Am I being unreasonable? Advice needed...

[marbel]

1 hour ago, nixpix5 said:

This.

It actually speaks volumes that your mom made these plans without a proper heads up and without giving thought to you or the season. I would not let my new driver go, for me that is an automatic no. I would also not give up my time with my children I don't get to see as much. That is precious time. I would insist she reschedule her elective surgery, or hire in home help if she can swing it for the amount of time you can't be there. I would feel frustrated and I think you are a lovely daughter for working hard to find a solution.

I agree.  I was thinking about my mother. She would never have dreamed of scheduling surgery without telling me and yet expect me to travel 13 hours to help her.  I would not expect to do that to my kids - unless, I suppose, I was losing my ability to think clearly about such things, which is a whole 'nother issue. 

I do want to model caring for elderly parents to my kids. I also want to model being an elderly parent.  My mom was a good one. 

[G5052]

47 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I was going to suggest this. She can have the surgery and then go to inpatient rehab for a week or two or three. She will be taken care of and you can go visit her on your time schedule, not hers. Now, I wouldn't be surprised that once she tells the MD that she needs to go to rehab because there is no one to take care of her, that the surgery may get rescheduled as they get rehab set up.

 

In my area, getting rehab set up isn't a big deal at all, especially a month in advance. There are six within an hour that do post-replacement care including two within fifteen minutes. When DH went through they said that we could change our mind for care at home or care in a rehab center up to 24 hours before he was discharged. He went home, so they set up home health which included PT.

Where I grew up is another matter. In the city where my aunt had hers done, there are only two rehab centers that take post-replacement patients. For her surgery, they did indeed have to get the rehab center lined up with the surgery date or they may not have had a bed.  

Edited November 19, 2018 by G5052

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, G5052 said:

 

In my area, getting rehab set up isn't a big deal at all, especially a month in advance. There are six within an hour that do post-replacement care including two within fifteen minutes. When DH went through they said that we could change our mind for care at home or care in a rehab center up to 24 hours before he was discharged. He went home, so they set up home health which included PT.

Where I grew up is another matter. In the city where my aunt had hers done, there are only two rehab centers that take post-replacement patients. For her surgery, they did indeed have to get the rehab center lined up with the surgery date or they may not have had a bed.  

Christmas & New Year holiday puts a different spin on it. Yes, rehab centers are staffed 24/7 (most admit only 4 or 5 days a week) but that doesn't mean the administrators are there, nor does it mean that the pharmacy is available to deliver anything other than emergency medications. Administration is generally considered "non-essential" and if the office is closed, they don't work. The admission coordinator is an administrator. If some therapists (OT, PT, ST) are taking vacation, those that remain may only be able to handle current patients. Evaluations for new patients take a longer amount of time than a typical session.

ETA: Based on experience, I can say that I think the worst possible day to be admitted to a rehab center is a Friday. Many don't even do Friday admissions due to weekend staffing and to limited pharmacy service. I can't imagine Christmas Day or the day after would be any different.

Edited November 19, 2018 by TechWife

[LMD]

Just say no. You've already put waaaaay more thought and care into this than your mother did. 

No, my children are not on call interstate nurses.

[Jaybee]

As others have mentioned, from what I have heard, recovery takes awhile and is quite painful. She wouldn't feel like flying even if given the medical okay. It would also probably be best for her to be inpatient rehab for awhile even if her surgery isn't on Christmas Eve. You are not being unreasonable. She should have coordinated with you if she wanted your help. I don't see anything wrong with telling her that you will be glad to come in January (if you can).

[katilac]

Does your mom realize that January is a week after Christmas Eve, lol? If that's her busiest time at work, then Christmas Eve is a very poor time to schedule this surgery. Most patients can resume normal activities within 6 weeks, which puts her PAST January. People with very sedentary jobs may be able to return in 2-3 weeks, but that's still well into January. Driving is generally three to six weeks, which is mid-January at best and quite possibly past January. This is with no complications, just standard recovery times. Returning to work too soon can cause increased pain and additional complications, which of course leads to needing more time off.  

So, there are two potential dilemmas if she has complications or simply a longer recovery time. One, she cannot work during her busiest month. Two, you may not be able to stay as easily as you could during summer break (which may not even be a choice, either). 

6 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Another wrinkle--I suspect that she needs knee replacement surgery because it is very painful to walk.  So suggesting that she put it off is kind of condemning her to a lot more pain. 

 

Yes, but the need for knee replacement is not something that generally comes on suddenly. She isn't limited to the two choices of Christmas Eve or six months from now, and she has to consider the needs of her caregivers as well as her employers. People do take medical leave at busy times of the year, sometimes it's unavoidable. 

Most of all, mom should have been discussing this with the OP as things went along, not scheduling it and then informing her. 

I would do my best to help, yes, but within the context of knowing this is a passive-aggressive person and that the rest of my family is important, too. I wouldn't go up the day after Christmas; it's too likely she won't even be released then. Keeping in mind the resources that area available to her, I would pick a date that wouldn't make me boil over with resentment and tell her 'this is when I can come up.' 

OP, how overweight is your mom? I ask because it can be quite a job to help any person recover from surgery and all the more so if they are overweight or obese. And of course your physical condition matters as well; a stronger person will have an easier time. What you do not want is for both of you to go tumbling to the ground.  If she can do rehab for a week or so and get a feel for what she is capable of, I would definitely do that. The hospital will send her home ASAP if they know someone is waiting. One of my relatives had a hard time recovering and needed a bedpan at first and help walking; this was not easy (physically) for her carer to provide. 

I would make letting the doctors and rehab people give you information directly a condition of helping her. 

[lmrich]

Being in the hospital on a holiday is not the best. I would really want her to reschedule it until the 28th or something. But, even then, if January is her busy month, she will not be ready. 

She won't be allowed to fly 3 days post-op. 

[kiwik]

Elective in a medical sense simply means not emergency.  It doesn't mean not medically indicated.  Usually by the time you get a knee replacement you have been considerable pain and using heavy doses of painkillers and antiinflammatories for some time.  If someone could get surgery before Christmas I would never suggest they wait another six months.  If she can stay in hospital for three days after I would stay home for Christmas then take one of the girls with you to your mother's until she is able to travel.

[SKL]

What about a compromise?  Could 2 of your kids each spend a week with granny (with some overlap) and a week with you?

I don't think it's really a reasonableness / unreasonableness thing.  It sounds like granny is trying to make the best of a bad situation.

[sassenach]

37 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Elective in a medical sense simply means not emergency.  It doesn't mean not medically indicated.  Usually by the time you get a knee replacement you have been considerable pain and using heavy doses of painkillers and antiinflammatories for some time.  If someone could get surgery before Christmas I would never suggest they wait another six months.  If she can stay in hospital for three days after I would stay home for Christmas then take one of the girls with you to your mother's until she is able to travel.

But she doesn’t have to wait 6 months. She could schedule it any time, she is choosing her dates based on her own preferences. She may have to make different decisions if she wants family care. 

Edited November 20, 2018 by sassenach

[gardenmom5]

56 minutes ago, kiwik said:

Elective in a medical sense simply means not emergency.  It doesn't mean not medically indicated.  Usually by the time you get a knee replacement you have been considerable pain and using heavy doses of painkillers and antiinflammatories for some time.  If someone could get surgery before Christmas I would never suggest they wait another six months.  If she can stay in hospital for three days after I would stay home for Christmas then take one of the girls with you to your mother's until she is able to travel.

my grandmother, my mother, and my sister all had knee replacements.  (as well as several elderly friends). they all put thought into when they had their surgery done - and consulted with anyone who would help them afterwards.  they were able to schedule it when it worked for everyone just fine.

OP's mom is scheduling it when it is convenient for her.  (on christmas eve - no less.  I highly suspect passive aggression there.)  which would be fine if she had made arrangements for her pets and after hospital care.  (two weeks in rehab is quite common after a knee replacement.)  she didn't - she is expecting OP and OP's dds to  drop everything to be at her beck and call and provide the pet care and aftercare - and never bothered to consult with them about if they would even be able to do it.  that's a lot of chutzpah.  she gets zero sympathy from me.

[G5052]

FWIW, when I have knee replacement (likely in the next few years), I will schedule it at a time convenient for my two college kids. I will go to rehab while they manage the home front. 

At this stage of life, I don't want them helping me go to the bathroom and with bathing. I had to do a lot of that with DH, but it's different with a spouse. Maybe down the road as I age they will have to do that, but not now.

I told them that not long ago, and they were both relieved!

[Acadie]

12 hours ago, katilac said:

Does your mom realize that January is a week after Christmas Eve, lol? If that's her busiest time at work, then Christmas Eve is a very poor time to schedule this surgery. Most patients can resume normal activities within 6 weeks, which puts her PAST January. People with very sedentary jobs may be able to return in 2-3 weeks, but that's still well into January. Driving is generally three to six weeks, which is mid-January at best and quite possibly past January. This is with no complications, just standard recovery times. Returning to work too soon can cause increased pain and additional complications, which of course leads to needing more time off.  

So, there are two potential dilemmas if she has complications or simply a longer recovery time. One, she cannot work during her busiest month. Two, you may not be able to stay as easily as you could during summer break (which may not even be a choice, either). 

 

Yes, but the need for knee replacement is not something that generally comes on suddenly. She isn't limited to the two choices of Christmas Eve or six months from now, and she has to consider the needs of her caregivers as well as her employers. People do take medical leave at busy times of the year, sometimes it's unavoidable. 

Most of all, mom should have been discussing this with the OP as things went along, not scheduling it and then informing her. 

 

Katilac makes so many important points! It makes no sense for your mom to do this now, when her busy season is right around the corner. I skimmed the thread and I'm not sure we've heard your mom's take on how much pain she is in. It's possible that it's excruciating and she needs to deal with this soon, but when she considers how disruptive this will be, waiting may be her best option. Summer sounds ideal for her schedule, but early spring would probably be better than being incapacitated in January for work.

I'd strongly encourage her to reschedule, and talk with her about the nitty gritty details of recovery. Doctors' guidelines are one thing, but they often minimize how long recovery really takes. Other people who have had this procedure may be your most accurate source of information on that.

This is major surgery, after which she'll need significant help through a long recovery, and there could be curveballs along the way that require even more recovery time or support. I'd never ask a teen to handle it alone. 

Amy

[KarenC]

12 hours ago, katilac said:

Does your mom realize that January is a week after Christmas Eve, lol? If that's her busiest time at work, then Christmas Eve is a very poor time to schedule this surgery. Most patients can resume normal activities within 6 weeks, which puts her PAST January. People with very sedentary jobs may be able to return in 2-3 weeks, but that's still well into January. Driving is generally three to six weeks, which is mid-January at best and quite possibly past January. This is with no complications, just standard recovery times. Returning to work too soon can cause increased pain and additional complications, which of course leads to needing more time off.  

OP, how overweight is your mom? I ask because it can be quite a job to help any person recover from surgery and all the more so if they are overweight or obese. And of course your physical condition matters as well; a stronger person will have an easier time. What you do not want is for both of you to go tumbling to the ground.  If she can do rehab for a week or so and get a feel for what she is capable of, I would definitely do that. The hospital will send her home ASAP if they know someone is waiting. One of my relatives had a hard time recovering and needed a bedpan at first and help walking; this was not easy (physically) for her carer to provide. 

I would make letting the doctors and rehab people give you information directly a condition of helping her. 

The timing surprised me, not only because of Christmas Eve, but because January is so busy for her.

She's about 20 pounds overweight.  Her physical condition isn't too bad.

 

[KarenC]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

Elective in a medical sense simply means not emergency.  It doesn't mean not medically indicated.  Usually by the time you get a knee replacement you have been considerable pain and using heavy doses of painkillers and antiinflammatories for some time.  If someone could get surgery before Christmas I would never suggest they wait another six months.  If she can stay in hospital for three days after I would stay home for Christmas then take one of the girls with you to your mother's until she is able to travel.

I know she's not on painkillers.  She said her doctor has wanted her to replace both knees for years.  

[TechWife]

49 minutes ago, KarenC said:

I know she's not on painkillers.  She said her doctor has wanted her to replace both knees for years.  

Does she also have osteoporosis? If so, her bones may be weakening to the point her MD is concerned that if she waits much longer, they won’t be able to attach the artificial joint. That could account for the sudden scheduling. However, her MD could also have been telling her that he/she was seeing the joint damage accumulate and had told her that a time will come when she will need the surgery and that time has now come. This would mean that she is misunderstanding and/Or misrepresenting the situation. My mom didn’t take painkillers either, other than ibuprofen. Honestly, it was our experience that there isn’t much that helped the arthritis pain. My dad was on heavy duty pain killers late in life and it barely touched the pain. 

[BeachGal]

18 hours ago, nixpix5 said:

My grandma couldn't fly after her knee surgery due to an increased concern about a blood clot forming. That is what she told us. Not sure if that is a legitimate worry for someone as my sweet old grandma liked to tell tales 😋

 

Grandma wasn’t telling porkies this time. Blood clots are a legitimate concern. A reputable, local rehab center and an advocate are a good idea after joint replacements. Not flying!!

 

 

[G5052]

24 minutes ago, BeachGal said:

 

Grandma wasn’t telling porkies this time. Blood clots are a legitimate concern. A reputable, local rehab center and an advocate are a good idea after joint replacements. Not flying!

 

We just lost a good friend who broke her hip, and then developed blood clots. If you do develop them, it can take awhile for them to clear even with modern protocols. You don't want to go there.

[Berley]

No, you aren't being unreasonable. My mom had a knee replacement about two years ago. PT will likely start immediately. If your mom's busiest time of the year is January, she absolutely should not have the surgery at the end of December. Recovery is long, hard, and painful. My mom was in great health except for her knee, in great spirits, and was determined to be able to live life as normally as possible as soon as possible. It was several weeks before she could have even considered working, even at a sit-down type of job. IMO, even aside from the fact that she is being unreasonable to you and your kids, your mom should put off the surgery until she has the proper time to recover. 

 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, HeighHo said:

 

It sounds like Granny has just watched the movie about the procedure and recovery and realizes she is going to need assistance if she doesn't go to rehab.

Its not reasonable for two teens to be the caregivers for this situation unless they know what they are getting in to.  This is major surgery, there will be training needed in wound management, proper lifting (patient may fall,  will need help getting off the pot, etc) even though patient won't be discharged from the hospital until patient can manage going up/down a few steps and getting in/out the car simulator (which will be a sedan not something high up).  One teen that isn't very strong and hasn't done this job before isn't going to able to do it without injuring themselves.  There will also be transportation needed to the follow-ups and daily PT. There is going to be shoulder injury when patient won't follow the car in/out protocol.   This isn't a few weeks of help; its about six of a lot of help that needs more than one untrained person and its going to include PT, home exercise of walking and getting to the gym after PT ends as well as meals and light housekeeping.  A highly motivated person who can work through the pain of doing the daily walking and getting off the pot and bathing the first week or two will do fine if there is someone physically able and trained to help...but its a full time job for that helper. More if night help to get out of bed is needed. 

The best of this situation is rehab for Knee #1, then in-home with correct assistive devices, visiting nurse, and some planning ahead to get transportation to PT, and groceries delivered meals made ahead for Knee #2.  

in the rehab centers my mother went to  (they were good rehab centers) - employees do NOT lift.  they have a "lift" they use to get up a patient who has fallen.  it is very easy to injure yourself lifting someone. I've a friend with a seriously disabled son - she had to have shoulder surgery from lifting him.

a friend did return to work several weeks later - but there was a place she could go lay down if needed.  and sometimes she needed.  (she was in a position she could.  most people wouldn't be.).

 

I agree - granny needs to go to rehab.  is it lack of access?  or she doens't want to spend the money?

[KarenC]

11 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

in the rehab centers my mother went to  (they were good rehab centers) - employees do NOT lift.  they have a "lift" they use to get up a patient who has fallen.  it is very easy to injure yourself lifting someone. I've a friend with a seriously disabled son - she had to have shoulder surgery from lifting him.

a friend did return to work several weeks later - but there was a place she could go lay down if needed.  and sometimes she needed.  (she was in a position she could.  most people wouldn't be.).

 

I agree - granny needs to go to rehab.  is it lack of access?  or she doens't want to spend the money?

I think she wants to stay in her own house.

When I talked to her on Sunday, she was supposed to call her doctor's office and get details on what to expect after the surgery and what needs to be done and then call me back.  I still haven't heard anything.  

It's the passive aggressive crap that makes me crazy.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, KarenC said:

I think she wants to stay in her own house.

When I talked to her on Sunday, she was supposed to call her doctor's office and get details on what to expect after the surgery and what needs to be done and then call me back.  I still haven't heard anything.  

It's the passive aggressive crap that makes me crazy.

if she thinks staying in her own house after surgery is a good idea - tbh: she's not ready and doesn't understand what's involved.  (or it's about the manipulation of you and your daughters.)

I would strongly insist go to a rehab facility, and I'd refuse to bail her out becasue she doesn't want to.

eta: again, my mother, grandmother, and sister have all had knee replacements.

Edited November 21, 2018 by gardenmom5

[LMD]

4 hours ago, KarenC said:

I think she wants to stay in her own house.

When I talked to her on Sunday, she was supposed to call her doctor's office and get details on what to expect after the surgery and what needs to be done and then call me back.  I still haven't heard anything.  

It's the passive aggressive crap that makes me crazy.

Yeah, that's why she does it. So you're kept on your toes, easier to manipulate. 

No way would I be falling all over myself to facilitate this - nor would my children. "Sorry mom, gee you couldn't have picked a worse date! If you wanted my/my children's help you needed to talk to us first. Good luck"

[kiwik]

On 11/20/2018 at 6:38 PM, gardenmom5 said:

my grandmother, my mother, and my sister all had knee replacements.  (as well as several elderly friends). they all put thought into when they had their surgery done - and consulted with anyone who would help them afterwards.  they were able to schedule it when it worked for everyone just fine.

OP's mom is scheduling it when it is convenient for her.  (on christmas eve - no less.  I highly suspect passive aggression there.)  which would be fine if she had made arrangements for her pets and after hospital care.  (two weeks in rehab is quite common after a knee replacement.)  she didn't - she is expecting OP and OP's dds to  drop everything to be at her beck and call and provide the pet care and aftercare - and never bothered to consult with them about if they would even be able to do it.  that's a lot of chutzpah.  she gets zero sympathy from me.

I guess I am looking at it from a NZ point of view.  It takes years or agony to get to the top of the waiting list and you take what you are given.  The concept of choosing a convenient time is completely alien to us.

[ScoutTN]

On 11/19/2018 at 9:07 AM, KarenC said:

That's exactly what I thought.  Who does this?  

My mom is very passive aggressive but I'm the only living child and her sister passed away.  She has friends who could help her who live nearby, but I'm going to look into rehab places near her.

Yes, rehab! My mom needed the whole 20 days Medicare allowed for her knee replacement. After that she still had some in-home extra help for several weeks and needed rides until she was totally off pain meds. Always better to plan for a more difficult recovery than doctors tell you it will be!

[ScoutTN]

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

if she thinks staying in her own house after surgery is a good idea - tbh: she's not ready and doesn't understand what's involved.  (or it's about the manipulation of you and your daughters.)

I would strongly insist go to a rehab facility, and I'd refuse to bail her out becasue she doesn't want to.

eta: again, my mother, grandmother, and sister have all had knee replacements.

yes, this.

[gardenmom5]

19 minutes ago, kiwik said:

I guess I am looking at it from a NZ point of view.  It takes years or agony to get to the top of the waiting list and you take what you are given.  The concept of choosing a convenient time is completely alien to us.

that isn't what it is like here.    here, you and your dr determine  a knee replacement is needed - you schedule it when it works.  it's not after years of agony, and/or desperation so you take the first available date they give you  - (unless you didn't go in or aren't pushing for it).

most people I've known have gone to a rehab center afterwards - those that didn't, didn't fare as well becasue they weren't started on PT as quickly and they didn't do it if they could get away with not doing it.   it takes a certain amount of ruthlessness to be a good PT - you're dealing with (frequently) whiny people who are in pain, but they understand you have to work through it if you want to get better.   teens aren't ruthless enough to have that placed upon their shoulders.

my mil refused to do the exercises after a hip replacement.  the none of the PT's could get her to do anything.  she's still in a wheelchair and will be the rest of her life.

 

eta; we don't have waiting lists for joint replacement surgery.  it's about the drs schedule and when they have an opening.  it is generally a couple months out, but that also allows time for all the prep testing required.

Edited November 21, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Ausmumof3]

I guess things are different there.  Here some elective surgeries have a pretty long wait list so if you said no you might be waiting a few months to get another opportunity.  If it’s like that and she’s in pain all the time I can understand her grabbing the opportunity and hoping it works out.  In which case you would be doing what you could to help imagine.  But if it’s just a choice of that date or a date in two weeks time, she should have asked you first.

[Katy]

3 hours ago, kiwik said:

I guess I am looking at it from a NZ point of view.  It takes years or agony to get to the top of the waiting list and you take what you are given.  The concept of choosing a convenient time is completely alien to us.

 

It's not like that here at all.  The convenience, and the fact that you can pretty much schedule an elective surgery whenever you want is one reason that a large portion of the country is against public health care, even though I think we're the only developed nation that doesn't have it. Now finding an OBGYN when you live in a rural area might be nigh-impossible and you may have to commute an hour or more to find someone who will deliver your baby, but there are different factors there.

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I guess things are different there.  Here some elective surgeries have a pretty long wait list so if you said no you might be waiting a few months to get another opportunity.  If it’s like that and she’s in pain all the time I can understand her grabbing the opportunity and hoping it works out.  In which case you would be doing what you could to help imagine.  But if it’s just a choice of that date or a date in two weeks time, she should have asked you first.

 

We have very expensive medical schools here, and there are relatively few slots available. It's pretty common here for doctors to graduate medical school with $300,000 in debt. So then they can go into general medicine and make relatively little money after expenses are taken into account, OR they can go into a specialty and make a lot more.  Most choose a specialty.  So here if we have trouble finding a doctor it is more likely to be something like an OBGYN or pediatrician, not a surgeon.  Nurse practitioners/Nurse midwives and physician assistants try to make up the lack of doctors in the general medical fields.

[gardenmom5]

12 minutes ago, Katy said:

So here if we have trouble finding a doctor it is more likely to be something like an OBGYN or pediatrician, not a surgeon.  

or you live in a rural area, which are under served.   both for facilities (which are expensive) and providers.  there are many programs to get drs to go work in those rural communities for a few years to get bonuses for paying down/off med school debt.

and if you consider some specialties are 15 YEARS of training before they're done - you can understand why some make a lot of money.   they've invested a huge part of their "working years" life.

[Katy]

15 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

or you live in a rural area, which are under served.   both for facilities (which are expensive) and providers.  there are many programs to get drs to go work in those rural communities for a few years to get bonuses for paying down/off med school debt.

and if you consider some specialties are 15 YEARS of training before they're done - you can understand why some make a lot of money.   they've invested a huge part of their "working years" life.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing doctors.  I'm sure I would make the same choices.  Just trying to explain how this happens to those who don't understand how our medical system can be this way.

If anything I would argue about this not truly being a free market in medicine because there is an artificially low number of slots available in medical schools, but that's another topic for another day.

[Shoeless]

You aren't unreasonable.  Your mom is being very unreasonable in expecting you and your children to drop everything at Christmas and without involving you in the decision-making process.     

I don't know if your mom really understands what her post-op care will entail.  It's not just fetching the mail, making tea, and walking the dog.  It's nursing care!  It's not an issue of being unreasonable or selfish; do you or your children have the skills necessary to provide the level of care your mom will need?  Does she understand what she'll need?  

 

Been there, done that with a relative that wanted me to provide 24/7 care after an operation for a few months.  This relative assumed that since I'd worked as a vet tech, I didn't need to attend any of their doctor's appointments.  They assumed I'd automatically know exactly what they needed and it wouldn't be a big deal(!!!).  Spoiler alert: I do NOT know appropriate post-op protocols for humans, lol. And it was a big deal. I declined to provide the very high level of care they needed.  Some people still have a lot of feelings about that 10 years later. 

I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this.  Keep reminding yourself that you aren't being crazy or selfish.