Does anyone else see this? Do you think it is cause for concern?

[kiana]

That said, I don't think needing a couple of remedial classes is a sign that the student is destined to fail or that they can't obtain a college degree. I had tutoring students who later got degrees that required as least some college level math. I have a friend who took 3 remedial math classes before being ready for college level math and he's a successful IT manager now.

 

Absolutely not.

 

I was just talking with one of my former students, who entered a few years back in all remedial classes, with an ACT score in the 'distinctly not college-ready' group -- while avoiding giving details, let's just say that both the composite score and the math score were lower than the school average faith mentioned a few posts back.

 

This person passed them all the first time and is on track to graduate with a pretty ok GPA in a STEM major, requiring only one extra semester over what would have been required normally. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The education requirement in our state for homeschooling parents isn't a college degree. It's 45 college credits (on the quarter system). That is approximately 1 year of college and there is no requirement as to what those credits contain or where they come from.

 

I definitely saw more than a couple uneducated homeschool kids in my high school in 1994-1998. I've known others as well, especially when it comes to people expecting self taught math.

 

I have mixed feelings about how much can realistically be done to protect students in situations where their parent or guardian is, for whatever reason, not willing or able to provide a solid education. I don't know what the answer is or that there is one.

 

You are right on the education requirement.  I had seen a requirement for some college credits and translated that to a degree in my brain.  Mea culpa.

 

I've taught more than a couple of uneducated high school kids who were never homeschooled in public high schools here in this state. I am defining uneducated as "not even close to grade level in core subjects".   I've taught for three different school districts and a private school in the area.  I think that is a shame no matter why they slipped through the cracks. 

[FaithManor]

I think that Doug Wilson found out that no one wanted to marry the doormat girls the quiver full movement was raising. Even Quiver full men didn't want them. I believe very few of these girl get married unless they had money behind them. Abusers want strong women to subdue. Even abusers didn't want these girls. It was just heartbreaking.

Jeff Botkins daughters are 30 and 28 if memory serves and never married. Doug Phillips has two daughters marrying age but no marriages and many other leaders.

 

The thing is it much harder to keep the young men in the movement. They have so much more agency because they were born with "dangling participles". So they can leave so much more easily and generally have a better high school education. So if they get out, they are definitely nor marrying a girl from within the movement.

 

The other thing with these groups is they emphasize the fathers operating small businesses - be the boss, be independent. Well very often these businesses do not make enough money to support multiple sons working in them. This means somebody is getting a job elsewhere if he wants to make enough to support a family which means he is getting out in the world and meeting a different kind of a girl.

 

Locally many quiverful families also earmark the first born girl as the maiden. She is to never leave home and is required to care for her parents in their elder years. Unless she runs away, she has no choice. Since she is undereducated, that makes leaving a much more difficult task.

 

The Dominionist movement pretty much has to rely on converting oursiders to their ideals because the ones raised in them, especially sons, do not have a high rate of remaining in the faith.

 

I am not sure if anything can be reasonably done about the situation, but maybe if some kid somewhere who was raised educationally feral were to sue their parents for negligence and it made national news? I have personally seen situations so bad that suing should have been an option for that young adult! Something about hitting the pocketbook always seems to speak volumes. Sigh...I hate the concept though.

[GoodGrief]

I live in a low reg state (absolute freedom to homeschool independently) that offers a multitude of programs geared to support homeschoolers based out of various school districts, along with a few "homeschool" charter schools. For a great deal of the 17+ years I homeschooled, we participated in one or the other of these programs (which are quite low intervention if you choose, which I did.)

 

The programs are nice for the funding, but I can't say that I found the teachers to be terribly knowledgeable about homeschooling, be it methods, curric, or principles. They meant well, but homeschooling is a specialty, and as far as I am aware, there are no universities educating teachers in the business of homeschool principles. Most were happy to be hands off in our case, because my kids were high achieving, and I worked around the teachers.

 

The laws regarding these programs varied throughout the years, and there were times when regulations made certain aspects of accountability annoying and unnecessarily time consuming. I have yet to meet a regulation, well-intentioned as the creators may be, that I thought was really improving educational opportunities for any of the kids.

 

As far as parents asking for online programs (or expecting a co-op to educate their kids or whatever), I see that as a cry for help. They see the public schools as an inadequate option, and they are trying to figure out what else they could do.

 

I have a 13 year old in public school now. It's clear to me that I could do a better job, but she's happy, and there are other benefits. However, the experience, combined with my homeschooling years (and personal public/private school education, in another part of the country), has convinced me that freedom for parents to educate their children as they choose is the best situation. Yes, some kids will fall through the cracks. Some will do so with regulation as well. But most will not.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

Like your daughter I made good money in college tutoring remedial math.

 

That said, I don't think needing a couple of remedial classes is a sign that the student is destined to fail or that they can't obtain a college degree. I had tutoring students who later got degrees that required as least some college level math. I have a friend who took 3 remedial math classes before being ready for college level math and he's a successful IT manager now.

 

Dr. Martin Luther King was a student who arrived at college and discovered that despite being at the top of his high school class he needed remedial work in some subject areas like writing. The segregated school he had attended didn't have high enough level coursework.

I do agree with you.

 

But I'm sure we all agree that students unprepared for college is a rotten situation, when they have been wasting years doing WHATEVER when they could've been learning stuff.

 

Many students hoped to be in math heavy majors and have to take a step backward and go "Is my scholarship money going to hold out for the semesters that I'll need to complete this degree?"

 

So unnecessary.

[bethben]

I think that Doug Wilson found out that no one wanted to marry the doormat girls the  quiver full movement was raising. Even Quiver full men didn't want them. I believe very few of these girl get married unless they had money behind them. Abusers want strong women to subdue. Even abusers didn't want these girls. It was just heartbreaking.

 

This is coming from a 16 year old boy who "knows everything" so take what he says with the teen boy filter...He talks before class and during group activities online with other homeschoolers and homeschool girls.  He's know a few irl.  He says he will never marry a homeschooled girl.  Trying to get what he's talking about, he basically sums it up that a lot of them he interacts with, have no personality.  They are sweet, kind, good with small children, and obey their parents, but have no "zing", no "fire", no "passion about anything".  Not all of these I'm assuming are from the quiver full movement, but some are.  Yes, I did bring up some exceptions with a small minority of other homeschool girls he knows, but the moms in these minorities usually have something that makes them less of a "sweet homeschooling mom". One of the girl's mom he knows races mini cars with her husband.  Nicely, he says his sister will never be like that because I guess I have some decent "zing" to me.  He says he will most likely marry someone a bit sarcastic just like me....NOOOOO!!!!

[LucyStoner]

But I'm sure we all agree that students unprepared for college is a rotten situation, when they have been wasting years doing WHATEVER when they could've been learning stuff.

 

Many students hoped to be in math heavy majors and have to take a step backward and go "Is my scholarship money going to hold out for the semesters that I'll need to complete this degree?"

 

So unnecessary.

Absolutely.

 

What I see a lot and still bothers me is the notion that underprepared homeschoolers aren't a problem or are less of a problem *because* there also exist underprepared public schoolers. The failures within the public school system regardless of the causes do not in my view exempt homeschoolers from an obligation to try and do the best by their children. Basically I think that homeschoolers need to concern themselves with homeschooling in an honest and forthright manner and not maintain this wishful thinking that any homeschool is better than every public school. I think we both agree on this.

Edited January 18, 2017 by LucyStoner

[FaithManor]

This is coming from a 16 year old boy who "knows everything" so take what he says with the teen boy filter...He talks before class and during group activities online with other homeschoolers and homeschool girls. He's know a few irl. He says he will never marry a homeschooled girl. Trying to get what he's talking about, he basically sums it up that a lot of them he interacts with, have no personality. They are sweet, kind, good with small children, and obey their parents, but have no "zing", no "fire", no "passion about anything". Not all of these I'm assuming are from the quiver full movement, but some are. Yes, I did bring up some exceptions with a small minority of other homeschool girls he knows, but the moms in these minorities usually have something that makes them less of a "sweet homeschooling mom". One of the girl's mom he knows races mini cars with her husband. Nicely, he says his sister will never be like that because I guess I have some decent "zing" to me. He says he will most likely marry someone a bit sarcastic just like me....NOOOOO!!!!

That personality thing does go hand in hand with the dominionist thing. Gothardism being a prime example. Children and in particular, girls, are to NEVER be caught with any expression other than a smile. They are to be docile, meek, even. The curriculum teaches them to never raise their voice, never speak animatedly, never express any desire that is not daddy's desire or husband's. The end. All children must comply with all commands and requests immediately with a smile and a yes maam yes sir. Pretty much any show of emotion is a sin. Only smiling. And blanket training is advocated so some of these kids are being smacked at a very young age for crawling off the blanket.

 

It is brainwashing plain and simple.

 

So I can easily see how some young person not raised with that crazy would perceive another from within the cult as "hollow", "robotic", "without personality". That is the desirable trait within the cult.

 

I wish there was some way to help children being raised/homeschooled this way.

[maize]

My kids do not have a meek and sweet mother.

 

They have a strong willed, argumentative mother.

 

I suppose I have only myself to blame for the strong willed, argumentative children who wear me out...

[FaithManor]

Absolutely.

 

What I see a lot and still bothers me is the notion that underprepared homeschoolers aren't a problem or are less of a problem *because* there also exist underprepared public schoolers. The failures within the public school system regardless of the causes do not in my view exempt homeschoolers from an obligation to try and do the best by their children. Basically I think that homeschoolers need to concern themselves with homeschooling in an honest and forthright manner and not maintain this wishful thinking that any homeschool is better than every public school. I think we both agree on this.

Yes.

 

And to this point when children attend PS the information is presented. Maybe the environment is total crap, maybe there are 50 kids on the classroom, maybe the rules are awful, etc. but algebra is actually presented. Shakespeare is presented. The five paragraph essay is presented. Real science books are handed out and somebody is teaching cell biology and Newton's laws.

 

There is something very wrong with the view of homeschooling - thankfully a small group of followers - that as long as the kids are working in the garden, keeping a diary, reading Little House on the Prairie, and watching PBS all is good.

 

No. Sorry. That is FAR less than the PS, even the bad ones, is providing.

 

I think this is the kind of thing many of us refer to as "not good enough" and especially at the middle and high school level when catching up suddenly becomes very difficult.

 

And if one begins homeschooling for high school in Michigan it is, for the most part, an all or nothing proposition because the PS's in general do not accept homeschool credits and to punish people for homeschooling to begin with, do not allow placement by exam. The exceptions are when they can get their hands on a homeschooler who has already taken the ACT or SAT once and had a score well above the school average. They will soften because they like to take students who will raise the average on a case by case basis depending on how fervent the parent is.

 

 

For those that won't or even make the average worse, the go to is "your student will be labeled special ed without any testing, just because, and will not be able to earn enough credits to graduate before aging out. We have adult education night classes. How about that?"

 

So catch up really does not happen locally by sending the child to high school. One needs to start that in 6th grade. But I find for the ones in that extreme camp, they do not recognize the deficits that young because they still buy into "anything I do is automatically better".

[Jean in Newcastle]

Absolutely.

 

What I see a lot and still bothers me is the notion that underprepared homeschoolers aren't a problem or are less of a problem *because* there also exist underprepared public schoolers. The failures within the public school system regardless of the causes do not in my view exempt homeschoolers from an obligation to try and do the best by their children. Basically I think that homeschoolers need to concern themselves with homeschooling in an honest and forthright manner and not maintain this wishful thinking that any homeschool is better than every public school. I think we both agree on this.

 

I agree as well and I like the fact that our state has some homeschool requirements instead being an absolutely no requirement state.  But do you think that the online schools or school run "homeschool" programs keep standards any better than homeschooling without them?  As you know, in our state we are supposed to have a portfolio review or have our kids take standardized tests from grade 3 and up.  But no one other than the parents looks at those reports/scores. It really depends on an honor system where the parents are supposed to have the best educational interest of their children at heart. 

[maize]

Yes.

 

And to this point when children attend PS the information is presented. Maybe the environment is total crap, maybe there are 50 kids on the classroom, maybe the rules are awful, etc. but algebra is actually presented. Shakespeare is presented. The five paragraph essay is presented. Real science books are handed out and somebody is teaching cell biology and Newton's laws.

 

There is something very wrong with the view of homeschooling - thankfully a small group of followers - that as long as the kids are working in the garden, keeping a diary, reading Little House on the Prairie, and watching PBS all is good.

 

No. Sorry. That is FAR less than the PS, even the bad ones, is providing.

 

I think this is the kind of thing many of us refer to as "not good enough" and especially at the middle and high school level when catching up suddenly becomes very difficult.

 

And if one begins homeschooling for high school in Michigan it is, for the most part, an all or nothing proposition because the PS's in general do not accept homeschool credits and to punish people for homeschooling to begin with, do not allow placement by exam. The exceptions are when they can get their hands on a homeschooler who has already taken the ACT or SAT once and had a score well above the school average. They will soften because they like to take students who will raise the average on a case by case basis depending on how fervent the parent is.

 

 

For those that won't or even make the average worse, the go to is "your student will be labeled special ed without any testing, just because, and will not be able to earn enough credits to graduate before aging out. We have adult education night classes. How about that?"

 

So catch up really does not happen locally by sending the child to high school. One needs to start that in 6th grade. But I find for the ones in that extreme camp, they do not recognize the deficits that young because they still buy into "anything I do is automatically better".

This kind of attitude from the public schools seems so counterproductive to me. Seems the goal of public educators should be to provide as good an education as possible to any child within their boundaries.

 

Our schools do work with homeschoolers. They don't generally give credit for homeschool transcripts (though I think there may be room for individual decision making) but credit by exam is possible and so is partial enrollment--my kid could take chemistry and geometry and choir at the public school and graduate with a homeschool diploma but with those public school credits.

 

Why not open the doors and welcome whoever wants to come?

 

Less antagonism and more cooperation on both sides, public school and homeschool, could go a long way.

[maize]

I agree as well and I like the fact that our state has some homeschool requirements instead being an absolutely no requirement state. But do you think that the online schools or school run "homeschool" programs keep standards any better than homeschooling without them? As you know, in our state we are supposed to have a portfolio review or have our kids take standardized tests from grade 3 and up. But no one other than the parents looks at those reports/scores. It really depends on an honor system where the parents are supposed to have the best educational interest of their children at heart.

They provide some degree at least of accountability.

 

Doesn't make a difference to parents who are on top of things anyway, but a lot of folks (I include myself) often perform better when we have to account to someone.

[maize]

Also, for many families the resources available through a virtual charter school make the difference between scrounging together a free and low cost education (can be done but requires intensive time and effort) and being able to afford curriculum, tutors, online classes, science kits, etc.

Edited January 19, 2017 by maize

[kiana]

And to this point when children attend PS the information is presented. Maybe the environment is total crap, maybe there are 50 kids on the classroom, maybe the rules are awful, etc. but algebra is actually presented. Shakespeare is presented. The five paragraph essay is presented. Real science books are handed out and somebody is teaching cell biology and Newton's laws.

 

Exactly. And this is the difference I was referring to.

 

I have had people come in from PS abysmally prepared. I've seen people with an act-composite of 15 but an over 3.0 high school GPA. But they'd at least *seen* algebra, and if they worked hard they were able to pass our remedial classes -- often on the second try after getting a D on the first try, but they were able to at least make a stab at it. 

[Guest]

This kind of attitude from the public schools seems so counterproductive to me. Seems the goal of public educators should be to provide as good an education as possible to any child within their boundaries.

 

Our schools do work with homeschoolers. They don't generally give credit for homeschool transcripts (though I think there may be room for individual decision making) but credit by exam is possible and so is partial enrollment--my kid could take chemistry and geometry and choir at the public school and graduate with a homeschool diploma but with those public school credits.

 

Why not open the doors and welcome whoever wants to come?

 

Less antagonism and more cooperation on both sides, public school and homeschool, could go a long way.

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, Texas is an "all or nothing" situation. Which really chaps my hide since (until recently) I pay school taxes -sometimes in TWO properties, not just one - and yet I can't utilize the public school at all as a homeschooling parent, not even for school sports or choir. Nothing.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Kinsa

[LucyStoner]

I agree as well and I like the fact that our state has some homeschool requirements instead being an absolutely no requirement state. But do you think that the online schools or school run "homeschool" programs keep standards any better than homeschooling without them? As you know, in our state we are supposed to have a portfolio review or have our kids take standardized tests from grade 3 and up. But no one other than the parents looks at those reports/scores. It really depends on an honor system where the parents are supposed to have the best educational interest of their children at heart.

In my experience, having homeschooled with and without PT enrollment in an ALE (what those public school programs for himeschoolers are in our state- "alternative learning environments"), being at an ALE can be very beneficial for some families. Most of them require meeting with a teacher monthly and I always found that to be helpful rather than intrusive. I've always taught what and how I wanted to. Also as I filed my monthly reports(which I am sure basically exist in the round filing cabinet), it was nice to be able to see where we were 3 and 6 months before. Obviously a parent can keep whatever records they like so it's not necessary to be in an ALE to get that. Still, it was beneficial for people who probably wouldn't keep such records on their own. The ones we have used though are staffed with at least some teachers who have extensive experience with homeschooling themselves. There was a lot of support and encouragement offered alongside the built in accountability. I imagine my experience would be different if the program staff didn't support or understand homeschooling.

 

Also, the homeschooling community at the ALE was and remains far more diverse economically and racially than the homeschooling community as a whole. When we were in a much reduced income, the ALE model made homeschooling more affordable. This is something that I especially value. It's a voluntary option and one I support maintaining.

 

I have no experience with online public schools so I can't really form much of an opinion there. Some sound good. Some sound like for profit scams.

 

ETA- several of the ALEs here have waiting lists to get in...I assume that if they were bad, people wouldn't be trying to get in.

Edited January 19, 2017 by LucyStoner

[happypamama]

That seems fine to me. But nope, I think a test on one day for hours is completely unfair. That offering is also only for students in 4th through 8th. So for high school I guess you can ask to do the Regents or test yourself. I am not opting to do the Regents because then I'd have to teach to the specifics of the test. If I do that I might as well send my kid to school.

Homeschool students should have the same rules for the tests as the public school kids, IMO.

 

We have the option to do the tests at the school for free, but it's every day for a couple of weeks. No, thanks. I'd rather pay and do the CAT online. One of my children liked to do it over about three sessions in two or three days, but my other preferred to sit down and bang it out and be done in one three hour session. Scored exceptionally well too, so obviously that approach worked for her.

[mom2scouts]

This is coming from a 16 year old boy who "knows everything" so take what he says with the teen boy filter...He talks before class and during group activities online with other homeschoolers and homeschool girls.  He's know a few irl.  He says he will never marry a homeschooled girl.  Trying to get what he's talking about, he basically sums it up that a lot of them he interacts with, have no personality.  They are sweet, kind, good with small children, and obey their parents, but have no "zing", no "fire", no "passion about anything".  Not all of these I'm assuming are from the quiver full movement, but some are.  Yes, I did bring up some exceptions with a small minority of other homeschool girls he knows, but the moms in these minorities usually have something that makes them less of a "sweet homeschooling mom". One of the girl's mom he knows races mini cars with her husband.  Nicely, he says his sister will never be like that because I guess I have some decent "zing" to me.  He says he will most likely marry someone a bit sarcastic just like me....NOOOOO!!!!

 

Haha! He hasn't met my homeschooled daughter! Her "zing", "fire", and "passion" may wear me out before my time. Her four older brothers say they know better than to mess with her. Of course she doesn't have a meek mother either.

[LucyStoner]

I recall discussing the ALE model with some anti-public school sorts of homeschoolers and they didn't understand why anyone would sign up for the ALE. Because reasons.

 

When many people pointed out that they liked the ALE for the free specialized classes (metalworking, art, wilderness awareness, foreign languages and stuff that is impossible to do solo like musical theater and robotics competition) the response from the anti-public school peeps was that everyone should just do what they do and sign up for private classes geared to homeschoolers. It didn't occur to them that some people don't have $500 for drama or $2800 for wilderness school. 🙄

[Barb_]

My sentiments exactly. Unfortunately, Texas is an "all or nothing" situation. Which really chaps my hide since (until recently) I pay school taxes -sometimes in TWO properties, not just one - and yet I can't utilize the public school at all as a homeschooling parent, not even for school sports or choir. Nothing.

 

Well to be fair, the little old lady down the street isn't able to utilize the public schools either.  Neither is the family who sends their kids to the Catholic school on the corner.  Taxes don't ensure access.

[Halftime Hope]

 Where do they go? Private tutors? Those cost money and someone who can't succeed in remedial classes probably isn't making the kind of money to afford them. GED classes? But they have a diploma. Self-education? Sure, but only practically attained by the extremely ambitious. 

 

Yep, GED classes.  In my suburb they are available through the public library literacy program for just the cost of the workbooks. Anyone can take them, including those who have a diploma.

 

[Guest]

Adult schools offer them too :)

[LucyStoner]

Well to be fair, the little old lady down the street isn't able to utilize the public schools either. Neither is the family who sends their kids to the Catholic school on the corner. Taxes don't ensure access.

Nor should they. Public schools are a public good even if one never uses them. Schools based only on user fees aren't public.

 

ETA- I do agree with Kinsa though- people should be able to access public school resources on a part time basis. In my state, homeschool students can and do. Electives, school sports, AP classes, Running Start etc.

Edited January 19, 2017 by LucyStoner

[maize]

Nor should they. Public schools are a public good even if one never uses them. Schools based only on user fees aren't public.

Unless you're in England...

 

;)

[snowbeltmom]

Well to be fair, the little old lady down the street isn't able to utilize the public schools either.  Neither is the family who sends their kids to the Catholic school on the corner.  Taxes don't ensure access.

 

Well, in my state, the little old lady down the street can't utilize the public schools, but the homeschooled student and the Catholic-schooled student can.  :001_smile:  

 

[LucyStoner]

Curious - on what basis do they obtain a waiver ?

 

Do the homeschool veterans get paid for providing the class ?

The homeschooling veterans who teach the class are self employed and keep whatever rate they set less their own expenses (room rent and materials if they choose to spend that money.) Like I said they are usually about $40-60.

 

The only time I have heard of a waiver was for a military family who was here temporarily. It's not uncommon for the class to be a sideline of someone who works as a homeschool consultant, offers testing and teaches other homeschool workshops for a fee.

 

The class is a one off seminar so anyone who sits there for the duration of the class meets the requirement, it's not something one can fail. I don't think it's an onerous requirement. I didn't go to the parent qualifying course because I had a degree but I have attended other workshops taught by someone who teaches them and I reckon her basic class is helpful because she is extremely knowledgeable and committed to empowering people to home school.

 

ETA- Most of the parent qualifying courses are taught as sponsored programs of various community and private colleges. One is taught in conjunction with the statewide homeschool convention. I reckon those instructors don't keep their entire fee, but they are paid.

Edited January 19, 2017 by LucyStoner

[LMD]

I just think that the automatic leap between abysmal homeschoolers to more regulations will fix it, is faulty.

 

I do not accept that a government department has the power to override my decisions without evidence.

 

What are the stats about homeschoolers in high vs low reg states? Here, the main difference is that less people bother to register in high reg states.

[Barb_]

 

Well, in my state, the little old lady down the street can't utilize the public schools, but the homeschooled student and the Catholic-schooled student can. :001_smile:

[/quote

That's nice for you :) I mean that in the kindness way and wish everyone had the same opportunities. But I do understand the the principle of fairness that underlies the exclusion of homeschooled and private schooled students. Sort of, "if you opt out, then you opt out."

[poppy]

I just think that the automatic leap between abysmal homeschoolers to more regulations will fix it, is faulty.

 

I do not accept that a government department has the power to override my decisions without evidence.

 

What are the stats about homeschoolers in high vs low reg states? Here, the main difference is that less people bother to register in high reg states.

 

There is absolutely no way for you to know that.

[Lady Florida.]

Well, in my state, the little old lady down the street can't utilize the public schools, but the homeschooled student and the Catholic-schooled student can.  :001_smile:  

 

 

In my state the homeschooled student can but the Catholic school student can't. Neither can the students who are being homeschooled under an umbrella school. Umbrella schools are considered private schools and private school students can't participate in public school activities.

[LucyStoner]

Both sides of the "will more regulation will lead to less abuse and neglect" debate are pretty much dealing with anecdote and hunches only. There's no concrete evidence to support either side. Most of the "data" pro-homeschooling groups point to is hopelessly flawed (with high performing homeschoolers opting in and no information on anyone else.)

 

For me, the rights of a child to an education trump the rights of the parents to raise "stay at home daughters" or not teach their children. Kids who are being abused and neglected are more important than my personal convenience. And the number of kids who are abused and neglected while homeschooling is not so small as to be insignificant. I'm tired of homeschoolers ignoring anyone with concerns about homeschooling.

[LucyStoner]

Let's get better stats and then make decisions around what regulations to impose on the majority of people already doing the right thing. If they actually do reduce neglect and abuse, they are likely to be worth it. If they don't, they're not.

 

That's not remotely the same as ignoring abuse or neglect.

Given that attempts to get better and unbiased stats are not feasible (self selected sampling and other issues), the "wait for more information" results in essentially ignoring the very real reports of abuse and neglect.

 

Action (or willful inaction) and outcome is greater than stated intent to not ignore abuse.

 

Homeschoolers Anonymous has tried to collect more data but their data has the exact same pitfalls as all the exclusively pro-homeschooling "data" and their stories are derided defensively by many homeschoolers. I've seen people denounce them as immature overgrown children on this very chat board. I've also seen people here point to laughbly biased sources of data to "prove" homeschool neglect is rare. My favorite is pointing to surveys of homeschooled college students. Until we can compare that to data from people who don't go to college or aren't allowed to leave their homes, that's not a full picture.

 

Homeschoolers are far from alone in our seeming tendency to prioritize parental rights and ignore child abuse. Still I remain ill at ease that many homeschoolers, on seeing reports of egregious neglect and abuse seek first to defend homeschooling with no oversight whatsoever above all else.

 

My views are probably colored by the fact that the first two homeschooling families l met when I was a child were both shockingly neglectful and, in one instance, exceedingly controlling. Long term outcomes for these peers of mine has been very bad. If these were very rare exceptions to the homeschoolers I have encountered since then or read about, I would perhaps be less keen on exploring any and all measures that might help. One family was in the conservative dominionist Christian patriarchy model and the other in the liberal hippie commune model.

 

I don't need data to prove to myself that children deserve far better than they often get. I don't claim to have "the" solution but I think what we have now is insuffient protection for children. I'm also not blind to the fact that efforts to protect kids can be horribly biased and risky. It's not an easy problem to solve but we won't help anyone waiting for data we can't really obtain.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wouldn't abuse and neglect be more the department of CPS whether they are homeschooled or not?

 

 

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[Rosie_0801]

Wouldn't abuse and neglect be more the department of CPS whether they are homeschooled or not?

 

 

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Yes, it is.

 

I got reported to them for homeschooling before my kids were even school age. And I'm pretty sure the person who did it was a lawyer. :lol:

[kiana]

Problem with "get better stats" is that you're not going to be able to get better stats without some kind of mandated participation in data collection. 

[FaithManor]

Wow Rosie! What a twerp of a lawyer!

 

In my experience Sadie, people across the board do not want to get involved - ie. report - when physical abuse is apparent, some not even for sex abuse - so kids who are being badly neglected educationally have pretty much no chance. The end.

 

I don't think this will change until education becomes a human right for children and the culture of parental rights above all else ends. But at the very least homeschoolers should say something to authorities when they see "homeschooling" used to prevent education from happening. I called last year about the ten year old in the community whose mother was claiming to homeschool but openly bragging about not actually doing it so he "won't question our church or pastor". She ended up on the wrong side of the truancy officer and had to put him in school. She was a member of HSLDA, and they reviewed the case then refused to defend her. So ya...when a fundie group like them says "Heck no! Guilty as charged!" That says it all.

 

At the least that kid has a chance. It is not a great chance, but better than nothing. I hope he really applies himself and gets out.

[Murphy101]

Absolutely.

 

What I see a lot and still bothers me is the notion that underprepared homeschoolers aren't a problem or are less of a problem *because* there also exist underprepared public schoolers. The failures within the public school system regardless of the causes do not in my view exempt homeschoolers from an obligation to try and do the best by their children. Basically I think that homeschoolers need to concern themselves with homeschooling in an honest and forthright manner and not maintain this wishful thinking that any homeschool is better than every public school. I think we both agree on this.

I agree with this. For me saying I'm not concerned is not so much that I literally don't care about our home school quality of education. It's saying that until and unless pubic schools can demonstrate that they can do better by the students they already have - I will not respect for nor vote for any move to have he same people lecture home schoolers about what we should be doing. It's not that I think bc of public school failure home schooling failures don't matter. I agree that's neither here nor there. It's that I flat out see no respectable reason to let the same blind mouse that is messing up our schools also be given permission to blindly lead home schoolers here. (And in my area there's no argument about that, it's not just me presuming bad evil public schools)

 

I'm willing to be held to similiar standards as public schools, but when the schools here can't even meet the ones they've got for over 50% of their students? They lose any credibility for lecturing anyone else about how to do things or be accountable.

[Murphy101]

And no. You can't presume algebra is at least being presented. In my state we have schools that literally has classes with no teacher and many of the classes being taught by a teacher with no degree and only a certificate. So technically the kids are registered in an algebra class but they don't have enough teachers and or enough math degreed teachers, so no algebra isn't actually being presented. The poor fumbling class babysitter trying teach a subject thy don't know and with little experience in teaching at all basicly shows them YouTube videos or tells them to use he textbooks mathlab. If the kid can't mostly figure things out on their own - they really don't get anything out of the class.

[LMD]

There is absolutely no way for you to know that.

Oh, yes there is.

 

Sorry, realised short and blunt sounds like snarky. We had a state inquiry into this very thing, we have data from other homeschool organisations about who/how many access their services. We may not know exactly but we can have some decent estimates, and they all put less onerous reg = higher compliance.

Edited January 19, 2017 by LMD

[LMD]

Wouldn't abuse and neglect be more the department of CPS whether they are homeschooled or not?

 

 

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Exactly.

[LMD]

So we just make decisions based on...no evidence at all ?

 

C'mon, that's not reasonable.

And arguing that they must provide evidence is holding them to the standard they proposed. From their own documents:

"To be adequate, a RIS must be logical, draw on relevant evidence, be transparent about any assumptions made and be proportionate to the proposal's expected effects."

[abba12]

MINECRAFT IS NOT A COMPLETE MATH AND ENGLISH CURRICULUM FOR GRADES 1-5!!!

 

kthxbye

 

Sorry.... I have been following these threads here and on gen ed this week, and then the facebook homeschooling community I made the mistake of joining in order to get a discount code had a thread, and.... *bashes head against wall*. I couldn't blast them all there, but, damnit, I had to say it to someone!!!

 

Carry on with your serious academic discussions.

[maize]

MINECRAFT IS NOT A COMPLETE MATH AND ENGLISH CURRICULUM FOR GRADES 1-5!!!

 

kthxbye

 

Sorry.... I have been following these threads here and on gen ed this week, and then the facebook homeschooling community I made the mistake of joining in order to get a discount code had a thread, and.... *bashes head against wall*. I couldn't blast them all there, but, damnit, I had to say it to someone!!!

 

Carry on with your serious academic discussions.

What!?!

 

Are you sure?

 

(my kids are doomed...)

 

:D

 

More seriously, you could try recommending Prodigy math for any game loving kids. It's been a huge hit at my house, I thought the interest would die out after a few weeks but we're coming up on a year and the kids still play. I wouldn't recommend it as an exclusive curriculum choice but it did keep my kids doing math most days when I was in survival mode early in this pregnancy.

[LMD]

MINECRAFT IS NOT A COMPLETE MATH AND ENGLISH CURRICULUM FOR GRADES 1-5!!!

 

kthxbye

 

Sorry.... I have been following these threads here and on gen ed this week, and then the facebook homeschooling community I made the mistake of joining in order to get a discount code had a thread, and.... *bashes head against wall*. I couldn't blast them all there, but, damnit, I had to say it to someone!!!

 

Carry on with your serious academic discussions.

And in a similar vein, 'apps across the curriculum' is not a substitute for actual teaching. And maybe 60 kids aged 5-8 in one classroom, with an iPad each, isn't a quality education standard?

 

Eta- I don't disagree with you, I've just never met someone who really thinks that about minecraft - but I don't Facebook, so I deliberately avoid the cuhrazy lol.

Edited January 19, 2017 by LMD

[poppy]

And in a similar vein, 'apps across the curriculum' is not a substitute for actual teaching. And maybe 60 kids aged 5-8 in one classroom, with an iPad each, isn't a quality education standard?

 

Eta- I don't disagree with you, I've just never met someone who really thinks that about minecraft - but I don't Facebook, so I deliberately avoid the cuhrazy lol.

iPads and apps are tools just like a book is a tool.... can be useful or completely useless. If it has more than mine craft on it , they're already ahead of some kids.

 

My kids both went to public 1st and enjoyed RazKids and BrainPOP. I still hear about it sometimes. "This is MLK weekend" "oh he is from altlanta actually. I learned that on BrainPOP".

 

They also had about 16 kids in the classroom each, though. 60 is obviously terrible. And I'd really bad for kids flung from that into educational neglect by their parents.

[abba12]

And in a similar vein, 'apps across the curriculum' is not a substitute for actual teaching. And maybe 60 kids aged 5-8 in one classroom, with an iPad each, isn't a quality education standard?

 

Eta- I don't disagree with you, I've just never met someone who really thinks that about minecraft - but I don't Facebook, so I deliberately avoid the cuhrazy lol.

 

PMed you

[Bluegoat]

 

Well, in my state, the little old lady down the street can't utilize the public schools, but the homeschooled student and the Catholic-schooled student can. :001_smile:

[/quote

That's nice for you :) I mean that in the kindness way and wish everyone had the same opportunities. But I do understand the the principle of fairness that underlies the exclusion of homeschooled and private schooled students. Sort of, "if you opt out, then you opt out."

 

I don't actually get how that is a principle.  I can accept that there might be practical reasons in some cases.

 

Here, they are talking about disallowing homeschooled kids from the school string and choir program, on principle it seems.  I cant see how this makes at sense.  It isn't disruptive because it isn't during class time.  It isn't using school services without them getting money for it.  Homeschoolers pay taxes to fund that program like everybody else.  So what principle is that "if you don't use our classrooms for everything you can't have any access to public education programs" - where is the logic in that?

[snowbeltmom]

I am not plugged in to my homeschooling community at all, so I don't know if the homeschooling climate is changing in my area.  (When we began almost a decade ago, every single homeschooling group I found required a statement of faith, so they were a definite no-go. )  However, I have been tutoring in my community for a few years now, and have noticed an increase over the past 18 months or so in inquiries from parents who have their kids in public school, but want to homeschool. 

 

Very few of these families understand what homeschooling entails.  I have had at least three different moms tell me that they couldn't possibly teach their child themselves and ask me how they would go about finding a teacher for their child. 

 

I think the ads put out by K-12 and Connections Academy also confuse a lot of parents.  While these companies don't say that their students are homeschooling, that is the impression many parents have after listening to their ads.  Some parents are shocked to discover that I was the one teaching my kids at home.

 

I tell these parents that homeschooling is a lot of work, and if your child does not listen to you, then the job is going to be much more difficult.  Of the phone calls I have received over the years, eight of the families decided to homeschool, but only three are still homeschooling now.  Two of the families are doing an excellent job.  The other family has really dropped the ball. (I see these children on a daily basis and can see what little is being done.  The parents think their kids are heading to the pro tour and that is where their focus lies.  Other non-homeschooling adults are also worried about these kids and ask me if they should report what is going on.  They are appalled when I tell them that they are in compliance with the state's homeschooling laws. (My state requires either standardized test scores or yearly evaluations.  However, it is very easy to find a homeschooling parent to provide a yearly evaluation that satisfies the state requirement.) 

 

I feel bad for these kids.  Their parents are really limiting their futures, but there is nothing that can be done and frankly, a big part of me feels it is not my place to tell another parent how to raise their kids.  These kids have a very good relationship with their parents and are happy, but they are not receiving an education.

 

 

[Bluegoat]

Problem with "get better stats" is that you're not going to be able to get better stats without some kind of mandated participation in data collection. 

 

Now, I think this is a very reasonable argument for asking homeschooled parents to provide some information. If you can't make good policy decisions without data, you need ways to get good data.