Dss16

[Guest]

People can gain and retain weight for many different reasons. Uncontrolled eating due to cravings is one of them. Weight loss sites, programs and doctors do provide suggestions and strategies to handle it:

 

Identify your triggers and avoiding them is one.

 

Take one bite is another -some people are happy with that first taste and can then put it away. Others have just been triggered do this won’t work for them.

 

Have an appetizer like soup or salad to take the edge off of hunger. It’s easier to make decisions when you aren’t ravenous.

 

Drink water. Some of what we think are hunger cues are actually cues that we are thirsty.

 

Don’t let your Bloodsugar get too low. If you are too low then you won’t make good decisions partly because you will be shoveling sugar to keep from passing out. (This happens to my very thin diabetic husband. It’s still not good for him because then his sugars spike in response )

 

Make meals and snacks mindful. Mindless eating leads to eating too much because you are no longer eating to satisfy hunger but to alleviate boredom.

 

Brush your teeth once you’ve had enough. It’s often enough to keep people from continuing to graze especially at night.

 

Sometimes people crave what they are allergic to.

 

I could go on but I have to let the dog out to pee.

I agree with every bit of this advice. I find that if *I* say this, though, I’m just the clueless skinny lady telling people to exercise willpower. It gets heard differently.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree with every bit of this advice. I find that if *I* say this, though, I’m just the clueless skinny lady telling people to exercise willpower. It gets heard differently.

Read this next post of mine.  I wasn't done. 

 

I’m back.

 

The tips I gave above are enough for some people. But not all. Some need the Prozac or other meds that Kassia mentioned. They might have certain hormones that are out of whack. And it’s not as simple as telling them to stop eating already. Depending on the cause for the uncontrollable eating it might be as insensitive as telling someone with OCD to stop washing their hands already.

 

Uncontrollable eating is actually not my issue but I have a lot of compassion for those who struggle with it. Our culture puts food (and frequently trigger food) in front of people constantly. Social engagements can be a mine field. So can the company break room. And so can home refrigerators and pantries. Trying to just do it on willpower can feel overwhelming especially if you feel like you are going to be walking those mine fields for the rest of your life.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ktgrok]

I’m not opposed to studying these issues; if we can find out more and develope other ways to manage food consumption issues, I am all in favor.

 

My instinctive reaction, though, is to disbelieve this is an important cause of the US’ obesity epidemic. For one thing, nutrition and food scarcity has been the norm throughout human history. Historically, only top-class people (kings, lords, tribal leaders) could even possibly be fat because the vast numbers of “regular people†could not access a surplus of food or lesiure. It was lucky if they could even access enough food to survive. Throughout history skinny = insufficient resources.

 

That's why everyone is saying it is a complex combination of factors. There is no one cause of cancer. There is no one cause of obesity. There is no single right treatment for such a complex disease. But to say that you don't care what science and studies say, or what people actually dealing with the problem say, because you personally don't see it that way is kind of crazy to me. No, epigenetic changes don't make you fat on their own, there has to be food too. That was probably the purpose of the change, evolutionary wise. If there was scarcity this insured the offspring could survive on little food. But the changes, coupled with the amount of food in the environment, do explain it. And the changes might also explain the out of proportion hunger that the person wired for obesity feels. Or it might just be that it is that change plus one other thing....maybe an antibiotic in childhood (also linked to obesity later in life) or something else. We don't know yet. 

 

WE do know that epigenetics play a role. We have the data to show that. We can look at DNA and see changes at this point. 

[ktgrok]

Quill...when both the scientists and the doctors and the people suffering from the disease are all saying these things, and you say no, that doesn't make sense.....what makes you think you have a better understanding than those actually studying, treating, and living with the disease?

 

Like all of the obese people never thought to try exercising, or tracking their food, or drinking more water? We have. We tried weight watchers and only eating whole foods and cutting out all junk food and exercise classes and personal trainers and everything else. 

[Joules]

I've never heard of this before...interesting.

 

From my own experience, I believe it's the brain. I was anorexic in the 90s and started losing control with huge binges. My doctor prescribed Prozac for me. I almost immediately lost the desire to binge. I believe the binging was caused by a lack of serotonin, and my brain was pushing me to binge on foods high in serotonin (lots and lots of carbs). Once the Prozac was providing serotonin, my brain didn't push me to binge anymore. Unfortunately, the effects of the Prozac wore off, but my response to the meds was fascinating to me and made me realize that it wasn't just an issue of willpower.

Ninety percent of the body’s serotonin is made in the digestive system. Microbes have a huge role in that:

http://www.caltech.edu/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ninety percent of the body’s serotonin is made in the digestive system. Microbes have a huge role in that:

http://www.caltech.edu/news/microbes-help-produce-serotonin-gut-46495

 

Yeah.  Sigh.  This is 90% of why I have a weight problem.  But when I have an out of control immune system that has needed 6 or 7 months of antibiotics at a time for numerous years (and if they hadn't worked in the end the doctors didn't know what they would have done), my gut flora is toast.  I'm actually losing a bit now when I went from "normal" gluten free to "celiac level" gluten free.  And for all of you who think it is a simple calorie in/ calorie out formula, there really isn't any caloric difference between gluten free soy sauce and normal soy sauce.  I  have actually seriously wondered about getting a fecal transplant (aka a poop pill) from someone who is slender and healthy. 

[Guest]

Quill...when both the scientists and the doctors and the people suffering from the disease are all saying these things, and you say no, that doesn't make sense.....what makes you think you have a better understanding than those actually studying, treating, and living with the disease?

 

Like all of the obese people never thought to try exercising, or tracking their food, or drinking more water? We have. We tried weight watchers and only eating whole foods and cutting out all junk food and exercise classes and personal trainers and everything else.

For one thing, doctors are not necessarily above making you believe you can’t succeed without their costly help. I’m not villifying all doctors, just saying that there is nothing surprising about a professional in authority convincing people that they can’t succeed without their expensive assistance.

 

Secondly, even many medically-assisted programs that do succeed are predicated on this same concept: reduce the amount of food one eats. Even bariatric surgery is still based on this same concept. It aims to make it physically impossible (or very close to) to consume more than a very small portion of food.

 

Thirdly, people are known to be poor judges of their own behavior, especially when they have an issue with psychological roots. That is how an alcoholic can keep telling himself he is fine and just doing what normal people do while he can’t go one evening without drinking himself into a stupor. That’s how a compulsive shopper can keep opening secret credit cards and playing card roulette while her debt accrues into the tens of thousands of dollars. It’s not that I think a person willfully lies about what their eating habits are; it’s that I think sometimes people cannot see what they actually do. I have sat at a lunch table before with a lovely lady, who was saying she could not figure out why it is impossible to lose these twenty pounds *while* she was taking a bite of her Philly Cheesesteak and drinking a Coke. She was “blaming†it on birth control pills which certainly might have played a roll, but this meal was certainly not health food.

 

I am not saying all people, no matter how obese, no matter for how long, should just simply try tracking food and drinking water. Clearly, there is a level of obesity and sometimes also an early age of onset that greatly negatively impacts the probability one will ever be thin. There are people in my family who have been obese since teen years and have never reversed that by much and probably never will. When this is the case, it is probably not possible to change it much except with medical intervention AND a whole lotta want-to. At the same time, I don’t think society benefits from emphasizing that weight control is just an impossible monster beyond one’s control. I think culturally, we do a lot of things that are not good for the attitudes of young people growing up now. They think certain foods and snacks are normal and it is leading to a high incidence of childhood obesity, which then, I am sure, DOES cause dysfunctional hornome balance and body chemistry in those kids, making it unlikely that they will EVER be a normal weight.

[ktgrok]

Even bariatric surgery is still based on this same concept. It aims to make it physically impossible (or very close to) to consume more than a very small portion of food.

 

 

Actually the physical restriction is only one mechanism. There is research showing that hormonal changes and gut bacteria changes may play the bigger role in weight loss by reducing appetite and changing what tastes good.

 

You also didn't address the scientists studying obesity....doctors are just looking to get rich and fat people are lousy at knowing what they are doing (despite tracking every bite ), what is the scietists' angle?

 

Or maybe, since they all have it wrong you can explain how to fix obesity?

Edited December 31, 2017 by ktgrok

[regentrude]

Actually the physical restriction is only one mechanism. There is research showing that hormonal changes and gut bacteria changes may play the bigger role in weight loss by reducing appetite and changing what tastes good.

 

 

May I ask a question: through what mechanism does bariatric surgery cause hormonal changes? Inquiring mind wants to know. I, too, always thought that its main function was to reduce stomach size and limit caloric intake, but you know way more than me about this topic.

[itsheresomewhere]

May I ask a question: through what mechanism does bariatric surgery cause hormonal changes? Inquiring mind wants to know. I, too, always thought that its main function was to reduce stomach size and limit caloric intake, but you know way more than me about this topic.

It can. DH had a sleeve done almost 6 years ago. He is still monitored for changes but he didn’t have any.So far, the ones we know who had hormonal changes are women.

Edited December 31, 2017 by itsheresomewhere

[maize]

May I ask a question: through what mechanism does bariatric surgery cause hormonal changes? Inquiring mind wants to know. I, too, always thought that its main function was to reduce stomach size and limit caloric intake, but you know way more than me about this topic.

I do not think the mechanisms are well understood yet.

 

We have a very long way to go in our understanding of complex biological processes and interactions. Given a few more decades of research I believe our current level of knowledge will look like the dark ages.

 

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449984/

[ktgrok]

May I ask a question: through what mechanism does bariatric surgery cause hormonal changes? Inquiring mind wants to know. I, too, always thought that its main function was to reduce stomach size and limit caloric intake, but you know way more than me about this topic.

 

Actually, no one knows!!!!  But it somehow immediately changes the expression/levels of certain gut hormones. Ones that are linked to hunger and satiety. Ones I had never heard of before looking into surgery, lol. Ghrelin is in the stomach, and my surgery (sleeve gastrectomy) reduces that, although possibly only temporarily, but also ones in the intestines like GLP-1, PYY, and oxyntomodulin. These changes happen before any weight loss. Also, the pancreas has changes, with insulin/glucose levels going to normal sometimes within 24 hours of surgery, again, before any weight loss. 

 

There are also significant changes to gut flora. These things are all being studied now, with the hopes of creating a non surgical gastric bypass effect one day. But right now, statistically, the best chance at "fixing" morbid obesity is still surgery. 

[ktgrok]

It can. DH had a sleeve done almost 6 years ago. He is still monitored for changes but he didn’t have any.So far, the ones we know who had hormonal changes are women.

 

  I didn't think most people were checked for things like GLP-1, PYY, and oxyntomodulin, etc? I'm not talking about testosterone, estrogen, etc, but hormones specific to the gut. 

[Guest]

Actually the physical restriction is only one mechanism. There is research showing that hormonal changes and gut bacteria changes may play the bigger role in weight loss by reducing appetite and changing what tastes good.

 

You also didn't address the scientist studying obesity....doctors are just looking to get rich and fat people are lousy at knowing what they are doing (despite tracking every bite ), what is the scientsts angle?

 

Or maybe, since they all have it wrong you can explain how to fix obesity?

I have no idea how to fix obesity. You seem to be assuming things I am not saying. I asked repeatedly - what is the solution, according to the writer of the article? Nobody is answering that, either.

 

Presumably, a scientist is studying obesity because he or she wants to find out more about how to address it. Doesn’t mean he or she is barking up the wrong tree; doesn’t mean he or she is not.

 

Scientists also once concluded that infant formula was superior to breastmilk in every way. It was scientifically formulated to be exactly what a baby needed to grow healthily, with the bonus of being deliverable by any person old enough to hold a bottle. They were totally wrong, of course.

[Scarlett]

I have no idea how to fix obesity. You seem to be assuming things I am not saying. I asked repeatedly - what is the solution, according to the writer of the article? Nobody is answering that, either.

 

Presumably, a scientist is studying obesity because he or she wants to find out more about how to address it. Doesn’t mean he or she is barking up the wrong tree; doesn’t mean he or she is not.

 

Scientists also once concluded that infant formula was superior to breastmilk in every way. It was scientifically formulated to be exactly what a baby needed to grow healthily, with the bonus of being deliverable by any person old enough to hold a bottle. They were totally wrong, of course.

Yes. That is one of many examples. Current medical understanding is just that....current understanding.

 

I know I have this conversation with my son often. He thinks what is being published currently is THE TRUTH. he just can't conceive how many times in his life he will see the pendulum swing.

[Alessandra]

I haven't read all the posts, but here is an article about diet in India.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/26/health/india-diabetes-junk-food.html?_r=0

 

As people move to a Western diet, diabetes has increased, apparently there is a phenomenon of 'thin fat people,' not necessarily overweight, but with medical conditions associated with excess weight.

[itsheresomewhere]

I didn't think most people were checked for things like GLP-1, PYY, and oxyntomodulin, etc? I'm not talking about testosterone, estrogen, etc, but hormones specific to the gut.

It is mandatory for DH’s doctor.

[scoutingmom]

 

 

I have no idea how to fix obesity. You seem to be assuming things I am not saying. I asked repeatedly - what is the solution, according to the writer of the article? Nobody is answering that, either.

 

Presumably, a scientist is studying obesity because he or she wants to find out more about how to address it. Doesn’t mean he or she is barking up the wrong tree; doesn’t mean he or she is not.

 

So should a scientist not share what has been learned, even if so far it is "we don't have a clue how to fix it, but this, this, and this do not?"

[ktgrok]

It is mandatory for DH’s doctor.

 

Fascinating!

[ktgrok]

I have no idea how to fix obesity. You seem to be assuming things I am not saying. I asked repeatedly - what is the solution, according to the writer of the article? Nobody is answering that, either.

 

 

And we keep saying there is no one answer, at this point. But there is a lot of information, and you keep seeming to say that that information must be wrong because it doesn't match up with the anecdotal experiences you have had with people. 

 

The truth is, we don't know how to cure obesity. So same as you. But we are getting closer, with lots of research. Research you seem to be denying because it hasn't found an answer yet. 

[EmseB]

I have no idea how to fix obesity. You seem to be assuming things I am not saying. I asked repeatedly - what is the solution, according to the writer of the article? Nobody is answering that, either.

 

Presumably, a scientist is studying obesity because he or she wants to find out more about how to address it. Doesn’t mean he or she is barking up the wrong tree; doesn’t mean he or she is not.

 

Scientists also once concluded that infant formula was superior to breastmilk in every way. It was scientifically formulated to be exactly what a baby needed to grow healthily, with the bonus of being deliverable by any person old enough to hold a bottle. They were totally wrong, of course.

 

I don't have a dog in this discussion, but I think scientists and studies also had a large hand in the current obesity epidemic by promoting a low fat, high carb diet for many, many years. We were told that eating any fat made you fat and unhealthy. So we took the fats out of our foods, replaced the flavor with sugar and salt, ate a bunch of breads and grains and it is turning out that that sort of diet makes a lot of people not just overweight, but really unhealthy.

 

So some people might (rightfully, IMO) not take claims at face value as, oh, NOW we are certain.

Edited December 31, 2017 by EmseB

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. wow, hold the phone.  Do scientists make mistakes?  Sure.  Frequently based on incomplete data IMHO.  Are there a lot of confusing and conflicting schools of thought scientifically regarding obesity?  Yep.  Does that mean we stick our head in the sand and say all scientific/medical data is faulty and should be actively ignored? 'Cause that is kind of the vibe I am getting here.  Does that also mean that those who have never dealt with morbid obesity should toss out any and all feedback from those who have?  'Cause that sounds pretty mucked up, too, IMHO, but that is also kind of the vibe I am getting. 

 

FTR, I don't think anyone on this thread is saying that there is no way to lose weight or that eating piles of junk food or even just food in general does not play a factor in weight gain.  Pretty sure I didn't read anyone saying that. (I am not addressing the link up thread, only the posters). What they DO seem to be saying is that we are discovering there are more factors involved and once morbid obesity exists those factors are compounded and may heavily affect whether an attempt to lose weight will be successful long term or not. 

 

Is the diet of the average United States citizen full of garbage? Yes.  Would we as a nation be healthier if our diet were healthier?  Yes.  Absolutely.  I believe that 100%.  But this is NOT an either/or situation.  Does this child need exercise and a healthy diet?  Yes.  Most people do.  Will diet and exercise help?  Yes almost certainly he will be better off with a proper diet and exercise.  HOWEVER, this child doesn't just have 20-30 pounds to drop (which can be very challenging, don't get me wrong, but 20-30 is a heck of a lot more doable than what this child is facing).  And his body chemistry is already mucked up.  He already has health issues.  

 

1.  Losing weight, especially at this level, is a complex issue and what works for one may not work for another.  "One size fits all" does not work for most things regarding the human race because like it or not we are all different.  What worked for my daughter to teach her dyslexic brain to read did not work as effectively for my dyslexic son, for instance.  Was he trying less?  Hell no.  Trying harder.  And gifted, unlike DD.  Still was less effective.  Why?  Because different people are different.  Therefore, it may take time to tweak out what will work for this child.  Proactively seeking answers instead of hoping for the best seems a pretty good step to me.

 

2.  There have been many potentially useful suggestions on this thread.  Hopefully something will work for Scarlet's DSS. 

 

3.  What has NOT been working so far is simply telling him to lose weight by exercising and eating healthy, even with Scarlet trying to provide healthy meals.  It isn't working.  It is sort of irrelevant at this point as to WHY it isn't working.  It seems screamingly apparent to me that he needs a stronger support system and as a teenager with existing health issues, including already being morbidly obese, that support system will probably be far more effective if it isn't JUST coming from his 4 parents that so far have not been able to keep his weight from ballooning (not blaming anyone for this, I'm just saying the dynamic between the 4 parents is not currently conducive to working as a team and his health issues have been coming on for years).  His best bet, IMHO, and based on what has been reported here by those who have actually dealt with this, is to involve expert multifaceted support, not just the GP and not just telling him to cut down on calories/go to the gym.  

 

4.  Is surgery necessary?  I don't know.  Frankly, I hope not.  This is a teenager.  I wouldn't want my child facing surgery at his age.  My friend that was morbidly obese made it without surgery but he is not the same person as Scarlet's DSS.  He didn't do it alone, though.  Family support had not been enough.  Not nearly enough.  He needed a specialized medical doctor/personal trainer/dietician and it took years.  He has successfully maintained a healthy weight and eating habits for a long time now but it took a TEAM, a professional team, and a long range commitment.  Does Scarlet's DSS need the same?  Who knows?  He is a different person.  But considering the long term consequences of morbid obesity and the fact that so far what they have tried has not worked, if I were his parent I would be doing SOMETHING besides simply telling him to go to the gym and cut down on calories, regardless of what people think of current scientific/medical thinking.  He is not just overweight.  I realize that it is EASIER to believe that all it will really take is more willpower on his part.  But is it realistic?  Those who have actually dealt with this say "No".  Time is ticking away as his health deteriorates.  I frankly wouldn't want to take that gamble.  

 

Regardless, best wishes to you and your SS Scarlet.  I truly hope with all my heart you find something that works.

Edited December 31, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I think one possible key to understanding and possibly conquering obesity is understanding it as a chronic, lifelong condition.  

 

Again, we need to be talking about weight issues that go beyond the 10lbs baby weight range and look specifically at obesity and beyond that, where metabolic syndrome kicks in and whole body systems become de-regulated.

 

The issue is we see weight as something to be lost... and then we've crossed the finish line!  But it's more like cancer, where a person can be actively ill or be in remission (healthy weight range).  Being in remission as a formerly obese person does not mean that this person is able to go out and live like a always-been-thin person.  There is still de-regulation in many body systems and some of the damage *can be* lifelong.  

 

Practically every bit of advertising out there is aimed at the fix- the loss- and as many have stated here, losing the weight is often times NOT the main problem.  The problem is what comes next.  How do you handle a body which, while outwardly skinny, is still fighting tooth and nail to keep every calorie it can because it is so de-regulated internally?  Socially, people hear, "Why are you still dieting, you've lost the weight!", "Oh it must be nice to be so thin and able to eat what you'd like!"  "It's only a two pound gain, why are you stressing over that?"

 

Always-been-thin people often times simply have more freedom than a chronically-obese-now-thin person will ever have and that has to be really acknowledged.  Research needs to approach how to get body systems functioning again as though the obesity had not happened.  Bringing metabolism back in line with that of an always-thin person.  Bringing hormones back into line.  Bringing gut flora back into line.  Etc, etc.  Lots of mechanisms we probably don't even k now about.  

 

Undoing the weight gain is really the easier part.  Undoing the system damage is a harder problem to solve and definitely less glamorous.  I hope research goes here next.  

[eternalsummer]

A lot of the focus of anti-smoking campaigns has been not to get people to quit (although there is a lot of that, too) but keeping people, especially young people, from starting.

[ktgrok]

I don't have a dog in this discussion, but I think scientists and studies also had a large hand in the current obesity epidemic by promoting a low fat, high carb diet for many, many years. We were told that eating any fat made you fat and unhealthy. So we took the fats out of our foods, replaced the flavor with sugar and salt, ate a bunch of breads and grains and it is turning out that that sort of diet makes a lot of people not just overweight, but really unhealthy.

 

So some people might (rightfully, IMO) not take claims at face value as, oh, NOW we are certain.

 

Well, to be fair, that was more on the government than the scientists. If you look at the actual studies they don't promote what the government food guidelines said they promoted. The studies themselves were correct, it was the government's stupid interpretation of them (by non scientists) that caused the problem. 

 

And for people on a board dedicated to knowledge and education to dismiss science because it doesn't fit with their own anecdotal experience is mind boggling to me, which is what some are doing.

 

"I saw someone eating a cheese cake" is not data. Not to mention, how many times did I do weight watchers and carefully save up all my points all week to splurge while eating out with a friend....did they then see me eating my creme brûlée or whatever and think I just didn't understand how to lose weight? Or that I was lying to myself about what I was eating. Now, maybe that particular person WAS clueless and didn't realize what was going on, and ate too many calories. But that doesn't explain why they ate so many, and even if they were a lazy glutton it would be a data point, not enough information to base anything on. 

 

Scientists are NOT saying they have figured out obesity. They are presenting new pieces to the puzzle, as they find them. that is all. 

[ktgrok]

 

 

 

The issue is we see weight as something to be lost... and then we've crossed the finish line!  But it's more like cancer, where a person can be actively ill or be in remission (healthy weight range).  Being in remission as a formerly obese person does not mean that this person is able to go out and live like a always-been-thin person.  There is still de-regulation in many body systems and some of the damage *can be* lifelong.  

 

 

 

YES!!!!! I'm no longer obese, but I will always battle this. Remission is exactly what it is like, thank you for that!

[ktgrok]

A lot of the focus of anti-smoking campaigns has been not to get people to quit (although there is a lot of that, too) but keeping people, especially young people, from starting.

 

And none of the dire "quit or else" stuff worked really. It was smoking cessation programs, drugs, etc that I think made more of a difference. The people i know that quit (other than my parents who quit cold turkey when my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer) quit using chantix, or gum, or patches, or vaping, etc. 

 

Edited to add: And once they quit they were able to totally avoid smoking, rather than having to have some every day. And avoid places where people smoked. 

Edited December 31, 2017 by ktgrok

[EmseB]

Well, to be fair, that was more on the government than the scientists. If you look at the actual studies they don't promote what the government food guidelines said they promoted. The studies themselves were correct, it was the government's stupid interpretation of them (by non scientists) that caused the problem. 

 

And for people on a board dedicated to knowledge and education to dismiss science because it doesn't fit with their own anecdotal experience is mind boggling to me, which is what some are doing.

 

"I saw someone eating a cheese cake" is not data. Not to mention, how many times did I do weight watchers and carefully save up all my points all week to splurge while eating out with a friend....did they then see me eating my creme brûlée or whatever and think I just didn't understand how to lose weight? Or that I was lying to myself about what I was eating. Now, maybe that particular person WAS clueless and didn't realize what was going on, and ate too many calories. But that doesn't explain why they ate so many, and even if they were a lazy glutton it would be a data point, not enough information to base anything on. 

 

Scientists are NOT saying they have figured out obesity. They are presenting new pieces to the puzzle, as they find them. that is all. 

 

But there is a certain amount of self-interest in presenting a piece of the puzzle that is a 5-figure surgery plan, no?  And not to put too fine a point on it, but what happens if someone gets a surgery and 10 years from now they are watching commercials and realize that there's a class-action suit for their kind of sleeve or mesh or whatever? Being skeptical of an article got Scarlett a lot of derision on this thread, but I think in terms of medical advances it's often good to be skeptical. It's not about dismissing science.  I think most people who were commenting were evaluating the claims and asking questions.

Also, I think that there comes a split when reading articles like the one posted a page or so back and thinking that willpower or self-discipline doesn't matter. There is no solution. Or that no matter how hard one tries, nothing is possible without drugs/surgery/medical intervention. So if you don't have access to that or are scared of surgery or can't do it for whatever reason, then nothing else can be done and you might as well give up. Or as someone upthread put it, we are just bags of chemicals doing what the chemicals tell us to.

[maize]

A lot of the focus of anti-smoking campaigns has been not to get people to quit (although there is a lot of that, too) but keeping people, especially young people, from starting.

And this is so much simpler than preventing the development of obesity, though that is certainly a worthy goal. Directing efforts at preventing teens and young adults from ever trying a cigarette is relatively straightforward. Where do we start with obesity? Needs to start in infancy, take into account individual genetics, epigenetics, family food culture, available food, physical activity...it is so complex! And so much we just don't understand yet.

 

My babies, for instance, tend to be massively chubby. As in, 24lbs at 4 months chubby. Way off the growth charts for weight compared to their peers chubby.

 

They are breast fed on demand, which as far as we know is the best nutritional track for babies.

 

Actually, not all of them are that chubby--two of my seven were quite average weight. Following the exact same feeding style. Presumably individual genetic variation at play, possibly variations in gut biome.

 

Does being chubby as a baby predispose someone to later obesity? We don't actually know--insufficient research has been done to tease out all the variables.

 

My personal truly and exceptionally chubby babies have grown into very normal weight kids.

 

Should someone have been intervening early on with a stop feeding the babies so much campaign?

Edited December 31, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

But there is a certain amount of self-interest in presenting a piece of the puzzle that is a 5-figure surgery plan, no? And not to put too fine a point on it, but what happens if someone gets a surgery and 10 years from now they are watching commercials and realize that there's a class-action suit for their kind of sleeve or mesh or whatever? Being skeptical of an article got Scarlett a lot of derision on this thread, but I think in terms of medical advances it's often good to be skeptical. It's not about dismissing science. I think most people who were commenting were evaluating the claims and asking questions.

Also, I think that there comes a split when reading articles like the one posted a page or so back and thinking that willpower or self-discipline doesn't matter. There is no solution. Or that no matter how hard one tries, nothing is possible without drugs/surgery/medical intervention. So if you don't have access to that or are scared of surgery or can't do it for whatever reason, then nothing else can be done and you might as well give up. Or as someone upthread put it, we are just bags of chemicals doing what the chemicals tell us to.

Yes. This is my view.

[solascriptura]

Yeah. Sigh. This is 90% of why I have a weight problem. But when I have an out of control immune system that has needed 6 or 7 months of antibiotics at a time for numerous years (and if they hadn't worked in the end the doctors didn't know what they would have done), my gut flora is toast. I'm actually losing a bit now when I went from "normal" gluten free to "celiac level" gluten free. And for all of you who think it is a simple calorie in/ calorie out formula, there really isn't any caloric difference between gluten free soy sauce and normal soy sauce. I have actually seriously wondered about getting a fecal transplant (aka a poop pill) from someone who is slender and healthy.

Besides the initial ick factor, I think there is a lot more to this than people want to believe.

 

I’ve been blessed with very good health and a reasonable metabolism. Of course, I can gain weight, but I can easily reign it in when I feel it creeping up. Right now, my entire family has a mild stomach bug. I’m usually able to avoid viruses as I watch and care for my family suffer from ailments. I’ve wondered many times if it has something to do with my gut health.

[ktgrok]

But there is a certain amount of self-interest in presenting a piece of the puzzle that is a 5-figure surgery plan, no?  

 

If this information was coming specifically from weight loss surgeons, sure. But it's not. It's coming from research institutions...in many cases from places that just do research, and have no vested interest how or if any one individual loses weight. 

[ktgrok]

 what happens if someone gets a surgery and 10 years from now they are watching commercials and realize that there's a class-action suit for their kind of sleeve or mesh or whatever? 

 

Well, these surgeries are older than that, so if there were going to be class action lawsuits we'd have them by now. And one should absolutely research long term complications before having any medical treatment or surgery. It's why I chose one particular surgery over another, and why the doctors where I went have stopped doing one kind of surgery almost entirely (you could beg them for it and they'd do it, but don't recommend it) and have changed techniques on another one. 

[OneStepAtATime]

O.k. I think in some ways people may be talking past each other.  There may be more middle ground here than people are hearing.

 

Are some people on here truly saying that ONLY surgery is an option or they should just give up?  'Cause I wasn't reading that at all but I think others may be and I don't think that is what is being said but maybe I am wrong.

 

Are some people on here truly saying that if a child is already morbidly obese, with literally a lifetime of fighting weight/health issues, that the answer is ONLY "suck it up buttercup, you put yourself in this position and the issue is strictly that you need to have more willpower"?  'Cause I am hoping that is also not what is being espoused here.  

 

Does anyone remember the singing group Wilson Philips?  Carnie and Wendy Wilson were born into the same family and had the same biological parents.  They were raised together.  Carnie has fought weight issues since she was a child.  Wendy has not.  Same biological parents raised in the same household, fed the same food, and both are female so no sex difference.  When you see childhood photos Carnie is always quite a bit heavier than Wendy.  Why?  Why has Carnie fought a weight issue since she was a young child and Wendy has not?

 

Hopefully with ongoing scientific studies we will gain more and more parts of the puzzle and can help people to be healthier long term.

[ktgrok]

I definitely don't think surgery is the answer for everyone. I think for me it was the only solution or rather a necessary part of the solution. But even surgery is just one part of a multi pronged approach including gut health, lower carb diet, exercise, mental health and sometimes medication.

 

It's complicated and no one should hate themselves if they haven't found an approach that works yet. And they do.

[kiana]

If this information was coming specifically from weight loss surgeons, sure. But it's not. It's coming from research institutions...in many cases from places that just do research, and have no vested interest how or if any one individual loses weight. 

 

You know, I've watched a fair number of seasons of a weight loss show from the UK (Fat doctor, if anyone cares) and what struck me was:

 

1) The genuine compassion that the doctors seem to have for the patients.

2) The fact that all of them seem to say "Golly, I wish we didn't have to do this, I really hate doing this, but it's the only intervention that has a decent chance of working once someone gets to super-morbidly obese stage". 

 

I watched this show a long time ago but I really felt it gave me a lot of insight into the problems faced by someone who has reached the stage of BMI 50+ (mine was in the obese range but topped out around 35). 

[Scarlett]

I think one possible key to understanding and possibly conquering obesity is understanding it as a chronic, lifelong condition.

 

Again, we need to be talking about weight issues that go beyond the 10lbs baby weight range and look specifically at obesity and beyond that, where metabolic syndrome kicks in and whole body systems become de-regulated.

 

The issue is we see weight as something to be lost... and then we've crossed the finish line! But it's more like cancer, where a person can be actively ill or be in remission (healthy weight range). Being in remission as a formerly obese person does not mean that this person is able to go out and live like a always-been-thin person. There is still de-regulation in many body systems and some of the damage *can be* lifelong.

 

Practically every bit of advertising out there is aimed at the fix- the loss- and as many have stated here, losing the weight is often times NOT the main problem. The problem is what comes next. How do you handle a body which, while outwardly skinny, is still fighting tooth and nail to keep every calorie it can because it is so de-regulated internally? Socially, people hear, "Why are you still dieting, you've lost the weight!", "Oh it must be nice to be so thin and able to eat what you'd like!" "It's only a two pound gain, why are you stressing over that?"

 

Always-been-thin people often times simply have more freedom than a chronically-obese-now-thin person will ever have and that has to be really acknowledged. Research needs to approach how to get body systems functioning again as though the obesity had not happened. Bringing metabolism back in line with that of an always-thin person. Bringing hormones back into line. Bringing gut flora back into line. Etc, etc. Lots of mechanisms we probably don't even k now about.

 

Undoing the weight gain is really the easier part. Undoing the system damage is a harder problem to solve and definitely less glamorous. I hope research goes here next.

That would be good. To get the body's systems back to how they were pre obesity.

[Guest]

O.k. I think in some ways people may be talking past each other. There may be more middle ground here than people are hearing.

 

Are some people on here truly saying that ONLY surgery is an option or they should just give up? 'Cause I wasn't reading that at all but I think others may be and I don't think that is what is being said but maybe I am wrong.

 

Are some people on here truly saying that if a child is already morbidly obese, with literally a lifetime of fighting weight/health issues, that the answer is ONLY "suck it up buttercup, you put yourself in this position and the issue is strictly that you need to have more willpower"? 'Cause I am hoping that is also not what is being espoused here.

 

Does anyone remember the singing group Wilson Philips? Carnie and Wendy Wilson were born into the same family and had the same biological parents. They were raised together. Carnie has fought weight issues since she was a child. Wendy has not. Same biological parents raised in the same household, fed the same food, and both are female so no sex difference. When you see childhood photos Carnie is always quite a bit heavier than Wendy. Why? Why has Carnie fought a weight issue since she was a young child and Wendy has not?

 

Hopefully with ongoing scientific studies we will gain more and more parts of the puzzle and can help people to be healthier long term.

Most of my commentary has been specific to the article posted a few pages ago and the poster who said we are just doing what the chemicals tell us to do.

 

I do think it is interesting to study cases like Carnie and Wendy. I do not, however, think we can definitely assume that two children in the same family are “fed the same food†and in the same manner only because they are siblings. I have an obese sibling, obese since childhood. I am certain there are many complex contributors to why this is so, but one true thing is that we did not eat the same things or in the same way. Being siblings does not necessarily mean two people eat the same things or the same way or get the same amount of exercise. It is not hard for me to believe that there were/are other biological influences at work, such that even if she and I had eaten identical food, it would affect her differently than it affected me. I’m just saying the food has a role as well. There was a point in time when she was a normal size. And then she accelerated in the obese direction. I doubt she could change that now without some type of medical intervention, because she has lived all her adult life in this shape.

[displace]

Does anyone know of good gut health resources? I don’t want to devote a ton of time to it, but maybe just research a bit (like a documentary or ted talk or focused website). I’m focusing on eating fruits and vegetables more than usual atm, but I’m wondering more about it.

[ktgrok]

You know, I've watched a fair number of seasons of a weight loss show from the UK (Fat doctor, if anyone cares) and what struck me was:

 

1) The genuine compassion that the doctors seem to have for the patients.

2) The fact that all of them seem to say "Golly, I wish we didn't have to do this, I really hate doing this, but it's the only intervention that has a decent chance of working once someone gets to super-morbidly obese stage".

 

I watched this show a long time ago but I really felt it gave me a lot of insight into the problems faced by someone who has reached the stage of BMI 50+ (mine was in the obese range but topped out around 35).

Love that show.

[Lady Florida.]

And none of the dire "quit or else" stuff worked really. It was smoking cessation programs, drugs, etc that I think made more of a difference. The people i know that quit (other than my parents who quit cold turkey when my mom was diagnosed with lung cancer) quit using chantix, or gum, or patches, or vaping, etc. 

 

Edited to add: And once they quit they were able to totally avoid smoking, rather than having to have some every day. And avoid places where people smoked. 

 

Exactly. When I was a smoker I got plenty of dirty looks and lectures.It's like your example of someone seeing an obese person eating dessert and making assumptions. Did people really think I didn't know it was bad for me? Did they think I never tried to quit before? For all they knew I was on a cessation program, since some programs had you gradually cut down.

 

I quit when I was trying to get pregnant, while pregnant, and for ds' first few years when he was nursing. I knew I should never have started again but I did. What finally got me to quit for good 14 years ago was a combination of things. I ended up in the hospital for an unknown problem that turned out to be gallbladder issues, and my doctor had given me a 2 week sample of a stop smoking medication that my insurance wouldn't pay for. For about a year after I quit, I found the smell of cigarettes appealing and anytime I walked past a smoking area I had to remind myself that I was a non-smoker now.

 

There are a lot of similarities, but the bolded is where the similarities end. While some former smokers never lose the desire, most of us do. And it's easy enough to avoid situations where people are smoking (even more so now than 15 or 20 years ago). That's not an option with food. One can't avoid eating or being in situations where people eat.

[hornblower]

My personal truly and exceptionally chubby babies have grown into very normal weight kids.

 

Should someone have been intervening early on with a stop feeding the babies so much campaign?

Good point. And there's even more to tease out here than just being chubby as a baby because how you're fed & how you're born matters too. 

 

exclusively breastfed babies have lower rates of obesity. Even chubby breastfed babies. One thing I learned at a conference this summer is that their biomes are completely different than that of a formula fed baby. We've kind of known that but now we have studies & dna analyses of their biomes and we can see how vastly different they are (& it's probably a large chunk of why formula fed neonates are at higher risk of necrotizing enterocolitis) 

 

Also c-sec babies have different biomes than vag birthed babies. There are studies going on right now about trying to colonize c-sec babies with maternal flora & trying to follow these children & their health outcomes long term. We won't know for years of course what effects this has. 

[Kassia]

I was a huge baby/toddler.  So big that my mother had to special order diapers for me.  My mother used to tell me that when I was a newborn I was never satisfied by formula and would just scream for more food.  The doctor told her to start mixing rice cereal in my bottle when I was just three weeks old and that helped.  I was always a big eater and struggled with weight.  Even now I never feel full unless I binge and, even then, I don't feel full until it's too late and I have a stomach ache.  I just watch portion sizes carefully so I don't overeat and chew gum/drink to stop myself from eating more.   

 

Two of my babies were chubby and two were very lean.  All were breastfed.  The chubby ones grew out of it fairly early and they are all very lean now.  DH is an ectomorph - tall and think - and my kids seem to have inherited his metabolism and body type over mine.  I gain fat very easily and have to be super careful with diet and exercise.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

There is an element of "gotcha" to some of these posts that I find disturbing.  Of course people make bad decisions.  I challenge  you to find someone who doesn't.  For many, making bad food decisions is no big deal.  For others it is - and not just for weight reasons.  But most people try to make good decisions if they are able to. 

 

Some need to be explicitly taught things about good eating and cooking that others find self explanatory and common sense.  Not everyone has had good role models in this regard - sometimes even for generations in certain families and regions.  And when bad eating habits are systemic it isn't as simple as going through the fridge and pantry and restocking them.  Yes, that needs to happen but it is also a matter of retraining the taste buds.  A long time ago (like literally 30 years ago) I found going to McDonalds to be a treat.  Then I stopped going for years.  Then I had a craving and went again and found that what I had remembered about the taste was so different than what I was now experiencing.  Now I tasted chemicals in the food because my taste buds had been retrained to like burgers made fresh out of good quality ingredients.  What is it that I heard about how the French train their kids to eat a huge variety of healthy foods?  I believe that the food is introduced seven times before it is part of what is really accepted by the palate.  In the OP's case, I think that there are ways to expand the palate with existing "teen foods" by slowly adding some more vegetables to the pasta or pizza or by remaking favorites in a lower calorie form.  (There are recipes out there that do this.)  This isn't enough for a kid like the OP's stepson but it is still part of the process at some point.  This won't help an obese person lose weight so much as help them to maintain a better weight once they have lost the weight. 

 

Some need medical help with making good decisions.  As has been pointed out in this thread before, if you have hormonal or other chemical problems that are contributing to the desire to eat, then it is difficult to combat with willpower alone.  Do people put down smokers who need the help of smoking cessation aids like they are putting down people who need binge cessation aids?  (To coin a phrase.) 

 

Have any of you watched The Biggest Loser?  That show isn't on any more for a reason.  These people were able to lose the weight with some extreme diet restrictions and in-your-face exercise coaches. But most (I couldn't find the percentage) gained back all the weight and then some.  It wasn't because these went back to bad habits.  It was because of metabolic changes that hadn't been reversed but had been made even worse by the show's approach.  They tried hard to maintain their weight but their body was fighting against them with everything it had.  So be careful if you want to recreate the show's method of shaming and haranguing people into weight loss.  Not only doesn't it work, but it can make the problem worse.  Slower approaches which help to reset the body are better though as many have said, there is a lot out there that is still being discovered. 

 

 

[Kassia]

 

 

Have any of you watched The Biggest Loser?  That show isn't on any more for a reason.  These people were able to lose the weight with some extreme diet restrictions and in-your-face exercise coaches. But most (I couldn't find the percentage) gained back all the weight and then some.  It wasn't because these went back to bad habits.  It was because of metabolic changes that hadn't been reversed but had been made even worse by the show's approach.  They tried hard to maintain their weight but their body was fighting against them with everything it had.  So be careful if you want to recreate the show's method of shaming and haranguing people into weight loss.  Not only doesn't it work, but it can make the problem worse.  Slower approaches which help to reset the body are better though as many have said, there is a lot out there that is still being discovered. 

 

This is a very good point.  Losing weight the wrong way means possibly losing metabolically active muscle tissue and lowering metabolism, which sets people up to gain weight even easier than they did before they dieted.  

[EmseB]

But most (I couldn't find the percentage) gained back all the weight and then some. It wasn't because these went back to bad habits.

That is actually super interesting and something I'd not heard before. So these people continued with the diet and exercise plans they had done on the show and gained all the weight back and more?

 

I don't follow the show, but I am aware of the lack of long-term success, but as I was aware of it (and I'm not even sure where I read this or heard it) it was that once they left the program, the participants gradually stopped excercising and started eating the same way they had prior to going on the show and gained the weight back. So basically I had heard the exact opposite of what you're saying: that without constant discipline and live-in accountability, people ended up going back to their old eating habits.

 

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to restrict one's calories that much and exercise that much and still gain weight as if one hadn't changed any habits at all.

[Jean in Newcastle]

That is actually super interesting and something I'd not heard before. So these people continued with the diet and exercise plans they had done on the show and gained all the weight back and more?

 

I don't follow the show, but I am aware of the lack of long-term success, but as I was aware of it (and I'm not even sure where I read this or heard it) it was that once they left the program, the participants gradually stopped excercising and started eating the same way they had prior to going on the show and gained the weight back. So basically I had heard the exact opposite of what you're saying: that without constant discipline and live-in accountability, people ended up going back to their old eating habits.

 

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to restrict one's calories that much and exercise that much and still gain weight as if one hadn't changed any habits at all.

 

I'm sure that there are different reasons but not all of them fell off the wagon.  (One of the most recent winners was sexually assaulted and this is a reason for her.)  This is one article that references a study that actually tracked Biggest Loser contestants after the show was over.  https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

[unsinkable]

That is actually super interesting and something I'd not heard before. So these people continued with the diet and exercise plans they had done on the show and gained all the weight back and more?

 

I don't follow the show, but I am aware of the lack of long-term success, but as I was aware of it (and I'm not even sure where I read this or heard it) it was that once they left the program, the participants gradually stopped excercising and started eating the same way they had prior to going on the show and gained the weight back. So basically I had heard the exact opposite of what you're saying: that without constant discipline and live-in accountability, people ended up going back to their old eating habits.

 

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to restrict one's calories that much and exercise that much and still gain weight as if one hadn't changed any habits at all.

I had heard the same as you...that the "conditions" on the BL "ranch" were unsustainable in "real life." Especially the exercise...like hours of exercise a day, something like 3 to 6 hours of exercise a day.

[Rosie_0801]

Does anyone know of good gut health resources? I don’t want to devote a ton of time to it, but maybe just research a bit (like a documentary or ted talk or focused website). I’m focusing on eating fruits and vegetables more than usual atm, but I’m wondering more about it.

 

Ferment some of the veggies. It doesn't take any longer to prepare veggies to ferment than it does to cook them. 

[Lady Florida.]

That is actually super interesting and something I'd not heard before. So these people continued with the diet and exercise plans they had done on the show and gained all the weight back and more?

 

I don't follow the show, but I am aware of the lack of long-term success, but as I was aware of it (and I'm not even sure where I read this or heard it) it was that once they left the program, the participants gradually stopped excercising and started eating the same way they had prior to going on the show and gained the weight back. So basically I had heard the exact opposite of what you're saying: that without constant discipline and live-in accountability, people ended up going back to their old eating habits.

 

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to restrict one's calories that much and exercise that much and still gain weight as if one hadn't changed any habits at all.

 

Here's a link to the study that she might be referring to. Their metabolisms slowed down and keeping off the weight became impossible without severely restricting calories (lower than healthy) and extreme exercise - basically the same as they did to lose on the show.

 

Yes, many of them did go back to their former eating habits, but rather than the weight gain being the result of their return to bad habits, the return to bad habits was a result of disappointment and a feeling that their bodies' betrayed them.

 

https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-body/news/biggest-loser-study-examines-why-contestants-gain-back-weight-w204789/

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/02/health/biggest-loser-weight-loss.html

 

 

From the first link:

 

The new research explains why so many people — whether they star on a reality competition or not — struggle and fail to keep off weight they lose, and it all has to do with the body’s resting metabolism, the paper reports. At the beginning of the show, contestants all had a normal metabolism for their sizes, even though some were extremely overweight. By the finale, all their metabolisms had significantly slowed down due to the weight loss from diet and exercise routines, and their bodies were not burning enough calories each day to maintain their thinner frames. This was not a surprise to scientists, because studies have previously found that everyone’s metabolism slows down after a diet. But it was shocking that over the next several years, their metabolisms did not recover and return to the normal rate for a person of their size. Instead, their metabolisms became even slower, which caused the pounds to pack back on.

 

For Cahill, his metabolism slowed so much that to maintain his current weight of 295 pounds he has to eat 800 calories less than a typical man of his size. Although the study was limited by its small size and lack of control group, it showed that the body fights back against itself. “All my friends were drinking beer and not gaining massive amounts of weight,†Cahill, 46, said. “The moment I started drinking beer, there goes another 20 pounds. I said, ‘This is not right. Something is wrong with my body.’â€

 

-and-

 

 

Slow metabolisms were just part of the reason behind the weight gain. The researchers also found that post-show the contestants had low levels of leptin, a key hormone that controls hunger, and that lacking it causes cravings and binges, according to the newspaper. At the start of the show, contestants also had normal leptin levels, but by the end, they had almost none at all. Even after contestants regained weight, their leptin levels were only about half of what they had originally been, according to the Times, which explains their constant urge to eat.