How do I talk to my DH about household/life work

[lauraw4321]

We could never all relax/work at the same time.  Our jobs are too different.  And maybe even more, we'd both hate being obligated to work on someone else's timeline.

 

Yeah, the more I think about this, the more I realize it's not likely to fly. I fall asleep with the littlest pretty frequently. He hates being asked to do anything after 9:00 p.m. I get up early. Sometimes he works late. Schedules are just too different, I think.

[73349]

Since your kids are getting older as well, it might be a good time to sit down as a group and work on A List for Everything (family meeting over dessert?). You might put the lists on a bulletin board or in a binder for reference, though the commonly used ones will soon be memorized.

 

For example, my DS is also in a camp this week. I'm the one loading the backpack, but I'm working from a list, and if I needed to be doing something else, DH and DS could work from the same list. It's on a clipboard by the backpack. I made the list so *I* don't forget the bug spray (or whatever), but having a list means anybody could take over.

Next year, DS will help compose the list (informed by info from the camp) and do his own packing. But I think it would be unfair to delegate getting him ready to DH with no list and then have DS be the one to get bug bites/sunburn/dehydrated/hungry because DH didn't realize it was necessary to do bug spray/sunscreen/water bottle/food.

 

List-making is a skill. Checking back with the list is a skill. If you work only from your mental list, I don't think anybody else is going to develop these skills.

[lauraw4321]

Since your kids are getting older as well, it might be a good time to sit down as a group and work on A List for Everything (family meeting over dessert?). You might put the lists on a bulletin board or in a binder for reference, though the commonly used ones will soon be memorized.

 

For example, my DS is also in a camp this week. I'm the one loading the backpack, but I'm working from a list, and if I needed to be doing something else, DH and DS could work from the same list. It's on a clipboard by the backpack. I made the list so *I* don't forget the bug spray (or whatever), but having a list means anybody could take over.

Next year, DS will help compose the list (informed by info from the camp) and do his own packing. But I think it would be unfair to delegate getting him ready to DH with no list and then have DS be the one to get bug bites/sunburn/dehydrated/hungry because DH didn't realize it was necessary to do bug spray/sunscreen/water bottle/food.

 

List-making is a skill. Checking back with the list is a skill. If you work only from your mental list, I don't think anybody else is going to develop these skills.

 

Yes. It makes me tired because it feels like just another thing for me to do. But yes, I hear you.

[QueenCat]

I think that an adult "delegating" to another adult that is equal to them (not their employee) might cause conflict in the long run. Find a way to have a family meeting where the adults can decide together "who does what" and "when, if it isn't the same person daily". And THEN delegate to the children the things that are capable of doing themselves. Even the 8 year old with executive functioning issues can help if given a concrete list.

[Zinnia]

We could never all relax/work at the same time.  Our jobs are too different.  And maybe even more, we'd both hate being obligated to work on someone else's timeline.

 

You are a better person than me.  It makes me stabby to be cleaning the kitchen and still have 12 things left to do for the evening, while dh is watching tv, "supervising" tooth brushing/bedtime by yelling down the hall.  

 

Stabby.   :cursing:

[Clear Creek]

I am married to someone who does this. He expects me to read his mind and know everything that needs to be done, and it never turns out well. I much prefer it if he spells out exactly what needs to be done in a situation instead of expecting me to understand what he means by "get such-and-such ready for this or that." For example, if he asks me to oversee the kids tidying up the deck, he needs to lay out for me exactly what tasks to include to meet his definition of tidy...because what I see that needs done and what he sees that needs done are not the same thing. And I am not dumb, we just have different definitions of the word. His definition might include not leaving the hose stretched across the yard and killing the weeds growing in the cracks, whereas my definition might include cleaning the surface of the patio table and putting pool toys in their bin. We could both "clean" the deck and have vastly different results simply because we see different things that need to be done.

 

Liberal use of post-it notes might help. Put a note on the coffee maker that he will see that asks him to please put in a (specific) load of laundry and unload the dishwasher. Put a note on the sunscreen asking him to put it on the kids once they are dressed and are wearing socks and shoes. Put a note on their backpacks asking to put specific shoes in it before they take it out of the house.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wonder if it would be helpful to pick a couple of tasks that need to be done regularly and just ask him to take it over.  Say it'll become his thing to worry about.  Like dinner and food shopping.  Something like that.  And don't say anything.  Just let him figure it out.  And have it be some things that truly are time consuming that would lighten your load. 

 

 

[carriede]

Anyway, the point is that the only way he really understands all the logistics involved is that he had/has to figure it out himself.

This. I'm a SAHM. Shortly after our 4th was born DH wanted to go on a camping trip with his family, but I wasn't up for that yet, post partum wise. He really wanted to go and so he took the "older" kids himself. They were 6, 4, and 2 at the time.

 

DH has always valued my work as a SAHM, but I don't think he realized how taxing it is to manage 4 individual people simultaneously. Ever since that trip, he makes it a point to ask me how he can help around the house. He doesn't always know what needs to be done, but even just him volunteering makes all the difference.

 

OP, I get the feeling that the problem is only partly about housework and mostly about communication and a difference of standards. I don't mean to be blunt, but the way you talk with your DH about these issues is to TALK to him.

 

I would suggest setting up a special time to talk. Maybe after the kids are in bed or as part of dinner or coffee out of the house. Your feelings of unhappiness and stress are valid, and the two of you TOGETHER should devise a workable solution.

 

Sending lots of hugs and a prayer your way.

[ktgrok]

I get it. My DH is usually awesome, but there are some things....like I shouldn't have to tell him that the kids need to eat lunch and dinner. But I do. The other day he fed them ice cream at 6:30. Totally didn't understand that gee, that's dinner time. Then at 8pm was asking what we were doing for dinner. I was like, well...seems you gave them ice cream for dinner, that's what!

 

Edited to add: they get ready for BED at 8pm!

Edited June 27, 2017 by ktgrok

[wendyroo]

I wonder if it would be helpful to pick a couple of tasks that need to be done regularly and just ask him to take it over.  Say it'll become his thing to worry about.  Like dinner and food shopping.  Something like that.  And don't say anything.  Just let him figure it out.  And have it be some things that truly are time consuming that would lighten your load. 

 

 

We did this just recently.  With the homeschooling burden increasing now that we have two school-age kids, my plate was overflowing and DH simply had to take over the mental and time load of a couple tasks.

 

One he took over was bills and finance.  We chose what week would be convenient to transfer ownership of the job, and we spent an entire nap time going over the current state of things.  I walked him through my system in detail.  I answered all his questions about how I have been doing things and why.  In no way do I expect that he will continue with my exact set-up, but it was important to share all the relevant information so that he can come up with his own functional way of doing things.

 

Another task he took over was my son's psychiatric care.  The psychiatrist offers appointments at 6:45am, so DH can make the appointments, take DS to them before work, and be in charge of managing all his medications.  About a week before each appointment (his Google Calendar reminds him), DH emails me to find out if there is anything I want to convey to or ask the doctor.  A couple days before the appointment, I email DH back a list of my questions and concerns, and a general statement as to how I think DS is doing.

 

It takes a lot of coordination and communication to juggle all the family tasks, but when we get it right, it truly does decrease our stress and increase our ability to relax.

 

Wendy

[lauraw4321]

I just texted him and asked him to pick out and get DD's birthday present (her birthday is Friday). I told him I'll do cake, card, balloons. We'll see.  I'm trying! I'm going to add that he needs to have it wrapped in some manner.  :-)

[HomeAgain]

Oh, sweetie!  I'm going to echo that lists and "teach a man to fish" are your friends.  We have basic lists for the kids on routine items.  My oldest had three cardstock tags at one point for his scout bag.  The first was for weekend trip, the second - an extension for summer camp, the third- an extension for winter camp.  It was his responsibility to ensure that each item went in and that he was taking responsibility for it.  It extends right down to the little one, too.  When he was 6 we went for a 10 day vacation.  I handed him a list and he laid it all on his bed, which made the rest of my packing so much easier!  Write down what your kids need.  Type it on your phone.  Expect them to stuff their own bag and if they forget/refuse, then it's their loss.

 

You have to convey things you know in writing to the rest of the team.  You can't manage it all, and shouldn't. Impart little words of wisdom when someone takes over your routine.  Like, getting the kids ready.  Just say "oh, they're going to be outside.  They need sunscreen and bug spray when you get them ready."  Or, "I usually empty the dishwasher while I make breakfast.  It saves time for me later."  Nobody's a mind reader.  Goodness knows if the shoe was on the other foot and I was getting the hang of things I'd like the tips or helps.

[HomeAgain]

I just texted him and asked him to pick out and get DD's birthday present (her birthday is Friday). I told him I'll do cake, card, balloons. We'll see.  I'm trying! I'm going to add that he needs to have it wrapped in some manner.  :-)

 

Ask him what paper he's picked out.  :)  It assumes he's going to without directly telling him.

 

[Bluegoat]

You are a better person than me.  It makes me stabby to be cleaning the kitchen and still have 12 things left to do for the evening, while dh is watching tv, "supervising" tooth brushing/bedtime by yelling down the hall.  

 

Stabby.   :cursing:

 

Ah, but you have to turn it around.

 

I used to feel guilty when I sat down to read or rest or whatever, and my dh started doing the laundry or cleaning up the kitchen or something.  Then I felt resentful that I had to pitch in when I wanted a rest.  Or, if it was something I usually do, I would feel like he was telling me to get on with it, so I'd tell him to leave it I'd get it later, and then he felt like I was mad that he tried to help out.

 

I realized at a certain point that it had to be ok for one person to be working while the other was not, or I was obligated to do housework if dh was, say, mowing the lawn.  Even I'd done my work when he was out doing something else.

 

Occasionally it can be annoying in situations like you describe.  If I am the annoyed one, I let it go unless it is serious - he can deal with whatever they get up to brushing and get them to bed.  So far they have never died in his care.  If I know they will poison themselves, then I say something. 

[lauraw4321]

Ok, he said he would.

 

Would you nag/remind about this? Even with the possibility that DD will not have a birthday present if DH forgets?

[QueenCat]

Ok, he said he would.

 

Would you nag/remind about this? Even with the possibility that DD will not have a birthday present if DH forgets?

 

NO. The worse thing that happens is you put money in an envelope and your dd never knows that there was supposed to be something else. And then you have your dh take her shopping as if that were the plan all along.

[eternalsummer]

I would not know that a request for picking out and buying a present also implied wrapping said present.

 

Re: working at the same time; when DH worked outside the home and I was home with the kids (just 2-3 of them then), I did not work all 8 hours he was working.  2 or 3 little kids just don't take solid, constant work the way a job requires solid, constant work.  I sometimes sat; I sometimes read the news online; I sometimes read a book; I sometimes drank a cup of tea and listened to the radio; I sometimes sewed (my hobby at the time).  I certainly did not put in 8 hours of work while he was working.

 

So when he got home, I was still working (dinner, cleaning, bed, etc.) because that was part of my job - my job was to work in little bits all day long, while his was to work hard for a long chunk of time and then get a few hours completely off.

[marbel]

Ah, but you have to turn it around.

 

I used to feel guilty when I sat down to read or rest or whatever, and my dh started doing the laundry or cleaning up the kitchen or something.  Then I felt resentful that I had to pitch in when I wanted a rest.  Or, if it was something I usually do, I would feel like he was telling me to get on with it, so I'd tell him to leave it I'd get it later, and then he felt like I was mad that he tried to help out.

 

I realized at a certain point that it had to be ok for one person to be working while the other was not, or I was obligated to do housework if dh was, say, mowing the lawn.  Even I'd done my work when he was out doing something else.

 

Occasionally it can be annoying in situations like you describe.  If I am the annoyed one, I let it go unless it is serious - he can deal with whatever they get up to brushing and get them to bed.  So far they have never died in his care.  If I know they will poison themselves, then I say something. 

 

Wow, exactly this happens in my house.  I hate it when I want to sit down for a few minutes and my husband starts doing dishes.  Sometimes I'm waiting for the kids to finish something so they can do it.  Or, I want to read a bit before I get at it.  In our personal division of labor, the kitchen is mine.  Of course he is ready to do things if I'm away or sick or otherwise can't do it. But on a normal day, he should leave the dishes alone; he has his own things to do.  The other thing is, I can do it all faster because I've just had more practice. But he will get a bit offended if I tell him to step away from the dishwasher.

 

I don't get "no one can relax till everyone's work is done."   Are there people who get all the needed work done at a certain point?  There is always something more to do.  Maybe I would understand it more if I worked outside the house full time. But even then I can't imagine it's perfectly equal.  My husband sometimes has long lunches with colleagues that are more social than work.  Or sometimes he goes and swims.  Sometimes I'd be going full tilt all day at home, and it's rare that I have any lunch, let alone a leisurely one with friends.  Sometimes I get up much earlier than he does and get 6 tasks done before he's even out of bed.  Or sometimes he gets up way earlier than I do and goes in to work while I lounge in bed and read a book. I figure most of the time it evens out.

 

Obviously that's not the case for the OP though, and I get her frustration. 

[Zinnia]

You guys are right about the work balance. I was only seeing it through my lens. I still have small enough/impulsive enough children that they need to be supervised at all times. So, in our house, one person "relaxing" during kid awake hours means the other person is doing the chores plus parenting duty. At the end of the day, I am usually tired of constant parenting, and I want a break. I am ready to hand it off, and that's what I was thinking about....Not that no one gets to sit down, ever. It's just that if I sit down and read during the day, I still have one eye out for the kids. I like to trade off that duty if at all possible.

Edited June 27, 2017 by Zinnia

[Carol in Cal.]

Apparently in my husband's family, the wife did all the housework by herself.

But when the husband went outside to do yardwork, she would go out to help.

And then he would go hunting or fishing by himself.  

 

Um.

 

Not so much here.

[Paige]

I think setting up a chore/expectation plan and then letting him handle his part is a great idea. I'd approach it as a "I'm exhausted and need help" rather than "you aren't doing enough."

 

But the thing is, you have to let him do it his way and let go of the idea that things should be done your way. I wouldn't unload the dishes in the morning either. I do it at night. Or, maybe, you have to be ok with the breakfast dishes sitting all day and not getting done until the evening with the evening dishes if DH gets the breakfast dishes job. If he forgets sunscreen, your kids can remind him or not. The 8 and 6yr olds are old enough to know what to expect. You could even give them a chart of what to do before school and they can be in charge of making sure it happens which could include asking Dad to put it on.

[Carol in Cal.]

See, I just hate asking DH to do things.

I feel like that makes me out to be his boss or mother rather than partner or wife.

I want him to commit to doing things and then do them without talking about it.

Ha.

[Julie Smith]

Another thought:

I found it very helpful to always had a clear division of labor. All child related stuff was mine to oversee. That did not mean that DH would not help, just that *I* was the person who knew who had to be where at what time with what supplies for what purpose. Which curriculum  to use for homeschooling, when to get doctor and dental checkups. Mine are also all food related tasks; I know what to buy where, what to cook - he is happy to assist when given clear instructions ("buy apples, cream cheese and coffee", not: "go to the grocery store and shop").

 

In turn, DH is responsible for finances, car maintenance, house maintenance, travel. I will help there when specifically instructed, but he is the one who knows and decides what needs to be done when and how.

 

Just like you, I find it is best to divide jobs. Clear cut divisions. For example the laundry part of dirty clothes on the floor to clean clothes in the guest room to put away is totally the kids responsibility. I don't think about it at all. I haven't started a load of laundry for at least a year and a half. I don't know if we have soap. I don't know what conidition the clothes drying racks are in. I don't think about it at all.

 

As much as possibly hand off jobs that can be totally handed off.

 

I have also recently handed off the job of bathroom cleaning. With the exception of my hair washing products I no longer expend any mental or physical energy on the bathroom - unless specifically asked to do so.

[kbutton]

Ok, he said he would.

 

Would you nag/remind about this? Even with the possibility that DD will not have a birthday present if DH forgets?

 

It depends on the fallout if he doesn't do it. How your daughter will feel, how he will feel, etc. Even whether failure will motivate or bring on a feeling of hopelessness or make him less likely to try again.

 

In some families, it's very difficult to contain damage from a sink or swim approach, and the person being asked to sink or swim really can't quite swim yet. It's a different dynamic.

 

Some people use life-coach types of people to keep the less intuitive spouse on task. They are basically paid to do the nagging while also trying to help build some skills or whatever is needed over time. 

[lllll]

Ok, he said he would.

 

Would you nag/remind about this? Even with the possibility that DD will not have a birthday present if DH forgets?

 

I'm not one who could watch my dc bear the brunt of my dh's ... ummm .... 'behavior'.  I'd have to step in or figure out a way to avoid some of that.  And I don't mean shielding dc from the reality of my dh.  Or pretending he's something he's not.  Just that I had a line where my dc were concerned, and when dh got too close to that line, I stepped in and took control of the situation.  Kind of hard to explain ...

 

I don't know if this will help or not, but I'll throw it out there.  We hs'ed, and at one point all 5 kids were wanting to practice on our one piano.  There was squabbling, etc.  Then, in a rare moment of clarity, I blurted out "Y'all sit down and make a schedule for the piano."  They were a little confused at first, but I explained that they needed to think of the piano as a separate entity which needed a schedule - NOT of themselves individually - but think of the piano FIRST, and THEN go off and make up their own schedules AROUND the piano's schedule.  Lo and behold, their attitudes changed and they sat down and hammered out a 'schedule for the piano' and posted it on the piano itself.  And I never heard another argument about practice times.  

 

All to say that instead of fighting each other over the chores, maybe it would be better to view it as 'making a schedule for ______'.  Take it one thing at a time, or all at once, whichever works best for BOTH of you.  At a time when you're both calm and there are no distractions and both of you are well-rested and have plenty of time.  And come up with something - anything - just to get started.  Then, set a date to meet again, same scenario, to tweak, and to hash out even more details of other things.  And just keep doing this regularly.  At some point, your kids will be folded into the process, and that will be SOOO much easier if you and your dh have already ironed out a lot of the kinks.

 

But the key is to think of the running of the house as an entity separate from you and from your dh.  It's a 'thing' that needs ___  (a schedule, a what??).  And it's up to you and dh to come together and make that  _____ to keep that ship from sinking.  

 

(I know.  Clear as mud.  But hth anyway.)

 

:grouphug:  

Edited June 28, 2017 by tentwelve

[Zinnia]

 

However, there is a strong cultural assumption that it's the female spouse's job to take on the work of making any division of labor fairer. Those assumptions abound in this thread.

I think that a 13 year habit....that totally works for the other person....is difficult to break. And that's why the work of changing the habit falls on the person who is most upset with the status quo.

 

I would totally expect my dh to buy in and buy in quickly on "things are about to change in here," but I can't imagine him initiating the change away from something that he doesn't see as broken.

[regentrude]

Asking women to do the mental work for their spouse - or even asking the kids to do it! - is ridiculous.

Women don't have some genetic sex-linked ability to work out kids need sunscreen before they go out for the day in summer. That is commonsense, just as it is commonsense that children going out for the day need their backpacks or that when dinner is done, someone needs to deal with cleaning up the kitchen and doing the dishes. 

 

A father doesn't need training and scaffolding to work this out. They just need to get on with the job. 

 

No, I don't think so. Of course the father can handle the task - but then he needs to be left in peace to handle the entire task HIS way. The father can be in charge of figuring out how to get the kids on the bus. He will not forget the shoes when he is in charge of the entire operation. But vague tasks like "getting ready" - not clear what that entails.Packing the backpack when he has not been given the information that kid x needs y? Not possible, since he is not a mind reader.

 

 

(And yes, the same with supposedly male jobs. I don't need training and scaffolding to take over bin night from my ds.Adults can figure out this stuff.)

 

Again, possible if woman is in charge of the entire job. I would be perfectly capable of handling automotive maintenance or finances - BUT if the division of labor is such that it is normally my spouse's responsibility, I need the information what has been done/needs to be done so we don't double each other's work, which would be inefficient.

 

Just like it would be inefficient for my DH to know exactly on what page we are on the math book at any given moment when I am the teacher - if i want him to take over, I need to show him where to pick up or tell him what difficulties the student has, since that has been my area of responsibilty. It makes no sense for two people to repeat each other's work.

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[lauraw4321]

No, I don't think so. Of course the father can handle the task - but then he needs to be left in peace to handle the entire task HIS way. The father can be in charge of figuring out how to get the kids on the bus. He will not forget the shoes when he is in charge of the entire operation. But vague tasks like "getting ready" - not clear what that entails.Packing the backpack when he has not been given the information that kid x needs y? Not possible, since he is not a mind reader.

 

 

 

Again, possible if woman is in charge of the entire job. I would be perfectly capable of handling automotive maintenance or finances - BUT if the division of labor is such that it is my spouses domain, I need the information what has been done/needs to be done so we don't double each other's work, whcih would be inefficient.

Again, I wasn't upset about the backpacks. I didn't expect him to do that. And he should have known about bug spray andvsunscreen because he did it yesterday and we discussed it.

[lauraw4321]

I'm not one who could watch my dc bear the brunt of my dh's ... ummm .... 'behavior'. I'd have to step in or figure out a way to avoid some of that. And I don't mean shielding dc from the reality of my dh. Or pretending he's something he's not. Just that I had a line where my dc were concerned, and when dh got too close to that line, I stepped in and took control of the situation. Kind of hard to explain ...

 

I don't know if this will help or not, but I'll throw it out there. We hs'ed, and at one point all 5 kids were wanting to practice on our one piano. There was squabbling, etc. Then, in a rare moment of clarity, I blurted out "Y'all sit down and make a schedule for the piano." They were a little confused at first, but I explained that they needed to think of the piano as a separate entity which needed a schedule - NOT of themselves individually - but think of the piano FIRST, and THEN go off and make up their own schedules AROUND the piano's schedule. Lo and behold, their attitudes changed and they sat down and hammered out a 'schedule for the piano' and posted it on the piano itself. And I never heard another argument about practice times.

 

All to say that instead of fighting each other over the chores, maybe it would be better to view it as 'making a schedule for ______'. Take it one thing at a time, or all at once, whichever works best for BOTH of you. At a time when you're both calm and there are no distractions and both of you are well-rested and have plenty of time. And come up with something - anything - just to get started. Then, set a date to meet again, same scenario, to tweak, and to hash out even more details of other things. And just keep doing this regularly. At some point, your kids will be folded into the process, and that will be SOOO much easier if you and your dh have already ironed out a lot of the kinks.

 

But the key is to think of the running of the house as an entity separate from you and from your dh. It's a 'thing' that needs ___ (a schedule, a what??). And it's up to you and dh to come together and make that _____ to keep that ship from sinking.

 

(I know. Clear as mud. But hth anyway.)

 

:grouphug:

Yes, I understand. And that does help.

[solascriptura]

I wonder if it would be helpful to pick a couple of tasks that need to be done regularly and just ask him to take it over. Say it'll become his thing to worry about. Like dinner and food shopping. Something like that. And don't say anything. Just let him figure it out. And have it be some things that truly are time consuming that would lighten your load.

This is what I would do. We have peace about this in our house because there are very clear defined roles. If the ratio is off, discuss than reallocate. I stay at home with the kids and I've come to accept that I'm the manager here. It's different and trickier when both work, but I believe that it can be done. Dh has certain areas where he is better, so that's his area and I don't micromanage. He's the same way with me. He's a bit pickier so when he suggests I do something differently, I say that he is more than welcome do the task for me. That stops him quickly. 😀

Edited June 28, 2017 by solascriptura

[eternalsummer]

I'll dissent here. 

 

Asking women to do the mental work for their spouse - or even asking the kids to do it! - is ridiculous.

 

Women don't have some genetic sex-linked ability to work out kids need sunscreen before they go out for the day in summer. That is commonsense, just as it is commonsense that children going out for the day need their backpacks or that when dinner is done, someone needs to deal with cleaning up the kitchen and doing the dishes. 

 

A father doesn't need training and scaffolding to work this out. They just need to get on with the job. 

 

(And yes, the same with supposedly male jobs. I don't need training and scaffolding to take over bin night from my ds.Adults can figure out this stuff.)

 

However, there is a strong cultural assumption that it's the female spouse's job to take on the work of making any division of labor fairer. Those assumptions abound in this thread.

 

 

I am reasonably certain she said her husband had executive functioning issues, and that many posters (myself included, as someone with poor executive function) were giving advice on that basis.

 

Furthermore, things that a SAHM has been doing for some time are things she has worked out how to do and what needs to be done.  Some of it *is* instinctive - it makes evolutionary sense for women to be naturally nurturing, on the whole; some of it is a byproduct of having been the one doing the work for x number of years and thus having gone through the learning process about what is required.

[eternalsummer]

For instance, wrt our family, when DH says, hey, will you do the dishes, this is how I naturally interpret it:

 

Wash the dishes so that there isn't visible food (at least not much visible food - tiny specks excepted).

 

What he means, it turns out (and what he does when he "does the dishes") is to wash the dishes so that there *aren't* any specks of food, then dry them, then finish any pans left soaking (I leave the pans to soak for days, or until I need it again, if left to my own devices), go around the house and look for abandoned cups, wash those, clean the counters, dry the counters, clean the sink.

 

!

 

To me that is just a lot of work that is not naturally implied in "do the dishes" - but to him it is an obvious part of the job.  

[wendyroo]

For instance, wrt our family, when DH says, hey, will you do the dishes, this is how I naturally interpret it:

 

Wash the dishes so that there isn't visible food (at least not much visible food - tiny specks excepted).

 

What he means, it turns out (and what he does when he "does the dishes") is to wash the dishes so that there *aren't* any specks of food, then dry them, then finish any pans left soaking (I leave the pans to soak for days, or until I need it again, if left to my own devices), go around the house and look for abandoned cups, wash those, clean the counters, dry the counters, clean the sink.

 

!

 

To me that is just a lot of work that is not naturally implied in "do the dishes" - but to him it is an obvious part of the job.  

 

It is the exact opposite in our house.

 

DH "does the dishes" by loading what will fit into the dishwasher.  Period.

 

I load the dishwasher, turn it on (because I find that expedites the dishes getting clean), wash pots and pans and dishes that did not fit in the dishwasher, put away miscellaneous crap from the kitchen counter, wipe down the counters and stove top, put bibs and cloth napkins from the table into the hamper, wipe down the table (and chairs if the kids got them sticky), sweep the kitchen and under the table, and often take out the kitchen garbage.

 

Wendy

[Guinevere]

Maybe you could just pick one thing for now, and say to your dh, "I'm feeling really overwhelmed lately, could you take over keeping the dishes done?"  And, then hand him a paper with a detailed list, "Here are all the things that are on my mind about that chore, and it would be really great if you could just take that load off for me."  

 

Maybe he'd be more receptive to helping his wife feel good, and with two sentences, you finish and end all instruction on the matter.  My dh responds even better if I say, "I'm feeling concerned/scared/upset about all of these things with the dishes."  He does love me and want to make me happy and feel safe and secure, so if he knows I'm walking around feeling worried all day about making dinner because the big pot isn't washed, he's all about keeping the pots clean. 

  

[Guinevere]

It is the exact opposite in our house.

 

DH "does the dishes" by loading what will fit into the dishwasher.  Period.

 

I load the dishwasher, turn it on (because I find that expedites the dishes getting clean), wash pots and pans and dishes that did not fit in the dishwasher, put away miscellaneous crap from the kitchen counter, wipe down the counters and stove top, put bibs and cloth napkins from the table into the hamper, wipe down the table (and chairs if the kids got them sticky), sweep the kitchen and under the table, and often take out the kitchen garbage.

 

Wendy

 

Isn't it so funny how perceptions are different from the exact same words?

 

I'd say, "Please clean the kitchen," if I meant for someone to do all that!

[Catwoman]

I just texted him and asked him to pick out and get DD's birthday present (her birthday is Friday). I told him I'll do cake, card, balloons. We'll see. I'm trying! I'm going to add that he needs to have it wrapped in some manner. :-)

Ok, he said he would.

 

Would you nag/remind about this? Even with the possibility that DD will not have a birthday present if DH forgets?

I'll be the lone dissenter and say that I think you're making a mistake by having your dh choose and purchase your dd's birthday gift, particularly if he's not known for being great at picking out great presents and you don't plan to give him a list of things to purchase.

 

In this case, you might think your dh is doing you a favor by buying the gift, but if he messes up and forgets or even if he remembers but chooses something terrible, your dd will be the one who suffers for it, not you. I don't think that's fair to your dd.

 

Also, I thought you wanted him to help out around the house; the birthday gift thing is obviously something that needs to be done, but wouldn't you be better off focusing on getting him to be responsible for repetitive, day-to-day tasks instead of this once-a-year responsibility?

 

I'm sorry if I sound critical, but in your situation, my biggest concern would be that my child be given what she wants for her birthday, and if I was even slightly concerned that my dh wasn't up to the task, I would much rather have him help out with something else while I did the gift shopping myself.

 

If you are set on the idea of your dh choosing and buying a gift without your input, perhaps you could buy a gift for your dd and have your dh buy another gift, and then give both presents to your dd.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Catwoman

[displace]

I haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm repeating. I just wanted to lend an ear of support.

 

Living with someone with issues isn't easy. In my family, whether I ask something to be done a certain way or let them do it their own way, it always gets done "wrong". I think that word will ruffle feathers. But by that I mean: laundry will be done so that people get the wrong clothes or every one had wrinkled clothes that don't fit or pens are washed with the clothes (often). Or the laundry gets put away in an obscure location so things are permanently lost because the person has no idea where they put them. Chores for pets get forgotten. Dishes get removed and put away when they are dirty, etc. even when I remind person to check/do X or Y or Z, it doesn't happen. And guess who it affects? It's easier to DIY than to clean up after someone with problems like this (IDK if your DH has similar difficulties).

 

For people like this, letting them learn from their mistakes is not feasible IMO. Despite listed problems, the person in my family still does things independently that lead to those results after decades of support. Some people need constant lists and help to function. For us, I assign only chores I don't have to verbally walk through every step. There aren't many and I still have to supervise so obvious things don't get messed up still. The same mistakes are made over and over.

 

I live with the reality that this person needs support and can't help in a lot of ways unless I'm very careful and walk through everything. Lists get "read" wrong here as well.

 

To function, honestly I've had to hire out help. That doesn't work if you're getting ready in the morning, but maybe you can outsource the lawn so you get more inside help during the weekends or something. Idk the ages of your children, but I'd start enlisting their help with chores as much as able. Even if they can't put dishes away, maybe they can unload the dishwasher and put them in a stack on the counter? Help them learn to pack their bags the night before, help them to make their lunches, dress in clothes for the next day before bed (as feasible). I think you already mentioned they have chores.

 

If your daily dynamic is fluctuating you probably need to be the main person thinking of everything and keeping the ship running. If your DH has EF problems, he may not be able to do it, unless he can follow instructions.

 

(Hugs). I know it can be stressful.

 

ETA- in cases where I'm overwhelmed because I'm "doing everything ", I need to cut back on my schedule. The reality is I have to run the household. If I'm overwhelmed, then I need some of my work to disappear. Less extracurricular activities, or more time at home on the weekends prepping meals or a pizza night.

Edited June 28, 2017 by displace

[Bluegoat]

I'll dissent here. 

 

Asking women to do the mental work for their spouse - or even asking the kids to do it! - is ridiculous.

 

Women don't have some genetic sex-linked ability to work out kids need sunscreen before they go out for the day in summer. That is commonsense, just as it is commonsense that children going out for the day need their backpacks or that when dinner is done, someone needs to deal with cleaning up the kitchen and doing the dishes. 

 

A father doesn't need training and scaffolding to work this out. They just need to get on with the job. 

 

(And yes, the same with supposedly male jobs. I don't need training and scaffolding to take over bin night from my ds.Adults can figure out this stuff.)

 

However, there is a strong cultural assumption that it's the female spouse's job to take on the work of making any division of labor fairer. Those assumptions abound in this thread.

 

I don't see this as a female issue.  The OP has been doing these things, and she wants to turn some over to her dh.  If that's going to work, she does have to communicate what she has in mind.

 

I agree she could turn over the job at that point entirely (assuming he agrees) and not manage it, in normal circumstances.  It seems like the OPs dh may have some extra challenges that way.  But generally speaking.

 

But any time someone wants to ask for help that isn't regular, it is likely to mean they will still manage the task.  My dh normally put out trash, for example.  I can manage that, if he wants.  But if he just wants help one time, he'll have to tell me each time he wants me to do it - I won't be keeping track of the schedule.   With other jobs, even to turn them over, he'd have to teach me to do them first.  I don't actually know how to make the snowblower work, for example.  He doesn't know what the kids are doing in their math program, or where I keep the files on the computer.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Bluegoat

[zoobie]

For instance, wrt our family, when DH says, hey, will you do the dishes, this is how I naturally interpret it:

 

Wash the dishes so that there isn't visible food (at least not much visible food - tiny specks excepted).

 

What he means, it turns out (and what he does when he "does the dishes") is to wash the dishes so that there *aren't* any specks of food, then dry them, then finish any pans left soaking (I leave the pans to soak for days, or until I need it again, if left to my own devices), go around the house and look for abandoned cups, wash those, clean the counters, dry the counters, clean the sink.

 

!

 

To me that is just a lot of work that is not naturally implied in "do the dishes" - but to him it is an obvious part of the job.

You would leave food on the dishes? I'm with your DH on this one! Dishes are done when there's no work left for someone else to come along and do after you. It's like any other job. I wouldn't hand my (theoretical) boss an outline and say, here you go, the brief is done. I'd be fired. Of course my theory is that when people do stuff half assed around here is that they're passive aggressively trying to get "fired" from helping. That at some point the amount of energy I have to expend to get them to do the job is more than if I'd do it myself.

[SparklyUnicorn]

See, I don't know.  I do agree with Sadie.  I often feel like for some reason the mental work falls on me.  In our situation I do a lot of these things because I don't get paid for what I do and it is easier for me to do most of these things because I've got more time to do them.  I don't mind per se and think our arrangement is mostly fair, but when I did work full time I did feel like too many things fell to me, but biggest thing of all was the mental work.  There were no indications and still no indications that my DH thinks about the details of day to day life.  He gets up and goes to work.  That's about it.  That isn't nothing and I appreciate what he does do for us, but working would have been a hell of a lot easier for me without having to focus on so many things which is a big part of why I chose not to continue working.  I do better with low stress and I wanted my kids to have a good upbringing without a psychotically stressed and angry mother. 

 

Now, what I'm not 100% sure of is if this is in my head only or if I have somehow done something that has resulted in my spouse taking me a bit for granted...or if he does think all this stuff is my job.  Really I don't know, but I do occasionally feel resentful of this.  The tasks themselves aren't difficult.  The mental part is difficult for me. 

 

But then at the end of the day it's easier to just say specifically what I want rather than fight to make the situation different.  I want XYZ taken care of and not necessarily turn everything into the additional challenge of seeing to it that I feel like things are fair. 

 

 

I disagree, because I don't think it has anything to do with asking the woman to do the mental work.  To me it's about everyone communicating all the things that need to be done.

 

There are quite a few things that I do not do for DH that are often things that typically fall into the wife's stereotypical role.  I don't do his laundry.  I don't handle the scheduling of any of his doctor appointments.  And, as I mentioned, when I leave, for a day, for a weekend, I don't schedule it for him. 

 

BUT, we communicate about all this stuff.  Because we both need all this information to make the right logistical decisions.  If he doesn't tell me that he needs the washer free when he gets home at 7:30 so that he can get his clothes washed and dried in enough time to have clean clothes for work the next day before he goes to bed....it's very likely I will have a load of clothes in the wash when he gets home.  Which means he has to wait till the load of towels is done before he throws his stuff in which means that he then has to stay up later which in turn means that he might even end up late to work the next day.   But I won't know any of this unless he tells me, because I have no idea that he has no clean clothes.

 

OP already said, she isn't giving her DH all the information.  She's telling him only a few things that need to be done, without telling him everything, even though she knows he had no other way to know everything.  For example, he didn't put sunscreen on the kids, but what if the camp provided sunscreen or regularly had indoor days.  How is he supposed to know that the kids need sunscreen that day if he doesn't know what is going on that day...which he wouldn't know if he wasn't present when the kids relayed what they were doing and the OP chose not to relay the info.  

 

Also, the OP was specifically asking about how to talk to her DH about division of labor.  So of course people are giving advice to her about how to talk to him about that.  Not because that's automatically the woman's job...but because that's what the OP asked for. 

 

[mamaraby]

No, I don't think so. Of course the father can handle the task - but then he needs to be left in peace to handle the entire task HIS way. The father can be in charge of figuring out how to get the kids on the bus. He will not forget the shoes when he is in charge of the entire operation. But vague tasks like "getting ready" - not clear what that entails.Packing the backpack when he has not been given the information that kid x needs y? Not possible, since he is not a mind reader.

 

Because getting children ready so they can go to summer camp and spend time outside requires a specialist level of knowledge that is unknowable for the children's father? Like the father can't possibly be expected to know this specialist knowledge and needs his wife to treat him like a child and give him step by step directions?

 

Sorry, no. This is where we excuse his laziness and play into the bumbling, doofus father trope. Dad's aren't incapable of handling it, some just choose not to. It also isn't just the op being unwilling to let him do it his way, either. This is a guy who didn't take the initiative to participate in the care of the house and family when circumstances changed. She used to do it all for him in the past? Fine, but it's not the past and things changed so adults can too.

 

My dh works, I'm a SAHM, but he still remains capable of handling getting our kids ready for anything and feeding people and cleaning the house and parenting. Cuz he's an adult and fathers aren't idiots. It drives him nuts when people refer to him taking his fair share of the parenting and calling it babysitting because he's not a babysitter. I am not solely responsible for the care of our children.

 

OP, not sure how you address it other than I would not enable him by providing step by step instructions or otherwise scaffolding him like he's one of your children. He's an adult and needs to exercise his adult level skills around the house. I imagine his employer doesn't scaffold him and hold his hand. I imagine he's responsible enough to do his responsibilities there or he wouldn't have his job.

 

Maybe you can frame this discussion that way? Maybe you can begin from, "We're all adults and the situation needs to change." You are partners in this after all, and I assume everything else is healthy and otherwise fine. In that case, you can offer support if he wants to find some classes or hire a life coach or get help for improving executive function issues. What I wouldn't do is continue to infantalize my adult husband and treat him as if he needs to be taught like a child. We women learned by doing, he can too.

 

I do want to thank the OP for the thread and another poster for the link to the comic. It prompted an interesting discussion at our house with my ds. It also provided an opportunity to discuss growth areas. No, the washing machine should not be stuffed full and why do I have to be the only one to think about this? Use your brains, house males! Logic dictates the soap and water need space too. It's not like the washing machine cleans clothes by magic.

 

And I'm doubling down on life skills for all my children including stopping them and pointing out "Hey, what else do you notice or think logically should be included in this task?" I will teach my children because they're kids. I will not teach my husband unless we're talking the sort that one does when a friend asks them to share their knowledge because he's an adult and he can handle it.

[regentrude]

Because getting children ready so they can go to summer camp and spend time outside requires a specialist level of knowledge that is unknowable for the children's father? Like the father can't possibly be expected to know this specialist knowledge and needs his wife to treat him like a child and give him step by step directions?

 

You completely missed my point.

I was  trying to point out the disticntion between "get child ready to get on the bus for camp" and "get child ready (to the point where mother will take over)".

The first is clear cut and I expect the father to figure this out, which he would, if he were in charge of the entire process.

The second is not, because there can be different interpretations up to what point the child has to be "ready" and what the mother is going to do when she takes over to finish the process. It requires explicit communication that would not be necesssary if the father was completely in charge of the task.

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[mamaraby]

You completely missed my point.

I was trying to point out the disticntion between "get child ready to get on the bus for camp" and "get child ready (to the point where mother will take over)".

The first is clear cut and I expect the father to figure this out, which he would, if he were in charge of the entire process.

The second is not, because there can be different interpretations up to what point the child has to be "ready" and what the mother is going to do when she takes over to finish the process. It requires explicit communication that would not be necesssary if the father was completely in charge of the task.

No, I get your point, but he can't think that through himself? She has to think it through for him? Why does the mental work stay in her court? If he's not sure, I would imagine he is verbal and can ask her to clarify. The gist of most responses here still leaves him as the hired help with no responsibility for the mental work behind it.

[regentrude]

No, I get your point, but he can't think that through himself? She has to think it through for him? Why does the mental work stay in her court? If he's not sure, I would imagine he is verbal and can ask her to clarify. The gist of most responses here still leaves him as the hired help with no responsibility for the mental work behind it.

 

Isn't "mental work" a bit of an exaggeration for what we are discussing here?

 

One person has a clear idea what she thinks should happen. She wants the the other person to do it just so. So she needs to communicate that she wants it just so. Otherwise, the other person may interpret the task his way (as we have seen in previous posts, peeople interpret the same task to involve vastly different sets of sub-tasks) and it may not occur to him to check whether this is exactly the way the first person meant the task to be completed.

Which is why it is so much more efficient for people to be in charge of complete tasks, and not switch mid-stream, unless that is a clear established routine.

Edited June 28, 2017 by regentrude

[Rebel Yell]

After breakfast, we are both at work. There is no time to clean it up, unless you're doing it while cooking dinner.  Which SUCKS, but it's what I'll be doing tonight.

 

I dropped the kids off at the bus that takes them to camp. There is no other time to do it. The kids said they didn't want  us doing it at the drop off point (which is 10ish minutes away) because "it's embarrassing."

I won't repeat the great advice you e already been given, but I did want to comment on the bus drop-off...

 

"It's embarrassing."

 

Ummmm.... so? If the drop off point will make a significant difference in scheduling/travel time for drivers/sanity, then drop-off point it is! Your kids are little, right? I wouldn't drive one inch for my kids (15 & 17) if they tried that line. Because do they know what else will lessen my stress levels? Not going to the activity! (I understand the camp may be a child care issue while you work, but it isn't likely the only option)

 

And I truly can't imagine how being dropped off at the camp bus or a meeting point is any different. It's not like we're talking about 18year old high school seniors being driven to Prom by their parents in the rusty 1988 white minivan with the fakewood panels ;)

 

My point is, for the kids, especially since they're so young, they need to accept the fact that sometimes they don't get their preferences because the Benevolent Overlords have needs, too. And for me, needing to streamline travel time would win out over not wanting to be picked up at a drop off point.

[regentrude]

I won't repeat the great advice you e already been given, but I did want to comment on the bus drop-off...

 

"It's embarrassing."

 

Ummmm.... so? If the drop off point will make a significant difference in scheduling/travel time for drivers/sanity, then drop-off point it is! Your kids are little, right? I wouldn't drive one inch for my kids (15 & 17) if they tried that line. Because do they know what else will lessen my stress levels? Not going to the activity! (I understand the camp may be a child care issue while you work, but it isn't likely the only option)

 

And I truly can't imagine how being dropped off at the camp bus or a meeting point is any different. It's not like we're talking about 18year old high school seniors being driven to Prom by their parents in the rusty 1988 white minivan with the fakewood panels ;)

 

My point is, for the kids, especially since they're so young, they need to accept the fact that sometimes they don't get their preferences because the Benevolent Overlords have needs, too. And for me, needing to streamline travel time would win out over not wanting to be picked up at a drop off point.

 

I understood her post to mean that the embarrassing thing is to be slathered in sunscreen/big spray at the drop off point. Not that she is driving to a different place. (But I had to read her post repeatedly to figure outthat this is probably what she means)

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I won't repeat the great advice you e already been given, but I did want to comment on the bus drop-off...

 

"It's embarrassing."

 

Ummmm.... so? If the drop off point will make a significant difference in scheduling/travel time for drivers/sanity, then drop-off point it is! Your kids are little, right? I wouldn't drive one inch for my kids (15 & 17) if they tried that line. Because do they know what else will lessen my stress levels? Not going to the activity! (I understand the camp may be a child care issue while you work, but it isn't likely the only option)

 

And I truly can't imagine how being dropped off at the camp bus or a meeting point is any different. It's not like we're talking about 18year old high school seniors being driven to Prom by their parents in the rusty 1988 white minivan with the fakewood panels ;)

 

My point is, for the kids, especially since they're so young, they need to accept the fact that sometimes they don't get their preferences because the Benevolent Overlords have needs, too. And for me, needing to streamline travel time would win out over not wanting to be picked up at a drop off point.

 

I think she meant that the kids didn't want the sunscreen/bug spraying to happen at the drop-off point, not that they preferred some other transportation option.

 

ETA: Oops, regentrude beat me to it.

Edited June 28, 2017 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Rebel Yell]

I understood her post to mean that the embarrassing thing is to be slathered in sunscreen/big spray at the drop off point. Not that she is driving to a different place. (But I had to read her post repeatedly to figure outthat this is probably what she means)

LOL see so many of us womenfolk even interpret actual printed words differently! :D My brain just focused on the drop off point. Just like some people's brains focus on washing clothes, but not drying them and putting them away when they "do laundry"

 

(And on several occasions when I have asked an adult child to "put the laundry in the dryer" I found out later she didn't TURN THE DRYER ON!)

[Rebel Yell]

I think she meant that the kids didn't want the sunscreen/bug spraying to happen at the drop-off point, not that they preferred some other transportation option.

 

ETA: Oops, regentrude beat me to it.

Haha no problem, I'm sure you're both right, but I'm leaving my post up because I'm sure it will be helpful to someone in some other situation...

 

ETA: the bug spray part must have been in another post that wasn't in my quote.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Rebel Yell

[QueenCat]

See, I just hate asking DH to do things.

I feel like that makes me out to be his boss or mother rather than partner or wife.

I want him to commit to doing things and then do them without talking about it.

Ha.

 

I think it's okay to ask.......... it's not okay to delegate to a partner. Bosses delegate, partners ask.