Paying for college- It breaks my heart....

[daijobu]

1 hour ago, dmmetler said:

But at the same time, I hate to see her completely rule out Schools without even seeing what they could offer due to price, when they seem like possibly good fits and have faculty telling her that they would love to have her. 

 

This is a really good point.  Sometimes schools actually put their multi-million dollar endowments to better use than enriching hedge fund managers...like cutting students a break on tuition.  If you love an expensive school, it can't hurt (other than the application fee) to throw in your hat and see how much love they show you in return.  Where love = $$.    

[daijobu]

On 7/19/2019 at 7:57 PM, teachermom2834 said:

Oh well. Most people don’t want to hear my thoughts on college admissions and financing so I save it for the people I really love. 🙂

 

I find this to be true regarding good advice in general.  

[klmama]

2 hours ago, dmmetler said:

But at the same time, I hate to see her completely rule out Schools without even seeing what they could offer due to price, when they seem like possibly good fits and have faculty telling her that they would love to have her. 

Is there some reason you can't investigate that for her or insist she look into a couple of those options?

[Miguelsmom]

Even if we do all Financial Aid, loans, and work study we still won't make the numbers that they state on their website. However we BARELY make it if we choose the cheapest dorm, only 12 credits a semester, we assume the "other expenses", and we're really frugal with books. He's already getting his AA and AS degree. So it's 2-2.5 years of university. He'll need paid internships through out but it's doable.

The more affordable option is to get a bachelors degree in a field he doesn't want (tech management: concentration programming). I don't think he would mind if he really did not dislike the online component of that school. We're still working on scholarships but he's an "average" student. We couldn't/can't save for college, not everyone can. He's not a kid that can work AND do school. So he's not currently working. He has about 150 hrs of community service but that's not a lot in comparison to others. 

I know people who just filled out the financial aid form and have yet to put their classes in that plan to attend fall. Some people just don't have it in them to plan especially that far ahead.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, klmama said:

Is there some reason you can't investigate that for her or insist she look into a couple of those options?

The problem comes with finding time to actually visit. And ultimately, I can’t apply for her. 

[Hoggirl]

On 7/21/2019 at 8:38 AM, FriedClams said:

 The less emotion in the process, the better.

 

 

 

I can’t like this enough. 

I recently met a woman whose son is going to Duke this fall.  Double legacy, and applied ED.   She would have NEVER considered sending him to a state school - EVER.  Has to have the “brand.”  They don’t qualify for need-based aid.  According to our mutual friend, they go through money like water. So, they only way he can go is for them to sell their house.  So that’s what they’re doing.  Unbelievable. Way too much emotion on all fronts. 

[Hoggirl]

^Oh, and I forgot to mention.  They paid $7,000 to an Independent Educational Consultant.  This is how I came into contact with her - our mutual friend connected us so I could interview her for one of my college consulting classes I am taking. 

I think her son completed 10 or 11 apps which, of course, had to be pulled when he got into Duke ED.  His “safeties” were UVA, W&M, W&L, and the University of Richmond.  They do NOT live in Virginia.  Her ds was a National Merit Finalist with a 35 ACT.  He really loved Middlebury, and applied there.  I think mom pushed Duke because she (and I’m sure the consultant as well) knew the legacy would only have value if he applied ED there.  

She had to have “brand” at alll costs.  Clearly this family has issues with money management in all areas of life.  However, I think many families toss reason out the window when college rolls around.  

Our ds was high stats and in-range for for top schools when he applied.  He did a summer program at Stanford and fell in love.  It was his “dream school.”  We were not going to receive (and did not receive) any need-based aid.  I told dh at the beginning of ds’s  junior year that he had to be okay with our spending that kind of money if he got in.  That if we were not willing to pay it, we should not let him apply at all.  How much more valid is this concept if you have to go into debt?

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.  And certainly if you cannot, you should not. 


 

 

[madteaparty]

11 hours ago, Hoggirl said:

 

I can’t like this enough. 

I recently met a woman whose son is going to Duke this fall.  Double legacy, and applied ED.   She would have NEVER considered sending him to a state school - EVER.  Has to have the “brand.”  They don’t qualify for need-based aid.  According to our mutual friend, they go through money like water. So, they only way he can go is for them to sell their house.  So that’s what they’re doing.  Unbelievable. Way too much emotion on all fronts. 

I think it’s admirable they value their son’s education to that degree. 

[RootAnn]

SMH

54 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I think it’s admirable they value their son’s education to that degree. 

Maybe I don't get it. Duke is going to offer him so much better of an education that it is worth selling their house? 

I hope he's majoring in something that only Duke can get him the right contacts for employment post-Bachelor's degree. I have no idea what that could be, though.

That family & mine sure have different goals & values ($$-wise).

[catz]

I think planning over many years to sell your house at college time if you have retirement well at hand and emergency savings, and you are firm on downsizing and have that budgeted is fine.  The thing is you still have to live somewhere.  You still might have kids coming home in the summer.   Throwing caution to the wind and deciding to do that as a hail Mary because you're anxious for your kid to go to a branded school is risky.  You need clear understanding of the tax implications of that too. 

As a society, we will all pay when people don't budget for their retirements/future.  And let me tell you, if you have an aging parent struggling financially that can be really hard.  A close friend unexpectedly has their elderly parent in their home because their parents always said everything was fine.    Until they figured out they really didn't have the money to transition housing.   They're into a couple years of housing this parent who needs a lot of care while raising kids, working, and trying to get them into a subsidized assisted living situation.  The other parent died in their care after a fall because their house is not set up to care for elderly.  I have a father who was forced to retire in his 50's due to health issues.  Fortunately, he was a good financial planner and he was able to live 18 more years because he had that abilty.  His diagnosis had him at under 2 years when he was working.

I think balancing your options and really digging in on program quality/faculty/outcomes vs. value and make a holistic decision doesn't mean you value your student's education less.  I'm a little touchy about that I think because we know a couple families that I know overextended on their first kid's college and have other kids coming up behind and say "well, we REALLY value education".  Well, ok, we actually don't value it less.  Actually, we made a really hard decision to homeschool throughout.  If the difference in programs we looked at were truly quantifiable in some way, we may have chose to tighten belts a bit more.   And my oldest kid is talking about grad school too.  If we can be in a position to at least help a little with living expenses at that time, all the better.

Edited July 23, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[Hoggirl]

These parents were not being proactive.  They are being reactive.  This was not part of a grander plan to downsize. They firmly believe that the “brand” is necessary for their son to have success in life.  Where is the eye roll emoticon???  There is nothing instrinsically wrong with valuing brand, but I just can’t get on board with their line of thinking when it isn’t affordable without great sacrifice. However, it’s not any of my business. 

The sad part to me is that as a National Merit Finalist and Florida resident this young man could have had a full ride to UF on this scholarship:

https://www.floridastudentfinancialaidsg.org/PDF/factsheets/FIS.pdf

(and for those of you shopping for large National Merit awards, note that this scholarship is now available to non-Florida residents as well and at several schools in Florida, not just UF)

I know we all know college rankings are not the be-all, end-all of determining the worth of a college.  However, UF is currently ranked 35th in the country per US News.  It’s not as though their only in-state option was a slacker school. 

My point based on the OP’s post is that sometimes I can muster sympathy for these families, but sometimes I can’t.  These people were aware of what was coming down the pipeline.  They are not poor people, they are image people - in all facets of their lives.  Their younger son is at Exeter. I don’t know them well at all.  Maybe they anticipate a big inheritance down the road that will cover the choices they are making today???  

 

 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

23 hours ago, daijobu said:

 

This is a really good point.  Sometimes schools actually put their multi-million dollar endowments to better use than enriching hedge fund managers...like cutting students a break on tuition.  If you love an expensive school, it can't hurt (other than the application fee) to throw in your hat and see how much love they show you in return.  Where love = $$.    

Sometimes "reach" doesn't mean whether or not you can get in, it means whether or not you'll be able to pay for it. As in, it would be a "meet" school, but you know it's out of your budget unless you get a great package. Just like applying to a few reach to get in schools is okay, hoping for a good package is also an okay thing that kids should do... assuming everyone has their eyes open about it.

[catz]

I absolutely consider any school that is a financial reach a reach.  And I wish school counselors (at least in our area) just kind of expressed things that way to students too.  Like in our urban area, they really push those high achievers to apply to reachy schools without actually considering they aren't truly affordable for many of them.   And I do think urban public school kids can be desired at elite schools that have a lot of FA available.  Though many of them have may hightly and possibly ivy educated parents and are upper middle class they still fill a quota.  

My high stat kid is also going to a top 50 university.  Hardly a tragedy by any stretch.  LOL.  I know a student (NM/ACT 35) having an amazing full ride experience at UF.   And that was after the parents sent older sibling to an elite and had kind of a middling experience there.  

Edited July 23, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[DawnM]

My dad went to medical school while he lived with his parents (U. of Oregon med school in Portland).  I remember asking him why he didn't look at places like Ivy League schools.  He was smart enough.  He said, "I couldn't afford it."   His med school was $1500 tuition per year or something like that.  His mom was a nurse on the campus and they commuted together.  

I have grown up with that kind of thinking.   My dad's philosophy is that you take on as little debt as you can.  And we were very clear with our kids about what we could afford.  Originally we told them local 4 year school and live at home.  Then I went back to work and we told them they could live on campus and we would pay for NC State schools and anything beyond that they were responsible for.

I truly do not understand the parents at my oldest son's private school who post on our FB parent page about how expensive it is and how they can't pay it and they are taking out parent plus loans knowing their child will need to pay back the $200k loan (or whatever it is, but close enough for most of them.).    I get that the school offers special programs you can't find other places and it is highly rated, but then find other ways to make it work (community college to start, etc...). If a kid really wants it, he/she will go for it, even if they can't do the full 4 year program.  My son did.

[FriedClams]

3 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I absolutely consider any school that is a financial reach a reach.  And I wish school counselors (at least in our area) just kind of expressed things that way to students too.  Like in our urban area, they really push those high achievers to apply to reachy schools without actually considering they aren't truly affordable for many of them.   And I do think urban public school kids can be desired at elite schools that have a lot of FA available.  Though many of them have may hightly and possibly ivy educated parents and are upper middle class they still fill a quota.  

My high stat kid is also going to a top 50 university.  Hardly a tragedy by any stretch.  LOL.  I know a student (NM/ACT 35) having an amazing full ride experience at UF.   And that was after the parents sent older sibling to an elite and had kind of a middling experience there.  

I think you make some great points here. I think there is a totally unrealistic myth out there that high stat kids get "full rides" wherever they want. Yes, they can get them, but they're not usually at the high stat schools. Kids with 34/35/36 ACT scores applying to high stat colleges are "qualified" and generally meet the stats of the middle 50% of the application pool. Great. At that point you're still lucky to get in much less get a scholarship. To get a 'full ride" they need to apply to schools where their stats are WELL above the average. At that point, it's beneficial for the college to entice them to go there to raise the average stats of the incoming class, but those schools may not have the same level of "elite". I think the school that worked this really well was UAH. It seems they're backing off on the amount of money being offered for stats/grades/tests but their process put them on the map - here and I'm sure other places.  I'm sure they got LOADS of applicants that otherwise would not have given them a look.  But, if a kid/parent gets too attached emotionally, I can see where it would be brutal to take a step back and look at the financials and see the long term benefit of taking the scholarship at a less high stat college.  

And before I get flamed, I know that state schools are STILL crazy expensive and don't give out money like they used to (or they used to charge a whole lot less) and some kids need to take out loans. I get that. I get not every kid is high stat. I also get that students can work jobs,  live at home, pick a different school, work hard to raise ACT scores (if possible) to get a better aid package, do some time at a CC, and do other things to avoid debt (said by someone who committed myself to military service for 10 years to pay for my college bills).  I am not 100% anti loan, but I am very, very concerned about strapping 18-22 year olds with levels of debt that they can't even wrap their brains around without really working to explore other, sometimes less ideal, options.

AND, I am SO GRATEFUL for this board and you wise mentors out there who really opened my eyes to issues like this YEARS before we had to face it with our kids. You are lifesavers. Thank you!!!

Edited July 23, 2019 by FriedClams

[MysteryJen]

The Duke example is one of the things that make me crazy about college admissions right now.

I know at least 10 girls who could have had full to near full scholarships, but didn't even pursue them for the "prestige" of major conference schools. And not the great universities, but regular, plain old state universities. Not all these parents are so wealthy that this won't be a hardship.

And these girls had a 12 month lead time to find the right swimming, academic and financial fit.  

Honestly, I don't blame the kids (though a little- they are just young) but I do blame the parents. 

We are grown-ups responsible for our children. Sometimes that means hard truths and tough conversations.

[Penelope]

On 7/23/2019 at 10:11 AM, RootAnn said:

SMH

Maybe I don't get it. Duke is going to offer him so much better of an education that it is worth selling their house? 

I hope he's majoring in something that only Duke can get him the right contacts for employment post-Bachelor's degree. I have no idea what that could be, though.

That family & mine sure have different goals & values ($$-wise).

 

I don’t understand, either. There still seems to be school name snobbery in some circles, although I think it is less and more and more high stats kids are choosing to go to state flagships for financial reasons. I mean, I get it. What American parent wouldn’t feel just a little something inside while sharing their child is attending Harvard?

But having met lots of people from fancy private’s and Ivies over the years with the same jobs and career path as those from lesser named schools, I think it’s mostly smoke and mirrors. There are a few career paths where I think it could make a difference, but for most kids it doesn’t make financial sense these days. Not that there is no difference between very low ranked regional university and Duke, but there are options in between where I’d bet there is absolutely no meaningful difference in outcomes for most students. 

[RootAnn]

36 minutes ago, Penelope said:

There are a few career paths where I think it could make a difference, but for most kids it doesn’t make financial sense these days. Not that there is no difference between very low ranked regional university and Duke, but there are options in between where I’d bet there is absolutely no meaningful difference in outcomes for most students. 

I am aware of a family with female twins. One went to an Ivy & the other a small, regional, state college with no name recognition. The Ivy graduate became a state senator at the age of 22. The local college grad works at the grocery store and sells ads for a weekly newspaper.

Was the reason one has a different level of position because of the school or because of the individual's personality?

I don't know because I don't know the women personally, but I would suspect the same things that led to one applying to Ivies & the other choosing to attend community college & then the state school when they graduated from high school are what led them to their diverse paths now. I would suspect that the state senator twin would have found a way to get her current position regardless of where she attended college.

Anyway, I agree with you but thought the above story was interesting.

[...................]

...if our son had gotten into his dream school (CM) we would have been very happy for him!  And it would have nearly sealed the deal for his future job where he wants to be....And we had a plan to pay for it that was do-able but not exactly what I really wanted to do (take out some of the equity in our house)....

but ...I'm really glad he didn't get into CM now because we are SO excited for all of the opportunities he has already had at PennState, and it's not costing us 80k per year!!! (about half that.) and instead of taking out the equity in our house we are transferring the equity to a better investment and moving to a larger home (we are very crowded in our current one). Good for everyone!  

For my dd, we are having the conversation right from the get go about what we can afford, and she has done her own research.  All of the schools she has chosen have no name recognizable to anyone but locals.  But they get great reviews, they're safe, they're nationally and regionally accredited and they offer the programs in which she is interested.  Our goal is no debt at all for her, and very little for my son. (he has a much more lucrative career path.)

I'm happy how everything turned out.  🙂

 

[...................]

On 7/22/2019 at 6:47 PM, Hoggirl said:

 

I can’t like this enough. 

I recently met a woman whose son is going to Duke this fall.  Double legacy, and applied ED.   She would have NEVER considered sending him to a state school - EVER.  Has to have the “brand.”  They don’t qualify for need-based aid.  According to our mutual friend, they go through money like water. So, they only way he can go is for them to sell their house.  So that’s what they’re doing.  Unbelievable. Way too much emotion on all fronts. 

 

Well I mean, again, I am happy we didn't have to take out equity on our house...

BUT selling their house may not have been a big deal for them emotionally.  The majority of people do not retire in the house in which they raised their kids.  Big house, big yard, upkeep and maintenance and retirement don't go hand in hand.  Likely they'll get a smaller house for now and then an even smaller retirement home in a retirement community with amenities, or in FL, or wherever.  It's really not a big deal for many people.  

We view our house the same way because we didn't make it to Silicon Valley until our early 40's...we will never be able to retire here so we don't view selling our house as a big deal either.  Our home is our cozy hobbit hole, and our place to be together, and it's also a temporary investment.  I wish we could stay forever in one place, but that is never going to happen. 

These people may go through money like water, and perhaps could have saved more, but it could be they always knew that the house was a built in college savings.

[Hoggirl]

2 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

 

These people may go through money like water, and perhaps could have saved more, but it could be they always knew that the house was a built in college savings.

Perhaps, but I don’t think so.  She seemed to be making a big deal about how they were sacrificing.   As in saying it out loud in front of her ds.   And, they didn’t list the house until mid-May (even though he knew he was going in December), so I think they came to the realization this was the only way they could make it work for four years. These are only my observations and perceptions. I could be way off base. She is just a friend of a friend, so I don’t know her well. 

Everyone has to make choices with which they are comfortable.  Those are individualized.  As someone else wrote, I feel bad for the kids, but not so much for the parents. 

[daijobu]

On 7/23/2019 at 5:06 AM, Hoggirl said:

He really loved Middlebury, and applied there.  I think mom pushed Duke because she (and I’m sure the consultant as well) knew the legacy would only have value if he applied ED there.  
 

 

Wow, those are 2 very different schools!  I hope he finds his people at Duke.  

[catz]

5 hours ago, RootAnn said:

I am aware of a family with female twins. One went to an Ivy & the other a small, regional, state college with no name recognition. The Ivy graduate became a state senator at the age of 22. The local college grad works at the grocery store and sells ads for a weekly newspaper.

Was the reason one has a different level of position because of the school or because of the individual's personality?

I don't know because I don't know the women personally, but I would suspect the same things that led to one applying to Ivies & the other choosing to attend community college & then the state school when they graduated from high school are what led them to their diverse paths now. I would suspect that the state senator twin would have found a way to get her current position regardless of where she attended college.

Anyway, I agree with you but thought the above story was interesting.

I do think these stories easily go both ways though.  My son is working an internship this summer.  There is a young man in his late 20's tangentially involved in the project that graduated from a top 10 University.  He's a very nice young man but there are people without degrees doing what he currently does as a job. And there are other youngish grads involved from lower rated schools that outshine/out rank him.  My son is super interested as a rising college freshman considering careers in some related areas so he's been asking a lot of questions about how people got from point a to point b.  This elite grad seems happy and content though and personality wise doesn't seem like the type to light the world on fire.  Given his background, I suspect he came from a family that could just easily afford that.

On the other side, I know several students who were real movers and shakers at a Midwestern state directional school that went on to competitive grad school programs.  They strategically picked a lower cost undergrad program for more flexibility for grad school.  And are leaders now in their jobs in a couple different fields.   I was impressed with placement at almost every school we bothered to look up.  But that obviously doesn't apply to every student that comes through the door at any given school.  My kid dual enrolled at a CC with 60% pell receipents and the stories they'd print in their news letters about their success stories would bring tears to my eyes.  

As I mentioned before, my lowly flagship grad husband manages MIT grads daily.  LOL.  I think most of time time smart hard working students can bloom where they are planted and can find opportunity.  And find their place in the world.  Not everyone wants to lead/manage/light the world on fire either.  We also know non-elite wall street investment bankers (DH was involved in software on wall street for a while).  I know that career path gets brought up as justifying the price of an ivy.  And again, if the money/FA situation works for your budget, fabulous.  Choose it and own it and enjoy.  But I have to admit my eyes start rolling when I start hearing the "my kid just HAD to go to $$$ school".   There is absolutely no need to justify your choice.  

 

Edited July 25, 2019 by FuzzyCatz

[teachermom2834]

Off topic - I just feel like saying how glad I am that coming up with #3 ds I have worked through all of this before. I both understand so much better now how it works and we have clarified our family approach to paying and how much we are comfortable with. I have also seen my two older boys have great opportunities at schools that are very non-dreamy (but good fits for them). My rising 11th grader is my highest stat kid and going to have the best ec profile of my three. I can only imagine the college list I would have built for him if he was my first. I definitely was more enamored by prestige in the beginning and had less of an understanding what it would actually feel like to pay that bill every semester.

We probably could now stretch to pay our EFC and he could possibly get into a “needs met” school. But now I’m thinking he can use his stats to get the number as close to zero as possible (not that the bottom line is the only consideration, it isn’t). I just know now that as a family we just don’t have the stomach for the price tag for more prestigious schools. Even if what we pay is highly discounted and a “great deal” on paper.

So I can see how people don’t get it right with the first kid. The information is out there but it isn’t the easiest to understand and digest. For me it just took awhile to get it all to sink in and process and work out our family feelings on it. 

 

[katilac]

On 7/21/2019 at 4:17 PM, teachermom2834 said:

 When people discuss college debt it is as if they lump the $20,000 federal loan debt and the $200,000 private loan debt in the same category.  

I think they do, because they truly have no understanding of what those numbers mean in terms of payback, interest, and so on. I am constantly astounded at how little number sense so many people have- and I'm not a numbers person at all. 

On 7/23/2019 at 2:11 PM, DawnM said:

  about how expensive it is and how they can't pay it and they are taking out parent plus loans knowing their child will need to pay back the $200k loan  

And of course the child does not have to pay it back, because it is not their loan. Many who are willing to pay it back in theory lack the ability to do so. I am also constantly astounded at how many people don't understand what co-signing for a loan actually means, much less taking out a parent plus loan. The reason you have to sign is because the lending institution does not trust in the other person's ability to pay it back. They're the experts, people, lol. 

 

[Donna]

On 7/21/2019 at 11:53 PM, Matryoshka said:

I did not mean to imply that the arts are not a worthy professional goal.  Just what you're saying here - to go in with your eyes open and know that at least to get established, it may take cobbling together various jobs, most of which (especially at first) may be low-paying - and yeah, that's much easier to do if you're not saddled with debt.  There are lots of paid arts gigs, but ones that are full-time with benefits and will pay for food, rent and a student-loan to boot right out of school aren't that easy to come by.   And ironically, these Arts schools seem to have some of the highest levels of student debt.  

My dd currently has one of those "dream" jobs people going to certain music schools come out trying to get so she has decided not to apply to music school...high costs (mostly living expenses as she was offered paid tuition at the program she was looking most closely at) and essentially taking herself out of the business for 3-4 years to complete a degree to do what she's already doing being the main factors in her decision. She wants a degree eventually and has other interests besides music but we have always been realistic about costs. She knows she does not want to take on debt and limit her ability to pursue her music because she needs a full-time job to pay off that debt. She did a lot of research this spring/summer and found a degree program completely online allowing her to continue touring while pursuing her degree and through a state university so she will have in-state tuition which she will be able to cover. She can tailor her studies toward her interests (arts and literature) and what she learns will (loosely) apply to her music career plus her touring experiences will be part of the program as it has a travel/experience component.

She has been in the music business for years and has observed adult friends/colleagues closely noticing and discussing with me those who succeed in making a decent living and those who supplement with other full-time professions. She knows she will have to be multi-faceted in her approach toward developing her career and is prepared. She once had a violin teacher who told her she should only pursue a profession in music if she couldn't possibly see herself doing anything else...so keeping her eyes open to the difficulties and realities has always been foremost in my mind as she moves through this world.

[JoJosMom]

3 hours ago, DrakeF said:

Paying for college or university is a big problem for many people. Since the cost of study at many colleges and universities is high, so many are forced to seek funding for the study. But many do not plan in advance how to return these debts. Therefore, for many people, student debts remain unpaid for a long time after graduation. I think that you need to start paying a loan for the study immediately, for this you can open a credit card to create your credit. How to choose a credit card for students is well described in the article - https://fnews.today/how-to-choose-the-best-credit-card-for-college-students/. This will help reduce student debt problems.

 

There is spam, and then there is SUPER SPAM. Oh, yeah. We're all gonna run out and get that credit card to pay for our kids' college educations. 🙄

[RootAnn]

On this topic, apparently a first generation sophomore ignored the copious emails from his college & found out at move in that because he still owed the college for last year (some debate on if some was from first semester, too, or just 2nd semester), he would not be able to attend. There had to be multiple layers of ignore-ing and blindness because the parents should also have received emails and snail mail notices.

The college is trying to work with the student & his parents to get a payment structure set up now, but a significant chunk of money needs to be paid up front due to the size of the unpaid bill. The student apparently figured the money would take care of itself & ignored all financial emails. My understanding is that his dorm room contract was cancelled but he only realized it when trying to move in.

[Hoggirl]

Here is an example of what @Heigh Ho is referring to for those who are unfamiliar:

https://www.purdue.edu/dfa/types-of-aid/income-share-agreement/index.html

 

I personally to not care for this type of option at all. 

[chiguirre]

The income share arrangement is how financial aid works at my grad school in Venezuela. Given the total instability of the currency and rampant inflation, the solution was for past students to pay the tuition of current students. So you don't pay while you study, you pay an amount based on the current tuition rate for a set number of years after you graduate. I think it was 1/2 tuition for 4 years for a 2 year MBA back in the day. It worked well and, really, it was the only way to have student loans at all given the economic chaos. It honestly worries me that this model is coming to the US, it's a harbinger of economic instability.

[frogger]

I had never heard of the income share arrangement before.

 

I'm baffled by parents not knowing the cost. I mean there are articles, news stories, things everywhere about the student debt crisis. How hard is it to look up the Cost of Attendance. My first reaction was, "oh no, none of my children will be able to go to school.". I suppose they keep hearing that isn't the actual cost of attendance and the will easily get a full ride scholarship? It is rather opaque which I think is wrong.

 

Even my boy with a full tuition scholarship may end up with debt if he has to move off campus, buy a vehicle, etc. He works every summer squeezing in every last hour he can at his full time job and mowing lawns on weekends but he will still likely end up with a reasonable amount of debt. Without that scholarship he would end up with much more debt than you all think is reasonable per year so more than 4x the reasonable amount.

 

With no community college system in our state and the governor wanting to gut the single University system I am worried that there will be no options for the next 2 but move to another state, work a job until you qualify as resident and then go to school in your mid 20's. The last child may manage to get scholarships but there seem to be less and less of them every year.

My next 2 already are earning money but it won't make a dent in OOS tuition and room and board and fees and they aren't high stats. So we are looking at trade schools certifications and other things to make a living. I love my home but sometimes I ask myself what kind of future I gave my children by living here.

 

I obviously don't run in the same circles as many others here but dang, it seems like DH makes decent money.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2019 by frogger
Spelling goofiness

[Hoggirl]

I am not sure the current system is sustainable.  The historical “college experience,” is something that I think will soon go by the wayside. I think in the next 10-15 years online options will increase and become more acceptable.  I think there is still somewhat of a stigma/suspicion  associated with degrees that are fully earned online, but I expect that to change.  

[Mom0012]

20 hours ago, frogger said:

I had never heard of the income share arrangement before.

 

I'm baffled by parents not knowing the cost. I mean there are articles, news stories, things everywhere about the student debt crisis. How hard is it to look up the Cost of Attendance. My first reaction was, "oh no, none of my children will be able to go to school.". I suppose they keep hearing that isn't the actual cost of attendance and the will easily get a full ride scholarship? It is rather opaque which I think is wrong.

 

Even my boy with a full tuition scholarship may end up with debt if he has to move off campus, buy a vehicle, etc. He works every summer squeezing in every last hour he can at his full time job and mowing lawns on weekends but he will still likely end up with a reasonable amount of debt. Without that scholarship he would end up with much more debt than you all think is reasonable per year so more than 4x the reasonable amount.

 

With no community college system in our state and the governor wanting to gut the single University system I am worried that there will be no options for the next 2 but move to another state, work a job until you qualify as resident and then go to school in your mid 20's. The last child may manage to get scholarships but there seem to be less and less of them every year.

My next 2 already are earning money but it won't make a dent in OOS tuition and room and board and fees and they aren't high stats. So we are looking at trade schools certifications and other things to make a living. I love my home but sometimes I ask myself what kind of future I gave my children by living here.

 

I obviously don't run in the same circles as many others here but dang, it seems like DH makes decent money.

 

 

I really think the bolded is the issue. I think the reality of what people are expected to pay is so astronomical compared to what they think a reasonable cost will be, they just never really understand it until they get the hard numbers from the college. Plus, there are so many promises about financial aid and meeting full need at colleges. That can be very misleading.

People on this board are much more in touch with the reality of it than many that I’ve met IRL. I was just helping a friend who has a dd who is a senior this year. She was saying she needs to get her dd moving to find scholarships. I told her she had better make sure the school will stack outside scholarships first and that she might be better off focusing on test scores and scholarships offered directly by the school. Her dd has not even taken the SAT yet and is an average student. She really thinks there are plenty of scholarships just out there for the taking. And this is a very bright, financially frugal mom.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

I really think the bolded is the issue. I think the reality of what people are expected to pay is so astronomical compared to what they think a reasonable cost will be, they just never really understand it until they get the hard numbers from the college. Plus, there are so many promises about financial aid and meeting full need at colleges. That can be very misleading.

People on this board are much more in touch with the reality of it than many that I’ve met IRL. I was just helping a friend who has a dd who is a senior this year. She was saying she needs to get her dd moving to find scholarships. I told her she had better make sure the school will stack outside scholarships first and that she might be better off focusing on test scores and scholarships offered directly by the school. Her dd has not even taken the SAT yet and is an average student. She really thinks there are plenty of scholarships just out there for the taking. And this is a very bright, financially frugal mom.

 

Yeah, most students WILL NOT get meaningful scholarships. I hate that people bring it up every time college costs are mentioned. Most kids aren’t stellar athletes, budding mathematicians, musical virtuosos or ballet prodigies. For most people, some combination of self-pay and federal aid is what they should plan for and expect. $500 from the local Lions club is great but that’s two textbooks not tuition.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Sneezyone

[Frances]

29 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I am already seeing K12 folks do all their math online, as the public schools have dropped the University prep  mission.  That means more are on the triple accel math path, done with diffeq in 12th, and more with a meaningful middle school academic experience.  That alone is opening up options; I think we'll continue to see the bimodal split in public school as more and more students use their multiple study halls to do online courses at their level and grad at 16.  I don't think these students are showing up in the stats yet, but parents here are vocalizing -- why spend for private k12 school that isn't at the child's level, when one can buy what one needs elsewhere.  I think we'll see the first two years of college at university level, not community college/high school honors level, be done at home as the demand expands.

Maybe in your area, but it sounds somewhat unique. I don’t know of any area I’ve ever lived over multiple states where there would be a significant cohort of kids ready to finish differential equations by the end of high school where the high schools didn’t offer lots of AP or IB or at least classes for college credit. The type of places here that would have that type of cohort are highly ranked public schools in upper middle class areas. The area where I grew up would see a kid like that maybe once every four years, but they offer several classes for college credit. And since it’s common for many high achieving kids to pursue STEM careers, I’m not sure online labs are going to substitute for in-person college ones.

Also, not everyone wants their gifted kids accelerating at that rate. I have a niece who is highly gifted, especially in math. She went to a regular high school in upstate NY with some AP classes, certainly far fewer than the high schools here. She could have taken math classes at the local LAC, but chose not to. She went to a top ranked LAC and is now in a doctoral program at an Ivy.

[teachermom2834]

Somehow there is a notion out there about all kinds of scholarship money that goes unclaimed. I get that repeated to me quite a bit.

I do hear people say about their dc “if they want to go to college they need to get scholarships. We aren’t paying.”  I always tell people my dc received large scholarships but there is still a tab. For my kids it is “they need to get scholarships, and a job, and we need to help some, and likely federal loans.” 

For the vast majority of people they will be funding college from multiple sources. It isn’t scholarships or loans. Scholarships or parental help. Jobs or loans. It is usually all of the above. Or at least a couple of the above.

Yet so many people just plan on scholarships. They will be the ones to finance college with all that “scholarship money going unclaimed.”

[chiguirre]

2 hours ago, HeighHo said:

Folks are done with putting their kid in multiple study halls. And they are done with paying university prices for core basic community college/high school level.

If you have a prediction to share, please do. 

I predict that people will eventually move away from your district to more average ones. My very average large ISD's wealthiest high school ranks #100 in Texas, so it's no academic powerhouse. However, it offers almost every AP and lots of vocational courses and I've never heard of any student taking multiple study halls. The one factor that allows it to do this is its size. It has 750 kids per class and no school in my district has less than 550. But that's very standard in suburban Texas. We also have free dual enrollment tuition at our CCs. Although I'm sure not everyone has access to a huge school that offers so many options, most have far more options than kids in your district do.

[freesia]

3 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Somehow there is a notion out there about all kinds of scholarship money that goes unclaimed. I get that repeated to me quite a bit.

I do hear people say about their dc “if they want to go to college they need to get scholarships. We aren’t paying.”  I always tell people my dc received large scholarships but there is still a tab. For my kids it is “they need to get scholarships, and a job, and we need to help some, and likely federal loans.” 

For the vast majority of people they will be funding college from multiple sources. It isn’t scholarships or loans. Scholarships or parental help. Jobs or loans. It is usually all of the above. Or at least a couple of the above.

Yet so many people just plan on scholarships. They will be the ones to finance college with all that “scholarship money going unclaimed.”

Yes, this.  My ds has the top scholarship from his school, plus 2 outside scholarships, a Church-match scholarship, loan, a campus job, summer job plus we put in a good share.  Paying tuition is a bit of a juggle as we have to get money from multiple sources. 

[Hoggirl]

4 hours ago, teachermom2834 said:

Somehow there is a notion out there about all kinds of scholarship money that goes unclaimed. I get that repeated to me quite a bit.

I do hear people say about their dc “if they want to go to college they need to get scholarships. We aren’t paying.”  I always tell people my dc received large scholarships but there is still a tab. For my kids it is “they need to get scholarships, and a job, and we need to help some, and likely federal loans.” 

For the vast majority of people they will be funding college from multiple sources. It isn’t scholarships or loans. Scholarships or parental help. Jobs or loans. It is usually all of the above. Or at least a couple of the above.

Yet so many people just plan on scholarships. They will be the ones to finance college with all that “scholarship money going unclaimed.”

I’ve said this before, but I think this is because the parents haven’t “bought” college in awhile, so they have NO idea how expensive it truly is.  Dh attended the state flagship and tuition was $30 per credit hour when he attended. 

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

I’ve said this before, but I think this is because the parents haven’t “bought” college in awhile, so they have NO idea how expensive it truly is.  Dh attended the state flagship and tuition was $30 per credit hour when he attended. 

 

I dunno. I only hear this from people my parents' age. My peers KNOW college is going to be expensive and most are planning accordingly. There's still a major subset though who are ignoring all of the warning signs (I swear this is an epidemic these days) and plowing right through expecting modern miracles.

[Hoggirl]

@Sneezyone - yep. Definitely a lot of “magical thinking” going on out there in the how to pay for college world. 

[Sneezyone]

7 minutes ago, Hoggirl said:

@Sneezyone - yep. Definitely a lot of “magical thinking” going on out there in the how to pay for college world. 

 

It is really hitting DH and I hard that we will have a college freshman in four years. We are just two years away from submitting our 'trial balloon' FAFSA! We are fortunate that we've prepared. Even so, this is SCARY!

[SKL]

I agree.  A close relative did that, or came close.  (Not sure if they actually accepted before realizing it wasn't going to work.)  They came to me for a $17K "loan" for the first year, and I said no.  That made me the bad guy.  😕  I'm thinking, you have known you had a very smart, college bound kid for 18 years, and you are just now thinking about how to make college happen?  Or exactly how rich did you think I was?

[Sebastian (a lady)]

On 8/23/2019 at 4:26 PM, Hoggirl said:

I’ve said this before, but I think this is because the parents haven’t “bought” college in awhile, so they have NO idea how expensive it truly is.  Dh attended the state flagship and tuition was $30 per credit hour when he attended. 

I think this is a huge part of it.  Even when I did my master's degree in the late 1990's I was able to pay for each semester out of our current income.  Total was less than the cost of a car.  

Now each year is the cost of a car or two and some of those would be luxury models. A summer job isn't going to cut it.

[Ravin]

My likely-college-bound kid is probably going to have to get there by way of Uncle Sam's Canoe Club (or, if he insists, some other service branch) the way I did. I pray for his continued good health. I should have my own student loans taken care of by the time he graduates high school, at least.

[frogger]

On 8/23/2019 at 8:18 AM, teachermom2834 said:

 

Yet so many people just plan on scholarships. They will be the ones to finance college with all that “scholarship money going unclaimed.”

 

Well, there are a lot of scholarships that go unclaimed or unapplied for by many applicants because they often don't help.  I know that you probably know this but I can see how that part could turn out confusing to people.

 

If you go to a school that charges based on "need" and then get a scholarship so the school thinks you "need" less it doesn't really pay to spend tons of time for scholarships for $500 here or $1000 there and then you end up paying the same amount out of pocket anyway. They can help at State schools more so but we didn't bother. DS figured he could be working and making money rather than working at asking for money unsure if he would get it. 

[...................]

On 8/28/2019 at 1:44 PM, frogger said:

 

Well, there are a lot of scholarships that go unclaimed or unapplied for by many applicants because they often don't help.  I know that you probably know this but I can see how that part could turn out confusing to people.

 

If you go to a school that charges based on "need" and then get a scholarship so the school thinks you "need" less it doesn't really pay to spend tons of time for scholarships for $500 here or $1000 there and then you end up paying the same amount out of pocket anyway. They can help at State schools more so but we didn't bother. DS figured he could be working and making money rather than working at asking for money unsure if he would get it. 

 

 

We spent over five hours going through teh entire website (the one that filters on your stats, ethnicity, major etc.) and the scholarship books at the library.  

We came away with TWO that he could apply for because almost every single one would go like this:

Latino heritage, engineering major, ....blah blah, blah, five lines, down "must demonstrate significant financial need" 

Honestly unless you are lower income, there isn't much out there. The scholarships are VERY specific- to the background, ethnicity, major etc. and then 99.99999% say you need to demonstrate significant need. 

Total waste of time.  One of the ones he could apply for was under 250.00, and the other one required a very significantly difficult essay, and reading of a 1000 page book that he loved, that one may have been worth it but he felt overwhelmed by the essay prompts.

[frogger]

I always see the ones by local clubs, the Electrical Co-op, churches, etc. So yes they are specific (like you have to be the child of a co-op member ) but sorting through to find the ones specific to you even if they are out there, is crazy demanding. I know there are a number locally that my non-minority child could apply for but sorting, finding enough to pay for school, excuse me while I go roll on the floor laughing. 

 

I do feel your pain, Calming Tea. I quickly moved to school specific scholarships and automatic ones based on test scores. That won't work for the next two though. 

[whitestavern]

19 hours ago, Calming Tea said:

 

 

We spent over five hours going through teh entire website (the one that filters on your stats, ethnicity, major etc.) and the scholarship books at the library.  

We came away with TWO that he could apply for because almost every single one would go like this:

Latino heritage, engineering major, ....blah blah, blah, five lines, down "must demonstrate significant financial need" 

Honestly unless you are lower income, there isn't much out there. The scholarships are VERY specific- to the background, ethnicity, major etc. and then 99.99999% say you need to demonstrate significant need. 

Total waste of time.  One of the ones he could apply for was under 250.00, and the other one required a very significantly difficult essay, and reading of a 1000 page book that he loved, that one may have been worth it but he felt overwhelmed by the essay prompts.

 

That was our experience as well. Hours going through those phone book scholarship books and they were almost all need-based. And there just aren't a lot of schools out there that will even let you stack outside scholarships. Our best merit came from the schools themselves, and my dd did very well with scholarships, even without top stats. It takes a bit of work to put together a list. She didn't apply to any automatic scholarship schools, but between running the NPCs and input from folks on College Confidential we were pretty confident which schools were going to end up being affordable. Honestly we were pleasantly surprised by how much merit aid she received.

DS has lower stats, so we are assuming there will be little merit but hoping for some FA since there will be two in school next year. He has some lower priced schools on his list, but we are assuming we'll have to pay more for his college experience. If he has a successful first year, we will consider taking out loans for him. He's going into a major that should pay very well once he's out.

[Lori D.]

6 hours ago, whitestavern said:

That was our experience as well. Hours going through those phone book scholarship books and they were almost all need-based. And there just aren't a lot of schools out there that will even let you stack outside scholarships... 

This was our experience as well -- too male, too white, too middle class -- and for one DS, also too average of stats -- to fit the eligibility of most scholarships. And I spent weeks combing through scholarship websites, and the websites of the most likely schools that DSs would attend.

With one DS, we had the best success with scholarships from the community college! (DS started there and then transferred)  And that CC scholarship helped with landing a good (half tuition) renewable transfer scholarship at the smaller 4-year LAC -- which also allowed stacking of scholarships. (Alas, we couldn't find any to try for in order to stack.) BUT -- a good transfer scholarship tends to be the exception rather than the rule...

The other DS did a 9-month AmeriCorps commitment, which earned him a college tuition credit of about $4500.

6 hours ago, whitestavern said:

... DS has lower stats, so we are assuming there will be little merit but hoping for some FA since there will be two in school next year. He has some lower priced schools on his list, but we are assuming we'll have to pay more for his college experience. If he has a successful first year, we will consider taking out loans for him. He's going into a major that should pay very well once he's out.

Just expressing concern about "taking out loans for him"... Even if he is successful at college, unexpected life circumstances can happen that may prevent a student from completing a degree -- meaning the student now has debt AND no high salary for paying it off, locking the student into virtual servitude to the gov't. I'm sure you're already aware of that though 😉 , so just throwing out the following, more for anyone else who is reading and considering loans:

- first try and find options that allow you to reduce costs -- like, 2 years at the lower-cost local community college and transfer, or attend the university in your city and live at home (room and board on average will ADD $10,000+ per YEAR in college costs, because virtually all scholarships only cover tuition & fees, with a few smaller "book awards")
- possibly consider a tuition reimbursement program -- your future labor in exchange for tuition help now (some companies will provide $$ towards tuition in exchange for you agreeing to work XX years for them upon graduation; SMART scholarships are similar, just agreeing to work as a civilian for the US military for a period of time after college graduation in exchange for their tuition scholarship for you)
- try and limit total amount of college debt to no more than $25,000-$30,000, even if expecting to start with a salary that is double that amount
- possibly work out a loan with legal agreement with a grandparent -- they loan XX amount for college, to be paid back after college at XX rate, with a total of XX amount of interest
- limit loans to just subsidized student loans (interest does not start until 6 months after student leaves school -- but, it's whether dropped out or graduated)
- if only offered unsubsidized student loans, try and use the smallest amount needed and use the remainder of the award to start paying down that loan
- also for unsubsidized loans -- if the parent is going to financially help, make monthly payments and pay off that year's loan during that school year
- for parents: avoid if at all possible taking out any parent loans -- Parent Plus loans, but esp. any private lender loans -- yikes, the interest rate, and yikes! risking your own retirement!
- once there are loans -- try and reduce length of loan and esp. the total interest amount, by paying extra each month on the PRINCIPLE of the loan -- AND be sure to make it very clear EACH month where that extra amount is to be applied -- AND be sure to follow up EACH month to make sure that the extra payment WAS applied to the principle, and not to the interest

Edited September 1, 2019 by Lori D.