porn, sexual agency, education

[JumpyTheFrog]

There are some great blokes out there doing anti-porn work. Secular blokes too. 

 

I read an article or two about non-religious men doing research about the terrible effects of porn on young men. The comments were filled with outraged people claiming it was all a religious conspiracy and that these men must be Christian prudes.

[bibiche]

There are some great blokes out there doing anti-porn work. Secular blokes too. I'm all for education if it involves sex segregated workshops with a man who can explain to boys all the reasons, both altruistic and selfish, to make a conscious and deliberate effort to not be the kind of person who justifies porn and porn use.

 

I didn't get that from the article, that porn use was being justified. I got rather that people are realistic that porn is what is being used for sex education among young people and that the "porn literacy" class was being used rather as triage. 

[Liz CA]

I didn't get that from the article, that porn use was being justified. I got rather that people are realistic that porn is what is being used for sex education among young people and that the "porn literacy" class was being used rather as triage. 

 

 

Porn is not sex education. It is the commercial exploitation of an innate human drive, distorted and harmful. There are reams of research available on this. Whoever thinks they can sell "porn literacy" as bona fide sex education is deluding him or herself IMHO.

 

Kids and Teens may think or rather claim it's educational LOL. But adults should know better.

[bibiche]

Porn is not sex education. It is the commercial exploitation of an innate human drive, distorted and harmful. There are reams of research available on this. Whoever thinks they can sell "porn literacy" as bona fide sex education is deluding him or herself IMHO.

 

Kids and Teens may think or rather claim it's educational LOL. But adults should know better.

 

No one is arguing with that. But the reality is that children are relying on porn as their sex education because there is no sex education!

 

From the article:

 

Even as smartphones have made it easier for teenagers to watch porn, sex education in the United States — where abstinence-based sex education remains the norm — is meager. Massachusetts is among 26 states that do not mandate sex ed. And a mere 13 require that the material be medically and scientifically accurate. After some gains by the Obama administration to promote more comprehensive sex ed, which includes pregnancy prevention, discussions of anatomy, birth control, disease prevention, abstinence and healthy relationships, the Trump administration did not include the program in its proposed 2018 budget; it also has requested increased funding for abstinence education. Easy-to-access online porn fills the vacuum, making porn the de facto sex educator for American youth.

[bibiche]

I'd just like to know what poster pro this kind of literacy think is meant by being a 'savvy consumer' of porn.

 

My understanding is that they are helping the young consumers to see that it is exploitative, in addition to being unrealistic. In the hopes that they will think more critically about what seemed like an innocuous occupation (viewing porn).

[EmseB]

Saying some women choose to be in p0rn reminds me of the argument that some Duggar girls choose to be their siblings' nanny and genuinely enjoy it.  The argument says that sure, it may be true for some of them, but given their background and upbringing it's not like they have a real choice. I don't agree with all facets of this argument, by the way, but it's an interesting juxtaposition to me.

 

The whole appeal of p0rn is that it's an unrealistic fantasy of (mainly) what men would like to do to women, how the ideal woman should act during sex.

 

So p0rn literacy, IMO, should be to make people aware that it's unrealistic, exploitative, and not how men should approach women and therefore men shouldn't consume p0rn at all. because science has shown it rewires their brains in terms of sexual response and gratification.

[bibiche]

Better and more sex ed then, not allowing 'porn literacy' modules into school.

 

Oh, I agree completely. But this is America, land of the free, home of the Puritan.  Decent, informative, honest sex education ain't gonna happen.

[Hyacinth]

Porn is not sex education. It is the commercial exploitation of an innate human drive, distorted and harmful. There are reams of research available on this. Whoever thinks they can sell "porn literacy" as bona fide sex education is deluding him or herself IMHO.

 

Kids and Teens may think or rather claim it's educational LOL. But adults should know better.

 

We would all agree that porn is not good, valid, healthy sex education. But for some kids, whether we like it or not, porn IS where they get their ideas about sex.

 

I think people (including me) are assuming some things--good or bad--about the class. I don't get the sense that anyone affiliated with this initiative is selling porn literacy as bona fide sex education (as in, "watch this clip to see how to do it"). Quite the opposite, in fact. As I understand it, the class tries to shed light on the distorted messages kids have likely internalized as a result of their misguided and damaging "education" via porn.  

Edited February 8, 2018 by Hyacinth

[Liz CA]

My understanding is that they are helping the young consumers to see that it is exploitative, in addition to being unrealistic. In the hopes that they will think more critically about what seemed like an innocuous occupation (viewing porn).

 

 

This would require careful selection of therapists or adults who know how to handle this subject with a room full of teens. Quite a few factors would come to play and a willy nilly "porn literacy" program appears to have more potential for harm than good. And this would be more of an intervention than "porn literacy." The verbiage suggests there is a good way to handle porn, to be a "savvy consumer" - either the name is ill chosen or the program is not what you think it is.

Again, I have to refer to research on what some think is "harmless" pictures. We have escalated a long way from that.

 

I find this an interesting discussion but unfortunately I have to leave for work. ;)

Perhaps I have another chance tonight to read more comments.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Liz CA

[Sandwalker]

I'm the "porn is not ok type of feminist" so the only type of class I would like to see is one that is rooted in certain feminist philosophy about how it's the continued exploitation of women and marginalized people in society.

This

[EmseB]

I would tend to disagree that abstinence-only education is the norm in the US. I would argue that many/most places do emphasize that abstinence is the only guaranteed way to prevent STDs and pregnancy, but not that it's the only thing mentioned in a sex-ed curriculum in most places. I went to school decades ago and got way more than that.  Heck, we had a speaker come do an all-school assembly at our high school; he had AIDs and he talked about how to have a healthy sex life. Which rankled a few people at the time.

 

Then again, I tend to think that sex-ed in a public school setting is probably always going to be ineffective in terms of behavior modification, much in the way the DARE programs don't really keep kids off drugs.

[Sandwalker]

Depends on the education.

 

If it emphasises that 99% of porn is created under highly unethical conditions, that porn does not represent real life women, men or sex, that many practices shown in porn are abusive, and that excessive use of porn is likely to impact on relationships and sexual performance, sure. Somehow, cynically, I think 'porn ed' will come nicely packaged from some 'sex positive' organisation all about 'consent' and 'responsible use'.

 

Re using older women to 'educate'...honestly, that makes me feel a little sick. Plenty of decent sex ed out there that doesn't rely on porn or tired Mrs Robinson tropes.

This x 100

[Farrar]

To me, the most telling part of the article is that because there's such a dramatic lack of sex ed in the US, most teens feel p*rn is their only option to learn about sex in the first place. You want an early intervention, it can't just be "don't touch." It has to include detailed information about sex. Otherwise, kids who wanna know are still going to be curious.

[Farrar]

Porn is not sex education. It is the commercial exploitation of an innate human drive, distorted and harmful. There are reams of research available on this. Whoever thinks they can sell "porn literacy" as bona fide sex education is deluding him or herself IMHO.

 

Kids and Teens may think or rather claim it's educational LOL. But adults should know better.

 

Of course p*rn is not sex ed. Kids are using it as it. This is taking kids who are doing that and saying, hey, this isn't so great, let's explore that.

 

Yeah, it's not a p*rn is the worst thing ever you must quit right this second or else approach. It's a, let's engage about why you're making this choice and what it might be doing to you approach. I personally think that's much more likely to reach teens.

[Farrar]

Oh, ffs. Sorry to swear but I just read the description upthread of what Porn Literacy is.

 

No. Just no. How queer sex is portrayed in porn ? Wut ? 'Savvy oonsumption' ? Any mention of industry conditions ?! More pertinent.

 

Idk. I think I will skip reading this thread because there is a clear way to deal with porn, and that's to be honest about it. I can't face reading posts that spin porn.

 

The article actually cites something about how some queer kids find p*rn affirming, letting them know their desires are okay. I'm sure that's not universal, but that definitely reflects the experiences of some people I've known.

 

I'm sure we're not going to see eye to eye on this though.

[Katy]

I would tend to disagree that abstinence-only education is the norm in the US. I would argue that many/most places do emphasize that abstinence is the only guaranteed way to prevent STDs and pregnancy, but not that it's the only thing mentioned in a sex-ed curriculum in most places. I went to school decades ago and got way more than that.  Heck, we had a speaker come do an all-school assembly at our high school; he had AIDs and he talked about how to have a healthy sex life. Which rankled a few people at the time.

 

Then again, I tend to think that sex-ed in a public school setting is probably always going to be ineffective in terms of behavior modification, much in the way the DARE programs don't really keep kids off drugs.

 

You might want to look into this again.  George W Bush somehow linked school funding to abstinence only sex ed, and apparently a lot of areas have never gone back to the more liberal, "Abstinence may be best but if you're going to have sex do so responsibly," education that those of us that got sex ed in the 90's got.

[theelfqueen]

I appreciate the kids in the article saying "(program) ruined Porn for us" and that only a tiny % of them now think that sex portrayed in pornography is 'realistic' (a much smaller percentage than at the beginning of the program). I appreciate the kids recognizing that most people probably don't want to be slapped, spanked or choked during pleasurable sex, when they DID NOT KNOW THAT BEFORE. I appreciate teens learning that anal sex is often and normally painful, and not as commonly used in most relationships as it is portrayed in porn. Sure I'd rather that there not be a porn industry -- but the more people who recognize it as unrealistic -- the better!

 

I'm not sure how I feel about the program on the whole, but if these things are within their goals I don't think it's a terrible outcome.

[Farrar]

I worry that the kneejerk BAD! EVIL! BAD! reaction in this thread is just telling of how we're unlikely to be able to talk to kids about this issue as a society. I mean, we know that the majority of kids see p*rn now, most boys around age 13, girls around age 14. Most. We know that kids now consume a lot of p*rn. This is not a few kids, it's a pervasive thing. If you have an older teen who you haven't managed to hide under a rock, they've probably at least seen p*rn. For the kids for whom this is normalized, jumping out of nowhere - and to them, in a society that refuses to even mention that p*rn exists to them, grown ups suddenly screaming, "EVIL! You'll be warped! This is a crime!" is going to feel out of nowhere, even if it doesn't to you - is not going to be super effective. I mean, how many kids do you know who react really well to being told they're really wrong? ETA: Especially for something that they have been doing for awhile with seemingly no negative consequences from their perspective, and in fact, some positive ones, like greater understanding (or so they think) and decent masturbation material.

 

I'm not saying it's okay or that kids should be watching p*rn or it's all good or anything like that. We know from studies how harmful it can be to young brains to have repeated exposure to these narratives. But also, engaging and discussing and picking apart - saying, hey, are these narratives okay? does this show consent? does this show pleasure for everyone? is this normal? was this made ethically (and, sorry, some p*rn actually is - and not like 1% either, like some posters would like to claim)? I think this is more likely to get kids watching less or even stopping than trying to not discuss it and take it away and freak out.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Farrar

[GoodGrief]

I don't know what the solution is, but I am weary of seeing marriages around me crash and burn with porn, Craigslist, and various other online entities for extramarital connection as an obvious factor, if not the heart of the issue. The children are being hurt, and a self-perpetuating cycle is created.

 

Sex is at its essence a life-giving biological force, and, for humans, a means of emotional connection. People have always abused that particular appetite, of course, but the outright social acceptance of that misuse in our current age is becoming problematic. Our society is not benefiting generally from the increasing absence of moderation.

 

I've often thought that if casual sex made us fat, there would be multiple programs available to assist us in modulating that appetite and identifying healthy practices. We don't value relationships to the extent that we value hard bodies and cardiac health, apparently.

[Katy]

I don't know what the solution is, but I am weary of seeing marriages around me crash and burn with porn, Craigslist, and various other online entities for extramarital connection as an obvious factor, if not the heart of the issue. The children are being hurt, and a self-perpetuating cycle is created.

 

Sex is at its essence a life-giving biological force, and, for humans, a means of emotional connection. People have always abused that particular appetite, of course, but the outright social acceptance of that misuse in our current age is becoming problematic. Our society is not benefiting generally from the increasing absence of moderation.

 

I've often thought that if casual sex made us fat, there would be multiple programs available to assist us in modulating that appetite and identifying healthy practices. We don't value relationships to the extent that we value hard bodies and cardiac health, apparently.

 

It's been a long time since I read it, but Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth talks about how we used to expect women to regulate their sexual appetites, and now we expect them to regulate their physical appetites to be slim.  They're both an agency to control women as if we are commodities.

 

[Word Nerd]

.

Edited February 8, 2018 by Word Nerd

[Sandwalker]

 

 

It's been a long time since I read it, but Naomi Wolf's The Beauty Myth talks about how we used to expect women to regulate their sexual appetites, and now we expect them to regulate their physical appetites to be slim. They're both an agency to control women as if we are commodities.

 

And the high-heeled shoes so we can't run away

[theelfqueen]

And the high-heeled shoes so we can't run away

 

Having Jurassic World flashes.

[Liz CA]

I worry that the kneejerk BAD! EVIL! BAD! reaction in this thread is just telling of how we're unlikely to be able to talk to kids about this issue as a society. I mean, we know that the majority of kids see p*rn now, most boys around age 13, girls around age 14. Most. We know that kids now consume a lot of p*rn. This is not a few kids, it's a pervasive thing. If you have an older teen who you haven't managed to hide under a rock, they've probably at least seen p*rn. For the kids for whom this is normalized, jumping out of nowhere - and to them, in a society that refuses to even mention that p*rn exists to them, grown ups suddenly screaming, "EVIL! You'll be warped! This is a crime!" is going to feel out of nowhere, even if it doesn't to you - is not going to be super effective. I mean, how many kids do you know who react really well to being told they're really wrong? ETA: Especially for something that they have been doing for awhile with seemingly no negative consequences from their perspective, and in fact, some positive ones, like greater understanding (or so they think) and decent masturbation material.

 

I'm not saying it's okay or that kids should be watching p*rn or it's all good or anything like that. We know from studies how harmful it can be to young brains to have repeated exposure to these narratives. But also, engaging and discussing and picking apart - saying, hey, are these narratives okay? does this show consent? does this show pleasure for everyone? is this normal? was this made ethically (and, sorry, some p*rn actually is - and not like 1% either, like some posters would like to claim)? I think this is more likely to get kids watching less or even stopping than trying to not discuss it and take it away and freak out.

 

 

I have not read about anyone here freaking out. I think we are all too aware how pervasive it is.

I, for one, am not for the "you'll go blind" approach ;) but would rather stress how it reduces future ability to grow a truly intimate connection with another person, not an image on a clip. I have had many discussions about this with groups of young men and I always see their desire to have that kind of relationship with someone where they are accepted - fully, the good and the bad; where healthy boundaries exist and make room for growth. The are painfully aware that they are not getting it through porn but are often lost as to what path to take.

 

Engaging and discussing from an early age is always good. Not hammering a kid over the head for viewing porn because they are all exposed to it in various forms these days, is important. But it does not mean that we should endorse a program on "porn literacy"  - at least not from the info provided. 

 

As Sadie said, I would want to see a detailed syllabus and I would want to know that skilled people are facilitating this discussion. I think we owe our kids honesty even if we are uncomfortable discussing it, acknowledging how hard it is today to swim against the stream and exercise self-control and self-regulation. Those are not popular words anymore and are often carrying the connotation of cowardice or weakness in some circles.

 

I suppose my job has swept away any discomfort I may have had talking about sex, porn and what not.

And speaking of job, I better hit the road.

[EmseB]

To me, the most telling part of the article is that because there's such a dramatic lack of sex ed in the US, most teens feel p*rn is their only option to learn about sex in the first place. You want an early intervention, it can't just be "don't touch." It has to include detailed information about sex. Otherwise, kids who wanna know are still going to be curious.

I think that's a convenient excuse. Oh, there's no sex-ed so I feel like I have to avail myself of this thing that appeals to my base desires and fantasies.

 

Sounds like I couldn't find my pencil so I couldn't do my math and had to go play video games instead.

 

Porn isn't sex ed.

 

And, tbh, the fact that people need sex ed to figure things out is kind of laughable to me as a modern construct. Using a lack of it as an excuse to "need" porn is silly.

Edited February 8, 2018 by EmseB

[Farrar]

I think that's a convenient excuse. Oh, there's no sex-ed so I feel like I have to avail myself of this thing that appeals to my base desires and fantasies.

 

Sounds like I couldn't find my pencil so I couldn't do my math and had to go play video games instead.

 

Sex ed is genuinely not mandated in the US. Most sex ed that's done in schools is very limited.  That's all straight up true. So... you'd say teens don't need sex ed. And it would be lazy and base of them to look for information about sex?

[EmseB]

Sex ed is genuinely not mandated in the US. Most sex ed that's done in schools is very limited. That's all straight up true. So... you'd say teens don't need sex ed. And it would be lazy and base of them to look for information about sex?

See my edit. Porn is not "information about sex." No one taught me about naval aviation, so I needed to watch Top Gun to learn stuff. Now I need a class on why nothing in Top Gun is how naval aviation actually operates.

[LucyStoner]

Having sex at sixteen is not a criminal act. And as to its being preferable or not... eh, learning about sex from porn where women are debased or learning about sex from a real human being..? I mean, neither is what I would choose for my child but if I HAD to choose...

Prostitution is a crime in most jurisdictions. If the older woman is an adult, a parent could be faciliatating the statutory rape of their child. Sex with a professional is not anymore real to life than a lot of porn is. It’s a one sided transactional act.

 

I have a friend who is gay. His dad used to hire prostitutes to “show him he wasn’t gayâ€. At first it was just talk and then he actually did it, more than once. What my friend went through was being harassed, bullied and sexually abused. By his dad. I don’t think my friend has spoken to his dad in more than 2 decades.

 

When I was about 15 I was approached and solicited to have sex with a man’s son. Son looked to be about my age. I was waiting for the bus in a high prostitution area, in layers of baggy Seattle grunge punk flannel and wool and combat boots. I was savvy enough to tell them to get away from me but remain, more than 20 years later totally sleeved out to come that close to a man who thought it appropriate to hire someone to hace sex with his teenage son.

Edited February 9, 2018 by LucyStoner

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

See my edit. Porn is not "information about sex." No one taught me about naval aviation, so I needed to watch Top Gun to learn stuff. Now I need a class on why nothing in Top Gun is how naval aviation actually operates.

Naval aviation is not a biological process that you naturally become curious about. At some point, most humans are biologically interested in sex. Without adequate healthy education they will seek information elsewhere. In our current society, porn is the easiest to access resource. Without adequate education they don’t know it’s a bad resource.

[wonderchica]

This is a quote from the article:

"But for around two hours each week, for five weeks, the students — sophomores, juniors and seniors — take part in Porn Literacy, which aims to make them savvier, more critical consumers of porn by examining how gender, sexuality, aggression, consent, race, queer sex, relationships and body images are portrayed (or, in the case of consent, not portrayed) in porn."

 

I don't support the goal of making the students "savvier, more critical consumers of porn".

Surveys also show that many underage students drink alcohol. Should we also encourage underage drinking by creating classes led by a sommelier so they can be savvy in their drinking habits, too?

 

There is a teacher mentioned in the article who uses photos of genitalia in his high school "progressive sex ed" classes (at a private school). I think schools should be extra cautious when hiring teachers for sensitive subjects. There are enough disturbing reports about misbehaving teachers in the news to warrant extra scrutiny of someone spreading these "progressive" methods, in my opinion.

We saw pictures of genitalia in my lame, Bible Belt, 90s sex ed class. They were mostly riddled with diseases and meant as a turn-off, but they were certainly real pictures.

[EmseB]

My main point is that grown adults should refute the excuse that not having sex ed available in some capacity at school means that's a reason to look at porn. Instead, I see adults here confirming that's a legit reason to seek out porn.

[EmseB]

Naval aviation is not a biological process that you naturally become curious about. At some point, most humans are biologically interested in sex. Without adequate healthy education they will seek information elsewhere. In our current society, porn is the easiest to access resource. Without adequate education they don’t know it’s a bad resource.

Legit information about sex is as easy to access on the internet as porn.

 

Teenagers want to watch porn because it is temporally pleasurable, not because they're too dumb to learn about sex in other ways. I think it's hilarious that adults here are buying the "I didn't know any better because there was no class at my school."

Edited February 9, 2018 by EmseB

[Crimson Wife]

I would tend to disagree that abstinence-only education is the norm in the US. I would argue that many/most places do emphasize that abstinence is the only guaranteed way to prevent STDs and pregnancy, but not that it's the only thing mentioned in a sex-ed curriculum in most places.

 

I don't know how true a statement this is for the U.S. as a whole, but it is ABSOLUTELY true for Massachusetts. I grew up there and in my high school s*x ed class included practicing putting prophylactics on cucumbers.

 

[LMD]

Legit information about sex is as easy to access on the internet as porn.

 

Teenagers want to watch porn because it is temporally pleasurable, not because they're too dumb to learn about sex in other ways. I think it's hilarious that adults here are buying the "I didn't know any better because there was no class at my school."

Lol! They're not exactly googling how to be a generous lover or how to make foreplay amazing for my partner...

 

And even if they were, there are nasty, evil people out there targeting kids with absolutely vile filth. People who publish porn aren't trying to do a public service for confused teens, they're interested in shoring up their future consumers.

 

I would hope a class like this emphasised the violent exploitation inherent in the industry. Some literature from exited women would be good.

[momacacia]

Www.yourbrainonp*rn.com is an interesting site from the science side of things.

[nixpix5]

I worry that the kneejerk BAD! EVIL! BAD! reaction in this thread is just telling of how we're unlikely to be able to talk to kids about this issue as a society. I mean, we know that the majority of kids see p*rn now, most boys around age 13, girls around age 14. Most. We know that kids now consume a lot of p*rn. This is not a few kids, it's a pervasive thing. If you have an older teen who you haven't managed to hide under a rock, they've probably at least seen p*rn. For the kids for whom this is normalized, jumping out of nowhere - and to them, in a society that refuses to even mention that p*rn exists to them, grown ups suddenly screaming, "EVIL! You'll be warped! This is a crime!" is going to feel out of nowhere, even if it doesn't to you - is not going to be super effective. I mean, how many kids do you know who react really well to being told they're really wrong? ETA: Especially for something that they have been doing for awhile with seemingly no negative consequences from their perspective, and in fact, some positive ones, like greater understanding (or so they think) and decent masturbation material.

 

I'm not saying it's okay or that kids should be watching p*rn or it's all good or anything like that. We know from studies how harmful it can be to young brains to have repeated exposure to these narratives. But also, engaging and discussing and picking apart - saying, hey, are these narratives okay? does this show consent? does this show pleasure for everyone? is this normal? was this made ethically (and, sorry, some p*rn actually is - and not like 1% either, like some posters would like to claim)? I think this is more likely to get kids watching less or even stopping than trying to not discuss it and take it away and freak out.

I agree with you. I haven't really read a knee jerk response. I don't believe, based on what I read in the article, that this program is the answer. Your articulate post is much more in sync with what I feel is the healthy way to think about it but how we deliver the information needs to be done carefully.

 

My job provides me with way too many opportunities to answer sex questions. I am a go to much more than a peditrician or parent. Knowing this, my own sons spoke freely about their own relationship choices and when they chose to have sex for the first time. I much preferred being my own kids' person they came too and not the random counselor who may or may not share my values. The only way I got to this place with my sons was being open from the time they could ask questions. I had the porn talk around 10 with my sons in an organic way but I did say it was harmful and here's why. I didn't shame them by using guilt tactics like (the woman isn't being stimulated, they all are sex trafficked slaves etc) that is just as sensationalized as "you'll go blind" because much of the porn out there is amature home videos so that excuse goes out the window when taking that into consideration . My boys hadn't seen anything but I explained what they could come across and how it altered brain chemistry and IRL sex and relationships. They knew the basics of neurochemistry by then as well. To this day those boys still explain the neuroscience basis to their friends and ended up getting one friend to cut cold turkey from porn because he was an addict who went from vanilla to furry to bondage and rape videos by 22yo. He could no longer maintain an erection in sex with his girlfriend without having sex while watching videos. How do I know? They brought said friend over to my house for a talk. He told me he was scared because he was now fantasizing about abducting someone and raping them. He said he wouldn't but he was masterbating to this fantasy.

 

How can we as a society be burning men at the stake for being abusive and then be hand wavy about their porn consumption? We need our men to not have their brains primed for "women as objects"

 

We have gotten to a bad place in society where we are terrified to say something is bad for us. Drugs ARE bad, being obese IS unhealthy, porn IS dangerous, video games ARE addicting. We are all so afraid of offending someone's lifestyle that we sit with elephants hanging out in the room. I might be very unpopular for saying it but not all things can go and then have societal symptoms that we then scratch our head over why they are happening.

 

I was talking to a mom and was telling her a situation where one of my sons at 14 went to a party and then called me an hour later to pick him up because the parents were letting kids drink. She said "well I don't want to judge what others are ok with but I am glad your son called"

 

Yep, I was glad too but "not judge?" Nope, sorry, I am going to judge any parent providing alcohol for 14 year olds at a Halloween party. I am going to go a step further as a mandatory reporter... I am going to call the police which I did.

 

So that was off topic, I will stop now.

[poppy]

I don't know how true a statement this is for the U.S. as a whole, but it is ABSOLUTELY true for Massachusetts. I grew up there and in my high school s*x ed class included practicing putting prophylactics on cucumbers.

 

 

Can you imagine why any teen would have any appetite for porn when , after all, they DO get to see a condom put on a vegetable once!!

 

I mean c'mon.  It's 2 clicks on any smartphone.   Reddit > NSFW >  thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of video clips of every variety.  It is not like when we were kids. Not a magazine under dad's bed or in the moods.  It's instant and its easy and it's free and it's everywhere. 

 

Most of it is godawful.   Talking to kids about how unrealistic it is a good first step to understanding how godawful.

[GoodGrief]

I was talking to a mom and was telling her a situation where one of my sons at 14 went to a party and then called me an hour later to pick him up because the parents were letting kids drink. She said "well I don't want to judge what others are ok with but I am glad your son called"

 

Yep, I was glad too but "not judge?" Nope, sorry, I am going to judge any parent providing alcohol for 14 year olds at a Halloween party. I am going to go a step further as a mandatory reporter... I am going to call the police which I did.

 

So that was off topic, I will stop now.

 

Our society condones judging, but the approved subjects for judging are limited. I do worry that we are due for a course correction, and I wonder what that will look like.

 

[Crimson Wife]

Can you imagine why any teen would have any appetite for porn when , after all, they DO get to see a condom put on a vegetable once!!

 

I'm saying the excuse that "kids need p*rn because they're only getting abstinence-only s*x ed" is complete B.S. for Massachusetts, where this particular class is taking place. Those kids aren't seeking out p*rn to make up for their lack of s*x ed. They're doing it for the same reason teens used to steal their dads' Playboy magazines- they like looking at images of attractive, naked women.

[poppy]

I'm saying the excuse that "kids need p*rn because they're only getting abstinence-only s*x ed" is complete B.S. for Massachusetts, where this particular class is taking place. Those kids aren't seeking out p*rn to make up for their lack of s*x ed. They're doing it for the same reason teens used to steal their dads' Playboy magazines- they like looking at images of attractive, naked women.

 

If you look at what good, quality sex ed which touches on physical, social, emotional aspects (like the Our Whole Lives curriculum) vs the public schools which allows for "don't but if you, you will get diseases unless you take these precautions" ...... I would say public education is so inadequate as to be almost useless.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Legit information about sex is as easy to access on the internet as porn.

 

Teenagers want to watch porn because it is temporally pleasurable, not because they're too dumb to learn about sex in other ways. I think it's hilarious that adults here are buying the "I didn't know any better because there was no class at my school."

The issue isn’t just teens who might know better, might. Children much younger are accessing it before they would potentially have the cognitive reasoning to determine a good source of information.

 

If you’ve been kept in ignorance, at any age, you aren’t going to know what is a good or bad source.

[Farrar]

Nm. Not worth it. 

 

 

Edited February 9, 2018 by Farrar

[KathyBC]

No false dilemmas needed. Many countries have mandatory sex ed (and a lot of it) and porn is still a huge issue.

[LMD]

I agree with you. I haven't really read a knee jerk response. I don't believe, based on what I read in the article, that this program is the answer. Your articulate post is much more in sync with what I feel is the healthy way to think about it but how we deliver the information needs to be done carefully.

 

My job provides me with way too many opportunities to answer sex questions. I am a go to much more than a peditrician or parent. Knowing this, my own sons spoke freely about their own relationship choices and when they chose to have sex for the first time. I much preferred being my own kids' person they came too and not the random counselor who may or may not share my values. The only way I got to this place with my sons was being open from the time they could ask questions. I had the porn talk around 10 with my sons in an organic way but I did say it was harmful and here's why. I didn't shame them by using guilt tactics like (the woman isn't being stimulated, they all are sex trafficked slaves etc) that is just as sensationalized as "you'll go blind" because much of the porn out there is amature home videos so that excuse goes out the window when taking that into consideration . My boys hadn't seen anything but I explained what they could come across and how it altered brain chemistry and IRL sex and relationships. They knew the basics of neurochemistry by then as well. To this day those boys still explain the neuroscience basis to their friends and ended up getting one friend to cut cold turkey from porn because he was an addict who went from vanilla to furry to bondage and rape videos by 22yo. He could no longer maintain an erection in sex with his girlfriend without having sex while watching videos. How do I know? They brought said friend over to my house for a talk. He told me he was scared because he was now fantasizing about abducting someone and raping them. He said he wouldn't but he was masterbating to this fantasy.

 

How can we as a society be burning men at the stake for being abusive and then be hand wavy about their porn consumption? We need our men to not have their brains primed for "women as objects"

 

We have gotten to a bad place in society where we are terrified to say something is bad for us. Drugs ARE bad, being obese IS unhealthy, porn IS dangerous, video games ARE addicting. We are all so afraid of offending someone's lifestyle that we sit with elephants hanging out in the room. I might be very unpopular for saying it but not all things can go and then have societal symptoms that we then scratch our head over why they are happening.

 

I was talking to a mom and was telling her a situation where one of my sons at 14 went to a party and then called me an hour later to pick him up because the parents were letting kids drink. She said "well I don't want to judge what others are ok with but I am glad your son called"

 

Yep, I was glad too but "not judge?" Nope, sorry, I am going to judge any parent providing alcohol for 14 year olds at a Halloween party. I am going to go a step further as a mandatory reporter... I am going to call the police which I did.

 

So that was off topic, I will stop now.

My bold. Do you have any tips for me? My oldest son is 10.

[bibiche]

It's a false binary - allow teens to be educated into 'savvy consumers of porn' at school, or keep kids in ignorance. There is a third way.

 

But you have to get to them first! And curious kids who are earnestly looking for info because sex ed at school is abysmal will stumble on porn and take it from there. I'm sure that not every kid who watches porn got to that stage through wicked intent, as has been implied.

[gardenmom5]

I'm not sure it matters, but to clarify, he was talking about having a friend do the um, educating. Not hiring someone. 

 

 

eeewwww.  just gross.   so, because she's a "family friend", she's doing it "for free".

 

she's not in a romantic relationship with this boy - and won't ever be.  (let alone anything more permanent.)

 

he's underage - and the "friend" would be an adult.  still predatory (the father is helping).    this is the mentality of men who think a 16 year old boy having s3x with his teacher is harmless.

[gardenmom5]

Having sex at sixteen is not a criminal act.  And as to its being preferable or not... eh, learning about sex from porn where women are debased or learning about sex from a real human being..? I mean, neither is what I would choose for my child but if I HAD to choose.

 

 

 

not exactly true.  it depends upon the age of the other party/parties.

[NewIma]

I have thought about a parallel topic a lot. When I was a kid the first real exposure I had to sexuality was disturbing fiction with abusive or otherwise unhealthy relationships. These stories were not necessarily explicit but implied and in the normal young adult section. It warped me a little and I don't want my kids to have a similar introduction to sexuality so I have thought about casually leaving cheesy light romance novels around when my kids are teens so that I can make sure they are exposed to more positive accounts.  When I've put this idea out there to friends they have been appalled so I'm not sure if I'm totally crazy to consider that or not. 

[ktgrok]

I have thought about a parallel topic a lot. When I was a kid the first real exposure I had to sexuality was disturbing fiction with abusive or otherwise unhealthy relationships. These stories were not necessarily explicit but implied and in the normal young adult section. It warped me a little and I don't want my kids to have a similar introduction to sexuality so I have thought about casually leaving cheesy light romance novels around when my kids are teens so that I can make sure they are exposed to more positive accounts.  When I've put this idea out there to friends they have been appalled so I'm not sure if I'm totally crazy to consider that or not. 

 

Not crazy! I've read articles written by women talking about what a positive impact romance novels with strong females had on them, as far as knowing what they deserve, etc. 

[bibiche]

eeewwww.  just gross.   so, because she's a "family friend", she's doing it "for free".

 

she's not in a romantic relationship with this boy - and won't ever be.  (let alone anything more permanent.)

 

he's underage - and the "friend" would be an adult.  still predatory (the father is helping).    this is the mentality of men who think a 16 year old boy having s3x with his teacher is harmless.

 

Eh, he's French. I don't have any idea if he ended up doing it as I moved away and lost touch. He certainly didn't believe (nor do I) that a romantic relationship was necessary for sex. That wasn't his goal.