Gun Ownerships and Police Shootings---- two tragedies this week

[Lb20inblue]

BLM local groups actually do talk about all police shootings, regardless of race of the individual.  Just because YOU don't hear it, doesn't mean it isn't talked about further.  Do you go to meetings? Do you protest? Do you lobby representatives for change?  But then again, it shows who really is part of this social justice cause and pays attention. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Lb20inblue

[Entropymama]

And why isn't anyone talking about this police shooting of an unarmed man in Fresno California that happened just a month ago?

 

Susan in TX

 

From that article: "Deadly force could be deemed justified if the officers feared for their lives because Noble made repeated furtive movements, refused to show his hands and refused to follow commands, Heal said." 

 

I find this highly disturbing. He was shot because he moved his hand toward his waistband? All it takes are 'furtive movements' for justifiable homicide? If this is accurate, then I think we're all in danger.

[Entropymama]

BLM local groups actually do talk about all police shootings, regardless of race of the individual.  Just because YOU don't hear it, doesn't mean it isn't talked about further.  Do you go to meetings? Do you protest? Do you lobby representatives for change?  But then again, it shows who really is part of this social justice case and pays attention. 

 

Yes and no. It's true that further involvement would mean more information, but her point was that the black lives lost have been (recently) highly publicized, but not the white lives lost. I think she's wondering at that. I wonder, too. Although I don't think the fact that white people also get shot makes these incidents more acceptable or less racist. (I'd be happy to be proven wrong and admit that I'm being prejudiced, but I believe that if it had been my, 30-something, white husband pulled over, he wouldn't have been shot.)

[frogger]

It happens to indigenous people at even higher rates than blacks. And Alaska has lots of them.

 

 

Yes, people are always trying to pit different groups against each other. Native Alaskans have historically NOT been treated equally and they have had soooo many unfair things happen to them in regards to the legal system. They have had their homes burned and been relocated to camps during WW2. They had to dress "white" to prove they should be able to vote and just this past year 4 men finally got out of prison that were put away in what seems  pretty much a racially motivated trial. 

 

Unfair treatment is unfair and there is not point in playing one- upmanship versus fighting it all. 

[frogger]

BLM local groups actually do talk about all police shootings, regardless of race of the individual.  Just because YOU don't hear it, doesn't mean it isn't talked about further.  Do you go to meetings? Do you protest? Do you lobby representatives for change?  But then again, it shows who really is part of this social justice cause and pays attention. 

 

 

That may be true but what I am saying is that a huge segment of the population is being lulled into a false sense of security and it seems to be purposefully done. They should be angry but they are always told it happened to this black person over here who was illegally selling cigarettes or had this past problem. Notice the most publicized cases even within the black community is always one where they can come up with something to make it the victims fault regardless of how stupid some of us think the "reason" is. Some how it comforts a large group of people out there I think.

[justasque]

From The Guardian:  

"Sterling’s death marked the 558th fatal encounter involving US law enforcement officers in 2016,according to The Counted, the Guardian’s nationwide investigation into police use of force.

The project revealed that 1,146 people were killed by police in America in 2015, at a rate of over three fatalities a day.

African American men aged between 15 and 34 were nine times more likely to be killed than any other demographic group.
There have been 11 officer-involved deaths in Louisiana so far this year, meaning the state has the 16th highest rate of fatal encounters in the US."

[IfIOnly]

Castile's death has now been ruled a homicide by the BCA.

[Audrey]

Castile's death has now been ruled a homicide by the BCA.

 

And, identified the murderer. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

So if you have a legal weapon and he doesn't like the way you look or "feels" like you are dangerous-- he can kill you. In other words, even if the victim did exactly as we've been told (was just informing the officer that he had a firearm), the shooting was still justified.   See, now this is the sort of thing I would have thought would get the attention of gun owners.  

 

I didn't say anything about a look or feel.  I specifically referenced actions that could be perceived as an attempt to reach a gun.

 

And yes, gun owner and open carry advocates should be paying attention.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Castile's death has now been ruled a homicide by the BCA.

 

Just so we are clear, a ruling of homicide by a coroner's office only means the death was not accidental, a suicide, or by natural causes.

[poppy]

I didn't say anything about a look or feel.  I specifically referenced actions that could be perceived as an attempt to reach a gun.

 

And yes, gun owner and open carry advocates should be paying attention.

Well, what do you think that perception is based on?  Look and the officers "feeling" aka discernment.

If it happened as it appears here: he was asked for ID, disclosed he had a gun next to his ID, reached for ID, shot.... is that justified?  He was reaching for a gun

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Well, what do you think that perception is based on?  Look and the officers "feeling" aka discernment.

If it happened as it appears here: he was asked for ID, disclosed he had a gun next to his ID, reached for ID, shot.... is that justified?  He was reaching for a gun

 

I am not sure exactly what the officer is claiming, but I believe the speculation is the officer ordered him to not move and then the victim reached in a manner that made the officer believe he was reaching for a gun. 

In that scenario, the officer could easily avoid a criminal charge but also lose his job.

[poppy]

The news out of Dallas is terrible.  Snipers firing at police officers.  Multiple snipers. This is an awful day.

[umsami]

http://chronicle.com/article/One-Trigger-Finger-for/237057/

 

"In the 1970s, Paul Takagi, then a professor of criminology at Berkeley, examined police-caused deaths of male civilians over 10 years old. From 1950 to 1968, he found, the death rate for African-Americans was consistently nine times as high as that for whites, and he concluded that "the police have one trigger finger for whites and another for blacks." (In 2014, ProPublica found that young black males were 21 times as likely to be shot dead by the police as their white counterparts.)"

[Aelwydd]

I suspect that after the incident in Dallas, that's going to become the standard uniform for police response to protesters

It's been standard already for years in multiple cities. Add Dallas to the list.

[zoobie]

Going back to your original question, there was a black man in Dallas legally open carrying some type of long rifle (unloaded!) who was labeled a suspect simply for his open carrying. He and his family have been getting death threats even though he's been cleared as not having been involved at all.

 

Why did the Minnesota cop even have his gun drawn and pointed at the occupants of the car when they were pulled over for a broken taillight? According to his fiancé, his only movement was to stop reaching for his license and start putting his hands back in the air where they had been. They shouldn't have needed the "hands up" position for a routine traffic stop.

[zoobie]

It's been standard already for years in multiple cities. Add Dallas to the list.

Dallas has been making years-long, concerted effort to demilitarize police, de-escalate responses, and the police force is (from what I've read overnight) well-regarded. The police chief and mayor during the press conference were amazing. The Chief talked about how they will continue doing the right things and working to improve. The Chief said the deceased suspect was angry at the Black Lives Matter movement and white cops. So much senseless killing. :(

[Aelwydd]

My point is not "add Dallas," my point is standard across the board now.

New Zealand is looking really good to me right now.

[MercyA]

I agree that everyone should be extra cautious around cops. 

 

I go even further and say that I treat cops like the enemy.  They're the ones with guns and licenced to kill.  They get away with murder.  The cops in the two cases in this thread will get away with their murders, too.  It happens all the time.  It mostly happens to non-white people, but it definitely does happen to all groups of people.   I don't trust a cop not to shoot to kill.  I tell my kid that if he ever gets confronted by a cop, just put your hands up slowly and start begging them not to kill you. 

 

:iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree: (sadly enough).

[Aelwydd]

Dallas has been making years-long, concerted effort to demilitarize police, de-escalate responses, and the police force is (from what I've read overnight) well-regarded. The police chief and mayor during the press conference were amazing. The Chief talked about how they will continue doing the right things and working to improve. The Chief said the deceased suspect was angry at the Black Lives Matter movement and white cops. So much senseless killing. :(

I'm not blaming the police chief for whatever comes. I actually place a lot of blame for the overall movement towards police militarization at the federal level. The more authoritarian the government becomes the more strictly regulated and the harsher the crackdown on peaceful protests everywhere.

[Murphy101]

New Zealand is looking really good to me right now.

I literally just saw an ad from a New Zealand coastal village that's needing more people and offering lucrative packages to those who meet their needs to come live there. I told my dh if they had a Catholic parish and a decent yarn store, I'd be very tempted to start filling out passport and visa requests.

[Katy]

I literally just saw an ad from a New Zealand coastal village that's needing more people and offering lucrative packages to those who meet their needs to come live there. I told my dh if they had a Catholic parish and a decent yarn store, I'd be very tempted to start filling out passport and visa requests.

 

Please share this link.  Perhaps in a spin-off thread.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm not blaming the police chief for whatever comes. I actually place a lot of blame for the overall movement towards police militarization at the federal level. The more authoritarian the government becomes the more strictly regulated and the harsher the crackdown on peaceful protests everywhere.

 

I can't get on board with most of what you said, mainly because there are numerous peaceful protests with no issues.  We also have had some protests recently start out peacefully and then veer of course.

 

In addition, the militarization of police departments is more related to local/state policies than anything coming from the federal level. 

[Murphy101]

Please share this link. Perhaps in a spin-off thread.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/New-Zealand-town-with-too-many-jobs-is-offering-8337340.php

 

I suppose how lucrative it is depends on the beholder. But still mighty interesting!

[Audrey]

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/New-Zealand-town-with-too-many-jobs-is-offering-8337340.php

 

I suppose how lucrative it is depends on the beholder. But still mighty interesting!

 

Not true.  The town itself refutes the story.

[Murphy101]

Not true. The town itself refutes the story.

 

Oh well. bummer Good thing I didn't start packing. 😎

[hornblower]

This is interesting to me: 

More police officers die on the job in states with more guns 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/08/more-police-officers-die-on-the-job-in-states-with-more-guns/

[happi duck]

This is interesting to me:

 

More police officers die on the job in states with more guns

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/07/08/more-police-officers-die-on-the-job-in-states-with-more-guns/

That is interesting.

 

I'm glad to see a study happening. Isn't that one of the problems: that the CDC isn't allowed to study gun violence to the same degree it studies other concerns?

[Joker]

I find it interesting that no one really wants to talk about Philando Castile, the Minnesota shooting victim, and seem to only be focusing on the rap sheet of the Louisiana victim. It seems many have lots to say about that one and how we "all" should just do what police say and no one will get hurt, but no one wants to really discuss what the heck happened in Minnesota. At least, that's what I'm seeing around me and on my FB. I wonder what they will all say when/if it's determined the police were in the wrong. 

 

I'm beginning to feel if we all aren't out there helping to bring awareness and helping bridge the divide then we are truly part of the problem. It's easy to sit at home and say this or that but I honestly feel like we (my family) should be doing more. 

[Guest]

I find it interesting that no one really wants to talk about Philando Castile, the Minnesota shooting victim, and seem to only be focusing on the rap sheet of the Louisiana victim. It seems many have lots to say about that one and how we "all" should just do what police say and no one will get hurt, but no one wants to really discuss what the heck happened in Minnesota. At least, that's what I'm seeing around me and on my FB. I wonder what they will all say when/if it's determined the police were in the wrong.

 

I'm beginning to feel if we all aren't out there helping to bring awareness and helping bridge the divide then we are truly part of the problem. It's easy to sit at home and say this or that but I honestly feel like we (my family) should be doing more.

Castile and all that inexcusable, barbaric egregiousness directed at him is ALL I hear about around here. I didn't even know something happened in Louisiana until that thread, but my husband, of all people, is the one who brought up Castile and ranted about how bad it was and asked if I'd seen the video. He is the card carrying lifetime gun advocate and fairly indifferent on any race issues because it's not something he comes across in his circles. He couldn't believe how completely black and white inexcusable it was. Like Tamir Rice, there is just no justifying it on any level. And no reasonable doubt about the intent of the victims, based on the footage and reports.

 

Many cases have more questions, but not this one. When law abiding citizens in any corner of this country are the ones afraid there is a fundamental failure in government at the most basic level and it does need to be addressed. Full stop. We can disagree on the most effective methods (I dislike protests compared to other methods of affecting local change) but I find it hard to believe any person looking at the facts even somewhat objectively could see any validity in the shooting of either this innocent man or the Dallas cops just doing their jobs.

 

Again, I think clear thinking individuals can disagree on the etiologies and contributing factors that lead to the results we see. And also on the best way to solve some of these issues going forward. But basic identification of very real problems of racial hatred and bias going either direction are a no brainer IMO.

Edited July 9, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[poppy]

So talking about gun laws related to shootings....

 

The Dallas shooter was former military with no criminal record.  Even with very strict gun control, I think he'd be someone who could get a permit for a firearm. And the gun he used it a simple hunting rifle, from what I understand.  So this tragedy is just senseless and wouldn't have prevented by stricter gun laws or enforcement. 

 

Although it is not a case of "a gun is just a tool, he could have just as easily used a knife...."   Sniper fire by a well trained shooter is just flat out  terrifying .

 

I do feel so much empathy for the guy falsely identified as the shooter because he was carrying a weapon (and black, presumably).   He must have feared for his life.  It was a bad call for the Dallas PD to put his photo out as a suspect.  I hope other PDs learn from this.

[fairfarmhand]

I found this article today.

 

http://nashville.citymomsblog.com/cant-calm-down-wont-get-over-it/

 

I thought it was relevant.

[QueenCat]

I found this article today.

 

http://nashville.citymomsblog.com/cant-calm-down-wont-get-over-it/

 

I thought it was relevant.

 

This brought tears to my eyes. I hope people read it and really absorb what this mom is saying.

[Caroline]

I found this article today.

 

http://nashville.citymomsblog.com/cant-calm-down-wont-get-over-it/

 

I thought it was relevant.

So important that we all read this.

[Pam in CT]

re "jumping to compassion without jumping to conclusions"

I found this article today.

 

http://nashville.citymomsblog.com/cant-calm-down-wont-get-over-it/

 

I thought it was relevant.

 

 

Thank you for this.

 

 

 

 

So, please. Stop playing devil’s advocate with the details. Instead, maybe pray for more compassion. As a friend beautifully suggested:

“You can jump to compassion without jumping to conclusions. Jesus did it all the time. It is the ministry of empathy, and it is disconcertingly and disproportionately absent from a large sector of the public discourse.†—Grant Jenkins

We need to stop arguing with each other and with people of color about whether or not a black man’s death was justified, but do not read that as an invitation or excuse for silence. I am begging my white friends to speak out. By all means, be part of the conversation. Let’s talk about the systemic racism that likely led us to another black funeral, the racial profiling that exists in Stop and Frisk Laws, the overt and hidden prejudice of middle-class white men in power who have never had a relationship with a person of color, the school to prison pipeline, Mandatory Sentencing Laws, generational poverty stemming from the continued fallout of the Jim Crow Laws.

Will my son be a hashtag someday?