Ideas about poverty and obesity

[kroe1]

People say I am the exception because I eat only fast food 95% of my life. With the exception of a Good Samaritan who brings in Christmas dinner leftovers to the hospital, I eat at McDonald's or some such every meal.

 

I am not fat. I never have been. I recognize the crap I am eating and tone down the portions accordingly. Certainly not all, but most people who eat fast food overeat. For example, there is never a reason that a female needs a Big Mac and medium fries. That is roughly 900 calories. A small cheeseburger and small fries is around 500. That is about what most women can handle per meal. I stand in line watching what people order in front of me. Duh, no wonder they are fat.

 

I am sitting at a Cracker Barrel right now indulging on a Cobb salad. The portion is gigantic. It should feed 3 for a main meal. I will eat 1/3 of it. I do not want to be fat. It is not hard to eat proper sized portions.

 

Teach people portion sizes, convince restaurants to sell proper portion sizes, put proper portion sizes on tv ads, and our perception of proper portion sizes will change, even in the home.

[HomeAgain]

 

Teach people portion sizes, convince restaurants to sell proper portion sizes, put proper portion sizes on tv ads, and our perception of proper portion sizes will change, even in the home.

 

This, too!  Oh, yes!  Several years ago I convinced dh to get rid of our current set of dishes and get ones that were more vintage.  Portion sizes reduced overnight.  Our bowls used to hold TWO CUPS of food!  The borderless plates encouraged filling to the brim.  When we switched, our eating habits changed dramatically.

[Aspasia]

I agree with the premise in the press release. I also think the "sugar tax" and similar attempted deterrants to eating poorly are a terrible idea and do not work. I also do not believe government should attempt to influence eating habits by taxing Twinkies but not avacadoes.

 

I'm absolutely in favor of a sugar tax, and it isn't even necessarily about influencing eating habits. It's the same reason I'm in favor of cigarette taxes. People who smoke end up costing taxpayers a lot of money when their lifestyle choices create serious health problems years down the road. Sugar and obesity do the same thing. Those lifestyle choices end up costing taxpayers a lot of money. Seems fair to me to collect those costs upfront while the choices are being made.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Bucolic

[HomeAgain]

I'm absolutely in favor of a sugar tax, and it isn't even necessarily about influencing eating habits. It's the same reason I'm in favor of cigarette taxes. People who smoke end up costing taxpayers a lot of money when their lifestyle choices create serious health problems years down the road. Sugar and obesity is the same thing. Those lifestyle choices end up costing taxpayers a lot of money. Seems fair to me to collect those costs upfront while the choices are being made.

 

People who smoke consciously choose cigarettes.  With as much hidden sugar as there is in prepared food, it's not a conscious lifestyle choice.  Even roasted sunflower seeds have HFCS added.  Saltine crackers, canned tomatoes, every cereal, pasta sauce, flavored rice, bread, canned soup, most salad dressings.  Are we saying that in order to avoid being taxed extra on top of what they're being taxed for, they should eat organic and only from the outskirts of the grocery?

 

Sure.  That'll work.

 

 

I'd rather see our efforts on taxing go to dropping already unnecessary, biased taxes.  Go get mad about tampons.  Fight obesity at the level of those who provide the food, not those who consume it.

 

And may I remind, our country already got ticked enough about a sugar tax to start a war over it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I didn't read all responses.  Years ago a family member would pick up bags of food from a food pantry to supplement the measly amount of food stamps she received.  I think it was something like $10 a week.  Anyhow, it was bags and bags of garbage.  Basically stuff that gets donated.  One bag had 4 large packs of stuffing cubes.  The person also has diabetes.

 

The reasons I'm sure are complex, but the fact is a lot of food pantry stuff is whatever is shelf stable, whatever gets donated, and that happens to be a lot of junk.  Better than nothing for sure, but definitely it does not help if someone wants to eat healthier.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I put smoking in a very different category because the smoker spews their toxic fumes at those around them.  There is no escaping it in some circumstances.  My mother smoked at one point three packs per day.  We lived in a tiny apartment.  She wouldn't be killing my health by eating 10 boxes of donuts a day, but smoking that much...yes. 

 

I can't defend smoking in any circumstance. 

[Bluegoat]

My experience with dried beans is that they require skill to soak/ cook properly and even more skill to make them taste good. I've tried it a few times and they are always so much worse than canned beans or fast food beans. I don't know why.

 

Maybe others have had that experience too.

 

Soaking isn't really a skill so much as something to remember.

 

Jamie Oliver has a recipe called something like "bbq baked beans with smashed sweet potatoes" which is great and cheap.  Also, lentil soup with bacon is usually a good bet.

[Aspasia]

People who smoke consciously choose cigarettes.  With as much hidden sugar as there is in prepared food, it's not a conscious lifestyle choice.  Even roasted sunflower seeds have HFCS added.  Saltine crackers, canned tomatoes, every cereal, pasta sauce, flavored rice, bread, canned soup, most salad dressings.  Are we saying that in order to avoid being taxed extra on top of what they're being taxed for, they should eat organic and only from the outskirts of the grocery?

 

 

Sure. I imagine there are ways to mark the price tags for foods that include additional taxes. It's not that complicated. And sure, the lower-tax foods would mostly be on the perimeter of the grocery store. That doesn't mean people CAN'T eat all the other food. But we would know what we were buying before we got to the checkout.

 

And it's not like any sugar would be taxable. I would think it wouldn't be difficult for the scientists to come up with some sort of index that takes into account the ratios of sugar to fat to nutrients. 

[Aspasia]

My experience with dried beans is that they require skill to soak/ cook properly and even more skill to make them taste good. I've tried it a few times and they are always so much worse than canned beans or fast food beans. I don't know why.

 

Maybe others have had that experience too.

 

I don't soak my beans. I cook them in my crockpot on high, for 8-12 hours (depending on the bean). Soooo much better than canned. 

[Guest]

I'm absolutely in favor of a sugar tax, and it isn't even necessarily about influencing eating habits. It's the same reason I'm in favor of cigarette taxes. People who smoke end up costing taxpayers a lot of money when their lifestyle choices create serious health problems years down the road. Sugar and obesity is the same thing. Those lifestyle choices end up costing taxpayers a lot of money. Seems fair to me to collect those costs upfront while the choices are being made.

I'm not in favor of excess taxes on cigarettes, either. Why demonize one industry? There are many societal negative effects from alcohol consumption, too, but no excess alcohol tax. Should we tax plastics because they are trashing the environment, killing wildlife and causing cancer in people who their microwave dinner in a plastic container?

 

Additionally, many smokers began smoking before there was any public health awareness of smoking being bad for one's health. Those older folks became hooked on a drug and are now both paying extra taxes for this trick that was played upon them, as well as often paying their own dues in poor health or cancer now. Personally, I think sugar and food additives is the same way. A LOT of people are becoming hooked on drug-like foods; a tax will not curb their addiction, it will only enslave them in additional ways.

 

P.S. I do not smoke and I don't have food addictions.

[Bluegoat]

Smokers don't cost the health system money, they save it.  Every person dies, and the system has to pay for it.  Smokers die younger and quicker than most.

[Murphy101]

This is where a person needs to stop and look at the big picture. Getting a refrigerator should become top priority. I think a lot of the problem is that people aren't being given the skills to think through a little bit longer term.

 

And short term? Get an ice chest. I remember traveling cross country with my mom....i was 10 my brother was 4 /12. We did not eat any fast food. We ate out of an ice chest.

The problem for many of these people is they ARE looking at the big picture and their big issues places a frig not even on the top 10.

 

They are barely making enough to pay the mortgage/rent or maybe they actually aren't even making that. And yet rent needs paid, they often have health issues, even short term or mild ones can devastate them financially for months, they need transport to keep their job and many of them spend a LOT of time just trying to get transport where they need to be, and they get nickel and dimes to death. Work uniform, $25 out of their paycheck. Gas for the car.

 

I've never met someone who didn't have a working kitchen appliance because they just didn't think to make it a priority.

 

And many of them will have an ice chest. But how do you keep it cold? You have to constantly buy ice for it. And if you don't have a frig, you have to walk or get transport to get the ice.

 

It all sounds so easy. Because it is easy when you have resources to make it happen. They often don't.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Murphy101

[Scarlett]

The problem for many of these people is they ARE looking at the big picture and their big issues places a frig not even on the top 10.

 

They are barely making enough to pay the mortgage/rent or maybe they actually aren't even making that. And yet rent needs paid, they often have health issues, even short term or mild ones can devastate them financially for months, they need transport to keep their job and many of them spend a LOT of time just trying to get transport where they need to be, and they get nickel and dimes to death. Work uniform, $25 out of their paycheck. Gas for the car.

 

I've never met someone who didn't have a working kitchen appliance because they just didn't think to make it a priority.

 

And many of them will have an ice chest. But how do you keep it cold? You have to constantly buy ice for it. And if you don't have a frig, you have to walk or get transport to get the ice.

 

It all sounds so easy. Because it is easy when you have resources to make it happen. They often don't.

I don't think it sounds easy. As I said I have never known anyone who doesn't have a frig or stove. And I have known a whole lot of poor people. And I have been one myself. So I guess I just can't conceive of that being people's reality. And if they are that poor why aren't they in public housing where there is a refrigerator and stove.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Smokers don't cost the health system money, they save it.  Every person dies, and the system has to pay for it.  Smokers die younger and quicker than most.

 

I don't even know if that is true.  They may have related chronic conditions for many years before dying so it might be they are costing even more.

 

My grandfather lived to the average age.  He smoked unfiltered cigarettes for 30 years.  He had a laundry list of related conditions that he lived with for many years.  His death was almost an accident.  He was mowing the lawn and had forgotten to carry his inhaler when he had a bad asthma attack.  Nobody was around so he died.  Had he been carrying the inhaler, who knows how much longer he would have lived.

 

I don't necessarily blame people entirely for smoking.  Back in the day it wasn't uncommon for parents to even go out and buy their children cigarettes.  And once hooked it is very difficult to quit. 

 

I blame whoever came up with the damn idea.  I'd like to go back in time and choke whoever is responsible.  Cigarettes have no redeeming value.  Food is a far more complicated thing.  For one thing we can't live without food.  So there is no "out of sight out of mind". 

[Murphy101]

I am not being intentionally unsympathetic. But some of the things you listed are just extreme poverty to the point they should be getting food stamps and wic and government housing. And these situations do need a case by case analysis which just doesn't happen because if there are no government funds for refrigerators then there certainly aren't any for life coaches.

 

And then there are people who refuse any and all good advice and always have an excuse why it won't work in their situation, sometimes getting out of poverty is REALLY difficult. I just don't buy that it is impossible.

This is not extreme poverty. It's very common in poor people in general. Often they ARE on food stamps and or WIC. Keep in mind WIC is only for a family with children under 5. And food stamps is an assisting aid, on average it's a $1 a day per person. (bc I stayed home, I was able to make that almost but not quite enough to get a through a month as a family of four. But if I had put the kids in daycare and worked like everyone told me I should have and like I tried for a time, there's no way it would have lasted us more than maybe 2 weeks. Because careful shopping and careful meal planning takes more time. It just does and I didn't have it.) Govt housing is crazy hard to get. In our state, there is a 2 YEAR wait list. Bc you will not find a neighborhood that wants subsidized housing in their area. It'll bring the property value down don't ya know.

 

It is not impossible. But it IS getting harder and harder for a lot more people.

 

The key for most is what we provide the least.

 

The faster they get help BEFORE the next thing goes wrong, bc in life I guarantee you something else is going to wrong, the more likely they are to get on their feet and stay in their feet.

 

But nearly all our support systems are set up to only kick in when people have very nearly hit bottom.

 

But recovering from financial hits often takes years. If we could help them earlier, we'd probably save millions in helping them spend years recovering.

[hornblower]

Smokers don't cost the health system money, they save it.  Every person dies, and the system has to pay for it.  Smokers die younger and quicker than most.

Cdn research contradicts that. One province did a massive review of this & published results last year. 

 

"if they live 50 years, smokers in Manitoba have an average lifespan into their late 70s and early 80s"

 

Smokers were found to have life expectancy only 1-2 years less than non smokers but "those that were smoking were going to the doctor more, they were in the hospital 20 per cent more, they were staying in hospital longer so 20 per cent more days in hospital, they were using more prescription drugs" (quote from news article. Original report. )

[Scarlett]

This is not extreme poverty. It's very common in poor people in general. Often they ARE on food stamps and or WIC. Keep in mind WIC is only for a family with children under 5. And food stamps is an assisting aid, on average it's a $1 a day per person. (bc I stayed home, I was able to make that almost but not quite enough to get a through a month as a family of four. But if I had put the kids in daycare and worked like everyone told me I should have and like I tried for a time, there's no way it would have lasted us more than maybe 2 weeks. Because careful shopping and careful meal planning takes more time. It just does and I didn't have it.) Govt housing is crazy hard to get. In our state, there is a 2 YEAR wait list. Bc you will not find a neighborhood that wants subsidized housing in their area. It'll bring the property value down don't ya know.

 

It is not impossible. But it IS getting harder and harder for a lot more people.

 

The key for most is what we provide the least.

 

The faster they get help BEFORE the next thing goes wrong, bc in life I guarantee you something else is going to wrong, the more likely they are to get on their feet and stay in their feet.

 

But nearly all our support systems are set up to only kick in when people have very nearly hit bottom.

 

But recovering from financial hits often takes years. If we could help them earlier, we'd probably save millions in helping them spend years recovering.

What the heck is extreme poverty? I consider not having a place to cook to be pretty extreme in this country.

[mom2scouts]

I don't think it sounds easy. As I said I have never known anyone who doesn't have a frig or stove. And I have known a whole lot of poor people. And I have been one myself. So I guess I just can't conceive of that being people's reality. And if they are that poor why aren't they in public housing where there is a refrigerator and stove.

 

We went all of last summer without a refrigerator. Our refrigerator died in spring and dh was working, but very underemployed after looking for work in his field for several years. There was no way we could afford a refrigerator. We couldn't just move into public housing "where there's a refrigerator and stove". We have a house and public housing in our area has a 5 year waiting list. We kept a cooler on the floor of the kitchen and filled it with ice as often as possible. It was NOT a money saving plan. The cost of the ice really started adding up and the food didn't last long. If we didn't eat everything quickly, it went bad. It might have been better financially to eat off the dollar menus of fast food places. We finally were able to get a credit card from a big box store and bought a refrigerator that we could make on payments with a few months of zero percent financing, but it still ended up costing us more.

[hornblower]

What the heck is extreme poverty? I consider not having a place to cook to be pretty extreme in this country.

 

I was so curious I looked up some numbers on your census website 

 

in the lowest quintile of income, 98% have refrigerators, 96.7 have a stove 

 

To me this indicates that these are not significant barriers and can't be considered as one of the major causes of dietary choice leading to obesity

 

http://www.census.gov/hhes/well-being/publications/extended-11.html

[Bluegoat]

Cdn research contradicts that. One province did a massive review of this & published results last year. 

 

"if they live 50 years, smokers in Manitoba have an average lifespan into their late 70s and early 80s"

 

Smokers were found to have life expectancy only 1-2 years less than non smokers but "those that were smoking were going to the doctor more, they were in the hospital 20 per cent more, they were staying in hospital longer so 20 per cent more days in hospital, they were using more prescription drugs" (quote from news article. Original report. )

 

What happens to those who don't live to 50?

 

Anyway - I don't really think something causing death is a particularly good reason to tax it.  We all die in the end.

[Scarlett]

We went all of last summer without a refrigerator. Our refrigerator died in spring and dh was working, but very underemployed after looking for work in his field for several years. There was no way we could afford a refrigerator. We couldn't just move into public housing "where there's a refrigerator and stove". We have a house and public housing in our area has a 5 year waiting list. We kept a cooler on the floor of the kitchen and filled it with ice as often as possible. It was NOT a money saving plan. The cost of the ice really started adding up and the food didn't last long. If we didn't eat everything quickly, it went bad. It might have been better financially to eat off the dollar menus of fast food places. We finally were able to get a credit card from a big box store and bought a refrigerator that we could make on payments with a few months of zero percent financing, but it still ended up costing us more.

A summer isn't lomg. Yes I know while it is happening to you it is long. I went two weeks in the dead of winter without one and it was a pain, but we survived it. You did too. And you managed to get a frig in a few months time. And you managed to keep cooking for your family in the meantime.

[Bluegoat]

Poverty comes in different types, I think.  There are people here in public housing - usually families.  They tend to have stoves.

 

But there is also a group that is living in rooming houses, or actually in many cases in cheap hotels.  They are some of the most insecure people - many have mental illness or addictions, lots of low-cost prostitutes, people that are moving around quite often.

 

Those people have very minimal access to kitchens.

[Laura Corin]

Nickel and Dimed is a good book which talks about how some working people end up living in motels without cooking facilities, then can never save a deposit to move out.

[bolt.]

I am not being intentionally unsympathetic. But some of the things you listed are just extreme poverty to the point they should be getting food stamps and wic and government housing. And these situations do need a case by case analysis which just doesn't happen because if there are no government funds for refrigerators then there certainly aren't any for life coaches.

 

And then there are people who refuse any and all good advice and always have an excuse why it won't work in their situation, sometimes getting out of poverty is REALLY difficult. I just don't buy that it is impossible.

I didn't list anything that indicates "extreme poverty" other than running out of money at the end of a month paying for basics (therefore not having the ability to save up a few hundred dollars for a fridge). I was already assuming we were talking about people getting gov't assistance. (Why would we be talking about people in poverty but not talking about people receiving assistance?)

 

I don't know about government housing, but I assume one must apply and gain approval, and that (while it would secure a fridge and stove) it would not include transportation, toiletries, cleaning supplies, free laundry, or many other things that people generally need an income for.

 

Food prices vary but I do think that almost anywhere groceries for a reasonable meal and ice for an ice chest would cost more than ordering a few dollar menu items -- at least on 'grocery day' it would, if not every day.

 

Some things can be solved by "priorities" but paying the same amount (or extra) to live out of an ice chest and do your own cooking/cleaning while you save for a fridge (by cutting the essentials for a few days per month) -- when you could be doing things an easier way... That is not reasonable -- it ignores the fact that humans do live this way... And that while they are living this way, they are humans, not logic-creatures with iron self-control, able to make any sacrifice for the slightest gain on the far horizon.

 

It *is* intentionally unsympathetic to suggest that better management will stretch a finite amount of money (that already falls short) to cover a slightly more expensive lifestyle and also create a savings fund... Because that would be healthier. It would be. If it wasn't mathematically impossible.

[Scarlett]

I didn't list anything that indicates "extreme poverty" other than running out of money at the end of a month paying for basics (therefore not having the ability to save up a few hundred dollars for a fridge). I was already assuming we were talking about people getting gov't assistance. (Why would we be talking about people in poverty but not talking about people receiving assistance?)

 

I don't know about government housing, but I assume one must apply and gain approval, and that (while it would secure a fridge and stove) it would not include transportation, toiletries, cleaning supplies, free laundry, or many other things that people generally need an income for.

 

Food prices vary but I do think that almost anywhere groceries for a reasonable meal and ice for an ice chest would cost more than ordering a few dollar menu items -- at least on 'grocery day' it would, if not every day.

 

Some things can be solved by "priorities" but paying the same amount (or extra) to live out of an ice chest and do your own cooking/cleaning while you save for a fridge (by cutting the essentials for a few days per month) -- when you could be doing things an easier way... That is not reasonable -- it ignores the fact that humans do live this way... And that while they are living this way, they are humans, not logic-creatures with iron self-control, able to make any sacrifice for the slightest gain on the far horizon.

 

It *is* intentionally unsympathetic to suggest that better management will stretch a finite amount of money (that already falls short) to cover a slightly more expensive lifestyle and also create a savings fund... Because that would be healthier. It would be. If it wasn't mathematically impossible.

Did you see the link unthread about the number of people who are without refrig and stoves. Very few.

 

So you think that everyone who is in poverty ( and I still believe having no frig is extreme poverty) can do no better? They are totally hopeless?

[Murphy101]

What the heck is extreme poverty? I consider not having a place to cook to be pretty extreme in this country.

It can be, but not necessarily. For a lot of people it is temporary. But even temporary is a big indicator of how fragile their situation is.

 

If someone is barely holding things together and their frig or cooktop breaks, they might have to do without fixing/replacing it for 3-6 months.

 

Now that presumes NOTHING else goes wrong for 3-6 months. No one in their house gets sick, bc even if they can afford treatment, that means time off work - usually unpaid. Nothing goes wrong with the car, bc that's a necessity to keep their job. Without their car everything falls apart quickly.

 

And the more poor someone is, the less likely they are going to be on a census. For example, people living in hotels are not on the census. Temporary housing of almost any kind also usually means they aren't counted for various reasons. This is one of the many ways I refer to the poor as invisible and silenced.

 

All I know is if you volunteer for catholic charities or the food bank - you will see these people. And there's way more of them than we think.

 

I live in a somewhat nice area. To me anyways. I'd call it solidly middle to upper middle class. My parish food pantry that runs out of our church serves approx 400 families a month. (ETA: this pantry is NOT just for our fellow parishioners. In fact most aren't. It's community outreach. Anyone of any kind who walks in the door and says they have need is welcome and we do our best to help them.). Often it runs empty bc there just aren't enough donations and people in the parish just go buy food out of their own pockets. Because you have these people who need food whether the pantry is stocked or not. According to govt standards they aren't "extremely poor" but I bet you and I would disagree. In winter they don't have proper clothing. Most of them do have frig and ovens, but they are unable in many ways to use them. A person in a wheelchair or other physical limitation for example who is living in a place that is not accessible to them. But it's the place they can afford. So they use a crock pot plugged in the floor because they can't use the cooktop. They can't reach inside their freezer. Some are just brain fried. It takes all their energy to get out of bed in the morning. Planning ahead for dinner tomorrow night is just... Beyond them. They weren't always like that. But slowly losing everything, watching a loved ones health decline or their own has taken a toll on their mental and emotional health to the point that anything beyond this moment is just more than they can handle. Most of them we get aren't drug addicts or alcoholics. Some might be. But most are extremely depressed. It's easy to understand why so many become addicts of some sort. They obviously need medical help our society does not provide to them. It's called self medicating for a reason and let's get real. Alcohol or cigarettes are cheaper than just about any antidepressant and psych Rx. And seeking help in this country is a degrading lengthy process. We try to help them get services too, but it's not as easy as people think. We know that many will not be able to complete the process. For lots of reasons, not just bc they aren't trying. Most poor people aren't what the media tells us they are and our so called safety net is not really as big or safe as people in media try to convince us it is.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Murphy101

[Murphy101]

Did you see the link unthread about the number of people who are without refrig and stoves. Very few.

 

So you think that everyone who is in poverty ( and I still believe having no frig is extreme poverty) can do no better? They are totally hopeless?

I don't want to come off as thinking they are hopeless. I don't think that.

 

But they need a LOT of help. Long term, expensive and on going help, most likely for at least 2-5 years. Most of which of society doesn't provide and sure doesn't provide easily. And after years of struggling, many of them start to feel hopeless whether they are or not.

 

We have this theme of just get a job and it'll all work out. All our programs are about how to get a job and get off the dole. But about 1/2 of those we see do have jobs, sometimes multiple. And it isn't enough. The other half can't reliably work for lots of reasons. Children or loved ones that need care, their own health issues and a whole list of various causes. And yeah we can say well that's what they get for being dumb enough to have children and a spouse while not financially secure (whatever that means) - but personally I don't think that an ethical or humane response either.

 

It's not hopeless. But they are often isolated and yet they can't do it in their own. They need help and lots of it.

[bolt.]

Did you see the link unthread about the number of people who are without refrig and stoves. Very few.

 

So you think that everyone who is in poverty ( and I still believe having no frig is extreme poverty) can do no better? They are totally hopeless?

Well, since I was responding to a question about what "people with no fridges" should / could do, I assumed that was who we were talking about: no matter how few or many of them there are.

 

Are you trying to tell me that *since* a lack of fridge access is rare, *therefore* your plan actually becomes realistic? For who? The many who have fridges and don't need to follow your plan? Or the few who don't and clearly couldn't follow your plan?

 

---

 

And YES ABSOLUTLELY -- I think the idea that "they" can "do better" in their poverty is complete pile of poop. Most people in poverty (extreme or otherwise) are working 10x as hard as I am just to keep from drowning -- and that they are ABSOLUTLELY already doing the VERY BEST THEY CAN!

 

Why should *they* do better??? How is that "hope"? How is that compassion: I can sit with a screen for 5 minutes and figure out a magical way for the hardest working people I can imagine to work harder."? -- Good job on that hope.

 

Go buy them a fridge. (Most of *us*could save up and buy one, just as you suggested, by making it a priority.)

[Scarlett]

Well, since I was responding to a question about what "people with no fridges" should / could do, I assumed that was who we were talking about: no matter how few or many of them there are.

 

Are you trying to tell me that *since* a lack of fridge access is rare, *therefore* your plan actually becomes realistic? For who? The many who have fridges and don't need to follow your plan? Or the few who don't and clearly couldn't follow your plan?

 

---

 

And YES ABSOLUTLELY -- I think the idea that "they" can "do better" in their poverty is complete pile of poop. Most people in poverty (extreme or otherwise) are working 10x as hard as I am just to keep from drowning -- and that they are ABSOLUTLELY already doing the VERY BEST THEY CAN!

 

Why should *they* do better??? How is that "hope"? How is that compassion: I can sit with a screen for 5 minutes and figure out a magical way for the hardest working people I can imagine to work harder."? -- Good job on that hope.

 

Go buy them a fridge. (Most of *us*could save up and buy one, just as you suggested, by making it a priority.)

I didn't say do better by working harder. But there are ways out. Maybe people need help getting the help.

 

And there are also people who keep making one bad decision after another even while people in their lives are trying to help them. Maybe they are are addicts or mentally ill. I dont know. But I do know a lot of people who absolutely could do better if they just made better choices.

[AimeeM]

This is where a person needs to stop and look at the big picture. Getting a refrigerator should become top priority. I think a lot of the problem is that people aren't being given the skills to think through a little bit longer term.

 

And short term? Get an ice chest. I remember traveling cross country with my mom....i was 10 my brother was 4 /12. We did not eat any fast food. We ate out of an ice chest.

Ice costs - daily. If you haven't a fridge, then you haven't a freezer (more than likely) and you have no way to secure "free" ice for an ice chest.

 

You are basing an idea off the assumption that somebody has money - any money - to spare to put aside for a fridge AND, in the mean time, buy an ice chest and keep it stocked with ice (more money daily). Odds are, if they can only afford crap food and haven't a fridge, they are the kind of poverty that means they have NO extra money to spend on those things.

 

Sadly, it seems that many food banks are unable to accept whole foods and healthy foods. It was explained to me once, but I forget the reasons (legal, safety, and oversight related) - but they aren't able to accept frozen foods, foods that need to be refrigerated, fresh vegetables, or fresh fruit. I *think* it had to do with dhec regulations. Regardless, it sucks that I can't donate bulk chicken breasts (that are individually wrapped, so they could be distributed even more), bulk vegetables, etc - it would be easy enough to pick up when I hit Costco. 

[Scarlett]

It can be, but not necessarily. For a lot of people it is temporary. But even temporary is a big indicator of how fragile their situation is.

 

If someone is barely holding things together and their frig or cooktop breaks, they might have to do without fixing/replacing it for 3-6 months.

 

Now that presumes NOTHING else goes wrong for 3-6 months. No one in their house gets sick, bc even if they can afford treatment, that means time off work - usually unpaid. Nothing goes wrong with the car, bc that's a necessity to keep their job. Without their car everything falls apart quickly.

 

And the more poor someone is, the less likely they are going to be on a census. For example, people living in hotels are not on the census. Temporary housing of almost any kind also usually means they aren't counted for various reasons. This is one of the many ways I refer to the poor as invisible and silenced.

 

All I know is if you volunteer for catholic charities or the food bank - you will see these people. And there's way more of them than we think.

 

I live in a somewhat nice area. To me anyways. I'd call it solidly middle to upper middle class. My parish food pantry that runs out of our church serves approx 400 families a month. (ETA: this pantry is NOT just for our fellow parishioners. In fact most aren't. It's community outreach. Anyone of any kind who walks in the door and says they have need is welcome and we do our best to help them.). Often it runs empty bc there just aren't enough donations and people in the parish just go buy food out of their own pockets. Because you have these people who need food whether the pantry is stocked or not. According to govt standards they aren't "extremely poor" but I bet you and I would disagree. In winter they don't have proper clothing. Most of them do have frig and ovens, but they are unable in many ways to use them. A person in a wheelchair or other physical limitation for example who is living in a place that is not accessible to them. But it's the place they can afford. So they use a crock pot plugged in the floor because they can't use the cooktop. They can't reach inside their freezer. Some are just brain fried. It takes all their energy to get out of bed in the morning. Planning ahead for dinner tomorrow night is just... Beyond them. They weren't always like that. But slowly losing everything, watching a loved ones health decline or their own has taken a toll on their mental and emotional health to the point that anything beyond this moment is just more than they can handle. Most of them we get aren't drug addicts or alcoholics. Some might be. But most are extremely depressed. It's easy to understand why so many become addicts of some sort. They obviously need medical help our society does not provide to them. It's called self medicating for a reason and let's get real. Alcohol or cigarettes are cheaper than just about any antidepressant and psych Rx. And seeking help in this country is a degrading lengthy process. We try to help them get services too, but it's not as easy as people think. We know that many will not be able to complete the process. For lots of reasons, not just bc they aren't trying. Most poor people aren't what the media tells us they are and our so called safety net is not really as big or safe as people in media try to convince us it is.

i also don't buy into the "don't have children unless you are financially secure" mindset. Lots of people were financially secure before they had children and then things happen and they no longer are secure. However, maybe don't have 3 kids by three different men by the time you are 20 and then refuse any and all advice about how to get your life better. ( a cousin of mine).

 

Thanks for sharing your experience with the food bank. Really I just don't have experience with situations like what you describe. I come from a small elitist town where even the poor ( my family) had help and options. So thanks for opening my eyes to reality. Very sad.

[goldberry]

  We moved from MO to Colorado Springs this summer and my beans have sucked since then (lentils are mostly fine); I didn't realize until I read regentrude's post a few pages ago that I was high elevation now!  It doesn't feel high because I can see the mountains from my house and I am definitely not in them :)

 

 

 

I'm up in those mountains you're lookin' at!  Can you see me waving?? ;)

[goldberry]

Just an FYI.....a persons body becomes used to beans if eaten more regularly.

 

I don't know about that.  I adore beans.  For awhile we always had a bean mixture (beans, salsa, tomatoes, etc) around to have on chips or in burritos.  We ate it often for close to a month and the uh, discomfort only got worse the more we ate.  DH finally requested no more beans. 

[Murphy101]

I didn't say do better by working harder. But there are ways out. Maybe people need help getting the help.

 

And there are also people who keep making one bad decision after another even while people in their lives are trying to help them. Maybe they are are addicts or mentally ill. I dont know. But I do know a lot of people who absolutely could do better if they just made better choices.

You know what? I agree. I can sure think of people I know IRL who make really dumb choices. I sorta want to smack them upside the head in hopes it'll knock a clue in. So I get that. (I bet there's people on this board that think I'm one of them too. That idiot with 10 kids! )

 

BUT

 

You know what else? They are making the exact same dumbass choices as everyone else from any other socieoeconomic demographic. But they are the only ones suffering for it.

 

I've yet to meet a poor person who is that way bc they made some wild crazy decision that no other demographic does.

 

There is no demographic that doesn't use drugs, have sex, mismanage finances, have employment problems, have children outside of marriage or in an unstable marriage.

 

The ONLY thing that differentiates poor people from the others is poor people can't afford to screw up. Money insulates from consequences. And they don't have that insulation. They don't get to make mistakes without paying a exponitially higher price for it. And they are the only demographic that also gets shamed when they can't afford that price.

[goldberry]

Smokers don't cost the health system money, they save it.

 

 

 

Do you have any support for that?  Because that seems to be the most counterintuitive thing I've ever heard.  I would be interested in exploring the facts.

[Rosie_0801]

Ok you guys who are fearful of beans, get someone to send you a kombucha scoby. It'll help. I'm sure it will help.  :crying:

[Murphy101]

Do you have any support for that? Because that seems to be the most counterintuitive thing I've ever heard. I would be interested in exploring the facts.

Idk. I guess it would depend where the smoker falls in the economic ladder.

 

If they can afford insurance and treatment, then that's going to cost the system for possibly many years as it extends their life.

 

If they can't, well, they might cost the system in many ways (most notable ER as dr appt type things) but yes, I suspect they would absolutely die faster.

 

Either way I don't think it's cheaper than not smoking though. For them or the system.

 

ETA: that's not even considering that death in America is damned expensive.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Murphy101

[Arcadia]

A 5lb bag of cheap russet potatoes used to be cheap. Like $2. Baked potatoes used to be a cheap fairly easy meal, but it's down right expensive now.

My DS11 bought a 10lb bag of russet potatoes from Grocery Outlet for 99 cents to make mashed potatoes for himself.

 

Carbohydrates items are lots cheaper at Grocery Outlet if you pick from sale items. Meat and vegetables are a lot pricier in comparison and less often on sale.

[poppy]

Today I had to buy food in the city at the Family Dollar, which is the main grocery store in that area.   I was supposed to buy chickpeas. (Long boring story involving my daughter's OT counseling....)

 

There was a row of chips and cookies. There was a row of pasta.  There was a row with spices.  Muffin mix. Mac and cheese.  Ramen noodles.  There was a small section with canned veggies: green beans, peas, corn, potatoes.  No canned beans.  No dried beans. No produce.  

 

I sure am glad that I have better grocery stores nearby, and a vehicle to get me to them, and time to shop.

[Debbi in Texas]

I don't soak my beans. I cook them in my crockpot on high, for 8-12 hours (depending on the bean). Soooo much better than canned. 

 

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person on the boards who doesn't soak beans. I don't want to pour out the flavor and I can't tell it makes any difference in the digestion.

[Artichoke]

I was beginning to wonder if I was the only person on the boards who doesn't soak beans. I don't want to pour out the flavor and I can't tell it makes any difference in the digestion.

 

 

I'm the opposite.  I never soaked our beans until a few years ago.  Now, I soak overnight in warm water and ACV.  It's supposed to make the beans easier to digest.   

[Rosie_0801]

I've noticed a big difference in digestibility if I slosh in a bit of apple cider vinegar or kombucha. Plain water doesn't seem to help much.

[Murphy101]

I've noticed a big difference in digestibility if I slosh in a bit of apple cider vinegar or kombucha. Plain water doesn't seem to help much.

I vomit a bit in my mouth just thinking about trying kombucha or eggplant in any form ever again.

 

Usually even if I think a food is gross, I'll try it bc hey this could be the one edible way I like it.

 

But not kombucha, eggplant, or oysters. I literally threw up when I tried those I found the taste and texture so repulsive.

[Rosie_0801]

I vomit a bit in my mouth just thinking about trying kombucha or eggplant in any form ever again.

 

Usually even if I think a food is gross, I'll try it bc hey this could be the one edible way I like it.

 

But not kombucha, eggplant, or oysters. I literally threw up when I tried those I found the taste and texture so repulsive.

 

You haven't had *my* kombucha. ;)

 

And I shan't lose all hope that you can enjoy eggplant until you've eaten it at a Uyghur restaurant. 

 

I'll be happy to share/ buy you dinner if you're ever on this side of the planet. :p

 

 

Raw apple cider vinegar costs about $8 for about a quart (or what I think a US quart is- I'm trying to be culturally relative here,) and my kombucha costs next to nothing and works quite nicely in my beans, which also cost next to nothing. I use it in guacamole if I don't have any limes too.

Edited April 1, 2016 by Rosie_0801

[Murphy101]

You haven't had *my* kombucha. ;)

 

And I shan't lose all hope that you can enjoy eggplant until you've eaten it at a Uyghur restaurant.

 

I'll be happy to share/ buy you dinner if you're ever on this side of the planet. :p

 

 

Raw apple cider vinegar costs about $8 for about a quart (or what I think a US quart is- I'm trying to be culturally relative here,) and my kombucha costs next to nothing and works quite nicely in my beans, which also cost next to nothing. I use it in guacamole if I don't have any limes too.

I use ACV all the time. I buy it in a big gallon jug thing at SAMs. Lots and lots of cooking and household uses for ACV.

 

I'd love to visit Australia. My son is saving up to visit the "Island where all the deadliest things are trying to kill you." As he refers to it. lol

[Scarlett]

You know what? I agree. I can sure think of people I know IRL who make really dumb choices. I sorta want to smack them upside the head in hopes it'll knock a clue in. So I get that. (I bet there's people on this board that think I'm one of them too. That idiot with 10 kids! )

 

BUT

 

You know what else? They are making the exact same dumbass choices as everyone else from any other socieoeconomic demographic. But they are the only ones suffering for it.

 

I've yet to meet a poor person who is that way bc they made some wild crazy decision that no other demographic does.

 

There is no demographic that doesn't use drugs, have sex, mismanage finances, have employment problems, have children outside of marriage or in an unstable marriage.

 

The ONLY thing that differentiates poor people from the others is poor people can't afford to screw up. Money insulates from consequences. And they don't have that insulation. They don't get to make mistakes without paying a exponitially higher price for it. And they are the only demographic that also gets shamed when they can't afford that price.

I guess that is the lesson my mom learned. There is no margin for error. Enough stuff goes wrong anyways so don't add to it by doing stupid stuff.

 

Even people with money eventually burn all their bridges. Dh was telling me the story today of an older man he overheard talking to his adult son....telling him he could not spend the night....and the locks had all been changed...and if he shows up the police would,be called. This is a very adult son....who has been given chance after chance after chance.

 

Or the guy my boss continued to help way past what others thought he should. it was ridiculous what all help this guy had. Even after he came back from 4 months in jail for felony DUI. Finally my boss had enough....laid him off, and told him not to come back.

 

What it boils down to is we all have to work with what we do or do not have. We have to take responsibility for our own life. But I agree the poorest among us need help. I don't know the answer though.

[Rosie_0801]

I use ACV all the time. I buy it in a big gallon jug thing at SAMs. Lots and lots of cooking and household uses for ACV.

 

I'd love to visit Australia. My son is saving up to visit the "Island where all the deadliest things are trying to kill you." As he refers to it. lol

 

Says the peoples with coyotes and bears and rattlesnakes. Most of our deadly stuff can be killed with a shoe.

[Murphy101]

The answer is to poor people who need help is

 

 

 

Help them.

 

 

I'll admit there's a line between helping and enabling. But I'm never going to be convinced that making sure every citizen who wants it has the basic necessities of life: food, clean water, adaquate shelter, medical - is enabling.

 

In every way that I have been "smart" because it turned out okay, it could have turned out just like some of these people. There was a time when I would never have believed that. Bc pride. Bc no one wants to think they could be like "those" people. But I know better now and it's quite humbling.

[Murphy101]

Says the peoples with coyotes and bears and rattlesnakes. Most of our deadly stuff can be killed with a shoe.

Ack! That's doesn't help. All those creepy little epithets. Most people are not surprised to find a coyote, bear, or rattlesnake in their bed or shoe and suffer an unsuspected potentially deadly encounter.

[Scarlett]

The answer is to poor people who need help is

 

 

 

Help them.

 

 

I'll admit there's a line between helping and enabling. But I'm never going to be convinced that making sure every citizen who wants it has the basic necessities of life: food, clean water, adaquate shelter, medical - is enabling.

 

In every way that I have been "smart" because it turned out okay, it could have turned out just like some of these people. There was a time when I would never have believed that. Bc pride. Bc no one wants to think they could be like "those" people. But I know better now and it's quite humbling.

Ha. If you knew how I lie awake nights worry about every conceivable thing that could go wrong.