Paying for college- It breaks my heart....

[...................]

It breaks my heart to see how many people on the Facebook pages for my son's university allowed their child to apply, encouraged them to visit, and ACCEPT admissions and literally, I mean quite literally had no idea how to pay, or that they would HAVE TO pay...

I am so thankful my sister warned us a few years back how expensive it is, and that we would not get any federal subsidized loans...and I am thankful for the parents here who've been explaining over and over that, you know, college is really, and I mean really expensive.

We have people right now,... with their kid 5 weeks from going to college.... saying that they cannot pay, cannot afford the loan payments if they use Parent Plus and don't even have a backup plan (for example, we knew we could take out the equity in our home, if our son had gotten into one of the pricier schools...)....These people are quite literally having to make a choice between telling their child that it was all a mistake and they'd have to go to community college after all, after the  student got all their hopes up, bought the tee shirt, told all of their friends, and made all of the announcements OR ....the parent will have 40,000 loans that they know they can't afford...one of them decided to tell the student they'd pay for one year and then she'd have to find another way, move back home, join ROTC, something...some of the parents have figured out many ways to make it work such as grandparent help, the student getting a job at food services or downtown, taking on an extra job of their own...but all at this last minute...

....very scary 

[teachermom2834]

I think the numbers and emotions are just so high around the whole thing. I know I am always telling people how expensive it is and people just don’t want to believe it or just can’t comprehend. They hear about financial aid and FAFSA and think they really only will be charged what they can afford. I think the biggest thing is just how high the tab still is after scholarships and aid. People always say “ your kids will get scholarships.” I am constantly explaining that even a full tuition scholarship leaves a big room and board tab.

There is a lot of denial around the whole thing. 

The worst part is that most of the time they could have been a way to work out a more affordable option. That is the part that gets me the most. A super high stats kid with no affordable options because they didn’t apply where they could get big merit aid. 

Oh well. Most people don’t want to hear my thoughts on college admissions and financing so I save it for the people I really love. 🙂

[RootAnn]

I've been amazed at the parents who didn't realize colleges charge fees in addition to tuition.

Hello?! Did you bother to look at the Cost of Attendance page on the college's website? It spells it all out. And, no, your full tuition scholarship doesn't cover fees or room/board. Crazy!

Then there are the parents who think their kid will qualify for in state tuition if they live at school year round. In many places, that is not enough. Don't count on it.

[Miguelsmom]

If our estimation is wrong in a negative way my son has to make some hard choices. Including sitting out a year to work full time to pay for school. Most likely even with his FA package he will have to work some. We'll help but we don't have much to help out with. We will not take out loans because even if we get approved there's no way we can pay it. He took/is taking all the classes he can take at a community college level. When/if he does get accepted he will probably work from that point on. I'm glad our college's have affordable Bachelors degrees about $100/credit cheaper then Universities. Meaning you can get a BS for just over $14k. However there's some as low as $10k.

[RootAnn]

... I thought this thread was going to be about Sugar Daddies as a way to pay tuition, speaking of breaking my heart. Creative but not a good way to pay the bills, people!!

[Frances]

18 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

... I thought this thread was going to be about Sugar Daddies as a way to pay tuition, speaking of breaking my heart. Creative but not a good way to pay the bills, people!!

Another bad way to pay college bills:

https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2019/07/bank-robber-says-he-held-up-keybank-to-get-money-for-daughters-college-expenses.html

[catz]

It is really sad.  I know a number of people in real life who launched their kids to schools they cannot actually afford and I can't believe it's going to haunt them for years to come. 

Please run those estimated price calculators and keep things real.  There is no dream school.  The dream is the degree and the ability to launch with an education.  There are hundreds if not thousands of great academic choices out there where you can have a great experience.  Please do not co sign for loans for your kids.  Please do not take out parent plus loans and assume your kids will be able to pay it back, especially if they are also taking federal loans.  Don't take out loans as a parent you cannot afford to pay back.  Please don't sacrifice your retirement/emergency savings.  Do some homework on subsequent years - does the school have a reputation of large increases?  Do you have an older kid graduating that would change your financial situation?  Suppose your kid changes major or transfers and adds a year?  Suppose they have a medical emergency and need to take a semester off?   Take younger kids into account.  It's only fair to offer all your kids similar opportunities.  Don't pigeon hole a younger kid to pick a fancier school for an older.  I've seen some really weird stuff posted by parents.

I've been following college boards a couple years now.  My oldest is launching next month.  He/we chose a zero debt for him and us option.  He is high stat and did apply for some reachy competitive merit options and he did have some options.  But when a flagship U threw unexpected merit at him while having the most approachable faculty, game over.  He would have loved to apply to need only elite schools and had the stats but was never going to work for us.  Anyway - very happy with the final price tag, less than we expected paying.  

And just be clear, I'm not anti student loan.  Students can use the federal loans (up to 27K over 4 years with a bump up if parents don't qualify for parent plus).  That debt level is pretty safe.  Take a parent loan if you as a parent can swing it and it fits well into your overall finances and YOU can pay it back.  Don't get sucked into an unafforadable debt level for a branded school.   As a parent, keep expectations realistic.  Your child can't force you to cosign or take out a parent plus.  That is on you.  Sometimes that means going back to the drawing board, looking at possibly CC/transfer options.  My kid dual enrolled at a CC for 2 years and had an excellent experience there.  

If you need some depressing reading material about college debt

Check out the reddit student loans page
https://www.reddit.com/r/StudentLoans/

https://studentloanhero.com/featured/psychological-effects-of-debt-survey-results/

https://www.chronicle.com/article/the-parent-loan-trap/134844

 

[Arcadia]

10 hours ago, RootAnn said:

... I thought this thread was going to be about Sugar Daddies as a way to pay tuition, speaking of breaking my heart. Creative but not a good way to pay the bills, people!!

 

Working in gentlemen’s club was an “in thing” in many countries when I went to college in the early 90s.  https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5474016

[G5052]

15 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I've been amazed at the parents who didn't realize colleges charge fees in addition to tuition.

Hello?! Did you bother to look at the Cost of Attendance page on the college's website? It spells it all out. And, no, your full tuition scholarship doesn't cover fees or room/board. Crazy!

Then there are the parents who think their kid will qualify for in state tuition if they live at school year round. In many places, that is not enough. Don't count on it.

 

Mine did community college and then are commuting to a four-year, and their fees are INSANE. The community college had no fees for application, orientation, registration, parking, or graduation. The four-year has fees in the hundreds of dollars for each of those aspects. Then there are technology fees, fees for their particular program, fees for the senior capstone course, and on and on. One of mine is in a program with scads of extra fees, and the other thankfully is not. 

One is going to need some help from me to get the tuition paid in the fall. Thankfully he covered all of last year and summer classes, but he's going to run short this semester. And then I pay 100% of the tuition and fees for my other one. And that's for commuter students. Eeeks!

[J-rap]

I also know parents who discussed it with their children ahead of time, telling their children that they'd (the children) be responsible for paying back any loans they took out, and walking them through it.  The children excitedly accepted, but without really understanding the repercussions of it.  And now the real world has hit them and they're in a tough spot.  I don't really blame the children so much.  It's hard to truly understand how this will affect you at age 18, when up until then everything has always worked out.  I do think a lot depends on the children's ambitions and their career interests.  For example, if they're aspiring to become a doctor and they're smart and hard-working, I wouldn't worry as much about them paying back loans.  If they're majoring in history and only an average student with no great ambitions (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's good to be aware), then taking out a lot of loans is probably not wise.  I think it's up to the parents to have an understanding of this and now how to advise them.

Edited July 20, 2019 by J-rap

[RootAnn]

19 minutes ago, G5052 said:

The four-year has fees in the hundreds of dollars for each of those aspects.

I think that some states that have tuition-payment programs (like Florida & Georgia) and schools that have very generous merit awards (like the U of Alabama-Huntsville but not U of Texas Dallas) use the fees to get more money out of students since some of them are not paying full tuition.

I'm used to lab fees and special class fees as well as student activity fees (for the health center, rec center, & concerts). But some places take it to the nth degree. The state 4 yr college where my eldest took classes had huge fees per credit hour but no parking cost. It was a strange dichotomy.

I'm very grateful that my eldest had the testing ability, personality, and interest (In terms of major & programs) to achieve a great scholarship package at a good school where, if she can keep up her grades, she will be very happy & not have to pay back loans. My next one doesn't test well & will try to work out ways to get a degree with debt but also without "going away" to college. Flexibilty, communication, hard work, and creativity. All are needed.

[Kassia]

13 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

 

I'm used to lab fees and special class fees as well as student activity fees (for the health center, rec center, & concerts). But some places take it to the nth degree.

 

My three sons attended a university that had huge fees for their fancy student union.  We ended up paying over $2,000 in fees while they were there.  I'm still bitter over it.  😛

  

[catz]

41 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I also know parents who discussed it with their children ahead of time, telling their children that they'd (the children) be responsible for paying back any loans they took out, and walking them through it.  The children excitedly accepted, but without really understanding the repercussions of it.  And now the real world has hit them and they're in a tough spot.  I don't really blame the children so much.  It's hard to truly understand how this will affect you at age 18, when up until then everything has always worked out.  I do think a lot depends on the children's ambitions and their career interests.  For example, if they're aspiring to become a doctor and they're smart and hard-working, I wouldn't worry as much about them paying back loans.  If they're majoring in history and only an average student with no great ambitions (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's good to be aware), then taking out a lot of loans is probably not wise.  I think it's up to the parents to have an understanding of this and now how to advise them.

I agree and totally think it's irresponsible as a parent to be cosigning for an undergrad loan unless it's very unique circumstances.  Most 18 year olds haven't even made payments to a credit card much less budgeting month after month of rent, utilities, food, clothing, insurance, etc and have no real context or experience to truly understand what they are getting into in terms of long term debt when they are just trying to launch.  Let alone considering taking a considering grad school, risky career opportunity, wanting to marry and possibly start a family, moving cross country, etc.  Parents would be much better off advising their kids toward cheaper options than cosigning a loan or taking out a loan they assume their kid is going to be able to take over at some point.  And I've seen parent/adult child relationships really hurt by those type of money situations too.  The only loans a student can take out are federal limits.  

Even smart, ambitious, hard working kids start down an undergrad pre-med path and end up down a different path.  I've seen data that 1/3-1/2+ of undergrad college students end up changing their major/path.  So even taking on undergrad debt assuming a particular income level will be there later is risky.  STEM majors are the most likely to change.  I went to a Big 10 engineering program and at least 50% dropped out of engineering.  If they're taking on well calculated debt for grad school, I think that is a different decision and at least students are fully responsible  and probably have a better grasp on financials and their direction at that point.   

Edited July 20, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Kassia]

45 minutes ago, J-rap said:

I also know parents who discussed it with their children ahead of time, telling their children that they'd (the children) be responsible for paying back any loans they took out, and walking them through it.  The children excitedly accepted, but without really understanding the repercussions of it.  And now the real world has hit them and they're in a tough spot.  I don't really blame the children so much.  It's hard to truly understand how this will affect you at age 18, when up until then everything has always worked out.  I do think a lot depends on the children's ambitions and their career interests.  For example, if they're aspiring to become a doctor and they're smart and hard-working, I wouldn't worry as much about them paying back loans.  If they're majoring in history and only an average student with no great ambitions (and I'm not saying that's a bad thing, just that it's good to be aware), then taking out a lot of loans is probably not wise.  I think it's up to the parents to have an understanding of this and now how to advise them.

 

This was me when I went to college.  I had no idea what any of the financial stuff meant.  I don't know that my parents did either - they didn't go to college and I was an only child so they had never sent a child to college before.  They only told me what they could afford to pay and I could decide between schools that were affordable to them but I didn't understand the loan part at all.  No regrets since I met DH in college but the college I attended was a bad decision financially due to the loans I took out.  

[Farrar]

I think everyone is just stuck thinking that college is the same as when we went. Expensive, but workable. Relatively easy to get in as long as you have your basic ducks in a row. Sigh.

[G5052]

37 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I agree and totally think it's irresponsible as a parent to be cosigning for an undergrad loan unless it's very unique circumstances.  Most 18 year olds haven't even made payments to a credit card much less budgeting month after month of rent, utilities, food, clothing, insurance, etc and have no real context or experience to truly understand what they are getting into in terms of long term debt when they are just trying to launch.  Let alone considering taking a considering grad school, risky career opportunity, wanting to marry and possibly start a family, moving cross country, etc.  Parents would be much better off advising their kids toward cheaper options than cosigning a loan or taking out a loan they assume their kid is going to be able to take over at some point.  And I've seen parent/adult child relationships really hurt by those type of money situations too.  The only loans a student can take out are federal limits.  

Even smart, ambitious, hard working kids start down an undergrad pre-med path and end up down a different path.  I've seen data that 1/3-1/2+ of undergrad college students end up changing their major/path.  So even taking on undergrad debt assuming a particular income level will be there later is risky.  STEM majors are the most likely to change.  I went to a Big 10 engineering program and at least 50% dropped out of engineering.  If they're taking on well calculated debt for grad school, I think that is a different decision and at least students are fully responsible  and probably have a better grasp on financials and their direction at that point.   

 

Believe it or not, mine both pretty much knew their majors in their first semester and haven't waivered. They are now a junior and a senior. So that helps immensely of course. My older added a pretty difficult minor that is going to stretch out his degree by a semester, but he's loving it. I'm fine of course with that.

I don't know if we'll have to borrow for my younger one at some point. It's a concern, but I'll pay for the fall soon and take it from there. The federal amount would probably cover what I'm concerned about.

[catz]

I suspect my oldest will probably be all in with his first major.  He is considering double major.  TBD what the 2nd major will be but is coming in with enough credits to experiment a little these first 2 semesters.  I changed major twice, but my majors were closely related so I didn't lose too much time.  My brother never changed majors.  But lost some credits studying abroad so needed to add a semester.  I just think it can be hard ahead of time to know which kids are going to switch. 

I even know some engineering majors that took the road not traveled after graduating.  Joined the peace corp, took an off beat more financially risky opportunity at a start up, helped start a business, etc.  There are lots of advantages to not being buried in debt upon graduation and needing to meet some income level you imagined 4-5 years ago.  I think assuming a certain income level upon graduation can be risky if you're using that number to decide to take on additional co-signed loans, etc.  Markets that are be hot now can cool.  Students graduating into times of higher unemployment/recession can suffer for that for many years after.  

Like I said, I'm not anti student loan.  I'm pro responsible student loan.  I think the federal loans are a nice guideline that will not be crippling for most.  Taking out a car size loan is reasonable.  Taking out a luxury car to condo to house sized loan for an undergrad degree is probably not reasonable.  But may be ok for that accomplished student accepted to med school signing off on it themselves.  I hope most parents understand what kind of debt they can and are willing to take on to help their kids and it's ok if that number needs to be zero.   Actually, one of the best things we did was work with a financial advisor when my oldest was a high school freshman to get our ducks in a row.  He gave us a number in mind for college that is MUCH less than our EFC given our age to retirement and current situation and assets/investments.  I think EFC's may not actually be reasonable or responsible for many families at many schools.   The fact that schools can determine your "need" based on any equation they deem appropriate shows how messed up it is.   

Edited July 20, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Matryoshka]

41 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 The fact that schools can determine your "need" based on any equation they deem appropriate shows how messed up it is.   

Yep.  That $85K/year school is a 'meets full need' school, but again, reading the fine print it turns out that according to them you don't have need unless you've

• - drained your retirement account
• - taken out a home equity line
• - and 70% of the crazy number they consider available for you to pay for college is all for the kid attending their school.  All the rest of your kids get what's left over.

[daijobu]

4 hours ago, Kassia said:

 

This was me when I went to college.  I had no idea what any of the financial stuff meant.  

 

This reminds me of a bit by John Mulaney about college costs.  (A warning about languauge.)

"By the way, I agreed to give them $120,000 when I was 17 years old.  

"With no attorney present.  

"That's illegal."  

 

[FriedClams]

I have a soon-to-be freshman. We were very clear about what we'd pay, and that there would not be student loans. It is inconceivable to me how private colleges stay in business. We've been very clear with our kids that, sadly, colleges are businesses. They sell a commodity. They make money or they don't stay in business. It's a sad reality for me as I grew up in an academic-loving family, but one you have to very frankly accept as you go into the process. The less emotion in the process, the better.

 

As a curious aside, I wonder where college loans stack up monetarily compared to pay day loans over the life of the loan...

[Farrar]

The idea of no loans at all is too restrictive to me. I really do think a responsible kid should take out the "about a car loan" metric of loans if it allows them to go somewhere that will be right for them.

I said about that too many people think it'll be just like when we all went and so many of us had our parents pay. Dh and I both had parents who paid most of our college costs. I'd love to be able to do that for my kids, but I'm also realistic. Still, I feel like there's a place in between "you can go anywhere you can get in" and "you can't take out any loans and this amount is absolutely and completely it." 

[teachermom2834]

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The idea of no loans at all is too restrictive to me. I really do think a responsible kid should take out the "about a car loan" metric of loans if it allows them to go somewhere that will be right for them.

I said about that too many people think it'll be just like when we all went and so many of us had our parents pay. Dh and I both had parents who paid most of our college costs. I'd love to be able to do that for my kids, but I'm also realistic. Still, I feel like there's a place in between "you can go anywhere you can get in" and "you can't take out any loans and this amount is absolutely and completely it." 

Totally agree! My oldest will have under $20,000 in loans and his experience has been transformational. He has been making a nice hourly rate as an intern before he even graduates. If he makes even close to that rate as a full time employee (and he expects to make more) his loan payments will be a small fraction of his income. He will make back that amount in salary quickly. No brainer that it will pay off for him. He could have lived at home and commuted with no loans but he would not be positioned where he is now. 

Second ds will have closer to $25,000. I wish it was less but it should be manageable for him. He is in a major city working for a professional sports organization (dream job for him really) while he gets his degree. Absolutely no comparable opportunity for him locally.

Also- I think we will have our future college students take some loans even if we could stretch to pay. There are other things dh and I can do with that money that could benefit our family more in the short term. 

There is no one size fits all in these things. For us, the loans have given mine opportunities they wouldn’t have otherwise. They have freed up money for us to do other things beneficial to our family. It gives our kids skin in the game too. We have told ours we would help pay them off if we could, if they completed their degree. 

Another side note on loans- I have had multiple acquaintances work hard to help their children avoid loans only to have the kids drop out, get in trouble, etc. Now, I don’t think it is a lack of loans that caused trouble for their kids. But what I do see is greater resentment on the part of the parents that they worked so hard and paid so much for nothing. It causes greater strain in the relationship than if the kids had wasted their own money. This kind of colors my thinking. I have my kids handle as much as possible themselves (loans, jobs). Dh and I help a lot but if one drops out I won’t be keeping a tab in my head of huge sums of money I wasted. And they will be the ones paying back loans for school they never completed.

Moderate student debt is not always a bad choice. Some kids and families just don’t have a ton of other options. 

 

[MysteryJen]

We worked out what we could afford to pay first and THEN targeted places for each individual child where they would get enough merit or athletic to bring the cost down to that level with the federal student loans (a very reasonable amount to borrow for an undergraduate degree). No fancy prestigious schools- but good fits, financial and otherwise. Ds1's loan payment is very reasonable and ds2 will have the same. 

Our girls secured athletic scholarships that were very generous and dd1 graduated with no loans and dd2 will as well. What amazes me is the number of people who are chasing roster spots at schools where they are not good enough to get any athletic money. To be clear, their parents will be paying full out-of-state tuition for their child to be at the bottom of the roster, no travel, and at the mercy of being cut every 3 months. Insanity- when these girls are good enough to get real money at lower ranked schools. 

I guess it really is all about the instagram shot.

[Farrar]

We're in the usual position of getting money for any state school, but having no state schools of our own. When you don't have the option of state schools, it really limits you if you're not willing to do any loans at all.

[...................]

26 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The idea of no loans at all is too restrictive to me. I really do think a responsible kid should take out the "about a car loan" metric of loans if it allows them to go somewhere that will be right for them.

I said about that too many people think it'll be just like when we all went and so many of us had our parents pay. Dh and I both had parents who paid most of our college costs. I'd love to be able to do that for my kids, but I'm also realistic. Still, I feel like there's a place in between "you can go anywhere you can get in" and "you can't take out any loans and this amount is absolutely and completely it." 

 

I agree. We will have some loans for our oldest and he will have some in his own name but the monthly amounts are reasonable, under 200ish per month payments. 

For our youngest our goal is to have no loans at all because her ROU is not high, and therefore we don’t want to set her up for having to pay loans in her own name. And because we assume we will be helping her with getting herself started in life (again because her ROI/future pay is small), we don’t want the added expense for ourselves. 

If you can afford the loan payments and have backups plans in case of disability, there is no reason to say “no loans ever.”

 

[Matryoshka]

44 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The idea of no loans at all is too restrictive to me. I really do think a responsible kid should take out the "about a car loan" metric of loans if it allows them to go somewhere that will be right for them.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that, especially in regard to the 'standard' student loans.  Just to be thoughtful about it.  My dd who's in CompSci had the option to go to a school where she would have taken out loans to fill the gap between what we could cover and the full cost. She would even have been probably able to pay off much of them by the time she graduated using coop earnings.  But she decided herself to go to another school where we could cover the whole thing.  She still has coop earnings, but she's able to save it for herself.  But honestly the other path would have been fine too.

The 'about a car loan' seems reasonable for careers that have a secure salary on the other end.  Even with the dice roll that a lot of kids do drop out of those majors... But I still think it's nuts for degrees in art or music or theater or creative writing where it's likely you'll have to work as a barista for years while trying to break in to your dream career, if you ever do at all.  Because at minimum wage, even that amount can be crushing.  And besides, honestly in those careers most people don't care if you have a degree in it as long as you can do it well.  But that's just my opinion...  I feel like the majority of the IRL homeschoolers I know are majoring in one of those.  I have no idea how it's being funded...  And it could well be the right decision for some kids in some families, but there sure are a *lot* of theater/art/music kids out there competing for very few living-wage jobs while already being in debt.  You have a lot more ability to work on your artistic stuff if you don't have to worry about bringing in enough money for food/shelter AND paying off debt. 

Edited July 21, 2019 by Matryoshka

[catz]

45 minutes ago, Farrar said:

We're in the usual position of getting money for any state school, but having no state schools of our own. When you don't have the option of state schools, it really limits you if you're not willing to do any loans at all.

Ugh that stinks and seems supremely unfair.  I actually wish the public system was open to many more exchanges or "open borders". 

I feel grateful we live in a state that not only has decent state options but reciprocity with some neighboring states.  My kid is going to a neighboring state's flagship.  We did have a couple privates come within price point of the flagships with merit.  And we were definitely hoped to be at the price point of the flagships.  So we're grateful to have come in a bit lower than that.

But then 2 flagships gave him generous and somewhat rare merit (our state, neighboring state).  

He auditioned for music programs and almost every music teacher he came in contact with asked him straight up if he was auditioning for these 2 flagships.  I absolutely think it affected his audition results that he said yes.    LOL - no matter.  

ETA - and to be clear we did consider letting him take student loans if there had been a fit that was over the pricepoint of the flagships.  And we had a little flex on the numbers and kept an open mind through the process.  But both the numbers and music faculty fit came in pretty clear.  And he's also a kid considering grad school so less to no debt with the music double major is definitely preferable.  But I'd still encourage low to no debt for a STEM kid if possible.  Both DH and I have comp sci degrees and graduated without debt and it has given us much more financial freedom as adults from the get go.  But I get that is not possible for everyone.  I am in favor of greatly improving funding for public colleges and making them much more affordable/accessible across the boards.  Some states are doing much better with this than others.  

Edited July 21, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[chiguirre]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

We're in the usual position of getting money for any state school, but having no state schools of our own. When you don't have the option of state schools, it really limits you if you're not willing to do any loans at all.

How often do people move to the burbs to get in-state tuition to VA and MD schools? It seems like a no brainer to flee the "Taxation with no Representation" city before college.

[madteaparty]

Nm 

Edited July 21, 2019 by madteaparty

[Farrar]

38 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

How often do people move to the burbs to get in-state tuition to VA and MD schools? It seems like a no brainer to flee the "Taxation with no Representation" city before college.

People used to flee for the k12 schools, but not so much anymore. I’ve literally never heard of anyone leaving for the in state tuition. You’d have to move four years before college if you went to Virginia because they’re basically jerks about high school credit.

The $ can be used for cc once a student graduates so the two closest cc’s come out about the same. And the city does do this cool thing called something like “the last bit” or something... where they pay that last little gap between your package and what you can pay - up to a couple thousand a year for four years if you apply. 

[catz]

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

The 'about a car loan' seems reasonable for careers that have a secure salary on the other end.  Even with the dice roll that a lot of kids do drop out of those majors... But I still think it's nuts for degrees in art or music or theater or creative writing where it's likely you'll have to work as a barista for years while trying to break in to your dream career, if you ever do at all.  Because at minimum wage, even that amount can be crushing.  And besides, honestly in those careers most people don't care if you have a degree in it as long as you can do it well.  But that's just my opinion...  I feel like the majority of the IRL homeschoolers I know are majoring in one of those.  I have no idea how it's being funded...  And it could well be the right decision for some kids in some families, but there sure are a *lot* of theater/art/music kids out there competing for very few living-wage jobs while already being in debt.  You have a lot more ability to work on your artistic stuff if you don't have to worry about bringing in enough money for food/shelter AND paying off debt. 

Since I have a kid launching to a music program, I just wanted to say the "you're going to be a barista until you hit your dream job" has not really been part of the discussion for us.  I have a kid that started piano at 5 and theater related classes and workshops about the same age.  We are in an arts rich metro area.  My kids have worked with many working performing artists over the years.  Many of them may perform.  But they're also teaching, directing, writing, composing, grant writing, starting small start ups/non-profits, collaborating, constantly networking, etc etc etc.  That is the discussion we had with my kid when he said he wanted to audition for music programs.  Can you see yourself in many of those roles?  Or is the dream just the met/Broadway and nothing else will do?  We do know young people living in New York and our metro right now working the arts.  And they are performing but they're also do a bunch of other things too.  

My kid has done youth, community to professional theater.  He is doing a 6 week run of a professional musical right now that has unpaid intern youth actors but paid adult professionals.  It went out on a tour briefly.  He was featured on local news/interviewed,etc.  So reasonable experience level right?  He's done paid recording work as a pianist and vocalist.  He's worked at a couple other other performing arts related internships.  He's been in probably at least 25 auditioned shows since age 10.  And taken 23 years of music lessons across 2 instruments and voice.  But we know kids that have just started that jump right in and say they want to do this in college after a single show or 2.  That kid I'd encourage a gap year to explore and have a close look at what the reality of that looks like for most and go out and audition against people who do this all the time.  And a fair number will likely change path unless they feel successful in their college setting.   Music programs have a fairly high drop out rates.  

We also saw kids out on the college audition circuit that were really sad over the audition process.  Kids sobbing in hallways and devastated.  If auditioning is that hard and emotional for you, it may be not for you?  I talked to a theater parent recently about how we limited financial options for college and she acted like we were depriving our kid oxygen.  

I don't actually consider a choice to pursue a music degree "worse" or riskier than almost any other humanities undergrad degree.  I was not wild about BFA theater programs for this kid because those are extremely narrow and almost like choosing to be a college athlete.  That didn't feel like the right fit for this kid who is also quite academic and wanted to take other academic classes.    Music students can go on to law school, med school, etc.  My son's voice teacher is teaching someone with a BM Vocal Performance that is finishing med school right now.  I'm not saying I expect my kid to take one of those paths.  I just know a lot of adults with music degrees who've done just fine in life and aren't living in the street or making coffee at Starbucks full time.  Some doing artistic things professionally and some doing other things.  

Having toured a very range of schools and really dug into programming, faculty, facilities,etc, no school felt remotely worth 3-4x what we are paying.

Edited July 21, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Farrar]

Several people in this thread have said "no loans." So, that's definitely what I'm responding to. Yeah, everyone says, I have a reason. But... I just think the pendulum has swung too far on this.

[catz]

1 minute ago, Farrar said:

Several people in this thread have said "no loans." So, that's definitely what I'm responding to. Yeah, everyone says, I have a reason. But... I just think the pendulum has swung too far on this.

In general in the real world, you think the pendulum has swung too far toward no loans?  Because that is not my experience in real life at all.  69% of students have student loans of some kind.  I think people are barely just starting to take notice about how colleges keep jacking up prices, states keep cutting funding on publics, and predatory lenders are happy to give out money.  While the market will bear it, prices will continue going up.

I think no loans are nice if you can swing it.  But I think what kids can take out on their own is reasonable.  And if my kid insisted on taking them to pick a more expensive school, I wouldn't fight too hard on it.  However, I would sit down with the kid for a few hours to punch the numbers on what that would look like post college while trying to launch.  Not everyone has a no/low loan option available to them.  I assume people are doing the best they  can with the resources and options they have available to them.  

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

[Sebastian (a lady)]

36 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Since I have a kid launching to a music program, I just wanted to say the "you're going to be a barista until you hit your dream job" has not really been part of the discussion for us.  I have a kid that started piano at 5 and theater related classes and workshops about the same age.  We are in an arts rich metro area.  My kids have worked with many working performing artists over the years.  Many of them may perform.  But they're also teaching, directing, writing, composing, grant writing, starting small start ups/non-profits, collaborating, constantly networking, etc etc etc.  That is the discussion we had with my kid when he said he wanted to audition for music programs.  Can you see yourself in many of those roles?  Or is the dream just the met/Broadway and nothing else will do?  We do know young people living in New York and our metro right now working the arts.  And they are performing but they're also do a bunch of other things too.  

My kid has done youth, community to professional theater.  He is doing a 6 week run of a professional musical right now that has unpaid intern youth actors but paid adult professionals.  It went out on a tour briefly.  He was featured on local news/interviewed,etc.  So reasonable experience level right?  He's done paid recording work as a pianist and vocalist.  He's worked at a couple other other performing arts related internships.  He's been in probably at least 25 auditioned shows since age 10.  And taken 23 years of music lessons across 2 instruments and voice.  But we know kids that have just started that jump right in and say they want to do this in college after a single show or 2.  That kid I'd encourage a gap year to explore and have a close look at what the reality of that looks like for most and go out and audition against people who do this all the time.  And a fair number will likely change path unless they feel successful in their college setting.   Music programs have a fairly high drop out rates.  

We also saw kids out on the college audition circuit that were really sad over the audition process.  Kids sobbing in hallways and devastated.  If auditioning is that hard and emotional for you, it may be not for you?  I talked to a theater parent recently about how we limited financial options for college and she acted like we were depriving our kid oxygen.  

I don't actually consider a choice to pursue a music degree "worse" or riskier than almost any other humanities undergrad degree.  I was not wild about BFA theater programs for this kid because those are extremely narrow and almost like choosing to be a college athlete.  That didn't feel like the right fit for this kid who is also quite academic and wanted to take other academic classes.    Music students can go on to law school, med school, etc.  My son's voice teacher is teaching someone with a BM Vocal Performance that is finishing med school right now.  I'm not saying I expect my kid to take one of those paths.  I just know a lot of adults with music degrees who've done just fine in life and aren't living in the street or making coffee at Starbucks full time.  Some doing artistic things professionally and some doing other things.  

Having toured a very range of schools and really dug into programming, faculty, facilities,etc, no school felt remotely worth 3-4x what we are paying.

 

I really appreciate your comments, especially the bolded.  I think this is a really mature way of approaching a potentially competitive field.

 

[Farrar]

Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

In general in the real world, you think the pendulum has swung too far toward no loans?  Because that is not my experience in real life at all.  69% of students have student loans of some kind.  I think people are barely just starting to take notice about how colleges keep jacking up prices, states keep cutting funding on publics, and predatory lenders are happy to give out money.  While the market will bear it, prices will continue going up.

I think no loans are nice if you can swing it.  But I think what kids can take out on their own is reasonable.  And if my kid insisted on taking them to pick a more expensive school, I wouldn't fight too hard on it.  However, I would sit down with the kid for a few hours to punch the numbers on what that would look like post college while trying to launch.  Not everyone has a no/low loan option available to them.  I assume people are doing the best they  can with the resources and options they have available to them.  

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

I think the rhetoric has swung pretty far. I don't know that, when it comes down to it, people are making that decision in reality. And certainly, with more people who college was closed to a generation ago now attending college (yay), more people are probably taking out loans overall. I don't doubt that. But I see more people being like no loans ever. My kid could never pay it back. I refuse to saddle my kid with any debt whatsoever! And so on. In this thread, two people have said no loans for my kid essentially because they can't handle it.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

1 minute ago, FuzzyCatz said:

In general in the real world, you think the pendulum has swung too far toward no loans?  Because that is not my experience in real life at all.  69% of students have student loans of some kind.  I think people are barely just starting to take notice about how colleges keep jacking up prices, states keep cutting funding on publics, and predatory lenders are happy to give out money.  While the market will bear it, prices will continue going up.

I think no loans are nice if you can swing it.  But I think what kids can take out on their own is reasonable.  And if my kid insisted on taking them to pick a more expensive school, I wouldn't fight too hard on it.  However, I would sit down with the kid for a few hours to punch the numbers on what that would look like post college while trying to launch.  Not everyone has a no/low loan option available to them.  I assume people are doing the best they  can with the resources and options they have available to them.  

https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/

 

I think that within the realm of homeschoolers, there is a higher than typical likelihood that a family will consider graduating with no debt of higher importance than the type or quality of the degree itself.  In other words, I've been part of many conversations in which a parent says that all that matters is that the kid have some kind of degree and no debt, but that there is NO advantage to getting one degree over another or attending one school over another - other than the ability to graduate debt free.  (There is also an overlap with certain religious and political leanings in my experience.)  And I'm not talking about families who are looking at their expenses over several kids and making budgetary decisions.  I'm talking about people for whom the lack of debt is its own goal, even if a small debt (car sized is a good comparison) would get a substantially improved college credential. 

Absolutely there are also families who don't look at net price calculators until much later than they should, or who make assumptions about affordability that aren't backed up by facts.  That is its own irrationality.  I think the commonality between the two extremes is prioritizing one factor of fit over all the others, regardless of the long term consequences.

[Sneezyone]

On 7/20/2019 at 11:15 AM, Arcadia said:

 

Working in gentlemen’s club was an “in thing” in many countries when I went to college in the early 90s.  https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5474016

 

It still is here. I know someone who funded her BA, MA, and now her PhD by working as an erotic content creator and online English teacher for Chinese kids.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Sneezyone

[catz]

22 minutes ago, Sebastian (a lady) said:

 

I think that within the realm of homeschoolers, there is a higher than typical likelihood that a family will consider graduating with no debt of higher importance than the type or quality of the degree itself.  In other words, I've been part of many conversations in which a parent says that all that matters is that the kid have some kind of degree and no debt, but that there is NO advantage to getting one degree over another or attending one school over another - other than the ability to graduate debt free.  (There is also an overlap with certain religious and political leanings in my experience.)  And I'm not talking about families who are looking at their expenses over several kids and making budgetary decisions.  I'm talking about people for whom the lack of debt is its own goal, even if a small debt (car sized is a good comparison) would get a substantially improved college credential. 

Absolutely there are also families who don't look at net price calculators until much later than they should, or who make assumptions about affordability that aren't backed up by facts.  That is its own irrationality.  I think the commonality between the two extremes is prioritizing one factor of fit over all the others, regardless of the long term consequences.

I see what you're getting at and that's not us either.  We certainly would have cheaper and even substantially cheaper options given my kid's stats.  I did hope my oldest would end up somewhere he can connect with a geeky social group, he was very picky about program quality and faculty and I think he will be fine.  Honestly, I personally didn't even enjoy college that much so if he can find appropriately geeky people to hang out with socially he will be one up on me.

That said, my kid did 2 years dual enroll at a urban public CC with teachers that also teach at private schools whose names are regularly seen on prestigious private school lists that are much more expensive.  All his credits transferred to the flagship school.  And I do know a fair number of people who went to midwestern directional publics that ended up in highly rated grad school programs.  So I think there are highly affordable gems out there to be had.  You do need to do your homework and know what you're looking for in the particulars of individual programs.  

ETA - my DH has 2 degrees from a flagship and works and manages people that graduated from MIT every day (his company is based in Boston).  So if you can get that MIT degree in an affordable range for you, that's great.  But if you can't, that's great too. I really don't think it's particularly life limiting for smart people with a work ethic if you program shop carefully.  

Edited July 21, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[teachermom2834]

In my circles any college discussion usually ends with “the most important thing is no debt”. 

I had one friend tell me there is no degree, no school, anywhere that is worth even a penny of debt.

This is absolutely the prevailing thought among homeschoolers I interact with. I guess I look at net price vs debt though. Is the net price reasonable? If it is a number we are comfortable with spending overall for the degree, that’s great. We may choose to finance it with student loans but I’m not sure why our family is extravagant and foolish for paying $40,000 for degree with some debt vs someone who paid cash for a $80,000 degree. 

We wouldn’t have even been able to dream of our life without my dh’s student loans. My kids are booksmart but wouldn’t be good in trades. Neither had a plan to start his own business. I don’t know what they would be doing without a degree.

I would love to have been able to give the gift to my children of a debt free college education.  But it just wasn’t realistic or even the best use of available dollars. 

When people discuss college debt it is as if they lump the $20,000 federal loan debt and the $200,000 private loan debt in the same category. There is something in between “no debt ever under any circumstance” and “take loans to pay dream school”. 

[...................]

We must be in so very different circles...

but if that’s the case you’ll need to be a voice of reason to your friends in the opposite vein, that small manageable amounts of debt are worthwhile for certain kids and certain situations (depending on ability to pay the bill of course) 

[Farrar]

See, this is what I mean about the rhetoric having swung too far. I absolutely believe that college debt is not a great thing and that getting a degree is more important than a specific degree and that "cheaper" colleges like community colleges can be just as good.

But it's individual. If a kid is pushed to attend a school without a social vibe where they'll fit in, without the sort of supports that will help them individually, without the sorts of courses or a path of study that will actually motivate and engage them, without the level of training that they actually might want and need for their chosen path... then they're more likely to drop out or fail. It's just the height of irony that homeschoolers, who insist on customizing their kids' K12 educations to the nth degree, could even imagine that all college experiences are created equal.

It's a balance. And everyone should go in with their eyes open. And kids should be strongly dissuaded if not forbidden from signing for massive amounts of debt. And they should look at their earnings potentials and all that stuff to open their eyes up. But they should also consider their happiness and their hopes and everything they're striving for.

[catz]

Well, I walk into some weird circles.  There are a contingency of local homeschoolers that think paying for an out of state flagship is nuts.  And then other urban circles we walk that think my kid is surely suffering some irreparable harm and injustice by not attending a branded coast private school.   On the upside, at least people are passive aggressive instead of outwardly horrified and probing in the Midwest.  😂  As with many things in life, you do you.  The school I imagined for my kid 2 years ago is far different from the one he is actually attending.  Once we really started comparing options I learned a bunch I didn't expect when we started.  He's going to a music program where much of the music faculty is Julliard or Eastman trained.  Absolutely nothing to complain about there.   We heard some mediocre musicians at the fanciest private schools we looked at and  some amazing musicians at little known schools.  

I truly have no judgment on other people's final choices.  However, all of us as a society pay when people default on their loans.  Something like 25% of students are defaulting on loans right now.  I'd rather as a nation we just invested in quality affordable options for college ready students.  Until my fantasies are realized, I hope people do the best they can for their particular kids given their particular finances. 

We may decide take out a short term parent loan between 2 kids to spread out the burden.  We intentionally paid off our mortgage this year so we have no debt at all at the moment.  But like I said, not anti loan.  Pro smart, responsible loan.  

[G5052]

53 minutes ago, Farrar said:

See, this is what I mean about the rhetoric having swung too far. I absolutely believe that college debt is not a great thing and that getting a degree is more important than a specific degree and that "cheaper" colleges like community colleges can be just as good.

But it's individual. If a kid is pushed to attend a school without a social vibe where they'll fit in, without the sort of supports that will help them individually, without the sorts of courses or a path of study that will actually motivate and engage them, without the level of training that they actually might want and need for their chosen path... then they're more likely to drop out or fail. It's just the height of irony that homeschoolers, who insist on customizing their kids' K12 educations to the nth degree, could even imagine that all college experiences are created equal.

It's a balance. And everyone should go in with their eyes open. And kids should be strongly dissuaded if not forbidden from signing for massive amounts of debt. And they should look at their earnings potentials and all that stuff to open their eyes up. But they should also consider their happiness and their hopes and everything they're striving for.

 

Yes, very individual as long as you are realistic.

Unless the planets all align, my youngest may have to take out around a smallish-car-purchase-amount of loans. That's not bad at all IMHO. She has decent potential and plans to live with me and work, so paying that off within a fairly short period of time is completely possible. We'll see what 2020 brings.

When I was in research, I had a wonderful summer student. He was living at home and going to an excellent state school. His parents said they'd pay everything in that situation, but he had to take it from there. He got into Harvard Medical school and then trained at Mayo Clinic. He works in Los Angeles and is a superstar. I've seen him on CNN. Totally worth it to borrow. 

I appreciate that everyone makes their choices, but my kids have a friend who just graduated with six figures in loans. He's living at home and working in food service. I get that he's working on options, but the loans are still there.

[Matryoshka]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Since I have a kid launching to a music program, I just wanted to say the "you're going to be a barista until you hit your dream job" has not really been part of the discussion for us.  I have a kid that started piano at 5 and theater related classes and workshops about the same age.  We are in an arts rich metro area.  My kids have worked with many working performing artists over the years.  Many of them may perform.  But they're also teaching, directing, writing, composing, grant writing, starting small start ups/non-profits, collaborating, constantly networking, etc etc etc.  That is the discussion we had with my kid when he said he wanted to audition for music programs.  Can you see yourself in many of those roles?  Or is the dream just the met/Broadway and nothing else will do?  We do know young people living in New York and our metro right now working the arts.  And they are performing but they're also do a bunch of other things too.  

My kid has done youth, community to professional theater.  He is doing a 6 week run of a professional musical right now that has unpaid intern youth actors but paid adult professionals.  It went out on a tour briefly.  He was featured on local news/interviewed,etc.  So reasonable experience level right?  He's done paid recording work as a pianist and vocalist.  He's worked at a couple other other performing arts related internships.  He's been in probably at least 25 auditioned shows since age 10.  And taken 23 years of music lessons across 2 instruments and voice.  But we know kids that have just started that jump right in and say they want to do this in college after a single show or 2.  That kid I'd encourage a gap year to explore and have a close look at what the reality of that looks like for most and go out and audition against people who do this all the time.  And a fair number will likely change path unless they feel successful in their college setting.   Music programs have a fairly high drop out rates.  

I did not mean to imply that the arts are not a worthy professional goal.  Just what you're saying here - to go in with your eyes open and know that at least to get established, it may take cobbling together various jobs, most of which (especially at first) may be low-paying - and yeah, that's much easier to do if you're not saddled with debt.  There are lots of paid arts gigs, but ones that are full-time with benefits and will pay for food, rent and a student-loan to boot right out of school aren't that easy to come by.   And ironically, these Arts schools seem to have some of the highest levels of student debt.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

4 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I see what you're getting at and that's not us either.  We certainly would have cheaper and even substantially cheaper options given my kid's stats.  I did hope my oldest would end up somewhere he can connect with a geeky social group, he was very picky about program quality and faculty and I think he will be fine.  Honestly, I personally didn't even enjoy college that much so if he can find appropriately geeky people to hang out with socially he will be one up on me.

That said, my kid did 2 years dual enroll at a urban public CC with teachers that also teach at private schools whose names are regularly seen on prestigious private school lists that are much more expensive.  All his credits transferred to the flagship school.  And I do know a fair number of people who went to midwestern directional publics that ended up in highly rated grad school programs.  So I think there are highly affordable gems out there to be had.  You do need to do your homework and know what you're looking for in the particulars of individual programs.  

ETA - my DH has 2 degrees from a flagship and works and manages people that graduated from MIT every day (his company is based in Boston).  So if you can get that MIT degree in an affordable range for you, that's great.  But if you can't, that's great too. I really don't think it's particularly life limiting for smart people with a work ethic if you program shop carefully.  

There are definitely good educations to be had without incurring high debt.  There are many schools that will serve students well, outside of those that show up on top ten lists (which reflect popularity and name recognition rather than student outcomes).

What I'm referring to is an attitude towards college that claims a degree that is primarily online or self-studied and may be reliant on CLEP tests is as good as in person courses with expert professors in well appointed facilities.  It's an attitude that says a degree is a degree is a degree.

[MerryAtHope]

On 7/19/2019 at 9:35 PM, Calming Tea said:

It breaks my heart to see how many people on the Facebook pages for my son's university allowed their child to apply, encouraged them to visit, and ACCEPT admissions and literally, I mean quite literally had no idea how to pay, or that they would HAVE TO pay...

I am so thankful my sister warned us a few years back how expensive it is, and that we would not get any federal subsidized loans...and I am thankful for the parents here who've been explaining over and over that, you know, college is really, and I mean really expensive.

We have people right now,... with their kid 5 weeks from going to college.... saying that they cannot pay, cannot afford the loan payments if they use Parent Plus and don't even have a backup plan (for example, we knew we could take out the equity in our home, if our son had gotten into one of the pricier schools...)....These people are quite literally having to make a choice between telling their child that it was all a mistake and they'd have to go to community college after all, after the  student got all their hopes up, bought the tee shirt, told all of their friends, and made all of the announcements OR ....the parent will have 40,000 loans that they know they can't afford...one of them decided to tell the student they'd pay for one year and then she'd have to find another way, move back home, join ROTC, something...some of the parents have figured out many ways to make it work such as grandparent help, the student getting a job at food services or downtown, taking on an extra job of their own...but all at this last minute...

....very scary 

 

It is so sad! I do totally get how people could get to their child's junior or even senior year in high school without knowing (and sadly that can be too late in the process if the student wants to go right after high school), but it always really surprises me once they start the application process that people don't at least look up what school costs. I guess I take for granted being involved and being on the "nosy" side! But how sad to be 5 weeks out and not realizing until that point what the costs are. 

On 7/20/2019 at 4:02 PM, Farrar said:

I think everyone is just stuck thinking that college is the same as when we went. Expensive, but workable. Relatively easy to get in as long as you have your basic ducks in a row. Sigh.

Yes, this exactly. I'm thankful for forums like this one that alerted me when my oldest was in 6th or 7th grade to start really looking at things--it's not like when I went to school on a Pell grant, my summer job, and working during the year! I might not have known until later in my kids' high school years otherwise. 

[Penguin]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:57 PM, teachermom2834 said:

 

Oh well. Most people don’t want to hear my thoughts on college admissions and financing so I save it for the people I really love. 🙂

Liking this was not enough. So true.

[-M-]

On 7/19/2019 at 10:57 PM, teachermom2834 said:

Oh well. Most people don’t want to hear my thoughts on college admissions and financing so I save it for the people I really love. 🙂

 

Ayup.

Most people didn’t want to hear my advice sixteen years ago, when I first maintained that college would not happen at the expense of my well-being and retirement. 

They probably don’t want to hear it now that my daughters have graduated. Heh, heh, heh.

In an unrelated discussion, a poster pointed out that, on a plane in an emergency, you must put on your oxygen mask before you can fruitfully help others. Yet a frightening number of parents fail to don their financial oxygen masks. Worse, un(der)prepared for retirement and already living at (or above) their means, some help their children choose colleges based on a fatal combination of flawed advice from guidance counselors and admissions representatives and what will fly in their social circles. They maintain that it’s worth the cost for their kid to “follow his dream,” and they sign on to pay and pay and pay.

The results will be disastrous.

 

Edited July 22, 2019 by Melissa M

[G5052]

11 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

Yes, this exactly. I'm thankful for forums like this one that alerted me when my oldest was in 6th or 7th grade to start really looking at things--it's not like when I went to school on a Pell grant, my summer job, and working during the year! I might not have known until later in my kids' high school years otherwise. 

 

Yes, over thirty years ago, I was able to pay for college and live in the dorms with a summer job, scholarships, working as an RA, and taking on odd jobs. I also was physically very worn down and sick when I graduated. It took me over a year to recover. If I had grasped that, I would have borrowed some.

But higher education is proportionally much more expensive. I worked in retail myself recently, and even with being pretty much available seven days a week, my pay wouldn't have covered a year of tuition and fees at the four-year state school mine attend, much less car insurance, books, etc. I worked with some college students and most of them were on grants and/or loans and then working for everything else.

The ACA eliminated some work because employers don't want to pay benefits, and that's a factor too. Employers are limiting hours and having more and more part-time jobs versus full-time work. When I was in college, I worked what I worked, and I could get overtime, which helped a lot. Now employers will usually send you home when you get close to the limits if you are part-time so they don't violate the ACA.

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Farrar said:

See, this is what I mean about the rhetoric having swung too far. I absolutely believe that college debt is not a great thing and that getting a degree is more important than a specific degree and that "cheaper" colleges like community colleges can be just as good.

But it's individual. If a kid is pushed to attend a school without a social vibe where they'll fit in, without the sort of supports that will help them individually, without the sorts of courses or a path of study that will actually motivate and engage them, without the level of training that they actually might want and need for their chosen path... then they're more likely to drop out or fail. It's just the height of irony that homeschoolers, who insist on customizing their kids' K12 educations to the nth degree, could even imagine that all college experiences are created equal.

It's a balance. And everyone should go in with their eyes open. And kids should be strongly dissuaded if not forbidden from signing for massive amounts of debt. And they should look at their earnings potentials and all that stuff to open their eyes up. But they should also consider their happiness and their hopes and everything they're striving for.

I think my DD has absorbed too much fear of college being unaffordable, to the point that she is only looking at schools where her stats qualify her for significant merit aid. Now, that is great (and as long as FL and AL and AZ keep their good deals for out of state high star kids, she has some good options)-but it also means she really isn’t considering any school that isn’t a safety, and usually a “probably closer to the top 5% than the top 25% of their admitted students” safety. 

Now, she has had a good experience at the local CC, where she has been able to take classes with extremely good, highly qualified people, and I think that has been a good option for middle school and early high school. She is adding a few classes here and there at private colleges and state flagships where opportunities arise, and she has had excellent mentoring and support. I know that some of the schools that are high on her list would potentially be good fits, if for no other reason than she can likely do research almost from day 1. 

 

But at the same time, I hate to see her completely rule out Schools without even seeing what they could offer due to price, when they seem like possibly good fits and have faculty telling her that they would love to have her.