More than 20 dead in Vegas

[JenneinCA]

I found out this morning when my trainer cancelled. His mom lives in Las Vegas and he has not been able to reach her. He was (and to the best of my knowledge) still is very very concerned.

 

It feels like a very small and scary world.

[itsheresomewhere]

His brother is flabbergasted, as you would expect. He said in an interview the family has no clue what his motives may have been and that he didn’t have any obvious political or religious motivations that they know of.

They were saying on the news here, the FBI found nothing in his house. Makes me wonder if he was part of those way out there groups who practice/store/meet in the NV desert. Criminal minds even had an episode on one of those groups. Also, it sounds like he may have had a completely modified gun or homemade one from one expert.

[busymama7]

58 dead. 518 injured. :crying:

 

If I could donate blood, I would, but I'm anemic. I plan to ask my oldest if he would like to donate when he wakes up. Since I can't, do you think they'll accept some cases of orange juice or water for the people donating?

I'm in Vegas too and yes they are accepting food and drinks for those donating

[mathnerd]

 

You can contact your Representatives in Congress or local representatives - email, tweet, FB, phonecall, etc and tell them you support gun reform.

You can write a letter to the editor in your local paper.

You can donate to/support candidates who support gun reform.

 

 

I live in a state (very, very blue colored state) where my views and the positions of my representative in Congress (and the Senators representing my state) are similar on gun control. And most of my local newspapers carry similar-minded editorials as well. So, my views would just be part of the chorus coming from my corner of the country.

[mathnerd]

There's an official GoFundMe for the victims.

https://www.gofundme.com/dr2ks2-las-vegas-victims-fund

 

 

Thank you for the link.

[Guinevere]

I was wondering if there are hotlines to help people who need immediate counseling? I know someone who was there, and is physically okay, but saw some horrific things and is super upset (of course).

[8circles]

I live in a state (very, very blue colored state) where my views and the positions of my representative in Congress (and the Senators representing my state) are similar on gun control. And most of my local newspapers carry similar-minded editorials as well. So, my views would just be part of the chorus coming from my corner of the country.

 

Making the chorus bigger is also doing something.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

A possible scenario is he has a mental illness, possibly undertreated or not treated. Some people lose their support systems as they age, and some may not have insurance.

 

I have no idea, I'm just speculating.

 

Doesn't pretty much anyone who decides to do something like this have a mental illness, diagnosed or not? Mentally well people don't undertake this kind of thing, do they? 

[mathnerd]

Doesn't pretty much anyone who decides to do something like this have a mental illness, diagnosed or not? Mentally well people don't undertake this kind of thing, do they? 

ISIS has claimed credit for this massacre, but they apparently cannot prove the connection with the gunman. So, terrorism is another answer to why the scale of violence occurs.

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-claims-las-vegas-shooting-says-stephen-paddock-converted-islam-675504

[Selkie]

Apparently, the shooter's father was a diagnosed psychopath and was on the FBI's most wanted list in the late 60s-early 70s.

[EMS83]

His brother is flabbergasted, as you would expect. He said in an interview the family has no clue what his motives may have been and that he didn’t have any obvious political or religious motivations that they know of.

 

Poor brother and family.   :grouphug:

[Hannah]

In the one country in the world where mass killings are now so horrifyingly common, why do the majority of the American people still defend gun rights so ardently?

[maize]

In the one country in the world where mass killings are now so horrifyingly common, why do the majority of the American people still defend gun rights so ardently?

I'm not sure it is a majority.

[Guest]

ISIS has claimed credit for this massacre, but they apparently cannot prove the connection with the gunman. So, terrorism is another answer to why the scale of violence occurs.

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-claims-las-vegas-shooting-says-stephen-paddock-converted-islam-675504

You misunderstand. All terrorists have something very wrong with them.

 

This is a point I am forever trying to make: why do people believe the false dichotomy that one can not be mentally unstable and a terrorist at the same time, when the very act of reigning down terror requires mental instability?

 

(Hint. Bigotry writ large into our cultural stories)

[Liz CA]

Is anyone else surprised that the dude was 64?  I thought folks were supposed to have far more sense by that age.  Something seems odd.  I guess that will come out later.

 

 

I'm wondering what his motive was, other than yay for get to slaughter innocent people. Disgusting and tragic.

 

 

In one report there was speculation that he had lost a bundle gambling. How shooting others would solve this dilemma, I don't know.

[Guest]

They don't need a "reason."

 

They simply feel entitled enough to do it.

 

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184X14523432

 

**Note: needing a reason and giving an excuse are different things

Edited October 2, 2017 by OKBud

[Hannah]

I'm not sure it is a majority.

 

Honest question.  If not the majority, why is there no reform?  

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

[EmseB]

Honest question.  If not the majority, why is there no reform?  

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

 

The Bill of Rights would have to be amended. That is not easy to do, by design.

 

Also, I doubt the majority are for banning guns entirely in this country.

 

But there are a lot of things that can be done to stop murders/attacks that we don't do because it infringes on other people's rights.

Edited October 2, 2017 by EmseB

[displace]

Doesn't pretty much anyone who decides to do something like this have a mental illness, diagnosed or not? Mentally well people don't undertake this kind of thing, do they?

I think some can be raised to use violence to solve problems, or be exposed to it when young. It can be "normalized ". I understand terrorists teach about other groups being evil, therefore killing an evil person would be good?

 

Idk, just speculating again.

[Guest]

Honest question. If not the majority, why is there no reform?

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

America is huge and most non-homogeneous. Overhauling constitutional issues *that require citizen participation* like selling back guns is a tremendous, near-futile exercise.

 

Plus, when you have the biggest baddest (best?) Military and an increasingly militarized public police force, along with a right to armed militias that is constitutionally enshrined, disarming the populace en masse is a bad look. Most people would (rightly, imo) be wary of such a move by such a state.

[Guest]

I think some can be raised to use violence to solve problems, or be exposed to it when young. It can be "normalized ". I understand terrorists teach about other groups being evil, therefore killing an evil person would be good?

 

Idk, just speculating again.

Terrorists are definitely trying to use violence to solve problems.

[Pawz4me]

Honest question.  If not the majority, why is there no reform?  

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

 

Because the NRA and gun manufacturers have lots of money to hire lobbyists and to throw at politicians at state and national levels.

 

Probably some/a lot of it is due to gerrymandering, which allows candidates who aren't supported by a true majority to be elected (that's a horrible problem that's got to be solved or there is no hope of our country getting back to being more unified).

 

I'm sure there are lots more reasons, those are just the first two that pop in my mind.

[displace]

Honest question. If not the majority, why is there no reform?

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

The NRA pays/lobbies the politicians to keep laws gun friendly.

 

I think our country has so many issues to address that we're stuck on solving anything productivity. And we're "distracted" by a new issue frequently.

Edited October 2, 2017 by displace

[Guest]

Oh I think/know that a lot if gun owners feel about the nra like a lot of homeschoolers feel about hlda: they're way over the top and they don't speak for us. But the government still would be wrong to take away this particular freedom I have, that they lobby for.

[EmseB]

If anyone wants a simple, factual, rundown on the laws regarding fully automatic weapons (aka "machine guns") laws in the US, this is a good twitter thread from a shooting instructor. You might disagree with his stance on gun control, but he knows what current laws are. It's helpful to have these facts, I think, before making pronouncements on what should or should not be done.  In short machine guns are practically impossible to obtain legally these days without tens of thousands of dollars and months if not years of red tape.  They are essentially legally unobtainable by the average person.

 

Also, I apologize for commenting on gun control laws so fresh from the tragedy. For some reason I always hope that people could just be united in grief for the victims or anger at the perpetrator. There was just so much speculation and mistaken notions floating around I felt that it warranted a comment.

Edited October 3, 2017 by EmseB

[Sneezyone]

If anyone wants a simple, factual, rundown on the laws regarding fully automatic weapons (aka "machine guns") laws in the US, this is a good twitter thread from a shooting instructor. You might disagree with his stance on gun control, but he knows what current laws are. It's helpful to have these facts, I think, before making pronouncements on what should or should not be done.  In short machine guns are practically possible to obtain legally these days without tens of thousands of dollars and months if not years of red tape.  They are essentially legally unobtainable by the average person.

 

Also, I apologize for commenting on gun control laws so fresh from the tragedy. For some reason I always hope that people could just be united in grief for the victims or anger at the perpetrator. There was just so much speculation and mistaken notions floating around I felt that it warranted a comment.

 

Sadly, uniting in grief doesn't prevent the next attack. Facts are always useful in that endeavour.

[goldberry]

ISIS has claimed credit for this massacre, but they apparently cannot prove the connection with the gunman. So, terrorism is another answer to why the scale of violence occurs.

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-claims-las-vegas-shooting-says-stephen-paddock-converted-islam-675504

 

Interesting.  I wonder if they are going to just start claiming responsibility for everything.  Surely there will be some kind of trail if this has any truth to it.  

[Barb_]

Public polling seems to suggest the public is largely in agreement about reasonable gun control to reduce homicides:

 

https://morningconsultintelligence.com/public/mc/160609_topline_NYT_v2_AP.pdf

 

 

Experts and public largely agree on gun control, politicians don't:

Article here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/10/02/experts-and-the-public-agree-on-how-to-stop-gun-violence-politicians-dont/?utm_term=.7cd973de6b69

[EmseB]

Can a fresh thread be started about this in the politics group so this one doesn't get poofed or locked?

[Guest]

As a Hive member said after Sandyhook, if a room full of dead kindergarteners doesn't spark change, literallly nothing will.

[Roadrunner]

ISIS has claimed credit for this massacre, but they apparently cannot prove the connection with the gunman. So, terrorism is another answer to why the scale of violence occurs.

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-claims-las-vegas-shooting-says-stephen-paddock-converted-islam-675504

So every sociopath who decides to wrack havoc and needs a cause is now going to convert it Islam and do it that way? Islamization of radicalism.

[EmseB]

Sadly, uniting in grief doesn't prevent the next attack. Facts are always useful in that endeavour.

 

Right, which is why I posted.  I guess I was thinking that some people might want a space free to grieve or be sad, focusing on these victims and this attack. I felt conflicted about posting "just the facts", which might seem cold or calculated in the face of such a hard time for so many people.

 

I have friends in Vegas and used to go there for work quite often.  The crowds always made me nervous that something like this could easily happen.  I can't imagine the terror.

[Guest]

Can a fresh thread be started about this in the politics group so this one doesn't get poofed or locked?

If you want to start a thread, go 'head. Not everyone is in those groups, and no one is breaking rules here afaik.

[Guest]

As a Hive member said after Sandyhook, if a room full of dead kindergarteners doesn't spark change, literallly nothing will.

Oh, God :(

[EmseB]

If you want to start a thread, go 'head. Not everyone is in those groups, and no one is breaking rules here afaik.

 

It just seemed to be migrating to gun control and political climate surrounding that rather than Vegas.

 

I am never entirely sure what's going to get a thread locked or comments deleted, though, because they are generally pretty fluid. So I probably know not of what I speak. And I don't want to net nanny, so just nevermind me.

Edited October 2, 2017 by EmseB

[displace]

I had to stop listening to the news, with them discussing the ease of turning weapons into automatic weapons, and the totally insane gun paper registration warehouse.

 

I don't think I can learn more at the moment. :(

[Guest]

It just seemed to be migrating to gun control and political climate surrounding that rather than Vegas.

 

I am never entirely sure what's going to get a thread locked or comments deleted, though, because they are generally pretty fluid. So I probably know not of what I speak. And I don't want to net nanny, so just nevermind me.

I hear ya.

[Barb_]

It just seemed to be migrating to gun control and political climate surrounding that rather than Vegas.

 

I am never entirely sure what's going to get a thread locked or comments deleted, though, because they are generally pretty fluid. So I probably know not of what I speak. And I don't want to net nanny, so just nevermind me.

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to lock the thread, but you're right. I'm never sure what is going to get a thread locked either. All I know is, these are conversations we need to be having. I'm heartsick and furious--I'm beyond furious and it's getting to the point that I dread waking up each day. We all deserve better.

[Guest]

Honest question. If not the majority, why is there no reform?

I feel as if I'm missing something obvious.

 

The right to own a gun is in our constitution; it cannot be reformed out of existance. The colonists and the Founding Fathers, for lack of a better term, believed that an armed population was a deterrent to governmental tyranny.

[Barb_]

The right to own a gun is in our constitution; it cannot be reformed out of existance. The colonists and the Founding Fathers, for lack of a better term, believed that an armed population was a deterrent to governmental tyranny.

No one is suggesting we legislate gun ownership out of existence.

 

ETA: I was mightily tempted to respond in a way that would likely get the thread locked. But I didn't.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Barb_

[Sneezyone]

The right to own a gun is in our constitution; it cannot be reformed out of existance. The colonists and the Founding Fathers, for lack of a better term, believed that an armed population was a deterrent to governmental tyranny.

 

Also, FTR, it can be reformed out of existence. The Constitution provides us the means to reform the document. There may be little appetite for that but it is, indeed, possible.

[mathnerd]

In the one country in the world where mass killings are now so horrifyingly common, why do the majority of the American people still defend gun rights so ardently?

Politics is complicated. I cannot say more because I want to respect the forum rules.

 

Posting a link to an NPR news article should be OK, I think.

http://www.npr.org/2017/10/02/555099794/a-familiar-partisan-response-in-congress-to-las-vegas-massacre

[goldberry]

There were several students from ds's high school and one was injured. :(

 

How scary, I'm so glad they are okay...

[Mergath]

The right to own a gun is in our constitution; it cannot be reformed out of existance. The colonists and the Founding Fathers, for lack of a better term, believed that an armed population was a deterrent to governmental tyranny.

Like I saw on FB today, they had guns that held ONE BULLET. If they'd foreseen the kinds of weapons we have today, they might have rethought the second amendment.

[goldberry]

And to add to the mess....  I know this stuff gets done automatically by algorithm but I thought they were supposed to be trying to stop this crap?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/oct/02/las-vegas-shooting-facebook-google-fake-news-shooter

 

Edited October 2, 2017 by emzhengjiu
political

[Barb_]

Like I saw on FB today, they had guns that held ONE BULLET. If they'd foreseen the kinds of weapons we have today, they might have rethought the second amendment.

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that a single individual managed to injure or kill close to 600 people without a bomb. In fact, just for perspective I looked it up and this shooting affected more people than any bombing on US soil save for OK city and it was close to that bad; https://www.google.com/amp/s/townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/04/16/the-10-worst-bombings-in-us-history-n1568828%3Famp=true

Edited October 2, 2017 by Barb_

[Guest]

Our constitution can be changed, or amended, via a constitutional ammendment, that it true. Without a federal ammendment, though, state and federal legislation can only go so far in denying access to and the purchase of firearms before it comes up against the constitutional right which the courts are obligated to protect.

 

This explanation, as well as my previous one, is for the benefit of the non-Americans on this board, who may not understand why guns are still available here.

Edited October 2, 2017 by Fifiruth

[Barb_]

There are a lot of hotel rooms and balconies with views. All he needed was time and ammo.

 

.

Yeah, that is the point, I think :(

[Seasider]

Is anyone else surprised that the dude was 64? I thought folks were supposed to have far more sense by that age. Something seems odd. I guess that will come out later.

And apparently very rich, also odd. I'm wondering if a search of his belongings will turn up a manifesto of some sort.

 

What an incredible tragedy.

[Guest]

I spoke to my friend whose dd was at the concert. I am so glad that she and her friends were not physically harmed, but at the same time, I cannot imagine the psychological stress those girls have just been through. And I can hardly imagine the stress of being the mother, here on the east coast, with her dd having just been through this way out west.