If you grew up with a very intense/challenging sibling...

[BooksandBoys]

If you were the sibling of an intense kid growing up, what do you think your parents should have done differently? Do you think your parents "could have" actually done anything differently?

 

It seems that every time we have a thread about managing intense kids (those kids that seem to run the house with their moods and behaviors) or handling our stress over raising them, someone who grew up with one of those intense siblings mentions that their parents should have protected them better from the sibling or handled things differently.

 

I do the very best I can, but I know that growing up with their middle brother is so incredibly challenging. He has PTSD and significant sensory-seeking behaviors, but probably other diagnoses as well (the psych is giving it time before adding to the list). His tantrums are loud, long, and frequent. He's generally oppositional and always has been (refuses to do anything he's asked to do), and has recently begun breaking his brothers' toys when angry instead of just screaming about his anger. He takes 90% of my energy every day, which is saying something because my oldest has ASD and ADHD. I adore this child and I'm slowly becoming a better parent to him, but I worry about my other two.

 

So, hit me. If you grew up with one of these siblings, how could your parents have made it better? If you are raising one of these kids and think you are doing a good job of protecting your other kids from the moods and from your sheer exhaustion, what are you doing?

[Innisfree]

Okay, I'll try.

 

First, I'm right where you are. One very intense, often difficult child with multiple diagnoses, and a suffering sibling. I do not for one moment believe I'm doing enough to support the sibling, nor am I sure it's possible to really do enough. We are all very clear on the fact that life is not fair.

 

What I am doing:

 

1. Counseling for dd1, with her own therapist she does not share with her sister. This therapist's job is simply to support dd1.

 

2. School for dd1. Sadly, we reached the point at which we could see she needed not to be homeschooled. Her sister simply sucked all the air out of our days, and I couldn't give her the attention or the atmosphere she needed. She is better off at a good school, though it about killed me to reach that conclusion.

 

3. All the outside activities I can manage, to give her a life outside our fraught household. It has not always been possible to let her do all the activities she wants, because many require parent volunteer efforts or time commitments that we just can't manage. But I have tried to get her out of the house as much as possible.

 

4. Inside the house, her room needs to be her sanctuary. We've made sure she has a lock, and we try to let her have things that help make it feel safe: a white noise app on her tablet, her music, calming CDs, comfy bedding.

 

5. A chance to learn about her sister's conditions by participating in her therapy sessions. Some of the advice dd2's therapists have given dd1 has been very helpful.

 

6. What I'd like to do, but haven't been able to manage, is find a support group for siblings. There isn't one at the moment, and I don't seem to have the energy to start it. :-(

 

I hope that helps a bit, and I'll be listening in for other ideas. I do know how hard it is.

[Innisfree]

One more important thing that occurred to me:

 

As hard as it can be, I try to get away from the house with just dd1 and give her some undivided attention as often as possible.

[gardenmom5]

what I think my parents should have done . . .

 

prevent enabling grandparents from interfering  

holding accountable. 

 

 

do NOT try to get the other siblings (even when they're an adult) into the role of enabler/caretaker.  

 

above all - LISTEN to the non-trouble making children.  acknowledge THEIR feelings. do not treat them as though you're glad they're not a trouble maker so you can ignore them.

 

 

I've edited most out. there have been many times I've wondered if i was just weak, etc. I've been hard of my self at times for not 'doing better' as a teen, or accomplishing the things my friends did. well, things really were that bad, and I really did accomplish things of which they wouldn't be able to conceive.  they had supportive parents and normal siblings - I didn't. by the time my mother was ready to pay attention to me - to me it always felt like she was trying to asauge her guilt over previously ignoring me. I struggled with believing in her sincerity for the rest of her life. (and we had the best relationship of all of her children.)

 

  give the "typical" child your time.

Edited December 31, 2015 by gardenmom5

[katilac]

You're getting good suggestions already.

 

Acknowledge what the other kids are going through, give them safe spaces, try to make up for it when you can.

 

Send one kid to camp in June, the other in July - seriously, they need time away from each other! Do it in whatever way is practical, but do it if at all possible. 

 

Protect them physically. Don't ever think that an over-the-top kid is not going to physically react in an over-the-top way. Don't downplay it when the others say this kid hurt them. The other kids deserve physical safety. 

 

Make 'escape plans' for the other kids (this will come into play when they get older). They need to have permission to break the usual rules if the sibling is out of control - even if parents are home, uncontrollable raging is scary. Can they lock themselves in their room and get extra screen time with headphones to block the noise? Can they walk to the park or library? 

 

Know that, whatever is being said and done in your presence, it is 10x worse when they are not in your presence. Do not expect more typical kids to be able to protect themselves physically or emotionally; they really should not be left alone with the sibling. Do not expect that they will tell you all that is being said and done when you are not watching; they are afraid to rock the boat. Just know that it IS worse when you are not watching. 

 

The needs of the atypical child do not eliminate the needs of the other children. I personally think this means acknowledging that the atypical child is sometimes going to miss something that might be helpful for them: another therapy session, a lecture for the parents, uninterrupted attention. Parents think they are horrible if they don't do every last thing that maybe, might, perhaps help, but the fact is that you can't do everything for the atypical child without neglecting the needs of the other kids. 

 

Don't expect the other kids to always be able to graciously give in because the sibling needs more help, more parenting, more attention.

 

And, to repeat an important one, acknowledge that it is hard on the siblings. It would have meant the world to me if my parents would have acknowledged what I was going through, rather than trying to pretend that my sibling's behaviors fell into the realm of normal. Like I couldn't express that their 2 AM rage of destruction was frightening, because I once threw a toy truck when I was 6, kwim? 

[gardenmom5]

You're getting good suggestions already.

 

Acknowledge what the other kids are going through, give them safe spaces, try to make up for it when you can.

 

Send one kid to camp in June, the other in July - seriously, they need time away from each other! Do it in whatever way is practical, but do it if at all possible. 

 

Protect them physically. Don't ever think that an over-the-top kid is not going to physically react in an over-the-top way. Don't downplay it when the others say this kid hurt them. The other kids deserve physical safety. 

 

Make 'escape plans' for the other kids (this will come into play when they get older). They need to have permission to break the usual rules if the sibling is out of control - even if parents are home, uncontrollable raging is scary. Can they lock themselves in their room and get extra screen time with headphones to block the noise? Can they walk to the park or library? 

 

• Know that, whatever is being said and done in your presence, it is 10x worse when they are not in your presence.
• Do not expect more typical kids to be able to protect themselves physically or emotionally;
• they really should not be left alone with the sibling.
• Do not expect that they will tell you all that is being said and done when you are not watching;
• they are afraid to rock the boat.
• Just know that it IS worse when you are not watching. 

 

The needs of the atypical child do not eliminate the needs of the other children. I personally think this means acknowledging that the atypical child is sometimes going to miss something that might be helpful for them: another therapy session, a lecture for the parents, uninterrupted attention. Parents think they are horrible if they don't do every last thing that maybe, might, perhaps help, but the fact is that you can't do everything for the atypical child without neglecting the needs of the other kids. 

 

Don't expect the other kids to always be able to graciously give in because the sibling needs more help, more parenting, more attention.

 

And, to repeat an important one, acknowledge that it is hard on the siblings. It would have meant the world to me if my parents would have acknowledged what I was going through, rather than trying to pretend that my sibling's behaviors fell into the realm of normal. Like I couldn't express that their 2 AM rage of destruction was frightening, because I once threw a toy truck when I was 6, kwim? 

 

the highlighted just needed some emphasis . . . . .

 

 

don't use the problem child as a babysitter/transportation - just because it's convienent for you and they can be "normal" sometimes.

and there is alot you aren't going to hear about, because as has been said, kids are afraid to rock the boat. (or feel it's completely fruitless.)  don't EVER dismiss the normal child's feelings.  parents can easily send the message they'll do whatever they have to do help this problem child - even if it means the normal kid gets the fuzzy side of the lollipop. (and nothing but the fuzzy side.). then the "normal" kid won't say anything because "why bother?"   nothing will change, but they will be treated to another refrain (or two or three) of sit down and shut up.  because - poor __, has had such a hard life . . . . (and it's all out of her control . . . )

[Catwoman]

Kristen, I know you asked us not to quote your post, but I wanted to say I am so sorry about your dad. :(

[TechWife]

NM - TMI

Edited December 31, 2015 by TechWife

[BooksandBoys]

Thank you for sharing your story and suggestions, Gardenmom5. I'm sorry that you had to/have to deal with all of that.

[SKL]

I remember resenting that my parents treated my sister differently from me, because she was not an easy child.  She could "get away with" things I wouldn't dare try.  As a parent now, I realize they probably didn't have any real choice.  Parents have to pick their battles, and that means difficult kids get away with stuff and easier siblings have to suck it up sometimes.

 

As a parent I have two very different kids.  Each has her issues, and each is affected by the other's issues.  One is generally more troublesome than the other.  I'm between a rock and a hard place.  If I push the more difficult child on her issues that she may not be able to control, I only make things worse for all of us.  But if I appear to "let it go," it appears unfair and it seems to be accepting the behavior as OK for that kid.  Then if I try to balance it by letting the other kid get away with stuff, that doesn't feel right either.

 

I do plan on getting some counseling for both kids.  I am not sure how that will play out.  Will it just seem like more coddling of a kid who appears spoiled?  Giving more attention for bad behavior?

 

I do feel the easier kid senses that the other one has different needs.  She is usually pretty supportive.  But maybe she is secretly resentful.  Or maybe she's learning unhealthy ways to cope.  Sigh.  I don't know.

[bettyandbob]

These are things I've done that I hope helped my typical child. This child has two atypical siblings, one of which is the intense, suck-the-life-out-of-the-family type.

 

It took me a long time to realize we were never going to be able to do things as a family and build good family memories together. Activities that include intense child had to be geared to what we guessed intense would enjoy and that guess had to be correct or we'd pay. So, I had to drop the idea of "family activities", " family time", or "family vacations." I wish I'd realized and accepted this when they where young or at least still elementary age.

 

After this realization, at first it seemed we'd never do activities again since we couldn't all fo them. Then, I decided I could leave dh and intense child home and take short trips. This idea made me a bit nervous because I'd never traveled with kids (with one exception) and not dh. But we just started doing it and it was not hard at all. We camped at the beach. We started doing longer road trips. And now my typical child seems to have a bank of fun memories vacationing with mom and not intense, but not typical sibling. Some of these trips were utilitarian (college visits), some were short beach visits, some were long drives to see family friends and cool stuff on the way or near friends. Last summer we did our biggest trip , which was involved a very long car ride and a few days at universal studios. So, special family memories do not need to include all family members at once.

 

We started sending them to camp when they were young and I scheduled them to be gone different weeks. This was an important break. Typical child was 8 the first time. Having them hone at different times extended their time off from eachother.

 

We did do special one on one things with typical child. Small things like an evening browsing a bookstore and sometimes a really big thing.

 

An activity outside of home was sought out for typical child and invested in. Typical child was given opportunities to try many things, so that typical child could find that activity that felt good to spend significant time on.

 

Typical child has a friendship with an adult neighbor. This arose out of a volunteer activity they both enjoy. It is not something I could have engineered to happen. In addition to the volunteer work, it just happens the neighbor and typical child have the same reading tastes and both write. Sometimes I'm a little jealous of this relationship, but I know it's been very good for typical child to have another adult.

 

Give the typical child special privileges. Typical child was signed out of school to attend an anime convention. In our house this a very big deal, we place a high value on school. This made typical child feel special. We looked for opportunities big and small to let typical child feel special.

 

Typical child is allowed to escape when typical child decides it is necessary. So, typical child may run (or drive or get picked up) to a friend's when stressed. Clearly typical is probably going to explain what negative event sent typical child running. This will feel like airing the dirty laundry (you probably don't want anyone to know some of the crap that happens in your home). As much as I don't want typical child to confide in a friend, especially when stressed, I know typical child needs to do it.

 

Typical child is permitted to say negative things about intense sibling. Typical child may be told not to say these things to intense sibling, but typical child can say these things to parents and will acknowledge these feelings. Parents will not deny the validity of typical child's feelings.

 

I'm really tired. There's many more things. It comes down to giving the typical child our attention and actively not letting intense prevent that.

[abba12]

My sister was a problem child. She was never diagnosed with anything, but the house ran around her and her moods. 

 

Don't just turn a blind eye to the things the problem child does. My sister used to hit me hard enough to leave bruises, and it was completely ignored or I was told not to set her off.

 

Don't look for the typical child to pick up the slack any more than absolutely necessary. My mum could ask me to do a chore and I'd do it, she'd ask my sister and my sister would refuse, over and over. She started asking me to do it after my sister refused for hours, and eventually she just stopped asking my sister altogether. I never resented chores, but I came to resent doing so many when my sister did none. 

 

Spend equal time. My mum began having one-on-one time with my sister, and when I complained, mum and dad explained that she needed more attention and they were spending time with her to try and help her, but I didn't need that. All I wanted from ages 11-14 was for my mum to do something with me, we used to fight over who got to run errands with mum (and usually my sister won). By age 14 I stopped trying or caring. 

 

Be alert for any issues with the typical child. Sometimes typical kids are just quieter and more introverted, but not ok. I had some big problems as a teen which, if my parents had cared enough to pay attention, they would have seen. But since I was the normal one, they never really looked or noticed because my little signs of a deeper problem were much quieter and easier to ignore than my sisters meltdowns. 

 

But most of all, just don't let typical child get away with things because of their issues. Being told to avoid my sister when my sister was hitting me or screaming at me or saying cruel things made me feel like I wasn't even valued by my parents. As an adult, actually, I don't think I was far wrong, my mother hasn't spoken to me in 7 years and my dad and I barely talk even though he talks to my sister regularly. He's very proud of her and the life she's managed to make for herself after things were so hard. But I'm obviously just throwing my life away. My sister and I can do the same thing, but from her it's great and amazing because the bar is so low. From me it's just a waste, or not real. My family is currently celebrating my sister finally deciding to go to beauty school, and bragging to everyone around, while telling me my ebay business isn't 'real work' and acting surprised that I'm still doing it every time I mention it, because surely it's just going to fail soon and the 'luck' which has gotten me this far will run out. 

 

Ok, I might have some baggage here.... but this thread is all about baggage right? lol

 

[gardenmom5]

My sister was a problem child. She was never diagnosed with anything, but the house ran around her and her moods. 

 

Don't just turn a blind eye to the things the problem child does. My sister used to hit me hard enough to leave bruises, and it was completely ignored or I was told not to set her off.

 

Don't look for the typical child to pick up the slack any more than absolutely necessary. My mum could ask me to do a chore and I'd do it, she'd ask my sister and my sister would refuse, over and over. She started asking me to do it after my sister refused for hours, and eventually she just stopped asking my sister altogether. I never resented chores, but I came to resent doing so many when my sister did none. 

 

Spend equal time. My mum began having one-on-one time with my sister, and when I complained, mum and dad explained that she needed more attention and they were spending time with her to try and help her, but I didn't need that. All I wanted from ages 11-14 was for my mum to do something with me, we used to fight over who got to run errands with mum (and usually my sister won). By age 14 I stopped trying or caring. 

 

Be alert for any issues with the typical child. Sometimes typical kids are just quieter and more introverted, but not ok. I had some big problems as a teen which, if my parents had cared enough to pay attention, they would have seen. But since I was the normal one, they never really looked or noticed because my little signs of a deeper problem were much quieter and easier to ignore than my sisters meltdowns. 

 

But most of all, just don't let typical child get away with things because of their issues. Being told to avoid my sister when my sister was hitting me or screaming at me or saying cruel things made me feel like I wasn't even valued by my parents. As an adult, actually, I don't think I was far wrong, my mother hasn't spoken to me in 7 years and my dad and I barely talk even though he talks to my sister regularly. He's very proud of her and the life she's managed to make for herself after things were so hard. But I'm obviously just throwing my life away. My sister and I can do the same thing, but from her it's great and amazing because the bar is so low. From me it's just a waste, or not real. My family is currently celebrating my sister finally deciding to go to beauty school, and bragging to everyone around, while telling me my ebay business isn't 'real work' and acting surprised that I'm still doing it every time I mention it, because surely it's just going to fail soon and the 'luck' which has gotten me this far will run out. 

 

Ok, I might have some baggage here.... but this thread is all about baggage right? lol

 

hugs.  btdt. 

 

I used to have a terrible time with the parable of the prodigal son. for years.  my sister was that prodigal - and she got all attention and bestowals.  I really identified with the "good" son who felt overlooked, and resentful.   (though in the parable, his father eventually gave him everything.)

[livetoread]

My older sister had an extremely strong personality, a seemingly unlimited capacity for conflict and drama, and a mean streak for weakness. I just wanted peace and quiet and to be left alone. My folks expected me to hold my own against her and I got steamrolled. It set up negative patterns in both our lives. I wish they had called her on more instead of chalking it up to sibling rivalry that we needed to work out on our own. Looking back, I needed therapy at the time to learn how to cope.

[linders]

I had two challenging younger sibs, one (adopted) who very likely had Fetal Alcohol Syndrome and accompanying issues and the other who was intense. I was the good kid, the quiet kid, the easy kid, who did chores and schoolwork with little reminding or supervision, which was good because my parents had zero time or energy for me. Everything seemed to revolve around my siblings. It wasn't a horrible childhood, just a kind of quiet neglect.

 

Looking back, I do wish they could have carved out just a bit of time/energy, maybe some special little thing to do with just me, whether it was walking and talking together or going for an ice cream, just us. They never had any idea what was going on with me physically or emotionally. Sadly, as an adult I have a rather superficial relationship with my mom (and similar with my dad before he passed away). We are perfectly pleasant to each other, but there is no real connection, and I think that is in part because no connection was developed in my childhood or teens.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

 

 

But most of all, just don't let typical child get away with things because of their issues. Being told to avoid my sister when my sister was hitting me or screaming at me or saying cruel things made me feel like I wasn't even valued by my parents. 

 

Ok, I might have some baggage here.... but this thread is all about baggage right? lol

 I believe we had similar experiences. 

 

NM -

Deleted after some consideration

Edited December 31, 2015 by ScoutermominIL

[BooksandBoys]

I so appreciate everything you have all shared with me. I want to go through a could of the posts sad comment on certain lines, but I'll have to wait until I can get on the computer before I can do that.

 

One of the things I know I struggle with is the chores. DS1 (ASD, ADHD) is generally very helpful. I regularly realize that I've asked him to do eighteen things that day and not asked DS2 to do anything because every request is a battle. I'm working on that, which is actually what motivated this post. As I'm requiring more if DS2 (intense child), and, therefore, battling with him even more, I'm exhausted and short of temper with oldest and youngest. I am struggling so much find a balance between pushing the intense child and supporting the other two (DS3 appears to be neurotypical).

 

I'll have more comments to make later. Thanks again!

[Carol in Cal.]

I'm really uncomfortable with the extent to which the atypical kid is being regarded as the 'enemy' in this thread.

 

I think that it is pretty common for scapegoating to occur in families, with one person being defined as the root of all trouble, but it is rarely completely accurate.  

 

It IS important not to let a challenging kid suck up all the energy in the family, and to protect the others as well, but it's also important to be realistic about the normal challenges of family life and not to 'assign' them all to one issue or person.

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father.  The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate.  It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

[bluemongoose]

Well my sis was intense...but not as intense as you describe. I was the oldest.

 

Things I would change/what I would say to them:

 

1. Don't punish me for retaliating after repeated assault. She was hitting me till my whole arm was red, my parents did nothing. If eventually pushed her out of our room and locked her out. I was punished for being mean to my sister. If I hit her back after taking it for a long time, I would be grounded for a week.

 

2. Don't leave me in charge every single day for hours of this child. We were latch key kids. My parents could not afford to do differently, so I understand they didnt have a choice...but you asked what I would change.

 

3. Piggy backing on #2...if you are going to leave me with said child for hours, dont leave an unrealistic list of demands that I am somehow supposed to enforce. What happens is I will be yelled at, punched, have objects thrown at me etc. while you are gone for trying to do what you demand. When you get home, things will not have been accomplished from that list and you will be mad at me. Then the dear one will see that you are angry with me and tell a bunch of lies about me to get me further in trouble. Because you are already thinking poorly of me, you will not investigate but completely believe the lies and I will be punished. This happened nearly every single weekday.

 

4. Give me time away. I was almost never allowed to do things away from the family. This was partly because I was the oldest and my parents were extremely strict with me, and partly due to me being the live in babysitter. When I did get time away I was required to "pay" for it by doing extra chores.

 

5. Give me a space that is mine and I dont have to share with this child. We shared a room until I was a Jr. in HS. During our shared room time whatever was mine I had to share and this didnt change when I got my own room. She ate my candy from christmas, read my diary, stole my clothes and toys, broke my stuff, and wouldnt leave me alone. I was not allowed to complain about this.

 

6. If she breaks my stuff or steals it, she should have to fess up and return it or replace it. I should not be told that I am selfish or making a big deal because I am upset. I should not be the one punished because I came to you to ask for my things or some retribution for my broken and stolen items.

 

7. I think her issues should be acknowledged rather than you saying I am the only one with a problem. 

 

Now that we are adults, sis has mellowed out. She is still easier to anger than most, but she doesnt steal, hit, hurt, or lie anymore. Our relationship is much closer and better than we were as children, but she has expressed her frustration with our parents for punishing me when she was the one who should have been punished. She has said it would have been better if they had called her on her behavior and had given her the skills to learn to control her temper. She embarrassed herself many times as a young adult/early twenties while she learned to control herself since she was never guided to.

 

ETA: I think the atypical kid should not be scapegoated either. In my case I point the finger at my parents because they chose to try and make the compliant child more passive because they didnt want to deal with the intensity and fights they were going to have if they actually tried to deal with the intense child. I loved my sister through it all, and there were happy times as well as rough. It just could have been a lot happier if they had focused more energy on helping my sister than in making me meek and patient to the point of being the doormat.

Edited December 31, 2015 by bluemongoose

[happi duck]

My mom kept communication open about all things including my sister. My preferred method was writing back and forth. I knew I could express anything without getting in trouble. If I was frustrated with my sister she addressed my concerns without villifying my sister.

[BooksandBoys]

I'm really uncomfortable with the extent to which the atypical kid is being regarded as the 'enemy' in this thread.

 

I think that it is pretty common for scapegoating to occur in families, with one person being defined as the root of all trouble, but it is rarely completely accurate.

 

It IS important not to let a challenging kid suck up all the energy in the family, and to protect the others as well, but it's also important to be realistic about the normal challenges of family life and not to 'assign' them all to one issue or person.

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father. The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate. It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

I appreciate your feedback because scapegoating and blame is definitely something to watch out for.

 

I Absolutely Do Not "actively dislike" my intense child. He is a delight. He is sweet and kind almost all of the time. He is so gentle and kind with animals and he always makes an effort to confort an upset person. He is so talented athletically and physically that it's mind-boggling. From the moment he began climbing at 6 months old and running at 9, he's been amazing to watch when he moves (right now, he's trying to master spinning on his head in headstand position. So cool. He's 4.).

 

If this thread were about my oldest, who has ASD and severe ADHD, people might think I was blaming all the problems in the family on him. If this thread were about my husband, if would look like I was blaming him. Honestly, if I listed all of my faults in a thread, we could easily then say that "I" cause all of the issues in my family.

 

I think it is hard for me to communicate that I am asking this question not out of blame, but out of love. It is out of love that I want to know how to protect my other children so that they can grow up with no or minimal resentment of their brother. I want them to know that we did everything in our power to make their lives safe and happy. I want to offer my intense child the same by parenting his older brother in such a way that older brother's challenges don't make middle brother feel that he wasn't seen or cared for because we were wrapped up in ASD. I want to support my intense child as he struggles with his PTSD and other issues. I want to offer my youngest the same attention even though he isn't demanding it from me. But, those issues aren't what this thread is about. This thread is me looking for ideas to support my other kids when I'm exhausted from dealing with multiple daily tantrums and resistance because I love all of my kids.

[BooksandBoys]

My mom kept communication open about all things including my sister. My preferred method was writing back and forth. I knew I could express anything without getting in trouble. If I was frustrated with my sister she addressed my concerns without villifying my sister.

This is a great idea. I think my oldest would really like it. I also think my middle (the intense kiddo) would love drawing pictures back and forth with me in a journal. Thank you.

[umsami]

Ugh....this thread brings up so many things.

 

Definitely agree that things are probably 100x worse when you are not around.  My parents once said, "We were afraid to leave you with (brother) because we thought he'd kill you."  (Yet they were gone/traveling a ton.) 

 

If there are opposite genders, don't discount the possibility of sexual assault/molestation... or at least be aware of it.  After all, nobody protects the typical child from physical abuse, why protect them from sexual abuse?

 

Acknowledge that the typical child too has struggles and issues.  Don't think that just because comparatively this child is "good" that they don't need help.

 

 

[zoobie]

Ugh....this thread brings up so many things.

 

Definitely agree that things are probably 100x worse when you are not around. My parents once said, "We were afraid to leave you with (brother) because we thought he'd kill you." (Yet they were gone/traveling a ton.)

 

If there are opposite genders, don't discount the possibility of sexual assault/molestation... or at least be aware of it. After all, nobody protects the typical child from physical abuse, why protect them from sexual abuse?

 

Acknowledge that the typical child too has struggles and issues. Don't think that just because comparatively this child is "good" that they don't need help.

Sexual assault can happen between children of any combination of genders.

Edited December 31, 2015 by zoobie

[gardenmom5]

I'm really uncomfortable with the extent to which the atypical kid is being regarded as the 'enemy' in this thread.

 

I think that it is pretty common for scapegoating to occur in families, with one person being defined as the root of all trouble, but it is rarely completely accurate.  

 

It IS important not to let a challenging kid suck up all the energy in the family, and to protect the others as well, but it's also important to be realistic about the normal challenges of family life and not to 'assign' them all to one issue or person.

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father.  The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate.  It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

 

growing up - I blamed many things on my sister. (how many tweens have keyed locks on their door to keep a 5 1/2 years OLDER sibling out of their room?)  as an adult - I realized she had issues that were poorly handled (our relationship is civil, but not close), and how most of it came from my grandmother's manipulations and favoritism (she had some sort of PD.), and my mother's weakness and inability to tell her where to shove it. my sister blamed our brother - who could do no wrong, and probably has NPD.

 

and I, the kid who didn't do drugs, shoplift, teen s3x, abortionS, etc. etc. etc. - was the scapegoat. (in my overly influential grandmother's head. I was shocked when I heard the things for which she blamed me.  nothing I did - but my sister did repeatedly.  my mother ignored me. by the time she was ready to pay attention to me - I'd lost all trust for her.)

 

favoritism of "challenging" child, can also make them worse.  my sister deliberatly pushed boundaries to see where the line was - but was never called on them.

[gardenmom5]

My mom kept communication open about all things including my sister. My preferred method was writing back and forth. I knew I could express anything without getting in trouble. If I was frustrated with my sister she addressed my concerns without villifying my sister.

 

my oldest preferred to write notes.  she'd get so emotional, she'd have difficulty talking.

[bluemongoose]

The notes! Oh ya...I tried that. I got in trouble for that too. My mother and father didnt speak to me for over a week because I wrote down my frustrations about too many punishments and expectations and my desire to have one on one time with my parents. They said that what I said was hurtful. I even spoke tearfully with my pastor after church about what I said in the note and the fact that they were no longer speaking to me, which angered them more because now I tried to make other people listen to my complaining. That was the last time I put any trust in "open communication" with my parents or any faith in their statements that they cared about me. As an adult I know they love me as one of their children, but they do not know or understand me as a person. We will never be able to openly communicate.

 

Moral of that story...if you are going to go the note route, make sure you are prepared to not take the raw feelings of a resentful, hurting child who is trying to reach out as a personal attack. If you do, you will close the door to open communication. And yes, their words may sting, but they are hurting and need to have a place to get it out, even if some of the blame or frustration is misplaced. If you cannot be this person, a counselor is needed.

Edited December 31, 2015 by bluemongoose

[BooksandBoys]

Ugh....this thread brings up so many things.

 

Definitely agree that things are probably 100x worse when you are not around. My parents once said, "We were afraid to leave you with (brother) because we thought he'd kill you." (Yet they were gone/traveling a ton.)

 

If there are opposite genders, don't discount the possibility of sexual assault/molestation... or at least be aware of it. After all, nobody protects the typical child from physical abuse, why protect them from sexual abuse?

 

Acknowledge that the typical child too has struggles and issues. Don't think that just because comparatively this child is "good" that they don't need help.

Thankfully, they are all still so young that they really aren't alone ever. I will remember to maintain supervision as they get older since so many of you have mentioned this!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I did, but it did not really affect me too much.  I think what my parents could have done differently is to get my sibling help sooner than they did.  Although treating children for mental health issues is very difficult either way.

 

It's a challenging situation and nobody is ever really prepared for it. 

[BooksandBoys]

The notes! Oh ya...I tried that. I got in trouble for that too. My mother and father didnt speak to me for over a week because I wrote down my frustrations about too many punishments and expectations and my desire to have one on one time with my parents. They said that what I said was hurtful. I even spoke tearfully with my pastor after church about what I said in the note and the fact that they were no longer speaking to me, which angered them more because now I tried to make other people listen to my complaining. That was the last time I put any trust in "open communication" with my parents or any faith in their statements that they cared about me. As an adult I know they love me as one of their children, but they do not know or understand me as a person. We will never be able to openly communicate.

I understand that. I grew up in an, shall we say, unhealthy household. My parents expected my excellent behavior and could not handle any complaints, even valid ones. My pastors weren't any better. They just told me to pray more and forgive my dad for his poor parenting.

 

I hope that I will do better. I already allow (and even encourage if I see the need) my kids to complain about each other or things they think are unfair. I think we do a good job of being open to their feelings without scapegoating the brother (or parent) the child is angry with, but I can always do better.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Don't beat yourself up over this.  My dad once said to me we can't help but eff our kids up a bit because we go into parenting a bit effed up ourselves.  It's true.  None of us are perfect parents even without these challenges.

 

 

[bluemongoose]

Sparkly Unicorn- So True!!!

 

And yep...Im a bit effed up, so is DH and 3/4 of my children are intense in different ways and so is DH...so ya, I am now trying to do my best to parent all these kids without doing too bad a job, but I know when they get older they will have some area that they think I did wrong.

[freesia]

You're getting good suggestions already.

 

Acknowledge what the other kids are going through, give them safe spaces, try to make up for it when you can.

 

Send one kid to camp in June, the other in July - seriously, they need time away from each other! Do it in whatever way is practical, but do it if at all possible.

 

Protect them physically. Don't ever think that an over-the-top kid is not going to physically react in an over-the-top way. Don't downplay it when the others say this kid hurt them. The other kids deserve physical safety.

 

Make 'escape plans' for the other kids (this will come into play when they get older). They need to have permission to break the usual rules if the sibling is out of control - even if parents are home, uncontrollable raging is scary. Can they lock themselves in their room and get extra screen time with headphones to block the noise? Can they walk to the park or library?

 

Know that, whatever is being said and done in your presence, it is 10x worse when they are not in your presence. Do not expect more typical kids to be able to protect themselves physically or emotionally; they really should not be left alone with the sibling. Do not expect that they will tell you all that is being said and done when you are not watching; they are afraid to rock the boat. Just know that it IS worse when you are not watching.

 

The needs of the atypical child do not eliminate the needs of the other children. I personally think this means acknowledging that the atypical child is sometimes going to miss something that might be helpful for them: another therapy session, a lecture for the parents, uninterrupted attention. Parents think they are horrible if they don't do every last thing that maybe, might, perhaps help, but the fact is that you can't do everything for the atypical child without neglecting the needs of the other kids.

 

Don't expect the other kids to always be able to graciously give in because the sibling needs more help, more parenting, more attention.

 

And, to repeat an important one, acknowledge that it is hard on the siblings. It would have meant the world to me if my parents would have acknowledged what I was going through, rather than trying to pretend that my sibling's behaviors fell into the realm of normal. Like I couldn't express that their 2 AM rage of destruction was frightening, because I once threw a toy truck when I was 6, kwim?

Oh my goodness, yes. This. My answer froze and I never came back to retype , but you said it better. Especially the last paragraph.

 

Also, consider counseling even if the sibling is reluctant.

Oh and one I am seeing irl--don't be surprised if sibling is angry with and about intense sibling. Don't act surprised or disappointed in sibling that the things intense child does and the attention it takes makes sibling angry. S/he is not an adult with mature perspective and experiences much of what happens as abuse, not as unfortunate symptoms of siblings special needs.

[Farrar]

I didn't... but I wanted to chip in that at the right age, the book Rules by Cynthia Lord - which she based on her own kids - is about being the "normal" sibling in a family where the brother is autistic. A good one to strew or read with the more typical kids potentially. It's a "girl" book, but my boys (who aren't even in that situation) liked it.

 

I didn't read most of these posts as scapegoating the atypical kid, by the way... I read them as angry with the parents for not working to mitigate a tough situation.

[BooksandBoys]

Okay, I'll try.

 

First, I'm right where you are. One very intense, often difficult child with multiple diagnoses, and a suffering sibling. I do not for one moment believe I'm doing enough to support the sibling, nor am I sure it's possible to really do enough. We are all very clear on the fact that life is not fair.

 

What I am doing:

 

1. Counseling for dd1, with her own therapist she does not share with her sister. This therapist's job is simply to support dd1.

    I'm planning to start family counseling soon to support all of us as we navigate being a family with multiple diagnoses across several kids. I will definitely keep in mind the possible need for individual therapists too (and a good family therapist would, I hope, tell us if they thought he needed it). DS3, being only 2, is probably a bit young for individual, but I will be interested to see what happens in family therapy related to him.

 

2. School for dd1. Sadly, we reached the point at which we could see she needed not to be homeschooled. Her sister simply sucked all the air out of our days, and I couldn't give her the attention or the atmosphere she needed. She is better off at a good school, though it about killed me to reach that conclusion.

     I'm struggling with this one. We don't believe DS1 should go to school, and he doesn't want to (at least not now). We are actively pursuing enrolling DS2 (subject of this thread) in preschool. I think he will like it, and if it's a bad fit for him, we'll reevaluate. 

3. All the outside activities I can manage, to give her a life outside our fraught household. It has not always been possible to let her do all the activities she wants, because many require parent volunteer efforts or time commitments that we just can't manage. But I have tried to get her out of the house as much as possible.

4. Inside the house, her room needs to be her sanctuary. We've made sure she has a lock, and we try to let her have things that help make it feel safe: a white noise app on her tablet, her music, calming CDs, comfy bedding.

      Currently, DS1 and DS2 share a room. They aren't alone awake together, as they fall asleep in separate bedrooms, then we move the one that was in my room that evening into their room. DS2 wakes really early, so he's well out of the room before DS1 wakes up. However, it's becoming clear to me that DS1 needs a place to protect his things from his brother's anger. This is a new development (before, he would only lash out at me and my things, not those of his brothers), so we're suddenly trying to figure out what that our options are. The toddler really isn't old enough to be trusted in a bedroom with big boy things, so I'm not sure how to make this work...

 

5. A chance to learn about her sister's conditions by participating in her therapy sessions. Some of the advice dd2's therapists have given dd1 has been very helpful.

 

6. What I'd like to do, but haven't been able to manage, is find a support group for siblings. There isn't one at the moment, and I don't seem to have the energy to start it. :-(

 

I hope that helps a bit, and I'll be listening in for other ideas. I do know how hard it is.

    Thanks.

 

[BooksandBoys]

You're getting good suggestions already.

 

Acknowledge what the other kids are going through, give them safe spaces, try to make up for it when you can.

 

Send one kid to camp in June, the other in July - seriously, they need time away from each other! Do it in whatever way is practical, but do it if at all possible. 

 

Protect them physically. Don't ever think that an over-the-top kid is not going to physically react in an over-the-top way. Don't downplay it when the others say this kid hurt them. The other kids deserve physical safety. 

 

Make 'escape plans' for the other kids (this will come into play when they get older). They need to have permission to break the usual rules if the sibling is out of control - even if parents are home, uncontrollable raging is scary. Can they lock themselves in their room and get extra screen time with headphones to block the noise? Can they walk to the park or library? 

 

Know that, whatever is being said and done in your presence, it is 10x worse when they are not in your presence. Do not expect more typical kids to be able to protect themselves physically or emotionally; they really should not be left alone with the sibling. Do not expect that they will tell you all that is being said and done when you are not watching; they are afraid to rock the boat. Just know that it IS worse when you are not watching. 

 

The needs of the atypical child do not eliminate the needs of the other children. I personally think this means acknowledging that the atypical child is sometimes going to miss something that might be helpful for them: another therapy session, a lecture for the parents, uninterrupted attention. Parents think they are horrible if they don't do every last thing that maybe, might, perhaps help, but the fact is that you can't do everything for the atypical child without neglecting the needs of the other kids. 

 

Don't expect the other kids to always be able to graciously give in because the sibling needs more help, more parenting, more attention.

 

And, to repeat an important one, acknowledge that it is hard on the siblings. It would have meant the world to me if my parents would have acknowledged what I was going through, rather than trying to pretend that my sibling's behaviors fell into the realm of normal. Like I couldn't express that their 2 AM rage of destruction was frightening, because I once threw a toy truck when I was 6, kwim? 

 

 

Your post hit me hard in a few places, katilac. Thank you. The bit about one child not getting a necessary therapy or that lecture so that another child can have my attention or time is something to really contemplate, especially as I have 2 out of 3 who need a lot of therapies (and lectures. :-). I'm going to have to really think about that.

 

I appreciate your point about not expecting my kids to give in graciously all the time. That's important. 

 

And, can I cry at the thought of sending them to camp at separate times? I've been dreaming of the year when they are all old enough to go to camp together so I can have a week off.  :leaving:

But, what you said makes sense. It would be good to separate them as they get older to give them breaks from each other.

[gardenmom5]

The notes! Oh ya...I tried that. I got in trouble for that too. My mother and father didnt speak to me for over a week because I wrote down my frustrations about too many punishments and expectations and my desire to have one on one time with my parents. They said that what I said was hurtful. I even spoke tearfully with my pastor after church about what I said in the note and the fact that they were no longer speaking to me, which angered them more because now I tried to make other people listen to my complaining. That was the last time I put any trust in "open communication" with my parents or any faith in their statements that they cared about me. As an adult I know they love me as one of their children, but they do not know or understand me as a person. We will never be able to openly communicate.

 

Moral of that story...if you are going to go the note route, make sure you are prepared to not take the raw feelings of a resentful, hurting child who is trying to reach out as a personal attack. If you do, you will close the door to open communication. And yes, their words may sting, but they are hurting and need to have a place to get it out, even if some of the blame or frustration is misplaced. If you cannot be this person, a counselor is needed.

 

reminds me of my grandmother.  my sister (as an adult) wrote her a letter that she needed to spend some time caretaking herself and some "alone" time.  my grandmother made it. all. about. her.

 

when dd would do notes - it was two way communication.  we'd talk, she'd write (because she'd get too upset to talk.)

 

one thing about the way I was reared - I made d4amn sure I didn't raise my kids that way!

[BooksandBoys]

These are things I've done that I hope helped my typical child. This child has two atypical siblings, one of which is the intense, suck-the-life-out-of-the-family type.

 

It took me a long time to realize we were never going to be able to do things as a family and build good family memories together. Activities that include intense child had to be geared to what we guessed intense would enjoy and that guess had to be correct or we'd pay. So, I had to drop the idea of "family activities", " family time", or "family vacations." I wish I'd realized and accepted this when they where young or at least still elementary age.

 

After this realization, at first it seemed we'd never do activities again since we couldn't all fo them. Then, I decided I could leave dh and intense child home and take short trips. This idea made me a bit nervous because I'd never traveled with kids (with one exception) and not dh. But we just started doing it and it was not hard at all. We camped at the beach. We started doing longer road trips. And now my typical child seems to have a bank of fun memories vacationing with mom and not intense, but not typical sibling. Some of these trips were utilitarian (college visits), some were short beach visits, some were long drives to see family friends and cool stuff on the way or near friends. Last summer we did our biggest trip , which was involved a very long car ride and a few days at universal studios. So, special family memories do not need to include all family members at once.

 

 

Everything you said was helpful, thanks, but this was really something I needed to hear. I've been struggling so much with the reality that I just Cannot Do the fun things that other people seem to be able to do with their children. We could make so many more memories if I took them one at a time instead of avoiding the activities altogether. This includes my intense guy. He is so happy and relatively calm when he gets one-on-one time (it doesn't seem to transfer into better behavior when we are back with the family though...I have tried that "fill the love tank" idea repeatedly, so, no ulterior motives here), so we can really enjoy ourselves if we separate out. 

[BooksandBoys]

 

Ok, I might have some baggage here.... but this thread is all about baggage right? lol

 

Yep!

[BooksandBoys]

Don't beat yourself up over this.  My dad once said to me we can't help but eff our kids up a bit because we go into parenting a bit effed up ourselves.  It's true.  None of us are perfect parents even without these challenges.

 

So true, Sparkly. 

[gardenmom5]

Y

 

I appreciate your point about not expecting my kids to give in graciously all the time. That's important. 

 

And, can I cry at the thought of sending them to camp at separate times? I've been dreaming of the year when they are all old enough to go to camp together so I can have a week off.  :leaving:

But, what you said makes sense. It would be good to separate them as they get older to give them breaks from each other.

 

it's okay to be frustrated. do remember, they really do grow up fast.  it's intense, but it doesn't last.   I'd be "done" (and waiting on grandkids  :toetap05:  - and no, I wouldn't dream of saying anything to my kids.)  if we hadn't started over.  and my only married child is moving to texas . . . . (only four hours non-stop by plane.)

[BooksandBoys]

I didn't... but I wanted to chip in that at the right age, the book Rules by Cynthia Lord - which she based on her own kids - is about being the "normal" sibling in a family where the brother is autistic. A good one to strew or read with the more typical kids potentially. It's a "girl" book, but my boys (who aren't even in that situation) liked it.

 

I didn't read most of these posts as scapegoating the atypical kid, by the way... I read them as angry with the parents for not working to mitigate a tough situation.

 

Thanks for the book suggestion. 

 

I agree. My goal with this thread was definitely to scapegoat myself, never my kid. :-) 

[gardenmom5]

Don't beat yourself up over this.  My dad once said to me we can't help but eff our kids up a bit because we go into parenting a bit effed up ourselves.  It's true.  None of us are perfect parents even without these challenges.

 

and the beatings never stop unless you choose to stop them. . . . mil is 90.  she called this morning.  she is constantly beating herself up for not doing a better job with bil (asd  and schizoprenia.)  he's been dead for 8? years. (the nice thing is I hear alot of "you're doing such a great job" from her.)

 

there's a limit to what you can do.   I had to give mil "the lecture".  there's a limit to what you can do. at some point, the choice is theirs.

[gardenmom5]

Ugh....this thread brings up so many things.

 

Definitely agree that things are probably 100x worse when you are not around.  My parents once said, "We were afraid to leave you with (brother) because we thought he'd kill you."  (Yet they were gone/traveling a ton.) 

 

If there are opposite genders, don't discount the possibility of sexual assault/molestation... or at least be aware of it.  After all, nobody protects the typical child from physical abuse, why protect them from sexual abuse?

 

Acknowledge that the typical child too has struggles and issues.  Don't think that just because comparatively this child is "good" that they don't need help.

 

THIS!

 

i will not go there I will not go there I will not go there . . . . . .

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm really uncomfortable with the extent to which the atypical kid is being regarded as the 'enemy' in this thread.

 

I think that it is pretty common for scapegoating to occur in families, with one person being defined as the root of all trouble, but it is rarely completely accurate.  

 

It IS important not to let a challenging kid suck up all the energy in the family, and to protect the others as well, but it's also important to be realistic about the normal challenges of family life and not to 'assign' them all to one issue or person.

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father.  The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate.  It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

 

Maybe.  I don't think that is necessarily what was meant though.  I think when a sibling has a lot of challenges they get a lot of attention (positive and negative). 

 

My sibling often made up lies about stuff I didn't do.  I got in trouble many times because of it.  I have sympathy for her in the sense maybe she could not help it, but it wasn't pleasant for me either. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

and the beatings never stop unless you choose to stop them. . . . mil is 90.  she called this morning.  she is constantly beating herself up for not doing a better job with bil (asd  and schizoprenia.)  he's been dead for 8? years. (the nice thing is I hear alot of "you're doing such a great job" from her.)

 

there's a limit to what you can do.   I had to give mil "the lecture".  there's a limit to what you can do. at some point, the choice is theirs.

 

That is so challenging. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father.  The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate.  It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

 

I think part of why this happens is because people see alcoholism as something that can be helped or changed.  (I don't see it that way.) 

[KungFuPanda]

Pay attention to the non-squeaky wheel. Offer them support even when they don't "need" it. Remember, these patterns will continue into adulthood. When your difficult child needs lots of hands-on support to raise their children, TRY to spend time with the grand kids who have capable parents too. Those kids are just as deserving of a relationship as the kids with screwed up parents. The capable kids will give up on you and stop asking you to be a proactive participant in their lives. If you care, carve out the time. If you don't make time for them because you're too busy putting out fires, they will emotionally distance themselves from you and your dysfunction.

 

Do NOT put all of your time, effort, and resources into your troubled children and expect your capable children to be your old age support. That's like blowing all your money on the lottery then wondering why those Apple stocks you never bought aren't paying off.

[KungFuPanda]

One more thing. CHOOSE the typical child more often. Don't ALWAYS expect them to give in, back down, and just cope because they can. Try to inch your 90-10 attention split closer to 80-20 this year. Get it to at least 60-40 before they're teenagers and it does a number on their heads. They'll come to believe that you see your relationship with them as disposable and the relationship with the troubled sibling as worth the investment.

Edited December 31, 2015 by KungFuPanda

[freesia]

I'm really uncomfortable with the extent to which the atypical kid is being regarded as the 'enemy' in this thread.

 

I think that it is pretty common for scapegoating to occur in families, with one person being defined as the root of all trouble, but it is rarely completely accurate.  

 

It IS important not to let a challenging kid suck up all the energy in the family, and to protect the others as well, but it's also important to be realistic about the normal challenges of family life and not to 'assign' them all to one issue or person.

 

For example, in my extended family is a a mentally ill mother (paranoid schizophrenia) and an alcoholic, partially disabled father.  The alcoholism was blamed by EVERYONE for every single thing wrong in that family, but there were multiple issues and in that particular case scapegoating the father entirely was inaccurate.  It's the same with kids; also scapegoating or actively disliking the kid who is atypical can make him worse.

See, I am upset from my own family of origin and families I see in real life how many excuses are made for the atypical child's behavior and how much is expected of the typical child. I see much much more expected of the typical child in terms of maturity, and tbh much too little often expected of the atypical child.

 

Your first line is exactly the type of denial and over-protecting of the atypical at the expense of the typical child that I see way too often. I understand that the atypical child has struggles and needs to be understood, but it is a HUGE stress on siblings and they need to be protected and understood sometimes at the expense of the atypical child.

 

And yes I am being blunt, but I am really, really tired of seeing this happen.

Edited December 31, 2015 by freesia