are other complexities, like I have an MTHFR defect *and* COMT, so I will go low but don't tolerate high doses. It's why you run genetics. And elevated homocysteine (the thing to look in her labs for) is a huge clue that something is wrong. 

If you want a quickie thought (totally unprofessional and unsubstantiated), what happens if she drinks orange juice? It's heavy in methyls so it can perk people up. 

But yeah, it's like $69 on sale to run the genetics.