The results of the godly tomatoes method on kids

[gardenmom5]

A phrase which turns up a lot in this sort of thread is "eat the meat, spit out the bones". Which, okay, but it's more like "eat the M&Ms, spit out the candy covered turds". And while it's tempting to say that only those of us with an axe to grind take all this talk about child-beating literally, the truth is that people who use these books as guides do it too.

 

If anybody here wants to gather up all the tiny pearls of good advice from this book and others of its ilk, and then publish it as a new "Good Parts Only" parenting guide, more power to you. Until then, I'm going to keep saying that this genre of parenting guide is so tainted by child abuse that they should not be recommended to anybody, ever.

 

other's have said similar - but you're the last so I"m quoting you.  ;-)

 

we have a saying:

satan will tell you 99 truths if you'll believe one lie.  (especially one lie that will destroy the spirit and faith of children.)  oh, and there are far more lies in this carp.  just buying into one . . . is one too many.  it's not worth the risk.

there's a big difference between bad advice becasue someone is naive, and bad advice becasue someone is preaching something evil. THIS carp . .. . is evil.  no if's, and's, or buts.  and the proper response to evil to cast is aside and have nothing to do with it.

 

eta: my mother was raised with this - it destroyed her spirit, which seriously hurt her own children.

Edited June 25, 2016 by gardenmom5

[MistyMountain]

I haven't read this whole thread yet. The examples given are not relationship building and teaching children how to stay calm and not take their anger out on others. For example the small child or toddler who wanted to sit on their moms lap but it could not happen right then. You can tell the child I understand that you are upset that you want to sit in mommies lap right now but mom is trying to get something done and it is hard when you are in my lap. They may not stay calm but if you stay calm and acknowledge their feelings and do not give in just because of the behavior they are not learning to react like that. In a lot if kids that behavior will disappear once they are past toddlerhood. If it does not then the child obviously has a harder time regulating emotions and it is a skill they need to learn but things take time. Kids should not fear their parents. A child does not manipulate. If they realize a parent does not give in to whining, tantrums, yelling etc they will not keep doing it but if they do they are doing it because it is hard for them. If kids could do better they would. I like the strategy from the explosive child to talk problems over with the child and together figure out ways with their input to manage outbursts better but there are lots and lots of ways to handle the situation teaching them better ways to express themselves.

 

Hitting a child repeatedly for wanting up on mommies lap and feeling sad and showing it is not going to teach a child empathy. That is breaking a child's spirit. It is important to teach better ways to handle themselves. There are so many ways to do that but things take time. Acknowledging feelings really is not going to turn a kid into a tyrant. Lots of examples from the book and website have included hitting kids until they obey right away with a calm demeanor. That fits into the authorarian style and statistically that method is not good. Hitting kids over and over even if it takes hours for things like fidgeting, wanting to sit on mom's lap, or toddlers who want to get down is not good parenting. It is not building a child up and teaching them how to be calm even if they act that way out of fear and stuffing their emotions.

 

I am not sure what getting to the root of the issue means versus symptoms. If you talk to a child when they are calm you can find out what is hard for them or causing it. If the child is a toddler or too young to discuss it then the behavior is not going to last forever. Kids are not miniature adults. They are still learning. They have a long time to learn behavior and to mature. Stuffing emotions is not healthy.The best way is for them to see you calmly handling the situation and hitting, paddling or spanking repeatedly is not calm it is aggressive. This is not just lighly spanking for things that are serious.

 

I am not even close to perfect. I make mistakes as a parent and I do not handle things the way I want to all the time but I know that it would have been bad if all I had was these kind of books and only knew people using these methods.

Edited June 25, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Rosie_0801]

Mil refused to come meet our first baby because my dh, her son, was disagreeing with her regarding something and disagreeing with your parent is forbidden. She refused to see her grand baby because someone didn't agree with her!

 

 

My MIL threatened suicide because I wouldn't let her come to the hospital and she had to wait until dd was about 10 days old. Even though she was out of the country when her first grandchild was born and didn't see him until he was well past 10 days old.

 

She's lucky I wasn't near enough to grab the phone or her ears would still be ringing 9 years later.

 

Apparently that was a close and loving, very functional family. I must say my standards are a little higher.

[Guest]

Gardenmom, I am so sorry you were treated this way. Several of your points, I can relate to, unfortunately, especially being vulnerable with others and believing I am worthy of love by God or anyone else.

[Alessandra]

You can read about outlasting here--https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/09/09/review-of-infant-spankingchild-abuse-manual-raising-godly-tomatoes-by-l-elizabeth-krueger/

This is beyond horrifying. The comment about author's siblings being unable to move into adulthood is so sad.

[Guest]

A phrase which turns up a lot in this sort of thread is "eat the meat, spit out the bones". Which, okay, but it's more like "eat the M&Ms, spit out the candy covered turds". And while it's tempting to say that only those of us with an axe to grind take all this talk about child-beating literally, the truth is that people who use these books as guides do it too.

 

If anybody here wants to gather up all the tiny pearls of good advice from this book and others of its ilk, and then publish it as a new "Good Parts Only" parenting guide, more power to you. Until then, I'm going to keep saying that this genre of parenting guide is so tainted by child abuse that they should not be recommended to anybody, ever.

Well, I'll say this. I have not read the Goldly Tomatoes book and I was never a member of that forum. I used to read her website a billion years ago when it was a loose collection of articles. I never liked the actual domain name, which was "a trip to the woodshed." If that doesn't say she holds corporal punishment in high regard, I don't know what does.

 

BUT! There were good ideas on that site. The "tomato staking" concept makes a TON of sense, and can be easily accomplished with a non-punitive outlook. Almost any relationship can be improved by investing actual time, focused attention on the other person. Having your errant kid hang out with you and do things alongside you is a practically perfect way to form a close bond with them.

 

So, actually, I don't think the "eat the meat and spit out the bones" form of advice is bad. I would only not recommend that for someone who has poor powers of discernment. Nobody is going to have 100% perfect advice for child-rearing, marriage, financial managment, homeschooling or whatever. I think TWTM, for instance, is a great book, but I don't homeschool exactly like that. Some chapters, I say, "Yes, that is exactly what I think!" But others, I say, "nah. I'm not into that."

 

There were also some things I loved in reading Dr. Sears, as well as things I strongly disagreed with. There were also a couple things I tried a little until I found it was not a good strategy for myself or my kid(s). In some ways, I think Sears' approach also asked the reader to stick with it and trust that it would all work out eventually, which I think is just as bad as the advice to just keep on beating the kid and one day he will submit and become a delight.

[maize]

One significant factor in how any method is applied is the parent's temperament and mental health. A parent who is themself healthy and who has a good sense of empathy is not likely to take any advice to an abusive extreme. An adult lacking in empathy and/or struggling with their own emotional regulation is at much higher risk.

Unfortunately genetic and environmental factors are likely to combine to cause the child of such a parent to be less regulated and more challenging to parent effectively. It's a super tough combination and one that makes advice that pits parent and child in a power struggle particularly dangerous.

Edited June 25, 2016 by maize

[SemiSweet]

I also just found this example of outlasting--http://lifeofahappymom.com/blog/2010/05/05/major-outlasting-session-the-rest-of-the-story/

 

ETA-I read on the blog that the child in this story was 15 months at the time.

That is horrifying.

 

I have two separate outcomes of this type of parenting.

 

My mother was raised this way, her mother was an absolute dictator. My mom ended up being such an extreme people pleaser that she wouldn't seek child support from my father despite bringing us to the brink of homelessness. You can guilt that woman into doing absolutely anything, she was a doormat in every sense of the word. Only now in her late 50s- early 60s has she started standing up for herself, and only minimally.

 

The other story is about me. When I was pregnant with ds I read a ton of Sears and knew that's how I would parent. I belonged to a church that was big into Growing Kids Gods Way/Babywise. About the time ds was 18 months I finally went to one of their so-called parenting classes. I became convinced I was doing it all wrong and the very next day tried that outlasting technique. I've blocked it out, I have no idea how long it lasted, I hope not too long for that poor child's sake. That was enough for me. I started looking into Ezzo and found Gentle Christian Mothers and returned happily to Dr. Sears. Ultimately, it lead me away from Christianity completely and I am so thankful that my experience parenting in that manner lasted less than one day.

 

I absolutely cry for children being raised in these households. Dd was notoriously difficult from about 2-8, I was definitely not a perfect parent, but I cannot imagine where our relationship would be had I continued that route, we have such a great relationship now.

Edited June 25, 2016 by SemiSweet

[poppy]

Well, I'll say this. I have not read the Goldly Tomatoes book and I was never a member of that forum. I used to read her website a billion years ago when it was a loose collection of articles. I never liked the actual domain name, which was "a trip to the woodshed." If that doesn't say she holds corporal punishment in high regard, I don't know what does.

 

BUT! There were good ideas on that site. The "tomato staking" concept makes a TON of sense, and can be easily accomplished with a non-punitive outlook. Almost any relationship can be improved by investing actual time, focused attention on the other person. Having your errant kid hang out with you and do things alongside you is a practically perfect way to form a close bond with them.

 

So, actually, I don't think the "eat the meat and spit out the bones" form of advice is bad. I would only not recommend that for someone who has poor powers of discernment. Nobody is going to have 100% perfect advice for child-rearing, marriage, financial managment, homeschooling or whatever. I think TWTM, for instance, is a great book, but I don't homeschool exactly like that. Some chapters, I say, "Yes, that is exactly what I think!" But others, I say, "nah. I'm not into that."

 

There were also some things I loved in reading Dr. Sears, as well as things I strongly disagreed with. There were also a couple things I tried a little until I found it was not a good strategy for myself or my kid(s). In some ways, I think Sears' approach also asked the reader to stick with it and trust that it would all work out eventually, which I think is just as bad as the advice to just keep on beating the kid and one day he will submit and become a delight.

 

There are a whole lot of parenting books that give similar advise about attention that aren't fundamentally wrong about child development.  I agree no book will give 100% perfect advise, but there's no reason to keep a book on the shelf that's caused as much trauma as we've seen on this thread.

 

[EmseB]

Not to pick on anyone, but I honestly think much of this has to do with a lack of autonomy or some kind of discernment. I have read Sears, Gaskin, Ezzo, What to Expect, a lot of gentle parenting stuff from the LLL book table that I can't remember, TWTM, Charlotte Mason...etc, etc. From birth to school age stuff. There is not one book out there where I've taken it and tried to rigidly apply every single thing in it to the point of distress in my children or myself. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to say that I just can't imagine a mindset where people read and then just mindlessly do whatever some other person says to the point of misery. I can't fathom it because why? I know people do it, but I can't figure it out.

 

I didn't stop feeding my hungry baby when I read Ezzo, I didn't stop vaccinating my kids on schedule when I read Sears, I didn't have a homebirth because I read Gaskin, I didn't start beating my kids because I read an article on RGT,my oldest went to school for K and 1st even though we read TWTM.

 

And yet, from each of those books I usually found something to glean that helped me in some way.

 

I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But I just find it so disheartening that apparently there are so many people out there who are looking for a formula that works to make perfectly well-adjusted kids and then try to rigidly apply a formula to human beings. What does encourage me, I guess, is that I know many people in my real life who do not operate this way. I do wonder how much of this stuff is due to a book or books and how much is just the personality of the individual reading the stuff.

[FaithManor]

Five months in a BG school in which the only acceptable student was the one that smiled when abused and enjoyed being a doormat;

 

Not a single emotion of any kind was acceptable. None. We were to be walking zombies albeit smiling zombies.

 

Everything about our individuality was suppressed.

 

And again, all expressions of anything but silently smiling was sin.

 

Large oak paddles were present in every room along with lashes hanging on the walls so we would be constantly reminded of what they would do to us if we were less than perfect. This author's recommendation to lay a paddle on the table between the parent and child as a visual reminder is very triggering to me. I consider it cruel, abusive, and downright evil. It literally terrorizing a child. People who do this should have their children taken away from them forever!

 

Thankfully my home was not like this. My dad had been horribly abused as a child and was keenly tuned into to being a non abusive parent. My mom was raised in a very loving, gentle home and that is what she wanted for her kids. Still, dad had some pretty serious problems because he never learned to cope with his own emotions. So I still grew up with major relationship issues with him as did my sibs.

 

I have never read this book but elements of it are very Gothardy which means that if I ever saw a copy of it, I would buy it and them burn it so hopefully saving a famly from the horror of it. There is nothing good ever that comes from bullying a child into a zombie like state of unquestioning obedience because the parent is too lazy, too selfish, too sociopathic to help a child learn to cope with emotions or to consider them as individuals.

 

What I have related about my experience is not the worst. That stuff can't be described in an open forum because it is too triggeting and might cause some people to have panic attacks from reading it.

Edited June 25, 2016 by FaithManor

[MegP]

FaithManor..I am so sorry for what you experienced.It is just horrific!

 

 

I just found out that the author of godly tomatoes  is a fan of Gothard-I just found this by googling-here is the link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/problems-misc.php

 

"Question: Have you ever been affiliated with Bill Gothard's Institute In Basic Life Principles? I just wondered because much of your advice sounds similar.

Answer: We have never worked in the Gothard organization, but we are very familiar with it. I attended my first seminar about 26 years ago and have been to many, many since. I think we were area coordinators for a while or had some other minor role in helping with a few seminars. I've forgotten. The Bill Gothard Basic Youth Conflicts Seminar (now called the Institute in Basic Life Principles) was one of the top 4 life changing events in my life (the other three were: discovering the Bible on tape,  discovering home schooling, and learning a better way to parent.)  There are a number of things I don't 100% agree with Gothard on (like his suggestion that you just might be slothful if you need more than 5 hours sleep, BAH!), but for the most part we are certainly on the same wave length. I must add that many of the things that we learned from our mentors (whom I've mentioned before), we later heard Bill Gothard repeat at some of his advanced seminars. Interesting. 

We almost signed up for Gothard's home schooling program, but we pulled out after we were approved, because we just felt we didn't want to give up the way we were already doing things.  Because the Gothard program would take so much time, we would have had to restructure our days.  I think their materials are wonderful, and would have loved to use them, but couldn't without signing up for the entire program."

[Luckymama]

I cannot "like" that post FM. Holy crud.

 

:grouphug:

[pinkmint]

You know, thinking and reading on these threads I feel like I should be fair to myself and the women who suggested this book to me. We do a lot of these principles, but with almost no spanking. Changing that to talking, having kids take breaks in their room or a corner until they've calmed down enough to listen, and trying different approaches until the discipline issues are completely resolved (our version of outlasting is just not giving up and leaving our parenting half done because it's easier) are our basic premises. We keep the kids close, nurture relationships and good attitudes, get off our butts and solve problems instead of lazy parenting that just appeases or glosses over deeper heart issues, etc.

 

When I read the book I'm probably importing a lot of that philosophy into it. I expect a lot of us parents who don't hate the book are doing something similar. I'm trying to 'hear' it as this board does and can see how it could be taken as something abusive or totally soul crushing if the most extreme interpretation of everything is used. Anything can be twisted and used to justify abuse, and this is no exception. I can personally say I just use the basic concepts along with our accepted methods of correction and teaching, and that works beautifully for our home. But I honestly can say the spanking for multiple hours and demanding physical perfection from children isn't something I recognize from reading it and is absolutely insane as a response to basic childishness. I probably just tossed the idea immediately because of the absurdity of the suggestions.

 

I think the book has some more context than is being presented here, especially in terms of worldview and how one looks at the nature of humans and the relationship of child and parent under God's ordering of the universe, but I think I will reread if and see if it is still something I can endorse now as a more mature parent or if it really is mostly junk and less 'gold'. I might be remembering the source material as more rosy than it actually is :o. Some of those quotes I can see a different spin that isn't horrendous but the rest are horrible and I don't remember that at all.

 

This is more or less my thoughts. And I would certainly agree that trying to force a child into robotic "godliness" with hours-long spank sessions is abuse. I am another one who doesn't see the book as saying that, but again, maybe there's enough material that can be taken and ran with in a bad direction that it outweighs the good.

 

I do think the whole foundation of parenting is different when you are a Christian who believe that we all, children included, have a sin nature. I know many people find the idea extremely offensive and that we are all actually born a clean slate with nothing but goodness. I believe we all do have a sin nature. But it doesn't lead me to try to beat everyone into correctness. It just makes me want to help my child not, for example - scream, hit and spit in my face as a normal part of their development (given they are neurotypical).

 

I can tell you that in my time at the RGT message boards, I remember a mom whose posts showed the tendencies to expect perfection and correct her child for things that were not a big deal, and many of the members there would repeatedly encourage her that her child's behavior was normal for that age and to lighten up. Even the author of the book would post and say that. I also remember quite a few members remarking how the boards had softened up in more recent days (it's now closed) and how that was a good thing, and how it was easier now for people to get gentler advice. I was not a member from the early days, I came on board later.

 

I think if the author would revise/ rewrite the book she would probably do a better job of explaining things. At the same time, I can say that my observation of the author shows me that she's coming from a certain place with her experience-colored glasses, like we all are, and I can't relate to a lot of it.

 

My background is so extremely different from some of the posters here who describe being harshly required to be "good". My background was messed up in a different way. I grew up in southern California (not the bible belt or the heartland) experiencing neglect and poverty under the care of a very irresponsible single parent. There were zero requirements other than "get outta my face". My emotions were left to me to figure out and often they went off a cliff. There was also more time spent alone than any child should have to be. So for me the "tomato staking" feature of being in daily closeness with a child, and guidance with raging emotions has been a helpful thing. The whole conservative Christian strictness ditch is pretty foreign to me.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just my thoughts and experience.

 

ETA: Never mind. I dont know how to articulate myself.

Edited June 25, 2016 by pinkmint

[historically accurate]

Not to pick on anyone, but I honestly think much of this has to do with a lack of autonomy or some kind of discernment. I have read Sears, Gaskin, Ezzo, What to Expect, a lot of gentle parenting stuff from the LLL book table that I can't remember, TWTM, Charlotte Mason...etc, etc. From birth to school age stuff. There is not one book out there where I've taken it and tried to rigidly apply every single thing in it to the point of distress in my children or myself. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to say that I just can't imagine a mindset where people read and then just mindlessly do whatever some other person says to the point of misery. I can't fathom it because why? I know people do it, but I can't figure it out.

 

I didn't stop feeding my hungry baby when I read Ezzo, I didn't stop vaccinating my kids on schedule when I read Sears, I didn't have a homebirth because I read Gaskin, I didn't start beating my kids because I read an article on RGT,my oldest went to school for K and 1st even though we read TWTM.

 

And yet, from each of those books I usually found something to glean that helped me in some way.

 

I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But I just find it so disheartening that apparently there are so many people out there who are looking for a formula that works to make perfectly well-adjusted kids and then try to rigidly apply a formula to human beings. What does encourage me, I guess, is that I know many people in my real life who do not operate this way. I do wonder how much of this stuff is due to a book or books and how much is just the personality of the individual reading the stuff.

 

 

I think there is a difference between the GT lady's "advice" and various other expert's advice though. If you follow the vaccination schedule, you may be hurting your child physically (per Sears), but if you don't follow the GT advice, you will lose the child's eternal soul. This Christian aspect of BG, the GT lady, Pearls', etc. means that if you don't follow it 100% you are literally (in the minds of Christian parents) playing with the fires of h*ll. I can see how it can be harder to separate out the good stuff from the other if you are being told that not outlasting over a plastic toy puts your precious little boy in permanent disobedience not only to you but to God. 

[Xahm]

Not to pick on anyone, but I honestly think much of this has to do with a lack of autonomy or some kind of discernment. I have read Sears, Gaskin, Ezzo, What to Expect, a lot of gentle parenting stuff from the LLL book table that I can't remember, TWTM, Charlotte Mason...etc, etc. From birth to school age stuff. There is not one book out there where I've taken it and tried to rigidly apply every single thing in it to the point of distress in my children or myself. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to say that I just can't imagine a mindset where people read and then just mindlessly do whatever some other person says to the point of misery. I can't fathom it because why? I know people do it, but I can't figure it out.

 

I didn't stop feeding my hungry baby when I read Ezzo, I didn't stop vaccinating my kids on schedule when I read Sears, I didn't have a homebirth because I read Gaskin, I didn't start beating my kids because I read an article on RGT,my oldest went to school for K and 1st even though we read TWTM.

 

And yet, from each of those books I usually found something to glean that helped me in some way.

 

I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But I just find it so disheartening that apparently there are so many people out there who are looking for a formula that works to make perfectly well-adjusted kids and then try to rigidly apply a formula to human beings. What does encourage me, I guess, is that I know many people in my real life who do not operate this way. I do wonder how much of this stuff is due to a book or books and how much is just the personality of the individual reading the stuff.

Yeah, when I see a book like this on someone's bookshelf, I don't assume they are abusing their kids. Most people I interact with on a regular basis are great at taking good parts and leaving the rest, and usually they couldn't imagine that others wouldn't do so as well. I had long conversations with a family that said they used "To Train Up a Child" by the Pearls, but what they described was not what the book prescribed. When asked about this, they were aghast that I thought anyone would take the advice to the full, literal extreme. I spent a lot (A LOT) of time in that family's house, and while they were stricter than I am, there was no blanket training or other craziness. Knowing that family and that their children came out with a healthy range of emotions, able to appropriately question their parents' decisions, etc does NOT mean I would ever recommend anything by the Pearls to anyone else, though. It only means I don't assume anything when someone says they "follow" so and so or such and such's method.

[Guest]

Faith, I remember those paddles. Those "Board of Education" paddles that were to be applied to the "seat of understanding." My parents never had one, but I remember the one hanging in the principal's office, which also hung on a hook in the principal's home kitchen. His dd was my best friend for a while there.

 

https://www.etsy.com/listing/106973245/vintage-school-teachers-spanking-paddle

 

Tangent: I find it a little horrifying that you can buy those paddles as a vintage item for "kitsch." Clearly anyone who would offer those for sale as vintage, or buy them, probably doesn't have the memories you and I do.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not to pick on anyone, but I honestly think much of this has to do with a lack of autonomy or some kind of discernment. I have read Sears, Gaskin, Ezzo, What to Expect, a lot of gentle parenting stuff from the LLL book table that I can't remember, TWTM, Charlotte Mason...etc, etc. From birth to school age stuff. There is not one book out there where I've taken it and tried to rigidly apply every single thing in it to the point of distress in my children or myself. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to say that I just can't imagine a mindset where people read and then just mindlessly do whatever some other person says to the point of misery. I can't fathom it because why? I know people do it, but I can't figure it out.

 

I didn't stop feeding my hungry baby when I read Ezzo, I didn't stop vaccinating my kids on schedule when I read Sears, I didn't have a homebirth because I read Gaskin, I didn't start beating my kids because I read an article on RGT,my oldest went to school for K and 1st even though we read TWTM.

 

And yet, from each of those books I usually found something to glean that helped me in some way.

 

I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But I just find it so disheartening that apparently there are so many people out there who are looking for a formula that works to make perfectly well-adjusted kids and then try to rigidly apply a formula to human beings. What does encourage me, I guess, is that I know many people in my real life who do not operate this way. I do wonder how much of this stuff is due to a book or books and how much is just the personality of the individual reading the stuff.

 

I read exactly one parenting book. It was a gift.  I never read another one because I did not find it helpful at all. 

 

I think it is understandable that people are looking for ways to not screw their kids up or to not screw parenting up.  I knew nothing about parenting and still don't.  There wasn't much parenting going on when when I was a kid, and I suspect this is true for a lot of people.  We aren't really taught how to parent.  For most of us the only glimpse into what that is like is most of us once had parents, and for many we barely spent much time with our parents at all.  So it is not surprising to me that people go looking for some magical step by step method. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Also, I discourage crappy attitudes. Smiles are contagious. Not just to others, but to ourselves.

 

"Yes dear, I know you aren't thrilled to do the dishes. Me either. However acting like a butt nugget over doing what needs done in life is not going to make them any more of a joy to clean. So knock it off and let's get this done, thank you!"

 

I see nothing wrong with this.  I'm not so much into forced fake smiling, but I do get that it is not pleasant to be around someone who is constantly miserable and self centered.  And to me this depends on the situation.  There is a difference between a kid throwing the sad fit of the century over losing at Candy Land and kid is upset because of something more serious than that. 

 

I just don't understand, and this is not directed at you, why this requires constant slapping. 

[EmseB]

I think there is a difference between the GT lady's "advice" and various other expert's advice though. If you follow the vaccination schedule, you may be hurting your child physically (per Sears), but if you don't follow the GT advice, you will lose the child's eternal soul. This Christian aspect of BG, the GT lady, Pearls', etc. means that if you don't follow it 100% you are literally (in the minds of Christian parents) playing with the fires of h*ll. I can see how it can be harder to separate out the good stuff from the other if you are being told that not outlasting over a plastic toy puts your precious little boy in permanent disobedience not only to you but to God.

See, and it just goes to show that I promptly forget the stuff I don't use. I don't remember any RGT stuff about if I don't do it her way then my kids are going to hell. But that's sort of what I'm talking about. If she wrote that somewhere, it would just be something I would discard. If someone said to me, "if you don't parent this way your kids are damned" I would probably laugh at them and go on with my day. But to be honest, I knew a few attachment parents online who thought that if they didn't babywear and co-sleep (among other things) their kids would be forever damaged as well. And they did this despite great difficulty and an obvious aversion to it from at least one of their kids. And don't get me started on the abuse that I read about in the "Taking Children Seriously" movement. I mean, people don't have to believe in hell to go off the deep end because they think their kids will be permanently damaged if they do something a different way than what they read about.

 

Like I said before, I mainly encountered these people on the internet, so I have to believe some of the more extreme personalities were trolls or fake, because I seriously can't wrap my head around reading one book and going all in with no deviation, or applying something so strictly that in the moment one only thinks "what would this method have me do?" rather than "what would be best for this child?". I have to believe most people are trying to do the latter.

[abcmommy]

Krueger used to post on breastfeeding dot com as Thalia.  She had some "funny" stories she used to tell back in the day.

 

Things like beating her kid when he answered coming instead of "I'm coming"

 

and how her toddler spent the night on the tile bathroom floor so he wouldn't puke in his bed bc she couldn't be bothered to properly care for a sick kid.

 

and how her nearly 20 year old son just loved sleeping in the "boys' dorm" with his younger brothers.

 

 

CREEPY STUFF, people.

[Guest]

This is more or less my thoughts. And I would certainly agree that trying to force a child into robotic "godliness" with hours-long spank sessions is abuse. I am another one who doesn't see the book as saying that, but again, maybe there's enough material that can be taken and ran with in a bad direction that it outweighs the good.

 

I do think the whole foundation of parenting is different when you are a Christian who believe that we all, children included, have a sin nature. I know many people find the idea extremely offensive and that we are all actually born a clean slate with nothing but goodness. I believe we all do have a sin nature. But it doesn't lead me to try to beat everyone into correctness. It just makes me want to help my child not, for example - scream, hit and spit in my face as a normal part of their development (given they are neurotypical).

 

I can tell you that in my time at the RGT message boards, I remember a mom whose posts showed the tendencies to expect perfection and correct her child for things that were not a big deal, and many of the members there would repeatedly encourage her that her child's behavior was normal for that age and to lighten up. Even the author of the book would post and say that. I also remember quite a few members remarking how the boards had softened up in more recent days (it's now closed) and how that was a good thing, and how it was easier now for people to get gentler advice. I was not a member from the early days, I came on board later.

 

I think if the author would revise/ rewrite the book she would probably do a better job of explaining things. At the same time, I can say that my observation of the author shows me that she's coming from a certain place with her experience-colored glasses, like we all are, and I can't relate to a lot of it.

 

My background is so extremely different from some of the posters here who describe being harshly required to be "good". My background was messed up in a different way. I grew up in southern California (not the bible belt or the heartland) experiencing neglect and poverty under the care of a very irresponsible single parent. There were zero requirements other than "get outta my face". My emotions were left to me to figure out and often they went off a cliff. There was also more time spent alone than any child should have to be. So for me the "tomato staking" feature of being in daily closeness with a child, and guidance with raging emotions has been a helpful thing. The whole conservative Christian strictness ditch is pretty foreign to me.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just my thoughts and experience.

 

ETA: I wanted to add... as a Christian there is no such thing as a book to base our life and choices on other than the bible. If anyone is doing that with a parenting book they are in for trouble.

Pinkmint, I am so sorry this was your upbringing; that is certainly equally bad in a different way.

 

Your last line, though: that is where Christians are vulnerable, though. I remember once, before I had kids, I was reading through Proverbs daily and writing comments in a journal. When I got to the "beat him with a rod" verse, my journal comment was, "Whaaaaat?! Yet that IS what it SAYS!" This was before I had my own children and after I had already decided I was not hitting my future kids as a parenting philosophy.

 

So, even if a person thinks, "Well, I am not looking to any book but the Bible," that person is still going to stumble across that verse and others and try to decide what it means. What, exactly, is this permissable "rod"? How old/young of a child are we talking, here? How often is this rod application supposed to happen and for what offenses? Meanwhile, there is that threat hanging behind it that "my child will be headed for HELL if I don't train them up in the way they should go!"

 

This is why Christians are sometimes vulnerable to people like the Pearls, because they have all these questions about this "rod" and they feel the consequences for doing it wrong are extremely dire. And then they see something like the Duggars, pre-Josh scandal, and go, "Well, those people seem like they are doing something right. They have all these kids who seem so pleasant and nice and good and cute. So maybe I need to do what they are doing." And voila! They are "following" something like Gothard or Pearls and are becoming increasingly entwined in baloney.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Like I said before, I mainly encountered these people on the internet, so I have to believe some of the more extreme personalities were trolls or fake, because I seriously can't wrap my head around reading one book and going all in with no deviation, or applying something so strictly that in the moment one only thinks "what would this method have me do?" rather than "what would be best for this child?". I have to believe most people are trying to do the latter.

 

I've met a few extremes on either end.  I met parents who wouldn't reprimand their kids for biting someone or tearing up flowers on private property that we rented because I guess they believed in letting their kids figure stuff out?!  They called it radical parenting and unschooling. But then I've met parents who scream at, berate, and slap their kids constantly for every tiny infraction.  They called that biblical and godly. 

 

It's no wonder I don't have a lot of friends.  LOL

 

 

[poppy]

OP, I think I've found a link with an answer to your question - a summary of research from multiple sources.

 

Godly Tomatoes definitely falls into "authoritarian" style:

Authoritarian parents believe that children are, by nature, strong-willed and self-indulgent. They value obedience to higher authority as a virtue unto itself. Authoritarian parents see their primary job to be bending the will of the child to that of authority - the parent, the church, the teacher. Willfulness is seen to be the root of unhappiness, bad behavior, and sin. Thus a loving parent is one who tries to break the will of the child. 

Baumrind's exemplar of an authoritarian mother is Susanna Wesley, mother of the founders of the Methodist Church. She writes

As self-will is the root of all sin and misery, so whatsoever cherishes this in children ensures their after-wretchedness . . . whatever checks and mortifies it promotes their future happiness and piety. 

Wesley's discipine was "strict, consistent, and loving," clearly motivated by her love for her children (source)

.

 

Authoritarian Parenting: How does it affect kids?

[pinkmint]

Never mind

Edited June 25, 2016 by pinkmint

[Guest]

See, and it just goes to show that I promptly forget the stuff I don't use. I don't remember any RGT stuff about if I don't do it her way then my kids are going to hell. But that's sort of what I'm talking about. If she wrote that somewhere, it would just be something I would discard. If someone said to me, "if you don't parent this way your kids are damned" I would probably laugh at them and go on with my day. But to be honest, I knew a few attachment parents online who thought that if they didn't babywear and co-sleep (among other things) their kids would be forever damaged as well. And they did this despite great difficulty and an obvious aversion to it from at least one of their kids. And don't get me started on the abuse that I read about in the "Taking Children Seriously" movement. I mean, people don't have to believe in hell to go off the deep end because they think their kids will be permanently damaged if they do something a different way than what they read about.

 

Like I said before, I mainly encountered these people on the internet, so I have to believe some of the more extreme personalities were trolls or fake, because I seriously can't wrap my head around reading one book and going all in with no deviation, or applying something so strictly that in the moment one only thinks "what would this method have me do?" rather than "what would be best for this child?". I have to believe most people are trying to do the latter.

I agree with you completely on the bolded. This is what I meant upthread. But IME, Sears used language that also makes the parents doubt what they see with their own eyes, too. One of Sears' books warned to "be careful about what appears to work." So when your SIL says, "Oh, I sleep-trained my 6-month-old and now he is happy and sleeps 12 hours every night," you are supposed to doubt their good results and not investigate it because you have been lead to believe that all sleep-training is wrong. Or, there are other "warnings" which I was vulnerable to with my first baby: don't give them any artificial nipples for at least two months because they will become 'nipple confused' and will reject breastfeeding and you will have to quit! (I now think nipple confusion is complete and total bull.)

 

But then the anti-attachment parenting people also use the same kind of "warnings": if you let the baby in your bed, you will NEVER get them out! If you don't train your child properly when they are little and it is relatively easy, you won't be able to do a bloody thing to conteol them once they are big. It is also compounded when the Bible is dragged into it because a Christian mama wants to raise her children in a God-pleasing manner, so, as I said, the mama is then vulnerable to going off on a Pearl tangent or Ezzo or whatever.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Then again how can anyone be sure of the author's intention with the godly tomatoes methods?  This is a PERSON not a god.  They are taking stuff and twisting it to suit them and then spewing that stuff around in the name of this is what god supposedly wants.

I think it's a dangerous combination really.

[EmseB]

I read exactly one parenting book. It was a gift. I never read another one because I did not find it helpful at all.

 

I think it is understandable that people are looking for ways to not screw their kids up or to not screw parenting up. I knew nothing about parenting and still don't. There wasn't much parenting going on when when I was a kid, and I suspect this is true for a lot of people. We aren't really taught how to parent. For most of us the only glimpse into what that is like is most of us once had parents, and for many we barely spent much time with our parents at all. So it is not surprising to me that people go looking for some magical step by step method.

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just think there must be some type of personality that thinks you can input A and get output B when it comes to human beings.

[Guest]

I read exactly one parenting book. It was a gift. I never read another one because I did not find it helpful at all.

 

I think it is understandable that people are looking for ways to not screw their kids up or to not screw parenting up. I knew nothing about parenting and still don't. There wasn't much parenting going on when when I was a kid, and I suspect this is true for a lot of people. We aren't really taught how to parent. For most of us the only glimpse into what that is like is most of us once had parents, and for many we barely spent much time with our parents at all. So it is not surprising to me that people go looking for some magical step by step method.

My mother gave me several pro-authoritarian books when my first kid was born. I didn't like any of them. But she clearly then and still today thinks that parents should spank and exert control over their kids. Even all these years later, with only fully adult kids, when she speaks of ways things didn't turn out so well with any of us, she links it to places where she did not control us strictly enough. She has never expressed regret that she did not have a closer/more genuine relationship with any of us.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just think there must be some type of personality that thinks you can input A and get output B when it comes to human beings.

 

Well it would be nice if that was the case!

 

The more I observe my kids the more I believe there is only so much we can control in terms of their personalities and how they react to stuff.  If they happen to be highly sensitive and pessimistic, best we can do is probably get them to keep those thoughts to themselves (sort of...).  We are not actually changing who they are. 

 

I think one glimpse into our kids in terms of who they are as people is to look at ourselves.  They aren't mini twins of us, but there are likely things we have in common.  I try to remember how I felt as a person that age and why I reacted the way I did to certain things. 

 

My husband occasionally butts heads with our older kid.  Totally normal, but I find it comical that they both talk about the other one to me and DS is being XYZ and Dad is being XYZ and I'm thinking you both are XYZ...BOTH of you....XYZ all the way. 

[Xahm]

This reminds me of a conversation I had with another young mother when my kids were like 6 months and 2 years and her child was 18 months. She asked me "What are you using  to teach your kids?" Confused about what she was asking I said something about reading good books and talking a lot about what's going on around us. She responded confidently "Oh, we're Raising Kids God's Way."  It was a back-away-slowly moment for me. I could tell she was referring to some book or another and couldn't fathom anyone being so arrogant as to name their parenting method "God's Way." Are you planning to send your only child to die for the sins of the world? Because... 

[mom2scouts]

"Isn’t that first paragraph so full of wisdom? “It’s about obedience.†Really, that’s true. If we train our kids to obey everything we say, then we don’t have to teach them a long list of rules that they couldn’t remember anyway; we just have to tell them what to do."

http://lifeofahappym...t-of-the-story/

 

---------------------------------------------------------

 

It's ironic that the blog is titled "Life of a Happy Mom" and then she writes about how she spent the entire day testing and fighting with a toddler for control. I doubt she'll be a happy mom for long.

 

I raised a highly gifted and *VERY* strong-willed child and I made many mistakes, but these methods are disgusting.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Plus, being a kid is not all that fun sometimes.  People expect you to act cooperatively, responsibly, and listen unquestioningly to pretty much everything.  Yet you don't get much credit and respect for any of that.  And you often get the same amount of worry without any power to do anything about a situation.  Not that being an adult is a picnic, but I do have more control over certain things.  Nobody is going to slap me if I am upset about something (at least they aren't going to get away with it).  Nobody in my life tries to micromanage my reactions and feelings.

 

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by SparklyUnicorn

[EmseB]

Nobody in my life tries to micromanage my reactions and feelings.

True, but you are probably not falling out over who gets to push the button on the elevator either. :/

[maize]

True, but you are probably not falling out over who gets to push the button on the elevator either. :/

 

Which is why children do, in fact, need parents! 

[FaithManor]

My parents' pastor is one of these unquestioning obedience, children should be smilinf zombies, abusive a holes. Well he was until one of their children was born with a chromosomal disorder leaving the child profoundly disabled and his eldest child tried to commit suicide because he/she thought his/her own sin probably caused the disorder. Child was not quite ten years old and nearly succeeded.

 

He was a fan of RGT, Pearl's, and Gothard. Recommended them all the time nor any more, but the damage is done and appears to be permanent. That child is entirely screwed up mentally now and shows no sign, despite rigorous, professional help, of coming out of it post two years. Child is now cutting, parents are exhausted with the suicide watches. Numerous individuals in the community believe it is just a matter of time before one of the attempts is successful.

 

Evil. Pure evil. I can never, ever find any gems of "wisdom" in any program of instruction that hints at such vicious, hateful crap. All of these authors should be in prison daily experiencing the traumas they inflicted on innocents. Let them find out what it is like to be abused into a state of depressed, anxiety riddled, zombieism. Let them live every day in fear of being smacked around and beat just for the sin of being human. And may they smile ever so sweetly for their abusers and thank them ever so earnestly for saving their souls.

[SparklyUnicorn]

True, but you are probably not falling out over who gets to push the button on the elevator either. :/

 

I only have two kids and it seems they are spaced out enough where stuff like this rarely came up.

 

This is not to say they don't have their moments.

 

I try to act goofy in these situations.  Like I might play along.  no no...I want to push the button...me ....me....come on...me!!!!  And then my kids laugh and realize how silly it is. 

[maize]

So I have a story about discernment in parenting.

 

When my mom was a young mother, she was blessed with a first child who was amazingly responsible, compliant, and had superhuman self control. She thought she had this parenting thing all figured out and couldn't understand why other people's children acted up. As she tells the story "then (older brother) and (maize) came along and I learned that my children's behavior had nothing to do with me." :D Anyway, for some time after learning that some of her children could not be controlled without resorting to extreme measures (which she was not willing to do) she continued closely controlling my older sister--after all, with several small children close together it was helpful to have one who always did what she was told! Then one day she had an epiphany and realized that what she was doing with her oldest was not healthy for the child. And she stopped. My mom and sister have had a great relationship ever since, but things could have been very different if mom hadn't looked beyond what was convenient for her.

 

I think there are parents on here who have the discernment to see what is healthy and what is not for their children, and to pick what is good in advice from others and reject what is not. This really has nothing to do with overall value of the advice. Unfortunately many parents for whatever reason are not able to exercise such judgment, and advice that can be taken to an abusive extreme is a very, very dangerous thing in their hands.

[maize]

My parents' pastor is one of these unquestioning obedience, children should be smilinf zombies, abusive a holes. Well he was until one of their children was born with a chromosomal disorder leaving the child profoundly disabled and his eldest child tried to commit suicide because he/she thought his/her own sin probably caused the disorder. Child was not quite ten years old and nearly succeeded.

 

He was a fan of RGT, Pearl's, and Gothard. Recommended them all the time nor any more, but the damage is done and appears to be permanent. That child is entirely screwed up mentally now and shows no sign, despite rigorous, professional help, of coming out of it post two years. Child is now cutting, parents are exhausted with the suicide watches. Numerous individuals in the community believe it is just a matter of time before one of the attempts is successful.

 

Evil. Pure evil. I can never, ever find any gems of "wisdom" in any program of instruction that hints at such vicious, hateful crap. All of these authors should be in prison daily experiencing the traumas they inflicted on innocents. Let them find out what it is like to be abused into a state of depressed, anxiety riddled, zombieism. Let them live every day in fear of being smacked around and beat just for the sin of being human. And may they smile ever so sweetly for their abusers and thank them ever so earnestly for saving their souls.

 

Not disagreeing with most of this, but--I am not willing to place the blame on a parent's shoulders when a child has a mental illness. I just know too many really caring, non abusive parents who have children who have fallen into that abyss.

 

The parenting might have played a role, I'm certainly not in favor of such tactics, but "blame the parents for the child's illness" can be just as dangerous as this child blaming herself for her sibling's disability.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not disagreeing with most of this, but--I am not willing to place the blame on a parent's shoulders when a child has a mental illness. I just know too many really caring, non abusive parents who have children who have fallen into that abyss.

 

The parenting might have played a role, I'm certainly not in favor of such tactics, but "blame the parents for the child's illness" can be just as dangerous as this child blaming herself for her sibling's disability.

 

I totally agree.  You would think given that my parents knew all about mental illness because they experienced it themselves they'd have that all figured out?  Oh no... no no..  My sister was a tough person to deal with.  My parents often got frustrated with her.  It was difficult for both of them.

[MyLittleBears]

Ok, disclamer here- I have not read the Godly tomatoes book. I am familiar with the Ezzo book and Pearl's

.

Yes most people don't take it to extremes probably but I have seen it myself.  I spent some time at a friend's house( who is not abusive nor hot tempered in the least). She had read some of these books. She told her 3 yr old to not jump on the couch. The moment her dd forgot, she did not remind her, she simply took her into the bathroom and spanked her very briefly. A few moment later dd forgot again and again she took her away for a quick spank. This happened repeatedly of the coarse of a few hours. This child spent so much time in the bathroom it was ridiculous. She was not intending to abuse her child but that is exactly what she was doing. My ds with working memory deficient would have forgotten this often and it would have been something beyond his control. I can't imagine doing this to him.

 

I don't think no training is the answer and I agree that most people reading these books DON'T fall into the scary abusive parent mold BUT  the fact that someone would advocate blanket training for a 6 month old, or tripping a toddler into a pool/lake in order to teach them to swim, not feeding a hungry baby, automatically discredits them. It is stupid at best and abusive at worst. I wouldn't consider any advice they gave because these ideas are destructive. I don't think spanking in an of itself is bad. Spanking saved my child's life because I had to swat his bottom at 2yrs old when he kept trying to run into a busy street. But using it to mold Godly character defeats the purpose. Children are not machines that you can manipulate into being Godly. And worse yet I think it misinterprets who God is. He is not standing by to knock you down everytime you mess up. This is the inadvertent message this type of training provokes especially when taken to extremes.

 

 

 

[eternalsummer]

My parents' pastor is one of these unquestioning obedience, children should be smilinf zombies, abusive a holes. Well he was until one of their children was born with a chromosomal disorder leaving the child profoundly disabled and his eldest child tried to commit suicide because he/she thought his/her own sin probably caused the disorder. Child was not quite ten years old and nearly succeeded.

 

He was a fan of RGT, Pearl's, and Gothard. Recommended them all the time nor any more, but the damage is done and appears to be permanent. That child is entirely screwed up mentally now and shows no sign, despite rigorous, professional help, of coming out of it post two years. Child is now cutting, parents are exhausted with the suicide watches. Numerous individuals in the community believe it is just a matter of time before one of the attempts is successful.

 

Evil. Pure evil. I can never, ever find any gems of "wisdom" in any program of instruction that hints at such vicious, hateful crap. All of these authors should be in prison daily experiencing the traumas they inflicted on innocents. Let them find out what it is like to be abused into a state of depressed, anxiety riddled, zombieism. Let them live every day in fear of being smacked around and beat just for the sin of being human. And may they smile ever so sweetly for their abusers and thank them ever so earnestly for saving their souls.

 

 

I think you and I have a similar feeling about this, FaithManor.  

 

I can't see how people can read the RGT website and say, "Well, I'm not sure, I *guess* you could get abuse out of it somehow, but it seems pretty innocuous?"

 

It is riddled through and through with abuse.  The foundation of the philosophy is abusive.  It is not that this episode or that episode that she describes just goes too far; it is the entire idea that you must punish expressions of emotion or resistance or questioning in your child - in fact, you must *cause* these expressions, then punish them, so that your child is completely and totally under your control.  That is the idea behind the website as far as I can see.  That is an evil idea.

 

 

FWIW, we come from very different places to the same conclusion - I was raised without any corporal punishment, ever, not once.  My parents, in fact, were pretty thoroughly hands-off; I spent a lot of time as a young adult figuring out my own schema for right and wrong, as my parents' ideas were neither all that firmly held nor communicated to me with any fervor.

 

Turns out I am a fine human being :)  And I think almost all young adults go through the same process when growing up; it is okay and natural to leave kids with enough agency so that when they are no longer under your daily authority, they can make their own decisions and find their own moral framework, which with any luck incorporates the good parts of yours.

[Liza Q]

BUT! There were good ideas on that site. The "tomato staking" concept makes a TON of sense, and can be easily accomplished with a non-punitive outlook. Almost any relationship can be improved by investing actual time, focused attention on the other person. Having your errant kid hang out with you and do things alongside you is a practically perfect way to form a close bond with them.

 

 

I want to emphasize this. Tomato staking was an extremely helpful concept for me and I don't believe that it needs to be tied to outlasting or anything extreme.

[maize]

Even more mainstream, secular parenting stuff can be problematic if parents don't use discernment regarding the needs and abilities of their own children. Dh and I took a Love and Logic parenting class when our children were young, it advocated using time outs and letting a child come out when they were calm. Didn't take me long to figure out that my three year old absolutely did not have the ability to calm down on her own. She could have ended up in a time out indefinitely if I tried to strictly apply what I had been taught. (I found that a major drawback of that method overall was its emphasis on logic when it was not logic but emotion that was driving behavior. It did have some good points though.)

[MyLittleBears]

nm

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by MyLittleBears

[SparklyUnicorn]

Even more mainstream, secular parenting stuff can be problematic if parents don't use discernment regarding the needs and abilities of their own children. Dh and I took a Love and Logic parenting class when our children were young, it advocated using time outs and letting a child come out when they were calm. Didn't take me long to figure out that my three year old absolutely did not have the ability to calm down on her own. She could have ended up in a time out indefinitely if I tried to strictly apply what I had been taught. (I found that a major drawback of that method overall was its emphasis on logic when it was not logic but emotion that was driving behavior. It did have some good points though.)

 

Definitely.  Even therapists, teachers, doctors, seem to pull stuff out of their who-knows-where sometimes.

 

It makes it difficult! 

[6packofun]

Not to pick on anyone, but I honestly think much of this has to do with a lack of autonomy or some kind of discernment. I have read Sears, Gaskin, Ezzo, What to Expect, a lot of gentle parenting stuff from the LLL book table that I can't remember, TWTM, Charlotte Mason...etc, etc. From birth to school age stuff. There is not one book out there where I've taken it and tried to rigidly apply every single thing in it to the point of distress in my children or myself. I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, but rather to say that I just can't imagine a mindset where people read and then just mindlessly do whatever some other person says to the point of misery. I can't fathom it because why? I know people do it, but I can't figure it out.

 

I didn't stop feeding my hungry baby when I read Ezzo, I didn't stop vaccinating my kids on schedule when I read Sears, I didn't have a homebirth because I read Gaskin, I didn't start beating my kids because I read an article on RGT,my oldest went to school for K and 1st even though we read TWTM.

 

And yet, from each of those books I usually found something to glean that helped me in some way.

 

I am not a perfect parent by any stretch of the imagination. But I just find it so disheartening that apparently there are so many people out there who are looking for a formula that works to make perfectly well-adjusted kids and then try to rigidly apply a formula to human beings. What does encourage me, I guess, is that I know many people in my real life who do not operate this way. I do wonder how much of this stuff is due to a book or books and how much is just the personality of the individual reading the stuff.

 

ABSOLUTELY.  Well said.

[Entropymama]

Tangentially, and maybe I just got lucky somehow, but my kids are not intensly emotional; at least, nobody has been since maybe age four or five at the latest. They aren't criers; they don't throw plates or cuss a blue streak. They don't go bananas because brother used their lego guy and now it's missing or whatever nonsense.

 

I really just think people who are well act well. Emotionally secure people don't make mountains out of molehills; emotionally fragile people do, and one quick, certain route to someone becoming emotionally fragile is for them to feel misunderstood and unsupported. It's hard to be happy when you feel alone and unacceptable.

 

Yes, so much, to the bolded. My mother was (is) bipolar and simply didn't have the emotional stability to manage her life, let alone help her children with their issues. I heard a lot of, "Go to your room until you're pleasant to be around", and it led to believing I was only lovable and valuable if I was cheerful. I don't think it was intentional - it was just her inability to deal with the anger and sadness. It has led to a lifetime of struggle with my own emotions that I'm just now starting to overcome. (Is there a private group for this here? Maybe there should be. Anyone else?)

 

 

 

Is it just a religious thing? (This was a quote but I deleted it and can't get it back!)

 

No, but I can see how religion can play into it. My family was not religious in any way. Neither were my mother's parents, but they were incredibly strict.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

The more I observe my kids the more I believe there is only so much we can control in terms of their personalities and how they react to stuff.  If they happen to be highly sensitive and pessimistic, best we can do is probably get them to keep those thoughts to themselves (sort of...).  We are not actually changing who they are.  (Darn it! I did it again! This one was SparklyUnicorn's)

  

 

So I have a story about discernment in parenting.

 

When my mom was a young mother, she was blessed with a first child who was amazingly responsible, compliant, and had superhuman self control. She thought she had this parenting thing all figured out and couldn't understand why other people's children acted up. As she tells the story "then (older brother) and (maize) came along and I learned that my children's behavior had nothing to do with me." :D

 

 

This was me with my first couple! While we didn't follow the Pearls or anything like that, I did spend the first ten years of parenting believing that if I did it right, my kids would turn out a certain way. Um, no. I thought that my homeschooling, poetry memorizing, Latin learning, art appreciating ways would cause my teenager to reject pop culture and select a (appropriately interesting and unusual) hobby to pursue (preferably that helped disabled children/the earth/the arts) to focus on in her teen years - something she could pursue to the extent that it got her a full ride scholarship to some prestigious university and/or lead her to start a nonprofit at the age of 16. This has not happened. She likes One Direction and hanging out with her friends and is not always chipper about doing dishes. I've had to realize she is perfectly fine; it was my expectations that were wrong. She deserves all the love and care I can give her even if she makes choices that I didn't predict. I can only imagine this is infinitely harder when you do follow the RGT regimen. 

[DesertBlossom]

I read exactly one parenting book. It was a gift. I never read another one because I did not find it helpful at all.

 

I think it is understandable that people are looking for ways to not screw their kids up or to not screw parenting up. I knew nothing about parenting and still don't. There wasn't much parenting going on when when I was a kid, and I suspect this is true for a lot of people. We aren't really taught how to parent. For most of us the only glimpse into what that is like is most of us once had parents, and for many we barely spent much time with our parents at all. So it is not surprising to me that people go looking for some magical step by step method.

Parenting books can be helpful. I've read a bunch of them. :) I've got one kid who has been especially difficult and initially I felt like his behavior was a reflection of my parenting and I felt like I must have been doing something wrong. (And I was, in the sense that I needed to use a different approach with him.) The parenting books that have been enormously helpful were those that helped me understand his personality and how to work with him and not against him. I am still making a lot of mistakes with him, but I feel like I understand him a lot better.

 

Before my oldest was born I stumbled across Babywise at a garage sale. I read that and was determined to schedule him when he was born. The ideas behind it seemed to make sense since I had no actual experience. He was a little bit premature and spent a couple weeks in the NICU and the nurses were rather strict about when I could hold him and nurse him. By the time I got him home I was so glad to just be able to hold him whenever I wanted that Babywise went out the window. It was a blessing in disguise. It wasn't until a few years later that I read how damaging it can be. Now I am happily an on-demand nurser and co-sleeper mostly because I found that so much easier. I am not a schedule follower. Lol.

[happi duck]

Thanks and (hugs) to everyone who has shared stories of painful outcomes.

 

I see dh in what has been shared and it is helpful in understanding the destruction.

 

I can not begin to share how horribly dh and I have been affected by this stuff.

 

I can't be "meh" about this stuff. I hope people stay far away from this philosophy and *never* suggest in passing that someone might find some helpful tips in this book.

 

'You' might be able to spit out the bones but the person you casually mention it to might fall into the muck and generations can end up hurt.

 

*steps off soapbox*