Fits over everything in School

[mamashark]

So my 3rd grade daughter (8yrs old) has decided that school is boring, and throws a fit about everything except for our literature study and Grammar (unless I give her a writing assignment related to the lesson). 

 

I can't get her to write neatly, and if I ask her to rewrite her work, it turns into an hour of sobbing hysterically while she labors at the writing, and in the end the handwriting is better but the spelling worse.  She is not willing to try anymore with her math. She falls apart when I mention her spelling, enjoyed our science experiment but only read the necessary related reading under duress. 

 

She wants to read or play all day. 

 

I'm so frustrated! When I enforce school, even when I sit and do it with her, we have more tears than anything else. I don't know what to do :( 

[Arcadia]

Type instead of write? That help my DS11 a lot

For math do verbally?

[mamashark]

Type instead of write? That help my DS11 a lot

For math do verbally?

Typing makes her cry too. Literaly, if I ask her to do anything related to school she throws a fit.

 

 

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[EKS]

How about sending her to school?

[mamashark]

How about sending her to school?

Yeah. Only that's not an option at the moment. If I put my foot down and get really strict about getting work done before any play, would that make a difference, I wonder?

 

 

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[MotherGoose]

3rd grade was hard for us too.  Has she ever been to brick and mortar school?  Mine have not, and I think they don't realize how good they have it.  The thing that has worked best for me is informing dear child that she's going to do work, whether or not she likes it, for a proscribed period.  And enforcing it.  So if you haven't done this amount of work, then no snacks, no TV, no playing with Daddy, no nothing.  I'm assuming that what you are giving her is abiilty-appropriate.  One thing I did with mine to avoid the "BUT I CANT DO IT" drama was to give her some worksheets--enough to make the task irritating, but not enough that even if she worked diligently it would take her hours--slightly below her abiility level so that I KNEW she could do the work without my help, and tell her she was staying in her room until she was done, and enforcing it with as little drama as possible.  It sounds like your dd likes drama.  So you put her in there with the worksheets and calmly tell her she can come out when she's done.  She tests you, you calmly say, let me see your work.  If not done, say no, complete them first, send back.  Rinse and repeat.  Then gradually move up to ability level work at moments of drama.  Homeschooling, like all schooling, is not always fun.  It requires work.  Your children do not have to like it all the time, and all activities do not have to be new and exciting.  Sometimes we just need to get them finished in the most efficient manner possible without bells, whistles, and cheerleading.  Some school subjects are analagous to cleaning the toilet:  necessary, but not exciting, and best if we just go ahead and get them done as efficiently as possible.  

 

Edit to clarify re worksheets:  for example, I'd give her 3 second grade math worksheets and a language arts one.  If she did them with a pleasant attitude, it would have taken her 15-30 mins.  If she decided to rejoin the rest of us I'd resume normal school with her.  If she pursued more drama, she'd stay in her room until she finished.  This was not normally something that lasted more than one day in succession.  

Edited August 20, 2016 by MotherGoose

[Wheres Toto]

I would definitely see if there's an underlying problem.  Maybe the curriculum is a really bad fit and she hates it?  My son was another one that benefited from typing or verbal responses.  His ability to do math, etc. far outpaced his ability to write answers.

 

That being said, my kids know that school is not optional. They can do it at home or they can do it at the B&M school but they will be doing it somewhere.  Neither has any desire to go to B&M school so that helps prevent complete avoidance at home.

 

ETA:  I do also require that school be completed before computer play time.  My kids LOVE the computer so that also helps.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Where's Toto?

[ktgrok]

Is there anything else going on? Does she struggle with doing what you say in other circumstances not related to school? Has she always had bad handwriting? I wouldn't make her redo work that was not neat...I have horrid handwriting no matter how hard I try. It was very demoralizing. 

 

Some online work maybe? Time 4 Learning? Something totally different? 

 

What math are you using?

[Elizabeth 2]

nm

Edited August 20, 2016 by Elizabeth 2

[HomeAgain]

Lots of questions!

 

Was it different last year?  Is this your first year?  How many kids do you have?  Do you have a routine?  Do you get started at the same time every day?

 

The easiest way I have found to deal with a balking child is to get a good routine going.  Breakfast, chores, school time.  We will meet at the couch/table/desk.  Here is the schedule for the day.  Please look at it.  There will be no tv until 4pm.  No video games during the week.  We will work for x amount of time before taking a break. 

 

Give small choices that can still get the work done: which order to do the subjects, which paper to do it on (or even whiteboard or paper), etc.  Poorly done work has the same lesson presented the next day, with encouraging a better effort.  Stay non-emotional as much as possible - if she gets a rise out of you the day is derailed no matter what.  And never underestimate the power of exercise!  If need be, start the day with a walk around the block to discuss the day's events and wake up a bit.

[OneStepAtATime]

If she is really struggling with writing and she can either focus on the formation of the letters or the spelling but not both at the same time she may have mild dysgraphia.  There are a lot of subsystems that go into the ability to write (in any subject).  If any of those systems break down it makes writing quite challenging.  Dysgraphia doesn't have to mean illegible handwriting.  It means that there is a glitch in one of the subsystems that makes writing hard, either in letter formation or putting thoughts to paper or whatever.  For many kids who struggle with this they don't know WHY and may subconsciously think they are stupid or incapable but frequently don't say that.  Instead, they melt down, they get angry, they claim boredom, etc. because they don't want to admit, even to themselves, that they are stupid (which they aren't).  

 

There could be other underlying issues as well that are causing her to glitch a bit.

 

Instead of making this a battle of wills that you may both lose, what about changing up your play book a bit?  

 

1.  Scribe for her for a while.  Let her dictate what she wants to say.  Spelling/grammar/letter formation can be worked on in short sessions separately from her other work.

 

2.  Scribe for her in math, too.

 

3.  Find something she really enjoys, a topic of strong interest to her, and spend some time each day exploring that topic together as a fun thing, with cuddles and interesting read alouds and maybe some games.

 

4.  Set her up with a typing program but make sure it does not penalize for time.  It can take a LOOOOOONG time for typing to become automatic.  The focus should be on proper finger placement and posture.  Don't make it a pressure thing, just a side thing she does for a short few minutes a day until she can type fluently.  Do not expect any output with typing until she has had a lot of practice (that could be weeks, months or even a year or more, but she has time).

 

5. Does she have any areas of outside interest, any skills that she is pursuing that you could put more focus on from an academic perspective?  Like, for example, if she loves horses and rides horses then read some biographies together on famous horses or do a science study on horse anatomy or something along those lines.

[Tiramisu]

I almost want to say back off from any criticism of her or her work.

 

Having messy handwriting is not a serous problem in the modern world, so I wouldn't create one.

 

Is it legible? I have a kid with writing that's not really legible but I choose not to criticize her (because I don't want to ruin what's good in it), but instead work on it through handwriting practice that's not associated with other school work at all.

 

If you have a kid with low frustration tolerance, pick and choose what's worth correcting. If she'll do math with you, then you can correct as you go so you don't have to correct. Or you can see what are repeated errors and choose those to work through together. Another option is to decide what's carelessness and let that go, and only have her correct things that will help understanding. But not everything and no recopying when she's in this state.

 

Another thing. There are genuine problems that cause the messy writing/good spelling vs. neat writing/bad spelling option. I'm thinking of lower working memory or ADHD with possibly related dysgraphia.

 

In any case, build her up. It's not her fault. Preserve your relationship.

[Loowit]

I think that the best place is to find out if there is an underlying problem (work too easy, too hard, learning difficulties, ...) or if it is just a kid who doesn't like school.  Also figure out if your expectations are appropriate to the child.  Maybe re-doing sloppy work isn't something to focus on at this time.

 

My middle child has dysgraphia and hates writing.  We do a lot of work orally, or I scribe for him, or I allow him to type.  This has been mostly successful for him.

 

My youngest has problems with anxiety and OCD that come out as defiant behavior, so I have to approach him totally differently.  With the help of his counselor we came up with the solution of waiting him out.  He gets 5 minute frustration breaks if he needs them where he can go and calm himself down with one of his coping strategies, but he doesn't get to play or be done for the day unless he has done his schoolwork.  I have to be pretty rigid with this child because it is the only thing that works.  I also find that if I show frustration he will be more likely to stay frustrated longer.  I try, but am not always successful, to stay nonchalant and matter of fact about the whole thing.  I keep a book at the table to read if he decides not to do his work.  It helps to keep me calm and not constantly on him to get done what he is supposed to be doing.  If I do constant reminders it just inflames the situation.  He also does much better with a constant routine.

[mamashark]

So many good comments and advice! Here's more info:

 

Is there anything else going on? Does she struggle with doing what you say in other circumstances not related to school? Has she always had bad handwriting? I wouldn't make her redo work that was not neat...I have horrid handwriting no matter how hard I try. It was very demoralizing. 

 

Some online work maybe? Time 4 Learning? Something totally different? 

 

What math are you using?

 

She is very obedient in other areas of life, and no, she's not always had bad handwriting. When she cares about her work, her handwriting is amazing. We are doing Beast Academy 3A - she was loving it and working hard on the problems until about a week ago. 

 

Lots of questions!

 

Was it different last year?  Is this your first year?  How many kids do you have?  Do you have a routine?  Do you get started at the same time every day?

 

The easiest way I have found to deal with a balking child is to get a good routine going.  Breakfast, chores, school time.  We will meet at the couch/table/desk.  Here is the schedule for the day.  Please look at it.  There will be no tv until 4pm.  No video games during the week.  We will work for x amount of time before taking a break. 

 

Give small choices that can still get the work done: which order to do the subjects, which paper to do it on (or even whiteboard or paper), etc.  Poorly done work has the same lesson presented the next day, with encouraging a better effort.  Stay non-emotional as much as possible - if she gets a rise out of you the day is derailed no matter what.  And never underestimate the power of exercise!  If need be, start the day with a walk around the block to discuss the day's events and wake up a bit.

 

Yes, it was mostly different last year. She's never really liked math. But our routine has changed a lot since DH has a new job and he's home a lot more. We don't get started the same time each day, and I have been really lax about the schedule because we're all adjusting to the new job, so that's probably the first thing that needs to change.

 

I almost want to say back off from any criticism of her or her work.

Having messy handwriting is not a serous problem in the modern world, so I wouldn't create one.

Is it legible? I have a kid with writing that's not really legible but I choose not to criticize her (because I don't want to ruin what's good in it), but instead work on it through handwriting practice that's not associated with other school work at all.

If you have a kid with low frustration tolerance, pick and choose what's worth correcting. If she'll do math with you, then you can correct as you go so you don't have to correct. Or you can see what are repeated errors and choose those to work through together. Another option is to decide what's carelessness and let that go, and only have her correct things that will help understanding. But not everything and no recopying when she's in this state.

Another thing. There are genuine problems that cause the messy writing/good spelling vs. neat writing/bad spelling option. I'm thinking of lower working memory or ADHD with possibly related dysgraphia.

In any case, build her up. It's not her fault. Preserve your relationship.

She has been diagnosed with ADHD, but treat it with OT and a sensory diet (been successfully doing this for a full year). This makes routine difficult a lot of the time because she has always had the freedom to tell me what she needs and I've always given her the freedom to meet her sensory needs however she asks (within reason - and a lot of time its her saying "I need sensory!" and I help her find a way to fill her need). This isn't sensory, though, it's attitude. It's new, it's different. It's almost like it's hormonal. 

[Tiramisu]

So many good comments and advice! Here's more info:

 

 

She is very obedient in other areas of life, and no, she's not always had bad handwriting. When she cares about her work, her handwriting is amazing. We are doing Beast Academy 3A - she was loving it and working hard on the problems until about a week ago.

 

 

Yes, it was mostly different last year. She's never really liked math. But our routine has changed a lot since DH has a new job and he's home a lot more. We don't get started the same time each day, and I have been really lax about the schedule because we're all adjusting to the new job, so that's probably the first thing that needs to change.

 

She has been diagnosed with ADHD, but treat it with OT and a sensory diet (been successfully doing this for a full year). This makes routine difficult a lot of the time because she has always had the freedom to tell me what she needs and I've always given her the freedom to meet her sensory needs however she asks (within reason - and a lot of time its her saying "I need sensory!" and I help her find a way to fill her need). This isn't sensory, though, it's attitude. It's new, it's different. It's almost like it's hormonal.

 

I think with the change in routine with your DH home, it could really be an adjustment. Even if it's good, it's different. Distracting maybe. We have a hard time working when DH is home, too!

 

The other thing is that around third and forth grade, work gets more challenging. It's very common for kids with ADHD to feel more frustration.

 

My 8 yos were always tough. I had four 8 yo girls. I think it's hormones just starting to get going. My kids were never mouthy, then bam!

 

I think it's awesome that you are doing OT to deal with the ADHD ands sensory stuff. I wish I had done more of that earlier on.

[EKS]

Yeah. Only that's not an option at the moment. If I put my foot down and get really strict about getting work done before any play, would that make a difference, I wonder?

 

I apologize.  My previous response was completely unhelpful especially given that this is a homeschooling board!

 

My younger son had issues on and off like this.  When it got really bad when he was about 7 or 8, I took his screens away for a month.  I told him that he had to stop it with the histrionics during that month and only then would we see about him getting the screens back.  After a day or two he was behaving pretty much perfectly and it lasted for a good long time.  In fact, he never was as bad as he had been before the "intervention."  

 

In our case, I was pretty sure that his issue was just attitude.  If there is any chance there is more going on (dysgraphia or something else), I'd pursue that before doing something like I did.

Edited August 20, 2016 by EKS

[Arcadia]

Routine was a security blanket for my oldest. We actually had a timetable printed and stuck to his wardrobe door. He gets all sorts of cranky when we didn't give clear guidelines/expectations.

My youngest has weaker executive function skills so having a fixed routine help him be more productive.

 

Once a routine is re-established, her ability to cope with hormonal swings might get better.

[Junie]

No advice for you, but hugs of support.  I think that our 8-year-old girls must be twins separated at birth.  ;)   :svengo:

[City Mouse]

What about a behavior/reward chart?

[mamashark]

What about a behavior/reward chart?

 

Well, we are finishing up this week's work today because I'm not giving her a full weekend off after how little we accomplished this week... and I'm bribing her with m&ms. I'm putting several on the table and told her I will throw away one each time she throws a fit. When she's done with the subject, she can eat whatever is left on the table. So far she's finished Grammar, Spelling, and History and I've thrown away no M&Ms yet... an improvement but we haven't gotten to math yet so I'm not holding my breath! 

[Aurelia]

It's probably partly hormonal. My DD started doing the same thing around that age. Consistency helped, and any lesson that didn't get done was moved to the next day, but all unfinished work for the week had to be done on the weekend before she could do anything fun (I made sure this was a consistent consequence). She did NOT like having to do several days of math lessons because she had fallen behind.

 

We still do something similar, but without the attitude most of the time. DD will say she doesn't feel like doing school on a certain day, and I'll say "ok, but you'll have to get it done this weekend." (I have a caveat that she MUST do her makeup work without an attitude or she loses the privilege.) She does it, either then, or at bedtime another night (some nights she's not sleepy at "bedtime" so she's allowed to stay up until she is, as long as she stays in bed). Some nights she'll even do several days worth of work this way, so she can multiple days off.

[StartingOver]

When I took on the job of educating my kids, and it is a job. I determined that they need to understand that it isn't optional. They do get to make choices as in what and when they want to do work. But work must be done every day. It just isn't an option. No work, no play. No electronics. Nothing. Life, can be easy or hard. But my job must be done. period.

[Junie]

Well, we are finishing up this week's work today because I'm not giving her a full weekend off after how little we accomplished this week... and I'm bribing her with m&ms. I'm putting several on the table and told her I will throw away one each time she throws a fit. When she's done with the subject, she can eat whatever is left on the table. So far she's finished Grammar, Spelling, and History and I've thrown away no M&Ms yet... an improvement but we haven't gotten to math yet so I'm not holding my breath! 

 

I may or may not have done something similar.  I may or may not have eaten the candy in front of the stunned dc.   :leaving:

[theelfqueen]

Hmm m&m bribery sounds tempting lol

 

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[mamashark]

Hmm m&m bribery sounds tempting lol

 

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Well it worked today! I gave one m&m to dad and it was the fastest attitude turn around I've ever seen.

 

 

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[Lori D.]

:grouphug:  It is SO hard to weed through all the possible causes to figure out the fix. So many great thoughts from the previous posters. I'll just throw a few more ideas into the pot. ;)

 

For our DS with some ADD and mild LDs, when he had a math melt-down, it was often due to overload and not having the tools to cope -- so it manifested as anger. Breaking the work into shorter bites helped him stay focused and have focus, because we didn't try to go longer than what he had in the gas tank. So 20 min. of math, then a quick 5 minute physical exercise, then back to 15-20 minutes to finish the math, OR, switch to completely other subject and do the second "bite" of math later in the day.

 

Sometimes shifting the struggle subject to the very END of the day helps, as the struggling student has only so much brain battery energy for the day, and if you use it all up right off the bat on the struggle subject, you get nothing but tears and melt-downs for the rest of the day because the student doesn't have anything left, even for non-struggle subjects. By saving the struggle subject until the end -- and make it very clear that is the LAST school thing for the day -- the student doesn't feel like they have to hold back their remaining brain battery energy, knowing they are all done for the day after that struggle subject.

 

If this is more of a hormonal thing:

 

- protein snack

nuts or a trail mix; cheese stick, or cheese and crackers; yogurt dip and veggies; lunchmeat roll-up; etc.; provide a quality protein snack an hour or so after breakfast, and again an hour or so after lunch -- keep that blood sugar level, and keep that growing body and brain fed with a constant source of energy, and help prevent blood sugar slumps which lead to melt-downs -- protein snacks were a huge help here

 

- rigorous exercise

start the day with physical activity, and have short bursts of running, jump roping, trampoline jumping, etc., between "seat work" activities -- also very helpful here, as it helped DS release stress and mentally change gears so he wasn't going into the next subject already carrying a load of frustration or stress from the previous subject, which would put him on a hair-trigger for melt-downs

 

- rest

taking a quiet break mid-morning for about 20 minutes of laying down and power-napping, meditating, doing gentle stretching yoga, or sitting quietly and just flipping through a highly-illustrated magazine or book with some instrumental music in the background -- not doing anything strenuous brain-wise for about 20 minutes can help re-charge the brain a bit; and definitely do a 30-60 everyone quiet time after lunch for everyone's mental health ;)

 

 

:grouphug: Hope you quickly find what helps the best! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[ktgrok]

make sure she's getting consistent sleep and meals on time. Maybe with dad's new schedule those have shifted a bit?

 

Aso, does she get attention from Dad when she's acting like this? Does she think she has a new, more attentive audience? Or does she maybe just want to have fun with Dad, rather than do work? Is she truly understanding he's working, and it isn't family time? or, is Dad wandering around, being distracting, while she's trying to work? If so, stop him. 

 

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Yeah. Only that's not an option at the moment. If I put my foot down and get really strict about getting work done before any play, would that make a difference, I wonder?

 

 

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I'd like to preface by saying I don't have experience with ADHD.  Having said that, here's my two cents:

 

- Routine, from what I have seen, is beneficial to ALL kids.  So is consistency.  So yes, I do think making a rule and sticking to it is really important.  I know I have one child who, if an exception to a rule is made ONCE, will struggle to follow that rule without whining/bargaining/arguing for weeks, literally.  She simply cannot handle exceptions to rules.  This is difficult, because her other siblings do not struggle with exceptions.  So it's something I really work on with her.  

 

- The problem might be materials, teaching technique, atmosphere, or it might be "character" in the sense that she needs gentle coaching to improve her behavior and gain those traits we want for our children- hard working, patience, perseverance, etc.  If you haven't already, I would absolutely switch to praising effort over results:  "I can see you made some real effort in the first half of this math sheet.  Some of these problems were really hard, and I see you tried number 6 two different ways trying to get an answer."  (As opposed to "Why did you stop half way through?  Number 6 is wrong and you scribbled out all your work!")  (Not saying you do this, but mentioning it in case it's helpful to you)

 

- I would stay right next to her while she works, but maybe bring your own work to the table (grocery list, bills to pay, whatever paperwork you might have.  Or work your way through an algebra text or Latin or another subject you'd like to know more about... all where she can see you)

 

- Consider regularly scheduled sensory breaks throughout the school day.  Put them on the schedule and try to meet her sensory needs before she feels overloaded and in dire need.  My kids don't have SN, but we do pull out at least one sensory item a couple times throughout the school day.  The little ones play with it a lot, and the big ones get 5-10 minutes between subjects as time permits, and often it really refreshes them.  We do rice box, kinetic sand, finger paint, polymer clay, silly putty, boats (lego boats in the filled bathroom sink), loud music/dance party break, and cooking/baking.  We also do what we all call "the apple break".  Once everyone has done math, which means we're about half way through the morning routine, I slice up a few apples and everyone can just munch apples for a few minutes.  

 

- A visual checklist, so she knows what's left and that yes, she will be set free at some point, can be really helpful.  

 

- If she loves reading, do try to have a literary focus- look into Bravewriter Lifestyle if you haven't already heard of it.  Our homeschool is definitely literary oriented as opposed to history or STEm oriented.  So much about books can be done through discussion.  My dd loved doing the Fairy Tale project from Bravewriter Jot It Down, and it was a pretty painless introduction to written narration for her.  Although your dd is towards the higher end of the age level for Jot It Down, I would worry much less about age/grade and much more about whether or not the material sparks interest.  

 

- As PP have mentioned, I would limit all screens and sugar for a kid who is regularly melting down emotionally.  Lower the brain stimulation from these sources, but be sure to get as much outdoor time in as possible.  

 

Good luck!

[CAtoVA]

I pretty much could have written the OP about my own lovely 8 yo DD this year......

 

She does not have any learning disabilities, ADHD or sensory issues, just a lot of tears, fits, whining and moping when asked to do pretty much anything school-related especially if it involves math or writing. While she has always been prone to drama, it has definitely ramped up this year so maybe a hormonal thing. It does not help that her 5 yo sister is academically advanced, loves to work and works quickly and accurately. Jealousy does not improve her attitude : (.

 

I was tearing my hair out and worrying about maybe having to send her to a B & M school for the first time when I decided to look through some older posts here on the WTM Forum. I found some ideas that appear to be helping although only time will tell if they will work in the long run:

 

First, I made a checklist of daily school tasks that I run off every day for my DD (I loop some subjects/curricula so some items change daily).  She enjoys getting to pick the order of her subjects/assignments and also checking off items as she completes them. I get less push back when I ask, "So, what would you like to do next?" For the times I need to work individually with my younger my 8 yo is more understanding and less jealous if she already has had a lot of say in regard to when other school tasks may be done.

 

I use both the "carrot" and the "stick" simultaneously. My DD has a "check" system for the "stick": She gets one warning "check" if her behavior is veering into unacceptable territory. If she gets a second check she is cut down to only 30 minutes of family together time in the evening after dinner (something she loves). After 30 minutes she will be sent to her bedroom while everybody else stays together having fun (playing with the dog, playing a family board game, watching a TV show or movie, etc.) If she gets a third check she will have no family together time in the evening—she just has to stay in her room alone while everybody else enjoys each other. Since we started this system she has never had more than one check per day—the warning check. It starts over every day.

 

For the "carrot" I use a token system like many special education teachers apparently use. I found a free princess token board download on Teachers Pay Teachers and laminated it. It basically is a picture of a princess and says "The Princess is working for...." There is a box where she drew a picture of her desired reward. Underneath is a ten square frame grid. Each square stands for one day. There are square "thumbs up" pieces that fit inside each of the grid squares. For every day that she finishes all her work without having even one "check" she gets a thumbs up token. When the board is full she gets her reward. The rewards are small, like a Chik Filet milk shake, a trip to the dollar store, etc. Currently she is working for a small package of marbles and is soooo excited over this which is great.

 

So, we'll see how these strategies work. With my DD it definitely is a character/behavior issue possibly exacerbated by hormones. I don't know if they would work well if she had some serious learning or other issues. I also make sure my DD gets rest, a good breakfast and lunch and snacks. Both my girls take activity breaks but I am going to buy a small trampoline to assist in this area. I don't know if my DD will ever "like" school like her sister does but I told her I expect her to do her work with a respectful, pleasant attitude and with diligence. School is just not optional in our house.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by chiefcookandbottlewasher

[El...]

I was such a pill in 3rd grade that my mom sent me to public school in 4th.  (I have absolutely no neurological excuse for it, either.)  We lasted there for 2 weeks, and then she found another option. 

 

Dd is 8, almost 9, and this was a tough year for her, I think due to hormones and really fast growth.  I have to watch out that she's eating enough, because when she gets hungry, she melts down. 

 

Perhaps there are other factors playing into your situation, but maybe knowing that some of it is normal for the age and managing some of it with diet, fresh air and sleep will take the edge off!

[freelylearned]

So my 3rd grade daughter (8yrs old) has decided that school is boring, and throws a fit about everything except for our literature study and Grammar (unless I give her a writing assignment related to the lesson). 

 

I can't get her to write neatly, and if I ask her to rewrite her work, it turns into an hour of sobbing hysterically while she labors at the writing, and in the end the handwriting is better but the spelling worse.  She is not willing to try anymore with her math. She falls apart when I mention her spelling, enjoyed our science experiment but only read the necessary related reading under duress. 

 

She wants to read or play all day. 

 

I'm so frustrated! When I enforce school, even when I sit and do it with her, we have more tears than anything else. I don't know what to do :(

 

I don't know what curriculum you have, but your daughter may do well with something that is literature based and/or Charlotte Mason inspired. If you're curriculum is workbook based, she could be frustrated with that, even if they seem totally doable to you. A switch to a curriculum that requires more reading, oral narrations, and discussions may be a welcome change for her, in addition to being more challenging. Boring is sometimes code for too easy. This is a good article on focusing on your child's strengths.

 

As far as handwriting, It's OK at that age to expect neat handwriting on copywork and thank you notes to grandma, and then relax on the rest. Eventually that focused copywork practice will build muscle memory and the rest of her handwriting eventually follow. Check into dysgraphia, too. Some hand and core strengthening exercises may do wonders for her writing endurance.

 

Math just has it's hard sections. We have meltdowns with math, too. Our meltdowns always have something to do with division, so I sometimes skip ahead to the next topic, especially if it is something different like geometry, finish that unit and then go back and finish the unit that was giving us so much trouble. A little time off makes a difference. It's hard to learn when totally frustrated.

 

If she just wants to read and play, you can also schedule in breaks and time to read throughout her lessons. For example:

Grammar worksheet, 20 minutes reading on a science topic, 10 minute break

Math assignment, 20 minutes free reading, 10 minute break

Spelling lesson, 20 minutes reading from a history book, 10 minute break

and so on...

 

It might be reassuring to see on her schedule that once math is done, she gets 20 minutes of free reading.

 

Fourth grade was hard for us. My son was not doing well in public schools, so in fourth grade we decided to homeschool. It took a lot of tears and frustration and trail and error (Mostly error) for me to realize that what he needed to thrive was just a tiny bit grammar and spelling (he's a natural), a little history and science every day because he was really craving knowledge, free choices in what literature he read, a math program with a hands on component, a challenging writing program, and stacks of sketchbooks and composition books for him to draw and write stories.

[PeterPan]

So many good comments and advice! Here's more info:

 

 

She is very obedient in other areas of life, and no, she's not always had bad handwriting. When she cares about her work, her handwriting is amazing. We are doing Beast Academy 3A - she was loving it and working hard on the problems until about a week ago. 

 

 

Yes, it was mostly different last year. She's never really liked math. But our routine has changed a lot since DH has a new job and he's home a lot more. We don't get started the same time each day, and I have been really lax about the schedule because we're all adjusting to the new job, so that's probably the first thing that needs to change.

 

She has been diagnosed with ADHD, but treat it with OT and a sensory diet (been successfully doing this for a full year). This makes routine difficult a lot of the time because she has always had the freedom to tell me what she needs and I've always given her the freedom to meet her sensory needs however she asks (within reason - and a lot of time its her saying "I need sensory!" and I help her find a way to fill her need). This isn't sensory, though, it's attitude. It's new, it's different. It's almost like it's hormonal. 

 

You'll pardon me, I hope, while I chuckle a little here.  I'm playing the old card, so here my bones groaning.   :D  As I was reading your handwriting woes, how it's fine and then turns to a wreck, how she's digging in, etc., it reminded me of my dd for a few years (yes, years, not to scare you, lol), and yes she's diagnosed ADHD with sensory issues.   :)  Why am I laughing?  Maybe because you have to laugh or cry, lol.  In the moment, she seemed like a very hard child to teach.  Now she's going into her senior year and I see how things turned out.  She was actually a comparatively easy child, just very bright, very much needing to be worked with.

 

So let's back up.  One, you can come to LC, talk ADHD, spill everything that's going on.  You can share that here too, but I'm just saying feel free to come over.   :)  Two, do you have a ped diagnosis of the ADHD or full psych eval?  Have you reread it recently to see if anything jumps out at you?  With my dd, I read that report over and over and over.  If you have one, I would encourage you to.  You may piece together some things you're seeing from her with the data or comments in the report.  For instance, my dd turned out to have wicked low processing speed.  That processing speed explained her responses to things and also the flow of our day, why some arrangements worked and some didn't.  

 

Yes, if you have a dc with ADHD and have radically changed things up and lost your consistency and structure, I think you have part of your explanation.  I'm really not of the make them do worksheets camp.  Of course, my dd was not a worksheet person but a DOER.  What kind of person is your dd?  I think it's really smart to sit down and think about this and observe this.  My dd was doing, in 1st grade, the SAME THINGS she does now.  I kid you not.  She was a doer then, sewing, crafting, making events happen, that's STILL what she does.  She's trying to apply to a conservatory for costume design.  She was SHOWING US then what she was, and we were either gonna roll with it or fight it.

 

Pudewa has this saying he makes at conventions that totally changed my life, my approach to parenting and education.  I always get it wrong, and I think even he got it from somewhere else.  Anyways, the jist is: Kids will do what they can do. They want to do what they can do well.--In other words, even though I'm butchering it, to succeed at this I would STRONGLY suggest looking at the entire thing in a positive way.  If you set it up to be oppositional, you're going to get all the oppositional you set her up for.  She has told you, flat out, upfront, what she's able to do WELL, and she's asking to do it more.  Do you realize how astonishing that is?  It's really quite insightful about herself, about people, that she can do that.  I would encourage you to LISTEN to it.  You could read Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides.  Oh, I know it says dyslexia.  Read it anyways, because you'll *probably* find your dd in one of those profiles.  You need some encouragement, some permission, some recognition that it's ok to roll with her strengths.  You are?  What does she do well at?  How are you using those strengths to weave in the other things you need to have happen?

 

Fwiw, you could also be seeing hormones and the full moon.  By 4th grade my dd wanted to be independent but couldn't be.  It's really tricky with ADHD, to provide engagement, support, and deal with the impulsive zing zinginess of their energy!  And the full moon we just got through was VICIOUS.  Just watch.  Maybe some of it will literally just die down.

 

My dd woke up every day, for years and years, asking me what we were going to do that day.  I kid you not.  I'm like, hello, it's Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thurs, Fri, and we do school EVERY DAY, without exception, without confusion.  Nope, in her mind she was waking up for ADVENTURE and hoping it had changed!  And then, by like 7th/8th grade, when she finally decided we really were going to do school every day, then she asked if she HAD to.   :lol:

 

My dd's ADHD is inattentive, so for her, she wakes up VERY slowly.  She requested, and was granted, 1-2 hours, ending at her discretion, every morning to read alone.  If your dd rises slowly, I would encourage you to consider this.  I think it was another old timer on the boards here who mentioned doing this.  It seemed sort of indulgent, but it's actually physically beneficial to her.  It taught her how to recognize her own body and how to self-regulate.  My dd had OT for her sensory.  Her type of responses are totally different from ds'.  Dd's sensory is avoiding and over-reacting, so she needs a lot of peace, needs things to slow down, needs a quiet room and calm.  Ds' sensory is heavily sensory-seeking, so he needs more, more, more.  So anyways, when we give them time to read, to listen to their bodies, we're reinforcing the value of self-regulation.  And actually discuss it that way, kwim?  Ask her how she feels at various times, when reading is most beneficial to her, etc.  Have you read Zones of Regulation yet?  It would be beneficial to you.  

 

Another thing you can do to help her is mindfulness.  There's a really good cd Sitting Like a Frog that you can get (with the book) from the library.  Even just a few minutes of mindfulness bumps EF (executive function, which includes emotional regulation) by 30%!!!  So think about what could happen if she did some mindfulness at night before bed and some in the morning.  It would just instantly put her in this more calm, regulated place.  And even my really active, over the top ds benefits from the cd and his passive participation, so I wouldn't worry about whether she's doing it perfectly or anything.  Just go in, tuck her in, turn it on for 10 minutes, stay there and listen with her (to make sure she doesn't turn it off or get silly), done.  

 

Is this thing with your dh being home a permanent thing?  That's going to be very distracting.  Does your dd have an office?  Is she an introvert or extrovert?  Both my kids have offices now.  They just function SO much better with the structure.  You can pair the office (converted bedroom, corner of living room, whatever) with good things.  Both my kids have cozy reading areas, things for sensory, etc. in their offices.  For my dd it's dark colors and lights strung around the ceiling and soft, enclosing moon chairs and pillows.  She also plays music.  For ds, it's soft carpets, pillows, and little nooks to burrow in.  

 

To pair the office and good things, you're going to redefine school.  School is now all the awesome things we want to do together, and those happen in the office space.  And do things SHE wants to do together, and call them school!  I told you my dd was such a pill about what the plan was.  With my ds, I have a small weekly whiteboard calendar.  It's like $6 at Walmart and it shows the days of the week.  Every Sunday night we sit down and write out the plan.  And I actually write on it Mom School for the portions of the days where we're doing Mom School.  That means he's doing stuff with me.  He has lots of therapy sessions, classes, etc.  This way he doesn't have to be uncertain of the plan or have anxiety about it.  ADHD kids are prone to anxiety, so increasing structure and making the plan clear is a strategy to reduce anxiety.  It's not even saying you can't roll with their choices!  It's just letting them know what the plan is for the week.  To me, the plan says Mom School, but that just means we work together.  Within that structure, we can be very flexible and have a lot of choice!

 

Since she likes literature, are you using literature-based history?  I did with my dd.  She's intending to minor in history, so something I did must have worked, lol.  It's really ironic, because I'm seriously history-phobic and a history-hater.  I think I'm one of the few resident history haters on the board.   :hurray:   I just think it's really important to roll with their interests and the angle they approach life and topics with.  My dd was all about the narrative, the connections, the people whys.  She STILL likes the narratives and the people whys.  It's why she's so good at costuming, because costumes are an artistic expression of the story and the things inside the person.  I tell her she should study psychology and make $220 an hour, not be a costumer, hahaha.  Anyways, you can learn more about that in that Dyslexic Advantage book I recommended to you.  Whatever her angle is, approach history, science, etc. that way.  DON'T buy into this idea that history is genderless and has to be taught a certain way.  History is an infinite fractal, and you could approach it ANY WAY SHE WANTS and be valid.  Read SWB's WEM, that's the WHOLE POINT of the book.  You DO NOT have to ram her through curriculum.  You can take her niche, what fascinates her, and just go through things that way.  I've even done that for high school science.  Don't be afraid to do that.

 

Well there's plenty more in your thread to talk through.  If you want to talk spelling and science reading, do you have test scores?  You'll want to make sure there's not actually something going on there.  Reading anything she's *not engaged with* will be a challenge because of the ADHD.  I'm not saying you shouldn't do it, just that it can be the ADHD, meaning it's going to need some more strategies.  Not engaged with essential means not attending, not turning on the brain power.  So she can read the whole thing and not really have read it.  On the spelling, well that was wicked for us.  ADHD makes it crunchy, but dd also turned out to have convergence issues that had tanked her visual memory.  We did VT and improved that.  I always think a vision exam is wise, but look at your data, see what you've got so far.  My dd started having headaches with school work, was struggling to catch balls, etc., so vision was an obvious explanation.

 

Well keep talking and keep letting people help you.  I would encourage you NOT to do worksheets if she's not a worksheet person, NOT to keep reading short if she's a reader, and YES to increase structure, clear expectations, limited distraction working environment, and limited but increasing independent work.  Yes to passions, more passions.  If she likes to play, PLAY MORE!  What is the problem there?  There is no problem.  I just spent HOURS over several DAYS playing Twelfth Night (Shakespeare) with my ds.  That's play!  You can do play and call it school.  We read the Coville version, made clothespin/felt puppets, acted it out, saved quotes, and we'll probably watch some movie versions later.  Play is GOOD!  She's 8.  Most of her school can be play.  You can play for spelling, play for history and science and literature.  Play increases working memory and attention.  Play can reinforce math.  How are her math facts?  Absolutely play!  Roll with her.  You can have structure AND roll with her.  It IS possible.

Edited August 22, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[mamamoose]

I have not read through these but real quick, I would suspect something underlying as wel. My ds is dyslexic, dysgraphic and has ADHD, which is a LOT, and every day is painful. But...we do school and there are no fun things until after its done. Period.

[mamashark]

I tried reading this before I had my coffee this morning, didn't work out so well! lol. I snipped a couple things to respond to here, but thank you for your indepth comments, it is a lot to think through along with the other comments on this thread and I appreciate everyone's time and energy to respond!

 

Two, do you have a ped diagnosis of the ADHD or full psych eval?  Have you reread it recently to see if anything jumps out at you?  

 

My psych eval was pathetic. We paid for a full one and got a "diagnosis" but no full psych eval for me to read and digest like I've seen others comment about. Unfortunately it was the psych recommended by the ped. and I don't have the money for a second one. So while yes, I have an official diagnosis from a psych, I don't have much helpful info there.

 

What kind of person is your dd?  I think it's really smart to sit down and think about this and observe this.  

 

I really need to mull this one over. I've not been able to find anything that she'll dig into over the years. I want to find that 'in' to her brain and be able to really tap that potential. Lately (like in the past 3 months) she's gotten into several book series (Little House, and a couple mystery series), but that's the first thing that she's shown any passion for. Must think on this more.

 

You could read Dyslexic Advantage by the Eides.  Oh, I know it says dyslexia.  Read it anyways, because you'll *probably* find your dd in one of those profiles.  You need some encouragement, some permission, some recognition that it's ok to roll with her strengths.  You are?  What does she do well at?  How are you using those strengths to weave in the other things you need to have happen?

 

This is what I need to think through. I'm taking notes...

 

Have you read Zones of Regulation yet?  It would be beneficial to you.  

 

Yes, I have! But it's been a while, I need to reread it.

 

Another thing you can do to help her is mindfulness.  There's a really good cd Sitting Like a Frog that you can get (with the book) from the library.

 

Going to look into this - love this idea!

 

 

 

Since she likes literature, are you using literature-based history?

 

We do a lot of literature-based learning, yes. I also make sure to include lots of discussion-based learning because she thrives on that as well.

 

You can take her niche, what fascinates her, and just go through things that way.  I've even done that for high school science.  Don't be afraid to do that.

 

I have done this some but I do need to do it more. As a previous public school teacher I've come out of that "box" a ways, but I still find my feet in the box sometimes and need to reevaluate and improve.

 

If you want to talk spelling and science reading, do you have test scores?  You'll want to make sure there's not actually something going on there...  I always think a vision exam is wise, but look at your data, see what you've got so far.  My dd started having headaches with school work, was struggling to catch balls, etc., so vision was an obvious explanation.

 

 The psych eval did not include academic testing, just IQ and a couple specific ADHD related evals.  :toetap05: That said, I've had someone else put a bug in my ear about convergence issues. She never complains about headaches, though, and a basic eye evaluation (not one to catch issues other than the need for glasses) was good. 

 

When she engages in her work, her abilities astound me and she makes huge academic leaps. Not saying that rules out a problem, but it is a part of her.

 

Play is GOOD!  She's 8.  Most of her school can be play.  You can play for spelling, play for history and science and literature.  Play increases working memory and attention.  Play can reinforce math.  How are her math facts?  Absolutely play!  Roll with her.  You can have structure AND roll with her.  It IS possible.

 

We practice math facts all the time with play - she's pretty solid with addition and subtraction, we're just starting to get into multiplication. 

 

Also, for what it's worth, I'm seeing a huge improvement in her behavior today. Saturday was fairly good, I started this week with some nice structure, gave her specifically what to expect, with breaks built in, and she responded really well. Keeping my fingers crossed that it was just the full moon, but keeping everything I'm learning here in mind and hoping to improve my teaching/play/learning as well!

 

[importswim]

Hmm m&m bribery sounds tempting lol

 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I should totally try this to motivate myself with the laundry   :coolgleamA:  :laugh:

 

OP, I would look into dysgraphia, especially with the other diagnoses that she already has. I have a DS with it and writing/spelling/handwriting are his hardest subjects.

[PeterPan]

You can play more than that!  She's only 8.  Do you play store?  My dd used to have this really INVOLVED play.  Like she would think up a thing (going to have a circus), and then she would DO everything for it.  She made tickets and attractions and costumes and names for the cages and carnival games and...  It was a really big thing!  She went through a stage where she really liked writing her "recipes" and I still have those somewhere, hehe.  She would act out the Boxcar Children books around that age.  She put a LOT of energy into her Boxcar play.  

 

Have you looked at Litwits?

 

Just play.  Let the play quietly weave in some good skills.  I'll tell you, I'm SO much less afraid to play and call play good with my 2nd than I was with my first.  

 

It's not surprising that she's not passionate about anything.  You're looking for subtle indications of strength.  With ADHD, you're just as likely to get kids who flit from thing to thing, who like everything (or like nothing), who are undriven, who don't follow through even when they say they're driven.  I just wouldn't expect passion, efficiency, or follow through.  What I WOULD expect are enthusiasm, strengths, and enjoyment of doing things in context.  So if there's a methodology or focus that makes her light up, tackle things from that angle.  

 

The other thing that helps me get grounded (well besides getting away from the boards and from the noise of life and voices of the boards, lol), is to ask myself: What would I do if I wasn't afraid?  When I ask that, usually the answer becomes obvious to me.  Because I tend not to do things because I'm afraid.  Sometimes you just have to shed that and go hey, how would I work with her if I WASN'T AFRAID it wouldn't work?   :)

Edited August 23, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[ktgrok]

FYI, there are TONS of things you can do for history using Little House books! The Prairie Primer is pre written, but you could make your own. 

 

And for my daughter, it helps to break a hard subject up, especially if she's having a hard day. So we do half the math lesson, then have a snack while I read to her, then a craft, then she finishes the math later. Often tears for that first part but none for the second. 

[TX Native]

I'm glad to know M&M bribery is magical past the potty training stage. I swear I tried everything to potty train my dc, but when I finally gave in to M&M bribery it was easy peasy. I will have to remember this when we have tough attitude days.

[ktgrok]

Chocolate in all forms, especially with girls. Sometimes, when my daughter has melted down over math, I break out the good chocolate, we each have some, hug, and then move on with better attitudes. 

[mamashark]

Chocolate in all forms, especially with girls. Sometimes, when my daughter has melted down over math, I break out the good chocolate, we each have some, hug, and then move on with better attitudes. 

 

One day when I was a teenager and just having a bad day all around, my mom got out chocolate pudding from the back of the pantry. She said she searched the whole house for something chocolate because it was a chocolate kind of day. She ate the pudding with me, at a time in her life when she didn't eat any desserts. I still remember that day and the fact that chocolate (and special time together) can make any day better.

[Mama Geek]

https://www.amazon.com/Helping-Parents-Practice-Making-Easier/dp/0976785439

 

I am reading this book right now and it has lots of good ideas.  It is written for practicing music, but there are so many other things that it applies to.   I started reading because my dd is now willing to discussing practicing her instrument again and I don't want to go back to the continuous head butting.