Narcissism and theology (CC)

[albeto.]

This statement seems sort of bullying to me.

 

How so?

[TammyS]

Yes, this is exactly what I've seen in the ones I know. My MIL, probably at least one of my aunts, my grandfather.....they act that way because deep down they are miserable and terrified. 

 

See, this is what I find so dangerous about this whole NPD thing that is going around in conversation right no.  You have diagnosed 3 people in your family with this....but have they actually been diagnosed, or is this just a way to put a label on them and not take them seriously as people (not saying that any bad behaviors they have committed are ok, but that is a separate issue from labeling them).

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think we may have some people talking (in this thread and in others) about actually diagnosed NPD patients, while most are talking about suspected NPD without a diagnosis.

[8circles]

NPD involves chronic abuse. Hiding that, taking it to PMs only, only serves the abusers.

 

We are not at risk of hurting anyone's feelings in this thread b/c N don't ever believe that they have NPD. They are probably nodding along or calling us all whiners. That is part of it.

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but the damage I've seen is so devastating...it's worth talking about.

Nobody wants to stop you from talking about your abuse. I agree that it's important and valuable. I sometimes need to as well. This thread is about people who SUFFER with NPD and if they receive God's grace.

 

There have been hurtful comments made about people who SUFFER with NPD by people who are ignorant about what that actually means. I don't have NPD but someone I love does.

[8circles]

This statement seems sort of bullying to me.

How so? She is admittedly ignorant about this subject.

[8circles]

I think we may have some people talking (in this thread and in others) about actually diagnosed NPD patients, while most are talking about suspected NPD without a diagnosis.

I agree that some people talked about in these threads probably don't have NPD and are just not nice people. But do you have any idea what it takes to get an NPD dx?

[Laurie4b]

I think we may have some people talking (in this thread and in others) about actually diagnosed NPD patients, while most are talking about suspected NPD without a diagnosis.

 

The problem is that very few people are diagnosed with NPD because very few people with NPD think they have a problem worth going to therapy over. 

 

People with NPD or with many NPD traits (which is what you can say if someone doesn't have an official diagnosis) do an incredible amount of deep and lasting damage in their social networks.

 

People in those networks who have been damaged are helped when they see a cluster of characteristics and suddenly realize, "How did they know my relative/boss/etc? This description is right on target.  Does this mean I'm not crazy? Maybe I can try some of these strategies."  So I don't think it's necessary to avoid talking about NPD traits unless there is an official diagnosis. That only harms the victims, whether it's of 100% NPD or 81% NPD traits. Clusters of traits are important. And the DSM can change the diagnostic criteria every few years (in fact, they just did.) I think it's ok to use the shorthand. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

But do you have any idea what it takes to get an NPD dx?

 

No, I have no idea what the diagnosing criteria are.

 

The problem is that very few people are diagnosed with NPD because very few people with NPD think they have a problem worth going to therapy over. 

 

Yeah, it sounds like this is probably the case. 

[livetoread]

I don't think I would necessarily come to that conclusion about Pharoah. It's quite common in the OT for things to be described very much from the perspective of the observer. So, for example, they talk about God changing his mind, which isn't a theologically coherent idea and conflicts with other things we learn about God. But, that is what appears to have happened from the perspective of a paerson living in time and space. It also isn't uncommon to talk in a way that attributes things to God which are really indirect.

I agree that whoever wrote about the Exodus story may have had a myriad of reasons for writing what he did. Whether God actually did harden Pharoah's heart or not, who knows? But I think it is quite clear that the author said that God decided from the beginning of the story that he would harden Pharoah's heart in order to show his power. That's what it says. The author says that God did that. Why, I don't know.

 

So the author might have been mistaken about God's behavior, or the author might have had other reasons for saying what he did, but I don't think I'm mistaken about the author's intent. By intent, I don't mean I know the purpose of the author for telling the story, etc. I just mean that the author, for whatever reason, says that God purposefully hardened Pharoah's heart and I think it is rewriting the story to say that Pharoah hardened his heart against God.

 

Sorry, I know I'm off topic. Feel free, anyone, to ignore.🙂

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that it is a mistake to generalize about the extent to which people with NPD suffer from it.

I imagine that some do and some don't.

 

One thing I have noticed is that there really aren't any resources to help people who have it.  There are resources to help people deal with those who have it, but nothing for someone who has it to use to try to improve or get well.  I wonder whether that is why people aren't diagnosed with it very often?  Because in the same way that dealing with starting to take domestic violence seriously has helped perpetrators to see that they do it, and in the same way as anger management classes have become pretty common, more and more people are working on not being victimized by others with NPD, and so maybe that will lead to more self-awareness, self-help book, and treatment options (I'm thinking maybe CBT) for those with it.

[DesertBlossom]

I think my grandmother had some NPD qualities and her relationship with my mother was somewhat emotionally abusive. I also know she didn't feel loved as a child and I think many of the things she did as an adult stem from that.

 

When it comes to the day of judgement I think many of those who couldn't or wouldn't see how their actions hurt others may be healed from their abuse or upbringing or a chemical imbalance, or whatever it may have been that affected them. (And I think we ALL suffer from from *something* that affects how we think and how we the world.) With that extra clarity and understanding of their actions I think they will be given the opportunity to repent.

 

I don't have any scripture to back that up, it's just my feelings. There are a lot of really poor choices people make that are a direct result of experiences they'd had that have negatively affected their lives. And while I don't know much about NPD, I think it's possible that their choices and their inability to recongize the hurt they cause stem from experiences in their lives that messed them up.

 

For me, while that means I don't have to put up with the abuse or allow that person in my life, it keeps me from feeling hate and anger towards them too.

[Heidi]

Maybe we need a "safe space" group where nobody gets their feelings hurt. No bullying-like or triggering comments or views that are different than their own.

[Ravin]

And if you want to discuss what happened to you, that doesn't bother me. But in these threads the generalizations about NPD inevitably broaden to all people with personality disorders, and there are people here with various personality disorders. I know because I've gotten messages from them telling me how much these threads hurt them. People with PDs other than NPD have left the forum because of it. And there may be others like me who were misdiagnosed. The Army likes to throw around PD diagnoses when they don't know exactly what's wrong with a person.

 

This bears repeating.

 

One of my sisters was discharged from the Navy, supposedly for "Personality Disorder--NOS", as their way of getting rid of her because she was seen as a discipline problem even though she hadn't done anything that warranted a bad conduct discharge. The VA determined she had PTSD--and the way her command handled the traumatic event compounded the trauma.

 

Also, Biopolar Disorder has gotten tossed around in here and it's a whole different can of worms from NPD (though someone could certainly have both).

 

I think part of the problem here is that the modern framework of mental illness is at odds with the Christian understanding of good an evil, which to some extent is rooted in medieval thinking which categorized a LOT of what we unequivocally attribute to illness today as evidence of evil. The line within Christian thinking has moved over the centuries, of course, but when we talk about framing a person's behavior as disordered, with no evidence of other symptoms (ex: Bipolar mood swings, schizophrenic hallucinations), then the conflict in world views is right there on the surface.

 

When you think of the mind as something separate from the body, seeing behavior as a symptom of illness just doesn't make sense. But the mind isn't separate from the body, and the brain is an organ which can malfunction. 

 

I actually think the idea of God hardening Pharoah's heart could be an excellent analogy/example. If someone's illness causes their bad behavior, they are, perhaps, not wholly responsible for it, at least on a spiritual level. That doesn't mean there aren't or shouldn't be consequences on the human level, though.

[Heidi]

I actually think the idea of God hardening Pharoah's heart could be an excellent analogy/example. If someone's illness causes their bad behavior, they are, perhaps, not wholly responsible for it, at least on a spiritual level. That doesn't mean there aren't or shouldn't be consequences on the human level, though.

I agree, and I think that's what a lot of us have already said. Only God can be the true judge, of anyone.

[Seasider]

Ravin, and anyone else I may have inadvertently confused, to clarify, when I introduced "BPD" I intended that to be understood as Borderline Personality Disorder rather than bipolar.

 

My intent in asking about a diagnosis was specifically in considering what Katy's response to the situation might be. Considering my own situation, a clinical diagnosis helps me feel more compassionate even when I am clearly wronged by certain persons (in comparison with those who are just self-centered and boundary impaired by willful choice).

 

((Katy)) you are in a tough spot. I have many thoughts, but will only say that you need to find a stance that will allow you to sleep in peace at night. As a mom, I've put my focus on making sure my kids are aware and compassionate, yet unscarred. It's hard to err when you fall on the side of grace; trust God to administer the justice.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Seasider

[SparklyUnicorn]

One thing I've always had difficulty with is knowing what is the illness and what is the person just being a jerk?  Is every lousy behavior attributed to an illness?  At that rate people would never be responsible for their own actions ever.  I am pretty sure that barring extremes most people are never completely out of control of their behavior all the time.

 

 

[Scarlett]

Well, as the sister of a mentally ill and raging brother I have come to a place where I just leave it in God's hands.  I guess you could be mentally ill and wicked, who knows.  I know I can't really tell how much of his issues are character and how much are mental illness.

 

I just stay away from him as much as possible.

[snowbeltmom]

One thing I've always had difficulty with is knowing what is the illness and what is the person just being a jerk?  Is every lousy behavior attributed to an illness?  At that rate people would never be responsible for their own actions ever.  I am pretty sure that barring extremes most people are never completely out of control of their behavior all the time.

This is what I wonder as well, especially when the golden child is never subjected to the same poor treatment. I have a difficult time understanding how it can be an illness when the person seems to have control over whom she/he inflicts her/his craziness.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

I think part of the problem here is that the modern framework of mental illness is at odds with the Christian understanding of good an evil, which to some extent is rooted in medieval thinking which categorized a LOT of what we unequivocally attribute to illness today as evidence of evil. The line within Christian thinking has moved over the centuries, of course, but when we talk about framing a person's behavior as disordered, with no evidence of other symptoms (ex: Bipolar mood swings, schizophrenic hallucinations), then the conflict in world views is right there on the surface.

 

A traditional Christian understanding of illness is relevant here.  Traditionally Christianity sees illness, death, pain, and disordered behavior/treatment of people, etc. as results of a fallen world that is being resurrected continuously but not entirely all the time.  There is an 'already/not yet' tension to it.  And it reduces the sense of a varying world view in that all illness and problems seen as the result of sin (not specific sins but sin in general--the fact that there is sin polluting the world in general) means that they are all interrelated.

 

The conflict in world views you postulate I think is more a conflict in 'what we do about this' instead.  If we view people as disordered, what do we do about it, compared to viewing them as evil?  Do we forgive them more easily?  Maybe.  Do we consider them to have agency or not is the question I would ask.  Under the law, for instance, the criteria for criminal insanity is much less forgiving than a DSM view of what constitutes a mental disorder.  Even legally, we don't consider those with mental disorders to be free of responsibility or agency.  Some have far more difficulty in behaving kindly than others do, and although that may not be their fault, they still have agency and moral responsibility.

 

What I think they lack, and I keep coming back to this, is the means to figure out what to do instead.  I think that a lot of people with NPD really don't know how to behave.  For whatever reason, many of them seem to have deeply entrenched habits that are destructive to others.  I wish that there were resources floating around to help them form other habits or better ways of dealing with other people.  It's like with young children--you're a lot more effective when you redirect them than when you say no all the time.  (ETA:  Other people with NPD do know how to behave and are just plain mean by choice, I think.)

 

Issues around dealing with people with NPD beg the questions 'Is to understand always to forgive?' and 'Does forgiveness require reconciliation to be genuine?'  Furthermore, is 'forgive and forget' a requirement of the Christian life?  Does 70 X 7 require forgetting the wrong and reconciling?  These kinds of concerns come up over and over again in threads about NPD.

 

But the OP was more about whether God views people with NPD who treat others badly as culpable or not, and if so, to what extent.  That's a somewhat separate question. 

Edited January 6, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[Rosie_0801]

There have been hurtful comments made about people who SUFFER with NPD by people who are ignorant about what that actually means. I don't have NPD but someone I love does.

 

I think whether or not a narcissist suffers depends a heck of a lot on whether they are getting their needs met or not.

 

I think it possible that female narcissists suffer more than males. 

[Mommy22alyns]

The problem is that very few people are diagnosed with NPD because very few people with NPD think they have a problem worth going to therapy over. 

 

People with NPD or with many NPD traits (which is what you can say if someone doesn't have an official diagnosis) do an incredible amount of deep and lasting damage in their social networks.

 

People in those networks who have been damaged are helped when they see a cluster of characteristics and suddenly realize, "How did they know my relative/boss/etc? This description is right on target.  Does this mean I'm not crazy? Maybe I can try some of these strategies."  So I don't think it's necessary to avoid talking about NPD traits unless there is an official diagnosis. That only harms the victims, whether it's of 100% NPD or 81% NPD traits. Clusters of traits are important. And the DSM can change the diagnostic criteria every few years (in fact, they just did.) I think it's ok to use the shorthand. 

 

 

This x 1000000000000000.

 

As far as me and my mom (who exactly fits the bold, but whom I have described to my doctor, who says she fits the description quite well)... I cleanly cut off contact.  I have had to pray a lot to try and have forgiveness in my heart.  The rest of it... whether she can be redeemed or not... not my concern.  That's between her and God.  All I know is that I'm done.

[Laurie4b]

It is a misunderstanding to state that there are no resources to help people with NPD. There are. And those who for whatever reason (usually the external world pressing in) do seek help can get help. There can be progress. 

 

As I've stated upthread, the problem is that most people with NPD or with a whole hunka NPD traits do not usually show up in a therapist's office for help because they don't see themselves as having a problem.  They aren't especially good at insight either, but they can respond to the care of a therapist who is not taken in by their manipulation. Both the caring and the ability to resist getting sucked in are key components. 

 

 

 

 

[Laurie4b]

As for the OPs original question about grace, there is the principle of "to whom much is given, much is required." I think we have varying degrees of choice. For some, this is pervasive in their lives; for others of us, we may have less choice in a particular area.

 

For instance, as someone with ADHD, my road to hell, apart from the grace of God, would be paved with unmailed thank you notes, etc. It's not that I don't care. It's that getting the whole organizational sequence to get that done is an enormous obstacle to me. I have hurt people who I love and to whom I was thankful because I couldn't find a notecard, or having written the note, couldn't find the address, or the stamp, or did all that and it got in a pile and I was too embarrassed to mail it 3 months late. There are people in my life who believe that my level of choice in this is the same as theirs. I mean how hard it is to get a simple letter in the mail? ;) 

 

So for a person whose brain is truly malfunctioning in a way that makes it so much more difficult for him to have empathy, for instance, I believe that God will take that into account. He wasn't given much in the way of empathy so the same action done by someone with NPD would be weighted differently than that action done by someone without it. 

 

CS Lewis said something somewhere to this effect: don't evaluate someone's progress in Christ by comparing him to others, but to who he would have been without Christ. 

 

For us on a human level, though my life has been severely damaged by one person who is very likely NPD and another with several traits, I can view them with sympathy. When I comprehend the vast cavern of emptiness that seems to be experienced, and the level of relationship they miss, it is truly sad.  

 

There is grace for us all: for people with NPD as well as for their victims. How exactly that grace gets applied is God's business, not ours. These are just my thoughts as a Christian. I'm not speaking for a denomination, let alone all Christians. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is a misunderstanding to state that there are no resources to help people with NPD. There are. And those who for whatever reason (usually the external world pressing in) do seek help can get help. There can be progress. 

 

As I've stated upthread, the problem is that most people with NPD or with a whole hunka NPD traits do not usually show up in a therapist's office for help because they don't see themselves as having a problem.  They aren't especially good at insight either, but they can respond to the care of a therapist who is not taken in by their manipulation. Both the caring and the ability to resist getting sucked in are key components. 

 

I imagine many don't seek help though.  It seems like doing so would go against the very nature of such a condition.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Nobody wants to stop you from talking about your abuse. I agree that it's important and valuable. I sometimes need to as well. This thread is about people who SUFFER with NPD and if they receive God's grace.

 

There have been hurtful comments made about people who SUFFER with NPD by people who are ignorant about what that actually means. I don't have NPD but someone I love does.

 

My family is the poster family for mental illness.  I'm not trying to be insensitive, but ya know there isn't much support for those who deal with family who have these conditions.  Sometimes we need to let off some steam.   And yes it can come out sounding mean, but I understand that side of it.

[kathkath]

Well, if the study linked below is accurate, I would certainly hope so or 1/3 of our clergy are going to hell.

 

"31.2% of active PCC clergy...appear to have diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

 

This is found halfway down page 8 on the following document. This is serious stuff.

http://conflicttopeace.com/images/AACC_2015_Paper_NPD_in_Pastors.pdf

[LucyStoner]

I'll just leave this right here.

 

http://www.oprah.com/inspiration/How-to-Protect-Yourself-Against-Narcissists?FB=fb_omag_brene_protect_narcissists

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, if the study linked below is accurate, I would certainly hope so or 1/3 of our clergy are going to hell.

 

"31.2% of active PCC clergy...appear to have diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

 

This is found halfway down page 8 on the following document. This is serious stuff.

http://conflicttopeace.com/images/AACC_2015_Paper_NPD_in_Pastors.pdf

 

Although "appear to have".  That's not all that scientific.

[8circles]

My family is the poster family for mental illness.  I'm not trying to be insensitive, but ya know there isn't much support for those who deal with family who have these conditions.  Sometimes we need to let off some steam.   And yes it can come out sounding mean, but I understand that side of it.

 

I totally agree.

 

& I get that threads take different turns.  But in this thread which was about God's grace to people with NPD, I believe some of the comments were insensitive even they are valid and belong in other threads.

[8circles]

As for the OPs original question about grace, there is the principle of "to whom much is given, much is required." I think we have varying degrees of choice. For some, this is pervasive in their lives; for others of us, we may have less choice in a particular area.

 

For instance, as someone with ADHD, my road to hell, apart from the grace of God, would be paved with unmailed thank you notes, etc. It's not that I don't care. It's that getting the whole organizational sequence to get that done is an enormous obstacle to me. I have hurt people who I love and to whom I was thankful because I couldn't find a notecard, or having written the note, couldn't find the address, or the stamp, or did all that and it got in a pile and I was too embarrassed to mail it 3 months late. There are people in my life who believe that my level of choice in this is the same as theirs. I mean how hard it is to get a simple letter in the mail? ;)

 

So for a person whose brain is truly malfunctioning in a way that makes it so much more difficult for him to have empathy, for instance, I believe that God will take that into account. He wasn't given much in the way of empathy so the same action done by someone with NPD would be weighted differently than that action done by someone without it. 

 

CS Lewis said something somewhere to this effect: don't evaluate someone's progress in Christ by comparing him to others, but to who he would have been without Christ. 

 

For us on a human level, though my life has been severely damaged by one person who is very likely NPD and another with several traits, I can view them with sympathy. When I comprehend the vast cavern of emptiness that seems to be experienced, and the level of relationship they miss, it is truly sad.  

 

There is grace for us all: for people with NPD as well as for their victims. How exactly that grace gets applied is God's business, not ours. These are just my thoughts as a Christian. I'm not speaking for a denomination, let alone all Christians. 

 

Thank you for this thoughtful post, Laurie.

[Rosie_0801]

I'll just leave this right here.

 

http://www.oprah.com/inspiration/How-to-Protect-Yourself-Against-Narcissists?FB=fb_omag_brene_protect_narcissists

 

That's fine until someone begins actively trying to destroy you.

[Carol in Cal.]

It is a misunderstanding to state that there are no resources to help people with NPD. There are. And those who for whatever reason (usually the external world pressing in) do seek help can get help. There can be progress. 

 

 

Like what?  Because I have asked that question here several times in the last few years, and come up pretty much crickets.

 

And again, this goes to the issue of, what do they do instead?

 

I have known several people who seemed like they had NPD, and I could imagine with one of them being able to give them, say, a book, at some point.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Like what?  Because I have asked that question here several times in the last few years, and come up pretty much crickets.

 

And again, this goes to the issue of, what do they do instead?

 

I have known several people who seemed like they had NPD, and I could imagine with one of them being able to give them, say, a book, at some point.

 

I am honestly wondering the same.  I have been told lots of mental health stuff has treatment.  I'm still waiting to hear about it.

 

Problem is if the person doesn't want to change then it is pointless.

 

Most of the treatment is coping or distracting yourself from lousy feelings.  There is no cure.  There is no magical anything. 

[Rosie_0801]

Like what?  Because I have asked that question here several times in the last few years, and come up pretty much crickets.

 

And again, this goes to the issue of, what do they do instead?

 

I have known several people who seemed like they had NPD, and I could imagine with one of them being able to give them, say, a book, at some point.

 

Apparently progress can be made with schema therapy. Funnily enough, one of my nearby narcissist's favourite words is 'schema.'

[kathkath]

Although "appear to have". That's not all that scientific.

Did you read the attachment?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Did you read the attachment?

 

Not all of it no.

[Laurie4b]

Well, if the study linked below is accurate, I would certainly hope so or 1/3 of our clergy are going to hell.

 

"31.2% of active PCC clergy...appear to have diagnosable Narcissistic Personality Disorder."

 

This is found halfway down page 8 on the following document. This is serious stuff.

http://conflicttopeace.com/images/AACC_2015_Paper_NPD_in_Pastors.pdf

 

It makes sense. Jobs with lots of adultation and power are appealing to narcissists. I thought the article was very thoughtful and well-written.

[Laurie4b]

Although "appear to have".  That's not all that scientific.

 

Reading through the article, they used a reasonable measure to assess narcissism. I think the "appear to have" is just a broad term to mean that a true diagnosis of an individual requires a clinical assessment--something that would be unrealistic for researchers to attempt. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Reading through the article, they used a reasonable measure to assess narcissism. I think the "appear to have" is just a broad term to mean that a true diagnosis of an individual requires a clinical assessment--something that would be unrealistic for researchers to attempt. 

 

Thank you.  I'm lazy and grumpy today. 

 

I do think the fact they couldn't get a real diagnosis is problematic.  It's difficult enough with the proper methods.  There is no perfect test anyway.  No blood test.  No x-ray. Nothing. 

[albeto.]

Thank you.  I'm lazy and grumpy today. 

 

I do think the fact they couldn't get a real diagnosis is problematic.  It's difficult enough with the proper methods.  There is no perfect test anyway.  No blood test.  No x-ray. Nothing. 

 

Certainly no objective means of diagnosis, not yet anyway. Who knows what we'll find in the future.

 

Back to the OP, it used to make me wonder, if a god who supposedly knows all this stuff, knows the thoughts, fears, anxieties, and hopes and of those whose brains are at constant war with itself, would it really sentence that soul to an eternity of torture that would make waterboarding, bamboo under the fingernails, or a lifetime in Gitmo seem like a tropical vacation in comparison knowing it could not be able to comply to certain requirements? If a human can recognize the victim of mental health isn't necessarily "in charge" of their thoughts and actions, surely an omniscient god would know, no? 

Edited January 7, 2016 by albeto.

[LucyStoner]

That's fine until someone begins actively trying to destroy you.

NPD, Iike BPD exists. It also is thrown around a lot these days and IMO far too casually. These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

My maternal grandmother was a sociopathic criminal who beat my mother into two lifelong disabilities. Were that but 1/2 or even a 1/20th of her crimes and cruelty. I know from criminally crazy.

 

She most certainly has some sort of personality disorder. I can't even claim to love her. But I also can't claim she wasn't human or never suffered. Of course she suffered. And of course she is responsible for the abuse she metted out on my mother and so many others. These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

I can't even count the number of times I changed my phone number before it was easy to block calls. To say that I've stayed away from her is an understatement.

 

I don't think however people need to be applying this label to any random jackass at work or person who acts in a negative and selfish way. I've seen a lot of that recently and it gives me pause. It seems I can't go a day in which I interact with other adults outside of my family without someone telling me that someone, often multiple someones, in their life is NPD.

 

It recalls the era of BPD being applied to women right and left. That was rooted in sexism. This is rooted in a need to explain. But maybe sometimes the explaination is that from time to time people are jerks and on any day, that might be any one of us having a bad day and feeling jerky.

 

(This is not to say that there aren't people with NPD who are less criminally proficient or harder to spot than someone like my lovely grandmother- I get that. Still I reject the idea that there is a runaway increase in NPD. Again, the whole not mutually exclusive thing.)

Edited January 7, 2016 by LucyStoner

[gardenmom5]

This is what I wonder as well, especially when the golden child is never subjected to the same poor treatment. I have a difficult time understanding how it can be an illness when the person seems to have control over whom she/he inflicts her/his craziness.

 

exactly - if the perpetrator can control their behavior enough to hide it from someone watching, or not inflict their machinations on a chosen victim, that is not something outside of their control.

[Katy]

exactly - if the perpetrator can control their behavior enough to hide it from someone watching, or not inflict their machinations on a chosen victim, that is not something outside of their control.

 

<removing personal response.  This is a very good point>.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Katy

[TammyS]

How so? She is admittedly ignorant about this subject.

 

You didn't point out where you believe her to be wrong, or where you disagree.  You said:

"Holy cow. What an incredibly ignorant comment. This thread is a train wreck."

 

That is statement designed to shame.  That's bullying.

[8circles]

You didn't point out where you believe her to be wrong, or where you disagree. You said:

"Holy cow. What an incredibly ignorant comment. This thread is a train wreck."

 

That is statement designed to shame. That's bullying.

Well, someone should be ashamed of themselves for making so many critical comments in a subject they admittedly have no experience or knowledge in. That isn't bullying, it's a valid, appropriate response to someone being hurtful.

 

And I did explain what was ignorant about her comment in the very next paragraph.

[MercyA]

I can't imagine being able to interract in a healthy way at all with a narcissist, even treating them as an unbeliever (which I don't really get, I don't treat people differently based on what they believe, but whatever).

 

When thinking about how I might treat a believer versus an unbeliever, 1 Corinthians 5 comes to mind:

 

"It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst...I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves."

 

So, for example, I believe sexual activity outside of marriage is a sin. If two unmarried people are living together and not professing to be Christians, I don't concern myself with that or treat them any differently than I would anyone else. It's not my business. It's God's business, according to the passage above. (Although if they asked me what I thought, I'd tell them.) However, if two professing unmarried Christians decide to live together, I believe they should come under church discipline.

 

Likewise, if a professing Christian has a personality disorder and is openly committing sin, there is (or should be) a process of church correction and discipline for that. It may eventually involve total avoidance.

 

However, I agree with Arctic Mama that there is a point at which you may conclude, for practical purposes, that a professing believer is not actually a believer, if they have a complete lack of fruit and repentance in their life. In that case, it would be likely be fruitless continue to try to correct them with Scripture or church discipline. Total avoidance may still be appropriate for different reasons.

 

 

As for the OPs original question about grace, there is the principle of "to whom much is given, much is required." I think we have varying degrees of choice. For some, this is pervasive in their lives; for others of us, we may have less choice in a particular area.

 

For instance, as someone with ADHD, my road to hell, apart from the grace of God, would be paved with unmailed thank you notes, etc. It's not that I don't care. It's that getting the whole organizational sequence to get that done is an enormous obstacle to me. I have hurt people who I love and to whom I was thankful because I couldn't find a notecard, or having written the note, couldn't find the address, or the stamp, or did all that and it got in a pile and I was too embarrassed to mail it 3 months late. There are people in my life who believe that my level of choice in this is the same as theirs. I mean how hard it is to get a simple letter in the mail? ;)

 

So for a person whose brain is truly malfunctioning in a way that makes it so much more difficult for him to have empathy, for instance, I believe that God will take that into account. He wasn't given much in the way of empathy so the same action done by someone with NPD would be weighted differently than that action done by someone without it. 

 

THANK YOU for your eloquent post, Laurie. And to those of you here to whom I owe long-overdue PM's, forgive me.  :o

[albeto.]

Well that's an interesting take.  And absolutely true.  She certainly does target those who allow her to treat them this way.  She tried something completely ridiculous the day I met her, and while I went along with the person who catered to her (I really had no choice short of renting a car) I openly fumed that this was not acceptable and I would not be going out of my way for her EVER again.  This person has gone above and beyond to be nice to me and my family ever since.

 

Those who catered to her (out of a sense of empathy, love or obligation) have increasingly been targets.   So obviously she is capable of controlling herself.  Her normal MO is to find someone on the internet to feel sorry for her and take her in for a few months until they figure out she's a scam artist, but still feel just enough empathy for her to be more likely to drop her off at a hospital for a psych hold than to file a police report for her fraud (stealing credit cards or money, etc).

 

Another family member with frontal lobe damage from a motorcycle accident has no ability to control himself.  There is a marked difference in the two.  I never thought of it that way before.

 

Admittedly, I know nothing about NPD, but I am familiar enough with other mental health challenges to know the bar isn't set at being able to handle a situation socially appropriately, but being able to handle situations socially appropriately consistently. You might think of it like watching a toddler grow up. She may have the ability to sit still in church for an hour, but that doesn't mean she can sit still hour after hour all day long in various environments. Maybe that's a bad example, as mental illness isn't like maturity, but it's the inability to translate a skill across many venues that I'm trying to get at here. In other words, just because you see someone acting polite in one aspect doesn't mean they can hold it together in others. Any parent of a special needs child who has been told the problem is at home because Jr simply doesn't act like reported at school will know how this works. 

 

And for those asking about treatment, the problem with personality disorders is that there is none that works well. Something (in this case, probably this woman's very abusive mother) probably caused an attachment disorder when she was very young, so she never truly felt loved or learned empathy.

 

So she's a victim, doing her best to survive in a world that feels unpredictable, insecure, and unjust? 

 

What is the church doing for such victims. If treatment doesn't work, and clearly feeling "born again" doesn't work, then what's left for the church to do?

 

Honest question. 

 

Somehow I have much more patience for a child with an attachment disorder than I do an adult with a personality disorder though.  I suppose this is a result of victims - children are likely mostly hurting only themselves and their caregivers, vicious adults lash out at anyone who falls for their manipulations...

 

Logical enough. Kids can still be told to go to bed. Adults not so much. 

[Bluegoat]

exactly - if the perpetrator can control their behavior enough to hide it from someone watching, or not inflict their machinations on a chosen victim, that is not something outside of their control.

 

I think that is a significant misunderstanding of what is going on. 

 

The difficult with this kind of disorder is not, or not just, with deciding to be nice or be a jerk and follow through.  It's with understanding how to think about those things.  Either behavior is probably manipulative, or it lacks real understanding of ones own place in the world, or lacks understanding of other people's motivations. 

 

So the individual might treat one person as if they could do nothing wrong, and another like they could do nothing right, but both would be coming out of the same kind of tendency to see others only in terms of ones own ego.

Edited January 7, 2016 by Bluegoat

[SparklyUnicorn]

Admittedly, I know nothing about NPD, but I am familiar enough with other mental health challenges to know the bar isn't set at being able to handle a situation socially appropriately, but being able to handle situations socially appropriately consistently. You might think of it like watching a toddler grow up. She may have the ability to sit still in church for an hour, but that doesn't mean she can sit still hour after hour all day long in various environments. Maybe that's a bad example, as mental illness isn't like maturity, but it's the inability to translate a skill across many venues that I'm trying to get at here. In other words, just because you see someone acting polite in one aspect doesn't mean they can hold it together in others. Any parent of a special needs child who has been told the problem is at home because Jr simply doesn't act like reported at school will know how this works. 

 

 

 

Oh I know, but like I asked before, when is the behavior the result of disordered thinking and when is it just that person being a jerk?  I can't tell.  That makes it frustrating as heck.

 

And how much should someone else put up with being treated like crap?  For example, a person in my life would show up at my infant son's story time at the library and make an insane scene.  On another occasion the person drove drunk with the same son.  Yet another time the person screamed at the same son that she hated him (because she was out of her mind).  That was the straw.  I pretty much did not talk to that person since then.  Many many years.  I could not hack it anymore.  I don't think I was being unreasonable.

[albeto.]

And how much should someone else put up with being treated like crap? 

 

I have no problem with establishing healthy boundaries to avoid being manipulated, but this thread is about theology and how mental health fits into that. When the founding documents of the Abrahamic religions were written, mental health wasn't considered a biological property. It was a matter of the will, a detached, dualist force that guides the body, mind and soul. We know better now, so how does theology keep up? How does one say the bible's passages about salvation and damnation apply as written literally when we know certain behavior is out of a person's control? What does that mean about the god of that religion, that it would create a soul that is incapable of receiving its grace, knowing that grace is the only thing preventing eternal pain and suffering? Does one commit to a reading of the bible that goes against modern ethics (such as the problem of creating a cognizant, sentient soul, to live an immortal existence with no chance of salvation, created essentially to suffer in punishment for all eternity for a crime it was created to commit?)? How far can one stretch theology in order to maintain a moral code that incorporates new and incompatible information such as mental health issues, and not fall outside their personal comfort zone? Is a personal comfort zone the appropriate litmus test with which to explore these ideas?