Is EFC kind of like...

[Ann.without.an.e]

When the bank tells you what you can afford for a house? Because we never, ever could afford what those calculators told us we could afford. We would laugh about how ridiculous they were and then look for something much cheaper.

[Guest]

EFC is like the assessor telling you what your house is worth.

[Ann.without.an.e]

EFC is like the assessor telling you what your house is worth.

So you think my comparison is stretched? Or do we have different tax assessor situations? They tend to undervalue houses here.

[JanetC]

EFC is the number on your FAFSA SAR, or a secret number calculated from your CSS Profile.

 

The calculators on school websites return your Net Price, which can vary greatly based on a number of factors.

[mjbucks1]

I suppose it depends on your situation, but for us, yes. There is no way we could afford our EFC without me returning to work. This was very similar to when we built our house years ago and the lender told us we qualified for WAY more than we actually could have afforded to borrow (unless we decided food was optional...😂😂).

[8filltheheart]

I get what you are saying. Yes. It is a formula-based number that may or may not reflect something feasible for your family. There are a lot of families that cannot afford what is expected.

[GoodGrief]

Sounds about right.

[DawnM]

I just can't go by those.  We can't do that.  We didn't for housing either.  They wanted to lend us THREE TIMES the amount we borrowed for our house.

 

As for what we can contribute to college, we will have two in college at the same time for a while.  So, we have had to have a brutally honest conversation with our kids.  State school OR the equivalent of state school funding OR they pay the difference.

[Guest]

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Edited April 17, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[whitestavern]

I just can't go by those.  We can't do that.  We didn't for housing either.  They wanted to lend us THREE TIMES the amount we borrowed for our house.

 

As for what we can contribute to college, we will have two in college at the same time for a while.  So, we have had to have a brutally honest conversation with our kids.  State school OR the equivalent of state school funding OR they pay the difference.

 

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

[plansrme]

I think that is a great analogy.  My observation is that the EFC corresponds with real life only at the complete opposite ends of the economic spectrum, i.e., those who can't afford to spend anything and those who don't blink at $70K/year.

[fourisenough]

When the bank tells you what you can afford for a house? Because we never, ever could afford what those calculators told us we could afford. We would laugh about how ridiculous they were and then look for something much cheaper.

Perfect analogy, IMHO!

[fourisenough]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero. I guess this isn't the case?

Lol! I wish! Maybe this is true for some, but definitely not across the board.

[DawnM]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

It didn't spit out zero for me.  

[Mom22ns]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

:lol:  Only in my dreams. I want to say the EFC was slightly lower for #2 than it was for #1, but it didn't approach zero. 

[JanetC]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero. I guess this isn't the case?

The standard EFC formula for the FAFSA is to take the EFC for one child and divide by two to get the EFC for each.

 

The standard EFC formula for the Profile is to multiply the EFC for one child times 60%

 

Schools can do whatever they want, though.

Edited April 17, 2017 by JanetC

[angela in ohio]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

In our case, it sort of is. The amount for each dc was roughly half of what it was for one dc. So effectively, the second child was zero.

[JanetC]

:lol: Only in my dreams. I want to say the EFC was slightly lower for #2 than it was for #1, but it didn't approach zero.

Your EFC could have dropped, but the EFC to Net Price conversion at your particular colleges may not have been in your favor.

[8filltheheart]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero. I guess this isn't the case?

I wish. Then if we'd only had 2 sets of quadruplets we'd only have pd for 2 kids!

 

It depends on the school, overlap, and 60-60 is typical but only at meets need schools.

Edited April 17, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Julie of KY]

EFC doesn't matter at schools that simply meet all your need in loans anyway.

The bottom line is that schools want lots of our money and the government calculates that we should be able to spend a big chunk of our savings and income toward college.

[Crimson Wife]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

I had thought that when my DD started her dual enrollment classes it would slightly reduce my EFC for my 2nd bachelor's (not enough to qualify me for anything other than loans but making it look slightly less ridiculous). Nope.

[MerryAtHope]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

Not here either, and the first one didn't drop when the second was added. There is a slight difference between my two but that's because they have different amounts in savings. You can work through a worksheet manually to see exactly how it's calculated.

[Lori D.]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

Nope. Our EFC was virtually the same, just divided over 2 DSs, when we went from 1 DS in college to the next year with 2 DSs in college. The EFC also did not change the following year when DH retired and immediately returned to college to finish his Bachelor's degree, so 3 family members were in college simultaneously. :(

[creekland]

I read/heard (don't remember where) that your EFC for a second child in college is zero.  I guess this isn't the case?

 

Not here either.  And with middle son graduating, youngest son's didn't "increase" by all of his amount either even though we'll be back to one in college for the first time in years.  I had expected it would TBH.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I ran a mock npc for ds with dd in college and it wasn't the same efc divided between them. It was about 1.5-1.75 times dds efc divided between them ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜. It was surprisingly not a huge savings and I don't get that - if it is what we can afford then how does having a second in school suddenly make us afford more?

Edited April 17, 2017 by Attolia

[creekland]

I ran a mock npc for ds with dd in college and it wasn't the same efc divided between them. It was about 1.5-1.75 times dds efc divided between them ðŸ˜ðŸ˜ðŸ˜. It was surprisingly not a huge savings and I don't get that - if it is what we can afford then how does having a second in school suddenly make us afford more?

 

This matches what we've experienced too - and I have no idea how we can suddenly afford that much more unless they are adding up the lower food, electric, gas, etc, bills at home.  I'm not sure.  I know it IS cheaper at home without the boys living there - in the same way our grocery bill goes down when we eat out often.   :glare:  

[HTRMom]

It's not a terrible analogy. I kind of think of it like a progressive income tax. If we divided up all the college tuitions in the nation in some income-adjusted way, this is how much each family would need to pay. It's almost always more than the family could actually pay, because college costs more than almost any American can afford.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ann.without.an.e]

This matches what we've experienced too - and I have no idea how we can suddenly afford that much more unless they are adding up the lower food, electric, gas, etc, bills at home. I'm not sure. I know it IS cheaper at home without the boys living there - in the same way our grocery bill goes down when we eat out often. :glare:

I did think of some of the savings - food, utilities, etc but they can't eat or shower THAT many dollars worth and as college kids they'll still need other things from us beyond paying a school bill.

[creekland]

I did think of some of the savings - food, utilities, etc but they can't eat or shower THAT many dollars worth and as college kids they'll still need other things from us beyond paying a school bill.

 

Well... when I compare how much our grocery budget goes down when our eating out is high, that's not exactly an even money switch either, :coolgleamA:  so I still say it's a similar comparison.    :lol:

Edited April 18, 2017 by creekland

[Ann.without.an.e]

Well... when I compare how much our grocery budget goes down when our eating out is high, that's not exactly an even money switch either, :coolgleamA: so I still say it's a similar comparison. :lol:

We spent all day yesterday walking Duke, I was tired, and I missed your point altogether when you posted about eating out. 😂😂. Yes, a very accurate comparison you made there. 😂

[Guest]

I did think of some of the savings - food, utilities, etc but they can't eat or shower THAT many dollars worth and as college kids they'll still need other things from us beyond paying a school bill.

Because we are rural,.our savings is transportation. No car needed at college or way less miles because everything is close to campus, so huge decrease in expense. Also discounted entertainment.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

When the bank tells you what you can afford for a house? Because we never, ever could afford what those calculators told us we could afford. We would laugh about how ridiculous they were and then look for something much cheaper.

In a way yes.  But the difference is with a house you can search for a cheaper property to buy.  With EFC they say you can afford X amount.  Depending on the school they may only offer you funding for amounts above that line.  Each school is a bit different though in how they apply the numbers.

 

You really need to look at the financial aid/scholarship/grant package offered by each institution and then add on anything not calculated into their figures-transportation home, running around money, books, medical insurance, medical expenses not covered, etc.  Also look closely at how any work study money is actually used.  They may be using that to make costs look lower when in reality you'll pay that money up front in tuition and they get it back over the semester in (potentially) taxable income.

 

Also, when looking at costs remember to factor in whatever percentage the school typically increases expenses by each year.  Year 4 can cost more than Year 1 due to inflation.

 

FWIW I think the EFC numbers are nuts and often way out of line with reality.

[goldberry]

Our EFC was not attainable. We're able to afford about half. (57%)

 

I still think it should be illegal to give *adults* less assistance based on their parent's income.  Parents have no legal obligation to help adult children in any way.  So, they are saying the parent "should" help the adult child with college, but they don't "have" to, so why should the child be penalized by not getting decent assistance even if the parent can't or won't help?  They can't control if the parent gives them money or not.

 

EFCs have kept smart and dedicated people from being able to afford college.  

 

Can you tell this is a hot point for me?   :glare:

Edited April 18, 2017 by goldberry

[Crimson Wife]

 

I still think it should be illegal to give *adults* less assistance based on their parent's income.  Parents have no legal obligation to help adult children in any way.  So, they are saying the parent "should" help the adult child with college, but they don't "have" to, so why should the child be penalized by not getting decent assistance even if the parent can't or won't help?  They can't control if the parent gives them money or not.

 

Financial aid resources are limited and wealthy families already hire clever accountants to try & game the system.

 

I do think it should be easier for those 18-24 to prove that they are financially independent and qualify for financial aid on their own income & assets (or lack thereof). But it wouldn't be fair for millionaires' offspring to automatically be considered "independent" just because they are 18+.

 

[8filltheheart]

It is next to impossible for college students under 24 to claim independence. Our 21 yr old receives no financial assistance from us. We didn't claim him on our taxes, and yet he couldn't claim himself bc he lives off of scholarship $$. So while the wealthy are sheltering $$, our ds is being taxed at our kiddie tax rate and we aren't even claiming him!

[goldberry]

Financial aid resources are limited and wealthy families already hire clever accountants to try & game the system.

 

I do think it should be easier for those 18-24 to prove that they are financially independent and qualify for financial aid on their own income & assets (or lack thereof). But it wouldn't be fair for millionaires' offspring to automatically be considered "independent" just because they are 18+.

 

 

My friend went through a nasty divorce.  Her husband, the primary money maker, had an affair and left.  Three VERY smart kids.  Dad has made plain that he won't be contributing a dime.  Nada.  And yet his income still has to be included, disqualifying her for most aid.  How do you solve those kinds of issues?

 

(Aside, she is appealing directly to a few colleges.  They are hoping to get somewhere with that.  One made her sign a form that she doesn't have contact with him and will continue not to have contact with him.  That's kind of freaky in my opinion.)

[Crimson Wife]

My friend went through a nasty divorce.  Her husband, the primary money maker, had an affair and left.  Three VERY smart kids.  Dad has made plain that he won't be contributing a dime.  Nada.  And yet his income still has to be included, disqualifying her for most aid.  How do you solve those kinds of issues?

 

College tuition is a standard part of a divorce settlement and if her lawyer didn't get that included, it sounds like he/she was totally incompetent.

 

There's actually a bit of unfairness in that divorced parents can be ordered by the court to pay college tuition while married parents cannot, but that's the way things stand.

[Crimson Wife]

There was even a case in the news maybe a decade ago where the divorced dad wanted to force the kids to attend a state school (SUNY? can't remember) while the mom wanted him to pay for a private college (not an Ivy but more selective than the state school). The court sided with the mom and ordered the dad to pay his share of the private college's tuition.

[Gratia271]

 

I still think it should be illegal to give *adults* less assistance based on their parent's income.  Parents have no legal obligation to help adult children in any way.  So, they are saying the parent "should" help the adult child with college, but they don't "have" to, so why should the child be penalized by not getting decent assistance even if the parent can't or won't help?  They can't control if the parent gives them money or not.

 

 

DH moved out and supported himself from 18 years of age, working full time nights/weekends and full time school during day.  The engineering school he attended basically said he qualified for nada because Daddy made so much money.  DH had his father sign letter that there was no support, he showed rental agreement and utilities in his own name, etc etc. and it meant nothing.

 

It really does suck for young adults who are on their own.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by Gratia271

[Matryoshka]

My friend went through a nasty divorce.  Her husband, the primary money maker, had an affair and left.  Three VERY smart kids.  Dad has made plain that he won't be contributing a dime.  Nada.  And yet his income still has to be included, disqualifying her for most aid.  How do you solve those kinds of issues?

 

(Aside, she is appealing directly to a few colleges.  They are hoping to get somewhere with that.  One made her sign a form that she doesn't have contact with him and will continue not to have contact with him.  That's kind of freaky in my opinion.)

 

I thought for FAFSA, the income of the non-custodial divorced parent's income is not included for aid/EFC purposes?

 

For CSS, of course, it is, because the CSS is evil.

[goldberry]

I thought for FAFSA, the income of the non-custodial divorced parent's income is not included for aid/EFC purposes?

 

For CSS, of course, it is, because the CSS is evil.

I believe it was CSS. Also, regarding why she did not get college tuition in her divorce agreement, the husband was really a jerk and trying to sue for full custody of the kids. He was using that as a negotiation tool. My friend was so afraid and upset about it that I don't think she was thinking very clearly. No, the lawyer wasn't the greatest. My friend did not have much money. That doesn't mean she or her kids deserved to get screwed though.

[JanetC]

If they are VERY smart kids there are lists of schools with excellent scholarships for grades and test scores. 8Filltheheart is the board expert on finding those. Or, the kids could go to FAFSA-only schools which won't consider dad's income.

 

Where they can't go are the big name selective schools that take the Profile. But it sounds like that's just where the kids all applied?

 

In terms of why it's so hard to get parents off the hook: it's because as college became more expensive, parents began finding ways to make their children independent as a money-saving strategy. Their clever frugality ruined it for kids from truly dysfunctional families when all the "loopholes" were closed in the 80s.

[TravelingChris]

Our EFC is ridiculous since it is higher than any college out there I think and is about one/third of our income.  So dd is taking a maximum student loan out and then we will pay the rest.  We are ending up paying for one semester for her Junior year and one semester for her senior year. She has a grant for that senior year which will help.  Plus we always pay for her summer classes at the local university. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

In a way yes.  But the difference is with a house you can search for a cheaper property to buy.  With EFC they say you can afford X amount.  Depending on the school they may only offer you funding for amounts above that line.  Each school is a bit different though in how they apply the numbers.

 

You really need to look at the financial aid/scholarship/grant package offered by each institution and then add on anything not calculated into their figures-transportation home, running around money, books, medical insurance, medical expenses not covered, etc.  Also look closely at how any work study money is actually used.  They may be using that to make costs look lower when in reality you'll pay that money up front in tuition and they get it back over the semester in (potentially) taxable income.

 

Also, when looking at costs remember to factor in whatever percentage the school typically increases expenses by each year.  Year 4 can cost more than Year 1 due to inflation.

 

FWIW I think the EFC numbers are nuts and often way out of line with reality.

 

 

 

Yes we have found this to be very true with DD. She has gained all sorts of merit aid, but it doesn't make any difference at all to our EFC.  None, nada.  You would think it could help but nope.  

[Arch at Home]

In only one instance did merit aid cut our EFC. In that case grants were stacked on the merit aid. In every other case, merit aid was less than our need and grants were used to make up the difference.

[8filltheheart]

Yes we have found this to be very true with DD. She has gained all sorts of merit aid, but it doesn't make any difference at all to our EFC.  None, nada.  You would think it could help but nope.

 

  

In only one instance did merit aid cut our EFC. In that case grants were stacked on the merit aid. In every other case, merit aid was less than our need and grants were used to make up the difference.

This is bc of the types of schools being applied to. For schools that are need-focused, rarely does anything take a family below their expected contribution unless a family is full pay/close to full pay. Usually you will see a grant to scholarship swap. In some cases they may eliminate workstudy and the student loan. The parental contribution will usually remain the same. The exception would be those tiny handful (some may have 1or 2) full-ride scholarships at those schools.

 

It really takes finding schools that allow scholarships to stack or schools that offer very large merit packages. Parental contribution can be eliminated, but it is not going to happen at elite schools. Some of the higher ranked schools do offer competitive full-tuition scholarships, but you still have to be able to afford everything elseotherwise it will still most likely be a switch.

[JanetC]

Merit aid brings my DD's tuition below EFC, but only because our EFC is high to begin with.

 

For a high EFC, merit aid is a great deal. Any scholarship beats full pay, but at most private schools a typical merit award doesn't beat full pay at a state school.

 

For a low EFC, need based is often better. Particularly when the EFC is very low and the stats are very high. There are a few schools (famously, Stanford) that understand that the formulas are whack and give need based aid that comes in below the EFC.

 

EFC's around +/- 25K or so are awful when families don't have the money. They can't afford to pay it, it's too much to borrow, and only a few merit awards come down lower.

[8filltheheart]

EFC's around +/- 25K or so are awful when families don't have the money. They can't afford to pay it, it's too much to borrow, and only a few merit awards come down lower.

If the kids are very high stats, there are schools where they can get merit to go below $25k.

[*LC]

I must have done something wrong when filling out the FASFA last year. I filled it out for my upcoming senior first. She had earned a lot interning that summer, plus her tax forms showed her "making" the money her intern employer gave her to cover summer housing in Silicon Valley as well as her plane tickets. So, her EFC was about 4x what it was her senior year of high school, which was the last time I had filled out the FASFA.

 

Then I filled out the FASFA for my incoming freshman, who had about $2,000 in income from a part-time job. Somehow his EFC came out higher than the senior's EFC, and her EFC did not change. I don't know what I did wrong, but in reality it didn't matter for our family. My high schooler was going to go to the same school as my college student, so I knew my high schooler would get similar merit aid as his sister. I knew her cost had always been less than our EFC.

 

In reality, he ended up with even more merit aid. It cost me less than less than $2,000 to send him to college for the year. (That includes room, board, fees, everything that the college charges plus books. He has no transportation costs, since he rides with his sister.) That amount is less than 10 percent of his EFC.

 

For my senior, I paid the school even less. Then, I receive a rebate for the off campus meal plan, because she is exempt. So, the school gives me back everything I paid for her, plus the difference for the meal plan. I do pay for her apartment, which cost about $4,000 this year. She did not find a subleaser for the summer after graduation, because she wants to leave her things in her apartment for the summer. Her new employer is paying to move her belongings to her city, and she thinks it will be easier for the movers to pick up her things/furniture from the apartment than to move it all to our out-of-state house and move it from there eight weeks later. Last year, she found a subleaser for her study abroad semester and another for the summer term. So, the apartment cost $1,500 for her junior year. Food costs are a wash because of her allergies; she does not eat what the rest of the family does.

 

P.S. I liked the analogy. I remember the same feeling about what the bank said we could afford as newlyweds, straight out of college, looking for our house.

Edited April 19, 2017 by *LC

[JanetC]

If the kids are very high stats, there are schools where they can get merit to go below $25k.

 

Absolutely - I qualified it with "only a few" because there are many more opportunities above 25K than below.