Ideas about poverty and obesity

[hornblower]

What is in WIC is subject to intense lobbying by the food manufacturers and you can bet the dairy industry, as well as the other powerful segments are all over it.  The latest battle that i know was in 2015 over potatoes. Marion Nestle (author of Food Politics) did a couple write ups of it. 

It took vegetarian & vegan activists ages to get soy & tofu to be avail in WIC without prescription but apparently that's actually still not implemented in all states... 


I think 'junk' food can make a lot of financial sense, esp if you look at calories / dollar.

Though rice & beans & lentils + potatoes, onions & whatever veg is in season is the most efficient way to get nutritious high value calories, people don't have time or ability to cook & prepare these foods properly. 


As for the obesity & intelligence thing.... I think part of that unfair judgement that someone above mentioned is coming from data indicating that statistically obesity is correlated with lower education levels. Of course lower education levels are also correlated with poverty, reduced access to services, and just overall lower choice in many things in life... but some people have come to believe there's a causality involved, instead of a correlation.  

[Carol in Cal.]

The other thing is that it's hard to keep produce fresh.

So food banks don't always have it, or the stuff they have is about to be spoiled.

I'm on the board of a small hunger nonprofit, and without our fridge and freezer, we would still be passing out grains/beans/canned/boxed stuff, but we wouldn't be able to supply fresh produce except things like potatoes and onions that keep at room temps.  No fresh meat at all.

And some of our clients don't have access to fridge space at home.  It makes it hard.

 

Moral of the story:  If you have an old fridge that you don't want anymore, call your local food bank and ask whether one of their outlets could use it.  It might make a huge difference for a lot of people.

[LucyStoner]

This reminds me of the girl/young woman I saw in a grocery store. Not Wal-Mart where I shop for my family but the fancy grocery store where I shop for my boss. She had an I-Phone and she was using the calculator at the same time she was counting out change. Eventually she picked up and weighed 2 apples and bagged them and left. I was dying to know her story. Is that all the money she had and she was choosing an apple? Or like me did she never have cash on her and didn't want to use her debit card to purchase 2 apples? Sigh. I will never know.

 

And yes I buy those 1.34 frozen pizzas for my 16 year old for a quick 'bad' snack.

Maybe she really likes to be precise. My son like to (mentally) tally the cost of any by the pound item when we shop even though I definitely don't need him too.

 

I paid $50 for my iPhone (used from a friend so I knew it wasn't stolen and far from the newest model!) so I don't assume that anyone with a smart phone necessarily has money. Especially now that there are fairly cheap pay as you go plans. We do use a major carrier, but we get a major discount from them via my husband's employer.

Edited March 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Murphy101]

What is in WIC is subject to intense lobbying by the food manufacturers and you can bet the dairy industry, as well as the other powerful segments are all over it. The latest battle that i know was in 2015 over potatoes. Marion Nestle (author of Food Politics) did a couple write ups of it.

 

It took vegetarian & vegan activists ages to get soy & tofu to be avail in WIC without prescription but apparently that's actually still not implemented in all states...

 

 

I think 'junk' food can make a lot of financial sense, esp if you look at calories / dollar.

 

Though rice & beans & lentils + potatoes, onions & whatever veg is in season is the most efficient way to get nutritious high value calories, people don't have time or ability to cook & prepare these foods properly.

 

 

As for the obesity & intelligence thing.... I think part of that unfair judgement that someone above mentioned is coming from data indicating that statistically obesity is correlated with lower education levels. Of course lower education levels are also correlated with poverty, reduced access to services, and just overall lower choice in many things in life... but some people have come to believe there's a causality involved, instead of a correlation.

Potatoes and onions. Every. Single. Meal. Growing up. Welcome to being of Irish and German origins.

 

I didn't realize how dependent I was on those in our meals until I was pregnant with baby #9. While pregnant I could not eat or even smell either one. Poor dh and I thought I was gonna starve there for a brief time bc every single time we thought of a meal to make, oh it has onions or potatoes. Lol

 

But dang. A 5lb bag of cheap russet potatoes used to be cheap. Like $2. Baked potatoes used to be a cheap fairly easy meal, but it's down right expensive now.

 

I was shocked to see a 1lb bag of yellow onions was nearly $2 the other day.

 

Wth? I'm too young to feel like them old codgers who lament back when I was young I could buy .25 loaf of breads and a pound of onions were never more than .89 and that was the fancy new fangled 'organic' onions. The cheap ones were closer to .49 a pound.

[LucyStoner]

Though rice & beans & lentils + potatoes, onions & whatever veg is in season is the most efficient way to get nutritious high value calories, people don't have time or ability to cook & prepare these foods properly.

 

 

Beside cooking knowledge and time there is also the issue of kitchen access. At one point when I was a child we lived for almost a year in a motel with a kitchenette (it was via a shelter program). My dad can cook but there was limited space for more than a couple of days of food at a time and what one can make in on a single working burner is rather limited. The little oven just didn't work well or consistently. That year we ate a lot of macaroni and sauce and precooked meats (like hotdogs chopped up in the macaroni) because the burners didn't get hot enough to ensure proper cooking of raw meat. No kitchen or a kitchen that is broken or not stocked with pots and pans makes it easier for a lot of families to rely on what cooks ok in a microwave or mixes with hot water from an electric kettle. Edited March 31, 2016 by LucyStoner

[hornblower]

Potatoes and onions. Every. Single. Meal. Growing up. Welcome to being of Irish and German origins.

I'm Polish. 

Every once in a while I come home with bags of potatoes, onions & beets, throw a dishcloth on my head & proclaim in highly accented English "we can eat for a month!"  

So much of my family cooking was essentially a 1001 things to make out of a potato. Dumplings! Pierogi! Pancakes! 

 

[regentrude]

But dang. A 5lb bag of cheap russet potatoes used to be cheap. Like $2. Baked potatoes used to be a cheap fairly easy meal, but it's down right expensive now.

 

I was shocked to see a 1lb bag of yellow onions was nearly $2 the other day.

 

Wth? I'm too young to feel like them old codgers who lament back when I was young I could buy .25 loaf of breads and a pound of onions were never more than .89 and that was the fancy new fangled 'organic' onions. The cheap ones were closer to .49 a pound.

 

This is completely off topic, but just wanted to let you know: you can still get those cheap.

Yellow onions at Aldi this week are 3 lb bag for $0.69. That's 23 ct per pound.

And a 5 lb bag of red potatoes is $0.99 .

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

Beside cooking knowledge and time there is also the issue of kitchen access. At one point when I was a child we lived for almost a year in a motel with a kitchenette (it was via a shelter program). My dad can cook but there was limited space for more than a couple of day food at a time and what one can make in on a single working burner is rather limited. The little oven just didn't work well or consistently. That year we ate a lot of macaroni and sauce and precooked meats (like hotdogs chopped up in the macaroni) because the burners didn't get hot enough to ensure proper cooking of raw meat. No kitchen or a kitchen that is broken or not stocked with pots and pans makes it easier for a lot of families to rely on what cooks ok in a microwave or mixes with hot water from an electric kettle.

I think most of it is about time though. I mean how often have one of us thought, "I'll put this (beans or whatever) in the crockpot so dinner will be ready when we get home." And forgot? It's not like we are super humans and the poorer someone is the less able or intelligent they are. They do the same "dumb" crap we do like fall asleep or run out the door for work/school and forget to make the crockpot. The difference is, I am now fortunate enough to be able to just make something else or speed up the cooking in the oven. But the poorer one is, the more severe any lapse or minor issue is. They can't just go buy something else. Or the oven doesn't work. Or they are only home for 45 minutes before they have to go to the next job. And the majority of these people are on their own. They aren't married with someone they can count on to help haul the load of getting through life.

 

So they carefully plan their menu around quick and easy and nearly guaranteed to have no problems. Who could reasonably blame them or argue that isn't the smart thing for them to do?

[Murphy101]

This is completely off topic, but just wanted to let you know: you can still get those cheap.

Yellow onions at Aldi this week are 3 lb bag for $0.69. That's 23 ct per pound.

And a 5 lb bag of red potatoes is $0.99 .

I stopped buying produce at Aldi's. I otherwise love them and probably do 80% of my shopping there. Of course if I had no choice, that's what I'd do. But for reasons I don't know, their produce no matter how good it looks when I buy it - goes bad literally within 24 hours of buying. I have no idea why. I would literally buy onions or strawberries or whatever and the very next day it would be a moldy or squishy mess. *confused*

 

I will still buy some things, but my rule is to only buy it if I have time to go home and rinse it all, soak it in vinegar or a splash of bleach and prep it for use within 2 days. That's the only way I can seem to actually use the produce before it goes bad. And wasted food is the most expensive kind IMO.

 

We have a Sprouts here now and they are often really cheap compared to the wackomart and such grocery stores.

[Scarlett]

Beside cooking knowledge and time there is also the issue of kitchen access. At one point when I was a child we lived for almost a year in a motel with a kitchenette (it was via a shelter program). My dad can cook but there was limited space for more than a couple of day food at a time and what one can make in on a single working burner is rather limited. The little oven just didn't work well or consistently. That year we ate a lot of macaroni and sauce and precooked meats (like hotdogs chopped up in the macaroni) because the burners didn't get hot enough to ensure proper cooking of raw meat. No kitchen or a kitchen that is broken or not stocked with pots and pans makes it easier for a lot of families to rely on what cooks ok in a microwave or mixes with hot water from an electric kettle.

 

 

I am not sure what time period that happened....I think I am quite a bit older than you.  But when I was 8 in 1973 my mom was newly divorced with 2 kids.  My brother was 3 1/2.  I didn't know anyone else who was divorced.  We were definitely in poverty.  My mom worked her fingers to the bone packing apples.  But never, not one time did we not have a refrigerator and stove.  Even now I have never known someone in that situation.  

 

However, I believe that there is a huge segment of society without a proper kitchen.  I believe it because I read so much about it, here and elsewhere.

 

That to me is a huge issue.  How can you prepare meals without a kitchen?  

[Murphy101]

I'm Polish.

Every once in a while I come home with bags of potatoes, onions & beets, throw a dishcloth on my head & proclaim in highly accented English "we can eat for a month!"

So much of my family cooking was essentially a 1001 things to make out of a potato. Dumplings! Pierogi! Pancakes!

 

Lol

 

Mmmmmm. Beets. Mmmmm. Heat them up and drain and then toss with some balsa lambic vinegar, lemon juice and salt.... Mmmmmm.

 

Now I need beets.

[Carol in Cal.]

Around here the big issues are storage and cooking space.

 

If you have a family of 3 (mom and two kids) living in one room, no furniture except for a bed for the mom, clothes piled up against the wall, with 'kitchen privileges' shared with 5 other families in the single family house, these are people who cannot buy food in bulk or cook ahead or leave something cooking while they go to work/school, because there is simply no secure place to keep or do those things.

 

Rent is sky high. 

 

If our nonprofit gets turkeys to give away, a lot of our families cannot physically cook them; or if they can, they can't store the cooked meat that they don't eat at that one sitting.  They don't have someone at home to cook things, so they have to be able to get stuff that is ready very fast, generally. 

[Scarlett]

But back to the issue of poverty and obesity.  My mom fed us well.  For the times, for the situation she was in.  She made a garden in the summer when she could...or helped out friends with their gardens when she couldn't.  We had vegetables often.  Along with the potatoes and beans and cornbread.  Milk. Some meat.  And none of us were over weight.  My mom was underweight...I think because she worked non stop.  My brother and I were never overweight.  I still am not.  At age 50.

 

So I don't know what the difference is.  

[Carol in Cal.]

And what about herbs and spices???  Have you ever priced those?  And where do people in that circumstance KEEP them, assuming they can get them?  They cannot buy in bulk.  They need those little bottles, no choice in the matter.

 

The year that the food bank got a bunch of baking spices, they were hugely popular with our clients, so much so that I organized a little grant to buy some jars of herbs and give them out. 

 

Imagine how boring potatoes and onions are to start with, and then consider not having anything except maybe salt to flavor them with.

 

Shop your pantries, ladies, and donate that kind of thing that you know you will never use.  You will make a difference.

[38carrots]

One thing that I see as a teacher, and know from my experience as a parent, is that it's incredibly rewarding to be able to give your kid things that make him happy.  I know I get more excited than my kid about his Christmas presents.  As a middle class parent, I can give my kid lots of things that he likes, like a trip to a local playground, or an afterschool activity, or a new book, or a trip to the zoo and a stuffed animal at the end.  When I've worked with low income kids, I see parents with the same desire, and 50 cents in their pocket, and the bus to the playground costs $4.00 for your family round trip, it's got to be tempting to make them smile with that package of Hot Fries from the guy on the corner.  

 

So much truth to this.

[Murphy101]

I am not sure what time period that happened....I think I am quite a bit older than you. But when I was 8 in 1973 my mom was newly divorced with 2 kids. My brother was 3 1/2. I didn't know anyone else who was divorced. We were definitely in poverty. My mom worked her fingers to the bone packing apples. But never, not one time did we not have a refrigerator and stove. Even now I have never known someone in that situation.

 

However, I believe that there is a huge segment of society without a proper kitchen. I believe it because I read so much about it, here and elsewhere.

 

That to me is a huge issue. How can you prepare meals without a kitchen?

This is not because it isn't a common problem.

 

It's because most people are extremely ashamed to admit they are in these situations and don't talk about it. And because of the way our society is set up, most of these people live isolated and invisible and silenced bc of that shame and social expectations.

 

As their economic situation worsened they just couldn't afford to maintain anything. Not their own medical needs, and not their broken 20 yr old oven. It's a slow painful decent. Most people don't seek help until they are down and out and have no other option. Most are ashamed and humiliated by their situation. They tell their kids to not speak about it for fear a teacher will think them unfit to keep their child. They hide it from coworkers so they won't be viewed as too stupid for promotions or whatever. Being poor, and absolutely looking poor, is considered shameful in our country. And sadly, society gives them more reasons to hide and be silent than to expect genuine help and dignity.

 

eta: I suspect you underestimate how hard your mother worked to hide some of the help she got from her community, which is a huge thing. And also, sheer good luck.

 

I know for myself, my community and sheer good luck have sometimes been the onky thing that kept us out of the poor house so to speak. But those are things my kids never saw or really knew about. Quiet blessings are often the deepest.

Edited March 30, 2016 by Murphy101

[Scarlett]

This is not because it isn't a common problem.

 

It's because most people are extremely ashamed to admit they are in these situations and don't talk about it. And because of the way our society is set up, most of these people live isolated and invisible and silenced bc of that shame and social expectations.

 

As their economic situation worsened they just couldn't afford to maintain anything. Not their own medical needs, and not their broken 20 yr old oven. It's a slow painful decent. Most people don't seek help until they are down and out and have no other option. Most are ashamed and humiliated by their situation. They tell their kids to not speak about it for fear a teacher will think them unfit to keep their child. They hide it from coworkers so they won't be viewed as too stupid for promotions or whatever. Being poor, and absolutely looking poor, is considered shameful in our country. And sadly, society gives them more reasons to hide and be silent than to expect genuine help and dignity.

 

eta: I suspect you underestimate how hard your mother worked to hide some of the help she got from her community, which is a huge thing. And also, sheer good luck.

 

I know for myself, my community and sheer good luck have sometimes been the onky thing that kept us out of the poor house so to speak. But those are things my kids never saw or really knew about. Quiet blessings are often the deepest.

 

 

Very sad people have to hide their living conditions.

 

No, though my mom didn't hide anything from me.  LOL....I wish she had.  I can still remember her writing down the list of bills and telling me how much money we had until pay day.  Our help came in the form of our congregation.  Not that anyone was paying her way but help in encouragement and being a friend....Or the time a distant cousin made her go down to the tire store and charge a set of tires to him.  Or the time some still unknown person gave us a gift card to the local health food store.  Or the time an elderly lady friend from out of state sent my mom $100 check when she was down to pennies.  Those were times spread out over a long period of time.  But yes a lot of luck involved.

 

But.  My mom also was very very careful to not blow our resources on anything not necessary.  She didn't go out.  She didn't date.  She didn't smoke or drink.  She worked, took care of us kids and made us a life with good friends. I think often people in poverty get so mired in the hopelessness of it that they give up and give in to addictions or whatever.  She rarely felt hopeless.  If so, not for long.

 

 

[goldberry]

I remember being on very low funds and knew that people ate beans and rice when they had no money.  I bought a giant container of dry beans (which I had never cooked before).  I live at extremely high altitude (9500 ft).  I cooked those beans for two and 1/2 days before they were soft enough to eat. It was a nightmare!  My friend later said, "Oh, you really need a pressure cooker to cook dry beans here..." If I was making dried beans of course I don't have money for a pressure cooker...  I remember being very frustrated by the whole process and thinking I should just go to Taco Bell and get some cheap burritos.

Edited March 30, 2016 by goldberry

[hornblower]

This just reminded me of Michael Palin's Around the World in 80 Days. Remember the Ancient Mariners episode where he's on a little ship & there's a cook who makes 3 meals a day for something like 20 people in a little tiny galley on the deck?  
It would be an incredible skill to have.

I keep thinking that our schools should be teaching the principles of simple food prep and cooking & showing kids that cooking is not opening a box or a jar of something.... but that it also doesn't have to be overly complicated and fancy and requiring special implements and tools.
 

[SKL]

Recent posts remind me of one of our meals as a kid:  "bread and gravy."  Bread that's getting stale covered in gravy from some past meal.  My mom used to talk it up like it was gourmet.  :P

[Murphy101]

I remember shortly after I got married (@ 19) and we were at some gathering at my mil's and she asked me to slice some cheese for the dinner prep. Sure. No problem. I can slice cheese. So I got a knife out and started thin slicing the cheese.

 

To which my mil silently looked at me like I was stupid and handed me a cheese slicer. I had no idea such a thing even existed. Growing up we had a big meat knife for cutting meats and we had the small kitchen knife for all else. Peeling potatoes, cutting lettuce, cheese... Whatever.

 

We had no salad spinners (something I still don't own or understand) cheese and egg slicers or special peeler gadgets.

 

I still don't. I have an assortment of kitchen knives and go figure we still mange.

 

But I have had people visiting who went in my kitchen to help prep a dinner or whatever and were very confused bc I didn't have some gadget they consider a kitchen staple. They literally don't know how to do it wiyh just a knife or whatever.

[Murphy101]

Recent posts remind me of one of our meals as a kid: "bread and gravy." Bread that's getting stale covered in gravy from some past meal. My mom used to talk it up like it was gourmet. :P

Cowboy gravy!!!!!! Always yellow for some reason. I suspect bc it was the least used of the food coloring combo pkgs.

 

A morning when grandma made cowboy gravy was like ... Like how my kids feel about donut mornings. Lol

 

My dad's favs were PB and syrup sandwiches or spam with box Mac and cheese. I still think both are throughly disgusting.

[Scarlett]

Cowboy gravy!!!!!! Always yellow for some reason. I suspect bc it was the least used of the food coloring combo pkgs.

 

A morning when grandma made cowboy gravy was like ... Like how my kids feel about donut mornings. Lol

 

My dad's favs were PB and syrup sandwiches or spam with box Mac and cheese. I still think both are throughly disgusting.

My BIL called it SOS.

 

:tongue_smilie:

[Scarlett]

I remember being on very low funds and knew that people ate beans and rice when they had no money.  I bought a giant container of dry beans (which I had never cooked before).  I live at extremely high altitude (9500 ft).  I cooked those beans for two and 1/2 days before they were soft enough to eat. It was a nightmare!  My friend later said, "Oh, you really need a pressure cooker to cook dry beans here..." If I was making dried beans of course I don't have money for a pressure cooker...  I remember being very frustrated by the whole process and thinking I should just go to Taco Bell and get some cheap burritos.

 

 

Is that really a thing?  That beans take 2 days to cook at high altitudes?

 

My mom cooked on the stove.  I have always used the crock pot.  

[Scarlett]

Here in my very rural OK town of about 8K Wal-Mart, which is the only store....doesn't carry lentils.  I assume it is because no one  buys lentils here!  But why?  They are cheap, healthy, yummmy.  

[regentrude]

Is that really a thing?  That beans take 2 days to cook at high altitudes?

 

Yes.The boiling point of water  decreases with altitude; at high elevation, you simply don't reach a high enough temperature. 

You have to adjust cooking with most foods at high altitude, but legumes are especially bad.

I imagine it would not take quite as long if you soaked them overnight beforehand. A trick for high altitude cooking of beans is to add baking soda which is supposed to considerably shorten cooking time since it breaks down the shell, but I have not tried that myself. It's supposed to be miraculously quick even without soaking.

Edited March 30, 2016 by regentrude

[Murphy101]

Here in my very rural OK town of about 8K Wal-Mart, which is the only store....doesn't carry lentils. I assume it is because no one buys lentils here! But why? They are cheap, healthy, yummmy.

I agree they are cheap. Personally I think they are disgusting though. But I'd buy them to try at least once bc of the cheap factor. And I'd at least try some if you made them for me. For all I know I only think they are disgusting bc I have not had yours yet.

 

Have you asked them to carry them? They might order a small batch in to see if it sells.

[pinkmint]

Whenever poverty and obesity come up (anywhere, not just here) there's always the mention of beans and incredulity about why the poor don't use them more. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It just never seems to happen in real life (in the US).

Edited March 30, 2016 by pinkmint

[hornblower]

I agree they are cheap. Personally I think they are disgusting though. But I'd buy them to try at least once bc of the cheap factor. And I'd at least try some if you made them for me. For all I know I only think they are disgusting bc I have not had yours yet.

 

Have you asked them to carry them? They might order a small batch in to see if it sells.

 

Lentil soup is a staple here. 

 

Also dal. I love dal. Dal makhani, palak dal, garlic dal.

 

Lentils are great because they don't require presoaking. 

 

 

 

[Murphy101]

 

Lentil soup is a staple here.

 

Also dal. I love dal. Dal makhani, palak dal, garlic dal.

 

Lentils are great because they don't require presoaking.

 

 

 

Is dal a food or a recipe for lentils? Have to google...

[hornblower]

Is dal a food or a recipe for lentils? Have to google...

 

Dal is the name of an Indian dish based on lentils. Comes in a multitude of varieties based on the type of lentils and how they're prepared & what they're mixed with. 

 

here's a basic vegan version of  dal makhani http://www.oneingredientchef.com/dal-makhani/ 

[Murphy101]

 

Dal is the name of an Indian dish based on lentils. Comes in a multitude of varieties based on the type of lentils and how they're prepared & what they're mixed with.

 

here's a basic vegan version of dal makhani http://www.oneingredientchef.com/dal-makhani/

Oh!! My best friend in elementary school was from India and I had that with chicken and rice at her house and these tortilla-like things. I can't remember if I liked it or not ... I do like some Indian food though so who knows, maybe I would!

[eternalsummer]

Re: the research, I didn't read it super carefully, but I am unsure whether they controlled for cause vs correlation?  They concluded that poverty causes you to crave unhealthy foods (presumably because if you feel food-insecure, biology tells you to stock up on calories whenever you can, as poverty used to mean that you might actually starve to death), right?  If they tested/interviewed the same people both during poverty and after or before poverty, that makes sense.  I wasn't entirely sure whether they did this, though - if they failed to control for that, then you could conclude not that poverty causes poor decision making, but that there is something in the personality or decision-making process that contributes both to poverty and to poor food choices.

 

I'm not trying to make a value judgment in this case, just raising the possibility in terms of the research.

 

All of that said, while I am personally against government taxes to control behavior, I don't know that many governments haven't done *exactly* this before, and successfully.

 

Cigarettes are taxed at an insane level in some places - in NZ, they were literally 500% more than they were in Missouri in the USA, and I think there are places in the US where they cost as much as they did in NZ.  There was also a huge campaign to demonize smoking to make it both prohibitively expensive (for the poor) and socially undesirable.

 

Certainly this tax hits the poor harder than the rich - a $10 pack of cigarettes means nothing to a rich person, but for someone who is poor, $10/day (for pack a day smokers, like my dad) drives them much further into poverty.

 

We judged as a society that the tax and especial burden on the poor was worth it, because smoking is so destructive to personal health, and we all pay the costs (through socialized health care, which is largely the case for the very poor and elderly).

 

I would argue that obesity is not much different than smoking/lung cancer in this regard.  

[goldberry]

Is that really a thing?  That beans take 2 days to cook at high altitudes?

 

 

 

Yep.  You will also note that most high altitude directions apply to 6500 feet.  At 9500 ft, I guess they figure you are on your own!  As regentrude said, it has to do with the boiling temperature of water.  My friends that make beans regularly all have pressure cookers.  I just buy canned beans.

[Murphy101]

But the difference is that no one needs to smoke so taxing people out of something they don't need to live is a far different beast than taxing people who need to eat whatever they can afford to eat to survive.

 

Aside from that, I'll say again, we don't need to tax it. Drop the subsidies for it. God knows there's better uses of govt funds that would do more to help the poor get food.

[Joyofsixreboot]

Recent posts remind me of one of our meals as a kid: "bread and gravy." Bread that's getting stale covered in gravy from some past meal. My mom used to talk it up like it was gourmet. :P

Many, many suppers of gravy bread. We had fried potatoes w/onions almost every meal. My parents were children during the depression. Compared to my grandparents ( who still had no plumbing in the 1970's) they were wild spendthrifts 😀. My grandmother taught me all the wild greens to eat. My other grandmother was a cornbread and beans lady. All. The. Time. I did learn all those cooking/scavenging skills that most people just don't get a chance to learn. Yet another way unhealthy choices may get passed down. If your mom made Doritos and hot dogs and you have memories of it you're probably going to make your kids the same thing.

 

*I may have made fried cube steak, fried potatoes and green beans tonight. Not great but it is rainy and I needed comfort. The cube steak was marked down to $2.18 for a package of 4. See how that works.

[Scarlett]

I agree they are cheap. Personally I think they are disgusting though. But I'd buy them to try at least once bc of the cheap factor. And I'd at least try some if you made them for me. For all I know I only think they are disgusting bc I have not had yours yet.

 

Have you asked them to carry them? They might order a small batch in to see if it sells.

 

 

I make lentils and brown rice with taco seasoning the crock pot and use it in place of taco meat.  I got the recipe off this site and it is yum.  

[eternalsummer]

But the difference is that no one needs to smoke so taxing people out of something they don't need to live is a far different beast than taxing people who need to eat whatever they can afford to eat to survive.

 

Aside from that, I'll say again, we don't need to tax it. Drop the subsidies for it. God knows there's better uses of govt funds that would do more to help the poor get food.

 

No one needs to eat sugar or highly processed foods or fast food or coke or whatever either? 

[Scarlett]

Whenever poverty and obesity come up (anywhere, not just here) there's always the mention of beans and incredulity about why the poor don't use them more. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It just never seems to happen in real life (in the US).

 

 

Have you ever cooked them?  So easy (unless you live in high altitude apparently) and very good.

[Murphy101]

No one needs to eat sugar or highly processed foods or fast food or coke or whatever either?

Yeah they do actually if they can't afford anything else.

 

Making the food they can afford unaffordable won't make the healthier food in their budget. It just means then there's nothing they can afford. I suspect unless the tax was crazy high like cigarettes, we'd quickly see a black market spring up. Because people gotta eat.

 

I'm fine with taxing the heck out of all beverages not water. No one needs any other drink, including juices. I'm less inclined towards taxing milk bc tho we almost never drink it, it is necessary for a lot of cooking to most people.

But then I think of all the municipalities being discovered to have contaminated water and question my decision all these decades to never waste money to drink calories.

 

I already think fast food is very very expensive. I don't understand how anyone in poverty can afford it. You might be able to get a taco for .99 but who only needs to eat one taco? No one in my house I can tell you. But sure tax fast food I guess.

 

I still don't understand how that would make healthier food more affordable.

 

It just makes what they could afford as unaffordable as everything else? How's that going to help them? I guess starvation does prevent obesity, but I'm not okay with that either.

[eternalsummer]

There is a cigarette black market :)

 

Healthy food is affordable.  That is the argument of the research (as I read it), that the reason poor people buy more expensive and unhealthy processed food is because of the stress of the insecurity of poverty, not because it is cheaper.

 

We were (very) poor for several years; we ate beans and rice and popcorn (made with oil in a pan) and bananas and eggs. That was 90% of our diet.  We never, ever ate fast food - we could not afford it.  We never bought bread, or frozen foods, or soda, or anything like that.

 

Anyway, the best way to do it in terms of public health would be to make food stamps like WIC - a set list of relatively healthy things you can get for free.

 

But I am not huge on having the government tax anything to modify behavior.  I just think if you're going to use taxes to control behavior, obesity/junk food/sugar/etc. eating is not somehow different than smoking, qualitatively.

 

We are still not there societally, though - there is not quite the widespread opprobrium of obesity that there is of cigarette smoking, just yet, and you can still advertise food that is bad for you to kids, etc.

[Scarlett]

Yeah they do actually if they can't afford anything else.

 

Making the food they can afford unaffordable won't make the healthier food in their budget. It just means then there's nothing they can afford. I suspect unless the tax was crazy high like cigarettes, we'd quickly see a black market spring up. Because people gotta eat.

 

I'm fine with taxing the heck out of all beverages not water. No one needs any other drink, including juices. I'm less inclined towards taxing milk bc tho we almost never drink it, it is necessary for a lot of cooking to most people.

But then I think of all the municipalities being discovered to have contaminated water and question my decision all these decades to never waste money to drink calories.

 

I already think fast food is very very expensive. I don't understand how anyone in poverty can afford it. You might be able to get a taco for .99 but who only needs to eat one taco? No one in my house I can tell you. But sure tax fast food I guess.

 

I still don't understand how that would make healthier food more affordable.

 

It just makes what they could afford as unaffordable as everything else? How's that going to help them? I guess starvation does prevent obesity, but I'm not okay with that either.

 

 

I don't get the fast food being cheaper argument either.  I make tacos all of the time.  Sometimes with beef and sometimes with lentils and rice.  Even with fresh lettuce, tomatoes and green onions the price is no where near .99 per taco.  

[Scarlett]

Many, many suppers of gravy bread. We had fried potatoes w/onions almost every meal. My parents were children during the depression. Compared to my grandparents ( who still had no plumbing in the 1970's) they were wild spendthrifts 😀. My grandmother taught me all the wild greens to eat. My other grandmother was a cornbread and beans lady. All. The. Time. I did learn all those cooking/scavenging skills that most people just don't get a chance to learn. Yet another way unhealthy choices may get passed down. If your mom made Doritos and hot dogs and you have memories of it you're probably going to make your kids the same thing.

 

*I may have made fried cube steak, fried potatoes and green beans tonight. Not great but it is rainy and I needed comfort. The cube steak was marked down to $2.18 for a package of 4. See how that works.

 

 

Why is it 'not great'?  I think it is pretty darn good.

[pinkmint]

Have you ever cooked them? So easy (unless you live in high altitude apparently) and very good.

My experience with dried beans is that they require skill to soak/ cook properly and even more skill to make them taste good. I've tried it a few times and they are always so much worse than canned beans or fast food beans. I don't know why.

 

Maybe others have had that experience too.

[morningcoffee]

Whenever poverty and obesity come up (anywhere, not just here) there's always the mention of beans and incredulity about why the poor don't use them more. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. It just never seems to happen in real life (in the US).

 

I agree! I would love to eat more beans and lentils but they don't agree with me (to put it politely :001_smile: ).  I'm sure I'm not the only one. 

[Scarlett]

My experience with dried beans is that they require skill to soak/ cook properly and even more skill to make them taste good. I've tried it a few times and they are always so much worse than canned beans or fast food beans. I don't know why.

 

Maybe others have had that experience too.

 

 

Girl...  :)  Google.  Beans are easy to make yum.  An so healthy.  And cheap.

 

Do you have a crock pot?  I don't soak my beans.  Well, sometimes I do the quick soak method because I always forget the overnight method.  But anyway, rinse them, put them in a crock pot with water.  Add a chopped/sliced onion/ some garlic/ a slice or two of bacon if you have it...if not a tablespoon of oil.  Cook on low for 10 hours.  Or high for 6 or 8.  

 

But.  Canned beans are still a pretty good choice.  Still.  You can get at least 5 times the amount for the same cost if you cook them yourself.

[pinkmint]

I agree! I would love to eat more beans and lentils but they don't agree with me (to put it politely :001_smile: ). I'm sure I'm not the only one.

LOL that's another thing for sure. The times I've made homemade beans especially, it's like explosions in my digestive area.

[SKL]

I used to love eating mac'n'cheese.  I would make it for my kids at least weekly, except they don't like it.  :/  Buttheads.  :P

 

As for lentils - I think they are gross.  I have had them at least a couple dozen ways.  The texture is gross.  Except in sambar, where you don't actually get lentil texture, or some foods where the lentil is more crunchy than soft.

 

But if you can like lentils, more power to ya.  They are an excellent choice in every way except being able to stomach them.  :P

[SKL]

We used to eat beans and rice, but not in the same meal.  :)

 

I discovered brown rice and black beans as an adult.  I love it.  Unfortunately, one of my kids won't come within 10 feet of a bean.  :/

[Scarlett]

I used to love eating mac'n'cheese.  I would make it for my kids at least weekly, except they don't like it.  :/  Buttheads.  :p

 

As for lentils - I think they are gross.  I have had them at least a couple dozen ways.  The texture is gross.  Except in sambar, where you don't actually get lentil texture, or some foods where the lentil is more crunchy than soft.

 

But if you can like lentils, more power to ya.  They are an excellent choice in every way except being able to stomach them.  :p

 

 

I was grown and married when I realized I don't actually like Mac and cheese.  It was a staple at my house growing up.  I ate what was put in front of me.