Parenting Adult Children-Ugh (JAWM-Maybe?)

[Amber in SJ]

Ok here's the background-  Dd is 23.  She has been married for almost 2 years.  Next month she and her dh graduate with their undergrad degrees.  He has been accepted into grad school and she is graduating with her teaching credential.  So far so good, right?  She is finishing her student teaching/ internship year.  She taught US History at a high school in Utah where they live.  And here things start to get sticky.  She hated it.  She loved teaching; adored her students.  The parents made her life a living hell.  During her sophomore year of college she was diagnosed with depression and anxiety.  She has had it under control for some time but she really struggled this year due in part to the repeated attacks by the parents.  None of the student teachers at the high school were offered contracts for next year, and she was relieved, but now she is job hunting, or should be job hunting.  Her dh is not a citizen and they are going through the very expensive process of permanent residency to eventual citizenship.

And here's the problem.  She wants to have a baby.  All her friends & former roommates are having babies, and they are all relying heavily on their parents to do so.  She can't wait to have a baby.  My concerns are that she wants to have a baby to avoid looking for a job and that there is no way they can afford infant daycare or for her to stay home.  Due to his immigration status and upcoming grad school my dd is the primary income and with her job came the health insurance.  My other concern is if she has difficult pregnancies like I did.  I planned to work through my first pregnancy but hyperemesis and pre-term labor meant I had to quit part way through the school year.  

I have tried to gently express my concerns.  If they wait until her dh is almost done with grad school she will be 25.  25!  That is not too old for a first baby.  I had her at 24.   

I know that when they start a family is none of my business and I have no control over their choices, so all am I asking for is a "There, there, Dear.  It will all be fine.  They will not become homeless and live in their car in your driveway with your new grandchild."

Amber in SJ

 

[Katy]

bc you put maybe...   Make sure she knows you won't be financially supporting them the way their friends parents are.  Make sure she knows if she chooses to have a baby now she's choosing to go into debt because you are absolutely not going to be supporting the married adults who are capable of working but won't be because of their own choices. As long as she recognizes her circumstances are different because of who she chose to marry, and it's her responsibility to deal with the consequences of that, I think that's all you can do.

And of course they won't be living in their car in your driveway. Even if you let them move in with you it WILL all be fine.

Also, as discussed in the other thread - hyperemesis seems to have more to do with a woman's father's side than the mothers.  She might have easy happy pregnancies.

[SKL]

I think there is a good chance that if she decides to have a baby now, her dh will feel the need to quit or cut back on his education.  Will she listen if you put it that way?

[Guest]

Is her desire to have a baby related to his immigration status? Because if that is part of the reason it is probably only less likely that she will postpone. 

I would feel the same way as you do were it my kid but, as you know, they will have to face the music of their own decisions. A lot of people do have a baby in part to avoid having to do other adult things that seem less pleasant. There has been an element of this in my homeschooling, I’m sure. (It’s easier to continue homeschooling than figure out how to balance my life not homescooling.) 

Also, though, even if she does have a baby at a crappily-chosen time, all will not be lost; lot’s of people muddle through under imperfect circumstances and she could as well. But hugs to you, mama, because I know it’s hard when grown kids are being dense. 

[hornblower]

I think if you suspect they're expecting help from you and you know that will not be happening, then it's fair to make that clear up front. Nothing wrong with having a 'have you REALLY though this through?' discussion. You mention you have said things gently; I think I'd be more blunt just so everyone is clear. 

 

[Corraleno]

If you make it clear that you will not be able to support them, and that having a baby now may mean that her husband ends up having to drop out of grad school and get a job to support them (can he even do that with his current immigration status?), maybe she'll realize that waiting a few years is best for their future. I'd spell out some of the worst case scenarios very clearly (a complicated birth with no health insurance? husband gets deported if he drops out and loses student visa? etc.), and then let her decide if those risks are really worth it.

[catz]

I agree that it doesn't seem like a super mature thought process at play there.  Do you know how her husband feels about it?  I would be very upfront about your own struggles and what you can and cannot help with.  I also think it's good to put out there that it's a HUGE gift to your adult kids to be funding your own retirement and elder years.  Who knows what is coming down the road.  

I had my first baby at 30!  THIRTY!  LOL.  I worked as a professional for many years after graduating college.  I can't tell you what kind of financial flexibility that has afforded us.  

If you are financially supporting and helping them now, I think I would be VERY upfront if you are planning on pulling out of that soon.  I would keep pretty mum if my money weren't involved, though if I sensed my daughter expected help I might clear that up.

I do think it can be fine.  But an adult child just graduating college with a history of anxiety and depression who suddenly just wanted to get pregnant when it does not make sense for their current trajectory, that would give me pause.  If she does get pregnant, I'd be watching like a hawk for anxiety/depression issues.  And I say this as someone who had pretty severe PPD.

[Amber in SJ]

Thank you everyone, I knew I was in the right place for hugs.  I have made it clear that we will not be able to support them financially and they can't live with us, because we have no room not to mention we live in one of the most expensive places in the country.  We have not been supporting her financially for years.  Last year we did loan them the money to buy a used car because when they tried to get a car loan due to her student loan debt and the fact that he is not a citizen they couldn't find a bank or credit union to go for it.  They have been very responsible about sticking to the re-payment schedule.  They are paying on her student loans, because we couldn't pay for the entirety of her college education.  We have discussed the fact what because he is on a student visa, if he were to quit or even reduce his grad school her dh could lose his immigration status and have to leave the country (for the UK).  The school he is attending requires that they, as a couple/ family, have health insurance so if she doesn't have a job that provides them with insurance then they will have to pay the school $2K/ year for decent, but not great coverage that includes maternity.  My mind knows that they will be OK, even if they have to struggle.  But they would struggle less if she would just wait a little bit longer.  You'd think by now I'd realize that none of my children are going to accept the "Just do it the way I tell you and it will work out for the best." mode of future planning :)

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Amber in SJ said:

Thank you everyone, I knew I was in the right place for hugs.  I have made it clear that we will not be able to support them financially and they can't live with us, because we have no room not to mention we live in one of the most expensive places in the country.  We have not been supporting her financially for years.  Last year we did loan them the money to buy a used car because when they tried to get a car loan because she has student loan debt and he is not a citizen they couldn't find a bank or credit union to go for it.  They have been very responsible about sticking to the re-payment schedule.  They are paying on her student loans, because we couldn't pay for the entirety of her college education.  We have discussed the fact what because he is on a student visa, if he were to quit or even reduce his grad school her dh could lose his immigration status and have to leave the country (for the UK).  The school he is attending requires that they, as a couple/ family, have health insurance so if she doesn't have a job that provides them with insurance then they will have to pay the school $2K/ year for decent, but not great coverage that includes maternity.  My mind knows that they will be OK, even if they have to struggle.  But they would struggle less if she would just wait a little bit longer.  You'd think by now I'd realize that none of my children are going to accept the "Just do it the way I tell you and it will work out for the best." mode of future planning :)

(((hugs)))

 

I got nothing.  LOL.  I have an 'adult' son now.  He is 18 and about to graduate high school.  It is hard when they get to make their own decisions. :)  

[HS Mom in NC]

I would ask matter of fact questions in a matter of fact tone just like I would with any other adult: 

How will that work?
How will you afford that? 
How will a complicated pregnancy affect your plans? 
How does pregnancy affect depression and anxiety? 
Will you stay at home, work from home, or work outside the home?  Full or part-time? How much will it cost in childcare, taxes, etc.?
What will the two of you do if he loses his student visa?
What are his employment options if he's not in school?
How will each option affect his citizenship plans?
How long will it take to pay back the debt if you take each route?

Then, once she's answered them I'd drop it because that's what you do with adults. 

Is it possible she wanted to do the at home mom thing all along and was pressured by society into starting a career?  I'm the person who chose marriage and motherhood over college when I was 20, but I chose to marry a 26 year old with one of the most marketable skill sets (computer programming,)  had completed college,  had a great job and plenty of other prospects,  had no debt other than a reasonable mortgage on a starter home in a booming real estate market and a car payment, was all around a very stable guy content with either a career woman or a planning to stay at home wife. Sometimes we're so focused on the practicalities of becoming a career woman that we forget to think through the practicalities of becoming a stay at home mom. Don't misunderstand me, I do insist my girls each learn a marketable skill or useful degree because everyone needs a way to support themselves in this day in age and there's no way to predict when someone will marry and have children, but if you want to do the at home mom thing you should think about the practicalities of how the household will be supported while you're confined to bed with a complicated pregnancy (BTDT,) during recovery, and if you stay home before you go making any babies. 

*NOTE-Sex ed should always include a math lesson on how incredibly common failure rates are in every form of birth control, even when used meticulously, and why anyone who is trying to avoid pregnancy should use at least 2 methods at the same time.  Math's a heartless b!tch.

$2,000 a year for ok coverage is a STEAL!  My husband is a small business owner and that's what we pay in one month for the 4 of us for really bad insurance, the only option there is here.

[goldberry]

I would be so worried too.  

I hate adult-kid parenting.  All the worry and none of the say-so.  ((hugs))

[Tanaqui]

Quote

Make sure she knows if she chooses to have a baby now she's choosing to go into debt because you are absolutely not going to be supporting the married adults who are capable of working but won't be because of their own choices.

 

 

That's a really harsh way to speak about somebody whose mental illness was exacerbated by their previous job.

[prairiewindmomma]

As you know, in certain circles in UT there is a lot of pressure to marry and have babies young.  I really hope that this is a cultural aspect that will change with time.  I get the fear and the anxiety.  I really do. Hugs to you!  

[Carol in Cal.]

Something else to maybe mention to her, or at least to keep in mind.

If she accepts a teaching position she might have benefits like disability insurance and medical insurance either provided by her employer or subsidized or available at group rates.

That could mean that if she does get pregnant they would be in a far better place financially--with medical insurance to pay the delivery bills and disability insurance to provide an income while she is recovering from the delivery.  (It's important to check the caveats on those disability programs.  Some of them don't cover normal deliveries, just complications.  But still.)  but anyway, looking at a teaching job as a) temporary and b) what is going to make it feasible to have the baby she wants so much might make it more bearable.

As a former homeschooler, she should know that parents expect to have considerable say in their children's education.  It's important to come to terms with that as a teacher, and it's difficult when you're young and you feel like you're the expert and the parents should just admire you.  I hope that if she has a chance to think through her experiences with those parents that it might become clear to her that they were not SO bad, OR that they were SO BAD AS TO BE UNUSUAL.  That's often the best thing that can come out of a bad job experience. 

 

 

[gardenmom5]

sounds like teaching isn't for her - but there are many other areas she could work.   or just know - some parents are pitas.  I've a friend who went back to teaching after her husband died -  she's a very easy going person in many respects.  some parents . . . aren't. and that's the reality of the job.

 

[gardenmom5]

I'll also agree $2K for decent health insurance is a good deal. dh's an agent in our state - that is most likely a student rate going through the university.  

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Is her desire to have a baby related to his immigration status? Because if that is part of the reason it is probably only less likely that she will postpone. 

I would feel the same way as you do were it my kid but, as you know, they will have to face the music of their own decisions. A lot of people do have a baby in part to avoid having to do other adult things that seem less pleasant. There has been an element of this in my homeschooling, I’m sure. (It’s easier to continue homeschooling than figure out how to balance my life not homescooling.) 

Also, though, even if she does have a baby at a crappily-chosen time, all will not be lost; lot’s of people muddle through under imperfect circumstances and she could as well. But hugs to you, mama, because I know it’s hard when grown kids are being dense. 

this made me think of my experience.   when dh and I were married - he was done with school. he had a "real" job, and was building a house.  we had four kids.   within a month of weaning 2ds - the effluent had hit the fan.  He was laid off after a merger, and was out of work for 18 months. we had years of mergers, downsizes, startups, and business failures before he ended up opening his own business. (and doing better than he ever did working for someone else.)

so - things "can look good" on paper - but it's still just an illusion.  things can change in an instant.

gives truth to the "life is what happens when you're making other plans".

 

 

[lmrich]

You can let her know that I HATED student teaching. I love teaching. I loved having my own classroom and being in charge. Encourage her to give it a chance because being a teacher was completely different from being a student teacher. 

The baby stuff.. yikes! Why? Enjoy married life for a bit because a baby changes everything! EVERYTHING!!!

[Twolittleboys]

I do agree with you that this might not be the best time for a baby. However, it might work out. If I read correctly, the husband is from the UK? If so that would make me worry a bit less as having to move back there (if something really went wrong with his immigration status) wouldn't be a disaster. Oobviously the same is true for many other countries but given the similarities with language/culture your daughter could probably adjust there if it came to that.

[WendyLady]

I think my daughter is your daughter's twin!  My dd is graduating from nursing school in a month.  She is 23 also.  She has also struggled some with anxiety and depression since she returned from her mission (lds). Her husband has another year or two of school.  She has talked about her friends and neighbors starting families and has asked me how you know when the time is right to have a baby.  I'm hoping she waits a few years.  She is still so young!  Enjoy it!  My mom had her first when she was 27 and still had 7 kids.  Just a couple years!!

The main thing I have told her is that this time with her husband is a gift!  They have a chance to just be.  And giving him the opportunity to complete his education will (or should - you never really know) make a huge difference in their lives over the coming years.  It really is a gift to him to "allow" him to finish school without the burden of juggling school and work and a baby and a sick wife.

Anyway, that's how we have talked about it. I hope they wait a few years, but if they do have a baby sooner, that would be wonderful, and they will manage to figure everything out.  

 

(ps - this is not my very first post - I cannot log into my old account - wendy NOT in hawaii)

[Amber in SJ]

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Something else to maybe mention to her, or at least to keep in mind.

If she accepts a teaching position she might have benefits like disability insurance and medical insurance either provided by her employer or subsidized or available at group rates.

That could mean that if she does get pregnant they would be in a far better place financially--with medical insurance to pay the delivery bills and disability insurance to provide an income while she is recovering from the delivery.  (It's important to check the caveats on those disability programs.  Some of them don't cover normal deliveries, just complications.  But still.)  but anyway, looking at a teaching job as a) temporary and b) what is going to make it feasible to have the baby she wants so much might make it more bearable.

As a former homeschooler, she should know that parents expect to have considerable say in their children's education.  It's important to come to terms with that as a teacher, and it's difficult when you're young and you feel like you're the expert and the parents should just admire you.  I hope that if she has a chance to think through her experiences with those parents that it might become clear to her that they were not SO bad, OR that they were SO BAD AS TO BE UNUSUAL.  That's often the best thing that can come out of a bad job experience. 

 

 

As a former teacher I can say that I did consider her experience with the parents to be unusually terrible. 

For example she had a dad come to her classroom after school and shout in her face that she was a "piece of crap," and "human garbage," because she refused to take his son's work late after the quarter had ended. 

She had an email sent to her from a mom who said that she obviously hated students like her son because they are exceptional athletes and that is why she was failing him and that obviously she holds a grudge against athletes from her own high school years when she was not popular because she was stupid and ugly.  Only the student was failing because she had only seen the kid in class twice and had  no idea he was an athlete (he was a part of the golf club.) 

She received a barrage of emails, calls & parent visits accusing her of "pushing the liberal agenda," because of the lessons she was required to teach about the 19th amendment, using district approved materials. 

When she caught a young lady cheating and doing all the work for a boy in class that the young lady thought was cute, she made them go back and do their own work.  The mother of the young lady told her to her face that she is obviously a lesbian who can't stand to see a heterosexual couple working together.  

When she spoke to her mentor teacher and the administration they told her they sympathized with her, but couldn't do much about it.

Amber in SJ

[goldberry]

Oh my gosh, that's awful. 

[Corraleno]

WOW, Amber... I am really missing the emojis right now, because words fail me!!!

[Katy]

Wow.  That's terrible. I read this to DH, he suggests role playing different scenarios with helicopter parents. He had a line supervisor job in college that was similarly abusive (he once had an employee pull a knife on him), and that's how they prepared them. I suggest getting her into cognitive behavioral therapy so she can recognize the difference between the truth and lies from terrible parents.  Somehow recognizing that something is a lie can help you draw better emotional boundaries.  Also, this might be similarly too sticky/personal, but I have several friends and relatives that struggle with anxiety and depression ONLY when on hormonal birth control. If her depression started when she went on the pill she might want to try a different formulation or simply a non-hormonal method. For one woman in particular, cognitive therapy made a great deal of difference, but she really only developed better boundaries after both changing birth control methods AND cognitive therapy.  She described it like the hormones when you're pregnant - she had far less control over her emotions when on hormones.

[Amber in SJ]

And her experience at that school is probably why she thinks taking care of one sweet little baby would be easy by comparison :)

I have had several tongue in cheek conversations with her that begin with, "I know I made it look easy..."  but she was 10 when our youngest was born and that was the worst PPD I went through with any of them so I don't think she has too many illusions that it will be a walk in the park.

Amber in SJ

[City Mouse]

It sounds like she had a really crappy student teaching experience. Back when I did student teaching, we did not have any direct contact with parents. The actual classroom teacher dealt with all of that, but parents are the worst part of teaching. I haven't been yelled at yet this week, but there are still 2 more days left and I have the wonderful job tomorrow of calling parents as I report their "special" children for truancy.

Honestly, if her heart isn't in teaching, I would encourage her to take this time (without kids) to figure out what she does want to do. It is so much easier to explore other careers without the responsibility of kids.

on the other hand, if she is dead set on having a kid, there isn't anything you can do to change her mind, but a lot you can say that might be cause hurt feelings. 

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, SKL said:

I think there is a good chance that if she decides to have a baby now, her dh will feel the need to quit or cut back on his education.  Will she listen if you put it that way?

Which, in turn, could affect his immigration status. If he quits school he could be required to exit the country immediately if he is on a student visa.

[Liz CA]

I am thinking her experience with those kind of parents is really unusually terrible but also wanted to say that my niece hated student teaching years ago but is now happily teaching High School (of all ages) and is enjoying her work.

I would encourage her to try at least another year of teaching at a different school, however, encourage is all one can do when they are adults. If she tried again elsewhere and it was much more enjoyable, she may be wanting to wait getting pregnant until her dh finishes grad school. BUT, even if her dh's immigration plans derail, if he is from the UK, it would not be a drastic change to have to (temporarily perhaps) relocate there while he finishes his degree there.

[Tanaqui]

That's awful! I think that'd be enough to turn very nearly anybody off of working in education! There's no way that teaching pays enough to put up with that garbage.

[goldberry]

11 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

That's awful! I think that'd be enough to turn very nearly anybody off of working in education! There's no way that teaching pays enough to put up with that garbage.

Cmon now, those teachers in Oklahoma making pennies are just like greedy teenagers wanting a new car!  They just need to grow up!  Funny how the oil companies fighting for every dollar of benefits are just good businessmen though.  (insert angry face)

[Tree Frog]

13 hours ago, Amber in SJ said:

As a former teacher I can say that I did consider her experience with the parents to be unusually terrible. 

For example she had a dad come to her classroom after school and shout in her face that she was a "piece of crap," and "human garbage," because she refused to take his son's work late after the quarter had ended. 

She had an email sent to her from a mom who said that she obviously hated students like her son because they are exceptional athletes and that is why she was failing him and that obviously she holds a grudge against athletes from her own high school years when she was not popular because she was stupid and ugly.  Only the student was failing because she had only seen the kid in class twice and had  no idea he was an athlete (he was a part of the golf club.) 

She received a barrage of emails, calls & parent visits accusing her of "pushing the liberal agenda," because of the lessons she was required to teach about the 19th amendment, using district approved materials. 

When she caught a young lady cheating and doing all the work for a boy in class that the young lady thought was cute, she made them go back and do their own work.  The mother of the young lady told her to her face that she is obviously a lesbian who can't stand to see a heterosexual couple working together.  

When she spoke to her mentor teacher and the administration they told her they sympathized with her, but couldn't do much about it.

Amber in SJ

That's a problem with the administration, not your dd, and she needs to experience a better school so she can see it wasn't her problem personally. I'm a substitute teacher and have been in many different schools. Some I won't return to because the admin and faculty won't back up the sub. That sounds like the culture in the school your dd student taught in. I'm currently permanently subbing in a preschool spec ed classroom and the admin have been phenomenal.  Encourage your dd to try different schools; each school is "flavored" by how the admins handle situations, even within the same school district. (And may I say the admins absolutely could have done something about it? If they knew these were problem parents, they could have forewarned your daughter. They also could have called and spoken to the parents directly, asking why they contacted the student teacher, listening, responding appropriately, then telling the parents they may not make personal attacks on their teachers, and to contact the admins if there was another problem. They should have had your dd's back. These might not have been effective, but it's better than throwing up their hands and saying "Oh, well.") I feel terrible for your dd!

[Scarlett]

I agree that is horrible treatment.  Good grief.  What the heck is wrong with people. 

[Laurel-in-CA]

I had my first kid @ 36 and ended up with four. Waiting a couple of years or more should not torpedo family plans and it can make financial worries less of a concern.

My sister is a teacher (elementary school) and she has had bad parent years and good/quiet parent years. She's also had difficult student years and less challenging years. So much has to do with how much support the administration offers, especially to student/new teachers. Sounds like a combo of horrible parents and no admin. backup....what were they doing yelling at a student teacher for things that were *school* policy? Well, I don't know the ins and outs of that. Did she have a master teacher or know someone who's experienced in her subject area and in teaching to help her talk those issues through?

Hey, my college grad, gifted artist with a BFA, has had so many unemployment ups and downs that she is now working at Good Will. She should finish her probation just before her birthday, just in time to pay for her own medical insurance. Sigh.

[TechWife]

On 4/4/2018 at 9:54 PM, Liz CA said:

 BUT, even if her dh's immigration plans derail, if he is from the UK, it would not be a drastic change to have to (temporarily perhaps) relocate there while he finishes his degree there.

The  university system in the UK is different than that in the US, significantly so. I wouldn't assume that it would be possible for him to finish his degree there.

[Amber in SJ]

She is technically an "intern teacher,"  that means she is the only teacher in the classroom, she has to come up with her own lesson plans, manage her part of the website, etc, for one year.  She taught 3 periods of US History and 3 periods of Advisory (whatever that is.)  That is why she interacted with the parents.  She gets 1/2 pay and limited benefits.  She has a mentor teacher that she can talk to when she needs to.  As I mentioned in my first post the school offered none of their interns a contract.  I get the feeling that this is how the school gets teachers in the classroom without having to pay.  I have tried to let her know that I don't think her experience is usual and she would probably have a better experience elsewhere, but she has the baby idea firmly in mind.

They are adults so I am going to have to bite my tongue & be supportive.  My mom was great at that, so I am going to try to channel her vibe :)

Amber in SJ

[kroe1]

Sorry, I did not read the other posts.  You really have no responsibility in this matter other than explaining your wallet and your house is closed for adult children......unless, of course, it is not.