unsinkable Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Really, you wouldn't take a punch in the face right now for $20,000? I sure as heck would. Debt free in a day, just lose one tooth. I'd take it right now. I'll even take a punch in the face for $10,000. One punch per $10k. Of course the parents wouldn't offer it! I mean the kids would ask. Imagine, if all you had to do was get kicked out and voila, half of college could be paid for in Pell grants. My point is just to say, desperation is high and you normally would not get anywhere even if you were kicked out. . Edited November 25, 2015 by unsinkable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IfIOnly Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Not going into my past circumstances, but I was given a Pell grant and know that, yes, your circumstances have to be pretty dire. I totally flunked my first semester of college and dropped out because I was incredibly ill prepared for it (absolutely no parent involvement in my high-school education, I had even dropped out for a year and then went back, advanced to the next grades and even graduated when I shouldn't have been, etc.). I wish someone had guided me better in taking just the basics and even noncredit classed in the beginning to set me up for success (medical terminology, um, so dumb of me), but that's another story. Edited November 25, 2015 by LavenderGirl 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I think reporting that a person punched his kid in the face would lead to criminal proceedings, so no thanks. :P Besides, I could never do it to my daughters, no matter how hormonal they got. I think it's ridiculous that a truly independent young adult can't get an education. However, I assume that is because too many people faked in the past, in order to get aid that should have gone to someone more hard up. I think the upcoming generation will be the creative one when it comes to making higher education work (legally). 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Tsuga, I'm curious if you considered Willamette University for your undergrad degree? It sounds like you would have gotten excellent merit aid from them for both academics and music, and they are also generally known for good financial aid. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I think reporting that a person punched his kid in the face would lead to criminal proceedings, so no thanks. :p Besides, I could never do it to my daughters, no matter how hormonal they got. I think it's ridiculous that a truly independent young adult can't get an education. However, I assume that is because too many people faked in the past, in order to get aid that should have gone to someone more hard up. I think the upcoming generation will be the creative one when it comes to making higher education work (legally). Man, if ONLY getting punched in the face would lead inevitably lead to prosecution every time! I hope nobody thinks I am suggesting this is in any way a viable option! Obviously it is a horrible thing to do (dishonest to start with and all downhill from there morally speaking). My point was only to say that simply not being supported by parents will not get you independence on the FAFSA, but that it has to be much, much worse than that, so I'm not sure what went on in that particular poster's situation but it could not have been "mom won't help so I declared independence by filling out a lot of forms". But yes if anyone wants to pay someone $10,000 for getting punched in the face I will sign any waiver. It's not unheard of. Boxers do it all the time. And Frances, for me, no I did not at the time. This was 1995 and I had the worst guidance counselor ever. He didn't tell me about ANY regional private schools. I just knew what the church showed me which were all evangelist Christian schools. None of them are known for merit aid. Oh well. The past is the past. Our regional schools are great. What I want for my kids is the best education possible, better than I had. Edited November 25, 2015 by Tsuga 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 This was 1995 and I had the worst guidance counselor ever. What I want for my kids is the best education possible, better than I had. :grouphug: for the first even if you reminded me again of my age. ;) Kudos to the second part. I think your kids will have the opportunity to do well. :coolgleamA: (Actually doing well is up to them, but they have a great mama looking out for them.) 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 And Frances, for me, no I did not at the time. This was 1995 and I had the worst guidance counselor ever. He didn't tell me about ANY regional private schools. I just knew what the church showed me which were all evangelist Christian schools. None of them are known for merit aid. Oh well. The past is the past. Our regional schools are great. I don't even necessarily trust guidance counselors to be looking for what is best for that particular child, especially in public school. Where I live, there are some public high schools that are very obviously trying to protect their high reps and, as such, they point many a kid to colleges that IMO said kid has no business attending, nevermind pointing kids towards college who would be much better off taking a different route to their futures. But NOoooo! We can't lose our high stats that say 86% go to four-year colleges and 42% go to top tier. (I made up those stats, BTW; they are illustrative, not factual.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frances Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't even necessarily trust guidance counselors to be looking for what is best for that particular child, especially in public school. Where I live, there are some public high schools that are very obviously trying to protect their high reps and, as such, they point many a kid to colleges that IMO said kid has no business attending, nevermind pointing kids towards college who would be much better off taking a different route to their futures. But NOoooo! We can't lose our high stats that say 86% go to four-year colleges and 42% go to top tier. (I made up those stats, BTW; they are illustrative, not factual.) One of my nieces ended up at a top 20 LAC with significant merit and financial aid only because of the guidance provided by me and her mom. Despite going to a very good high school in a city with a much higher than average education level and graduating as valedictorian, her guidance counselor was beyond clueless. I thought my high school guidance counselor was lame, but hers took things to a whole new level. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't even necessarily trust guidance counselors to be looking for what is best for that particular child, especially in public school. A dad in one of the top performing districts nearby told us that in his assigned public high school, at most the top 10% is well taken care of for advertising purpose, the bottom 10% is taken care of to minimise failure stats, the middle 80% has to take care of themselves including hiring private guidance counselors. The private high school we toured recently had a guidance counselor to every 30 graduating students. That was an attractive ratio to the parents of current students. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 My point is just to say, desperation is high and you normally would not get anywhere even if you were kicked out. Hmmmmm, I guess I would think that someone desperate enough to take a few punches in the face and pretend to be estranged from family in order to pay for college might be willing to look for alternative solutions to finance a college education, even if those solutions weren't ideal. I think you said you are in Washington state, right? I just hit Google and looked up "Washington state community colleges." I found the website for the Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges. I picked one school at random, North Seattle College, and looked up the tuition and fees. Tuition runs $102 per credit hour for state residents, and students actually get a slight discount as the number of hours taken per semester goes up. A full-time load of 12 credit hours is $1,129 per semester. The fees page lists a bunch of small fees, most of which are required only for specific courses. So, a full-time load of 12-15 credit hours per semester--even assuming a student managed to rack up $200 in assorted fees--would run about $300 - $370 per month. Assuming a student lives at home, she could cover those costs herself with a part-time job working about 15 hours per week for $7.50 an hour. For what it's worth, the non-resident elearning rate is only slightly higher. Yes, community colleges in general and certain community colleges specifically may not be the best fit for every student, but it's one example of a perhaps better alternative than the more drastic measures you (hyperbolically) suggested. (By the way, according to a few sources, the average tuition and fees for in-state students in Washington runs under $11,000. They are number 10 on one list of the most expensive state schools that I ran across. Number one is actually New Hampshire, with average tuition and fees of $14,500 per year.) 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 In answer to this question, the school took pity on me. My custodial parent had been unemployed for the two years straddling my HS graduation and college enrollment. By the time she was gainfully employed again, I was in the middle of my junior year. My brother's death and her subsequent relationship left us estranged. I did not return back to her home after that, claimed my father as my custodial parent (because as much as he could be, he was), and the school took pity on me and let me make that change. That was 1994-5. My dad was only a half a step less broke than I was b/c it took 20 years for his VA disability claim to be fully adjudicated (which now allows him to live a comfortable, middle-class life). Essentially, they increased my grant a bit and my University Direct Student Loan to fill in the gap. Even as a freshman, my mom's credit was so bad that she wasn't eligible for a parent PLUS loan. I had already been classified as a financially independent student for all intents and purposes. So basically you actually were, prior to enrollment, estranged and would have met the criteria. That is exactly what that rule is for. However parents simply refusing to pay for the launch are not the same thing. There are a lot of parents like that who doom their children to poverty. I know my mom had to pay down her home and I had to pay it myself. But that is simply not the same situation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Hmmmmm, I guess I would think that someone desperate enough to take a few punches in the face and pretend to be estranged from family in order to pay for college might be willing to look for alternative solutions to finance a college education, even if those solutions weren't ideal. I think you said you are in Washington state, right? I just hit Google and looked up "Washington state community colleges." I found the website for the Washington State Board for Community and Technical Colleges. I picked one school at random, North Seattle College, and looked up the tuition and fees. Tuition runs $102 per credit hour for state residents, and students actually get a slight discount as the number of hours taken per semester goes up. A full-time load of 12 credit hours is $1,129 per semester. The fees page lists a bunch of small fees, most of which are required only for specific courses. So, a full-time load of 12-15 credit hours per semester--even assuming a student managed to rack up $200 in assorted fees--would run about $300 - $370 per month. Assuming a student lives at home, she could cover those costs herself with a part-time job working about 15 hours per week for $7.50 an hour. For what it's worth, the non-resident elearning rate is only slightly higher. Yes, community colleges in general and certain community colleges specifically may not be the best fit for every student, but it's one example of a perhaps better alternative than the more drastic measures you (hyperbolically) suggested. (By the way, according to a few sources, the average tuition and fees for in-state students in Washington runs under $11,000. They are number 10 on one list of the most expensive state schools that I ran across. Number one is actually New Hampshire, with average tuition and fees of $14,500 per year.) There are other fees. The website lists most but not all. This year the three quarters full-time tuition is: $4,458. That's for three quarters, and you must pay within the quarter, so divide that by nine, and you get about $500/quarter. That's tuition and fees only, not including books. http://webshares.northseattle.edu/financialaid/2015-16%20%20FA%20Cost%20of%20Attendance.pdf If you look at their monthly payment plans, you can see how this works out. And I agree that our state is not the most expensive overall, no, this thread is more me realizing how little I make compared to tuition, not to say we have it worse off. Some people are way, way worse off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Hmmmmm, I guess I would think that someone desperate enough to take a few punches in the face and pretend to be estranged from family in order to pay for college might be willing to look for alternative solutions to finance a college education, even if those solutions weren't ideal. You know, having sticker shock is not at all the same as saying, "Boohoo, guess we can't go to college." Let me once again point out that I worked from the age of 15, worked 80 hour weeks all summer and 30 hour weeks through school, worked 2+ jobs most of my life at this point, paid my way, and did it. I served my country, and my ex-H serves the country. I am totally into alternative solutions. My purpose in starting this thread was not to dismiss alternative solutions--in fact I have embraced every single one wholeheartedly, from service academies to the military to working to community college to dual enrollment to AP to OOS regional Us to expanding my understanding of LACs in the midwest. Not once have I said, "No, that's not good enough." I am totally open to all these suggestions, including a punch in the face. I lived them and live them now. However, that doesn't mean that it's not flipping insane that you can save your entire child support for 10 years and add on $6k of pre-recession savings and still not be able to pay for college. Does that not seem crazy to you? Obviously we'll do what we have to. Obviously. And I'd be so proud to have kids make sacrifices for their own education. But can you really blame me for wanting better for my kids? There's no need for a judgmental tone on this. We are all facing it together. Edited November 25, 2015 by Tsuga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 There are other fees. The website lists most but not all. This year the three quarters full-time tuition is: $4,458. That's for three quarters, and you must pay within the quarter, so divide that by nine, and you get about $500/quarter. That's tuition and fees only, not including books. http://webshares.northseattle.edu/financialaid/2015-16%20%20FA%20Cost%20of%20Attendance.pdf Okay, so I added up full-time tuition and fees and even threw in books, $5508 per year. Yes, tuition must be paid within the quarter. However, a student could work year-round to earn the money. That works out to $459 per month (over a 12-month period), or $110 per week if the student worked 50 weeks a year. If we again assume a student is making $7.50 per hour (and I think you said that minimum wage in your part of the world is significantly higher), that is still about 15 hours per week to earn enough to cover the full amount. A student who wanted to take summers off from work would need to work a bit more per week. At $7.50 per hour, she would need to work about 20 hours per week for nine months to earn the required $5508. Still pretty do-able, it seems to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The face punching is getting disturbing and WHEN did we all start saying "tippy-top?" 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Χά�ων Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Okay, so I added up full-time tuition and fees and even threw in books, $5508 per year. Yes, tuition must be paid within the quarter. However, a student could work year-round to earn the money. That works out to $459 per month (over a 12-month period), or $110 per week if the student worked 50 weeks a year. If we again assume a student is making $7.50 per hour (and I think you said that minimum wage in your part of the world is significantly higher), that is still about 15 hours per week to earn enough to cover the full amount. A student who wanted to take summers off from work would need to work a bit more per week. At $7.50 per hour, she would need to work about 20 hours per week for nine months to earn the required $5508. Still pretty do-able, it seems to me. That number is not reality where I live and you forgot to include food and housing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That number is not reality where I live and you forgot to include food and housing. I didn't forget. We were talking about alternative solutions including living at home and attending community college. The numbers I was using were taken from the website of a community college in the OP's home state. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joanne Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Some thoughts. My context is as a mom who recently sent a child to a small, expensive college. A professional who has worked at a CC. A high school admin who handles the college app process. There is 245 BILLION dollars available to assist students for college. Most of that money is issue through the Federal Government. The State offers some (such as the Texas Equalization Grant). Private scholarships are less than 2%! (And if you get them, they may displace "need") ( Savings plans also displace need) The school itself allocates 30% of the available funds. Over and over, I have seen private colleges end up costing the least out of pocket after it is all said and done. My dd had very average test scores (but a stellar transcript). She got merit aid, some pell grant, a "Presidential Scholarship" from the university and, yes, loans. I pay approximately $400 a month. Some assumptions and ideas and opinions for our family: 1. The traditional 4 year has merit we are willing to work towards and make sacrifices for. 2. We are not against loans for education. 3. The college experience of my generation (and the experience post graduation) is relatively meaningless for today's world. Edited November 25, 2015 by Joanne 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Also whenever having these conversations I do feel like... nobody talks about their own college journey. How did you guys pay for college? Am I on some generational cusp where we were the first ones to take out loans even while working 30 hours a week during school and 80 over summers? My college experience isn't even relevant in today's world. I started college in 1983 at 16 (turned 17 the first month). I took out one loan for $2500 and paid for the rest by working and through Pell Grants. Back then, you had to prove you had been living independently from your parents for a year and that you were not claimed on their tax returns as a dependent in order to get "independent" status and get a Pell Grant. So, I was able to get a grant my second year. My mom was a single mom (dad died when I was 8) and didn't have money to put us kids through school, so we worked. Tuition at my state university was around $2500 a year when I started. I lived in off-campus housing (cheaper than on-campus) with a bunch of other girls. I slept on my brother's floor for a month one year and another year I slept on a friend's floor for a couple of months until I could afford to share an apartment with some other kids--but I never was without food. I generally worked about 25-30 hours per week throughout the year and full-time in the summers. The summers I worked at a camp, it probably was 80+ hours a week, but we didn't get paid by the hour there! All in all, it was hard work but not a "hardship" and not "undoable" back then to work your way through college. My husband took a gap year and paid his whole way through with no loans. Life certainly works differently now! We'll find ways to make it work, but it's not at all the same picture. Still, God has brought us through many things. I'm thankful for the education I received, and look forward to my kids' college education and all the changes they'll go through, the things they'll think about and learn, the world that will open up to them--exciting times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuga Posted November 25, 2015 Author Share Posted November 25, 2015 Okay, so I added up full-time tuition and fees and even threw in books, $5508 per year. Yes, tuition must be paid within the quarter. However, a student could work year-round to earn the money. That works out to $459 per month (over a 12-month period), or $110 per week if the student worked 50 weeks a year. If we again assume a student is making $7.50 per hour (and I think you said that minimum wage in your part of the world is significantly higher), that is still about 15 hours per week to earn enough to cover the full amount. A student who wanted to take summers off from work would need to work a bit more per week. At $7.50 per hour, she would need to work about 20 hours per week for nine months to earn the required $5508. Still pretty do-able, it seems to me. Yes, my kids could definitely pay for community college tuition and live at home. My point is not to say college is impossible, but holy crap, you can save for ten years and still not have a chance at going to a four-year. I mean, there are students not on a 50% ride and not children of investment bankers who, at one time, actually did such things, you know? That's the story they're still telling children in our town, around the country. The child of a single mom who screwed up and had a child out of wedlock (or two) and didn't go to college until 30 deserves the cheap option. The child of a woman who worked for 10 straight years, has a career, and is saving upwards of $1000/month should NOT have to face the exact same options. I mean what IS that? Where are we going? And why is the discussion, "You're expecting too much, Tsuga. You, who paid for three degrees and worked your whole life--why do you think your kids deserve to go to anything other than the military and CC? That's what you deserve." No. That's not fair. I worked for better for my kids, not the same thing as my single mom who drank my pre-school years away! We'll do it if we have to, obviously, but you're kind of missing the point. There is 245 BILLION dollars available to assist students for college. Most of that money is issue through the Federal Government. The State offers some (such as the Texas Equalization Grant). Thank you Joanne. I do really value your opinion due to your experience. What you say is true, but my kids will not be eligible for need grants. Nor was I. Not a penny. If both your parents are working full time, and I see the FAFSA data on a daily basis, there is no need money available to you. That money was not for me while my mom was a nurse, and that money is not available to my children with two employed parents. It's for the poor. I see how it is distributed and mainly 10 - 30% of tuitions at CCs, if not more, are waived. The rest pay in part or full. Only "low income" people get all that money. Not my kids, not with the work I'm putting in, not with the property we want to get. All I'm saying is that I can't save enough... though I will. I will just plain have to leave one job and get paid more. :) and, yes, loans. Well yes, I agree. I think something is getting lost in this thread. Clearly, joining the Army and taking out loans will allow almost anybody to get a college education of some sort by going to CC and then moving forward to University of Phoenix or Arizona State University. Clearly. I completely agree: that is well within the reach of my children and most children. I think the key here is that if you've read my posts, you know that we are working at what is technically an upper-middle class salary in a high COL area, but we've had ups and downs. And what I'm realizing is that ​even with only two kids and an upper middle class salary, you still don't have a snowball's chance in hell if your child does not have 50% + significant merit aid. And there is no choice as to where you go. I'm not trying to say, "Oh no, we can't go". Not at all! I appreciate the ideas! The knowledge of the cheaper, well-endowed LACs in the midwest is something I didn't think of. And besides that, my kids each have a second language and will test for college admission in another country. The point is to say we can't save for a four-year college--I mean obviously some people get in as freshmen, who are they??? The face punching is getting disturbing and WHEN did we all start saying "tippy-top?" It's gallows humor. I'm sorry you are disturbed. I'm disturbed by the entire system. This is where I vent. I paid my own school, I'll pay my kids, it will cost altogether over $200,000 including loan interest, housing and all that, and if you don't get the desperation and hopelessness in that scenario, well, I don't know what to say. It's really demoralizing. You just want it to end. People have killed themselves over student loans. I hardly think a joke about "I'm an abused child, please give me Pell and not Stafford" is the worst thing people say about college costs. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/c-cryn-johannsen/student-loan-debt-suicides_b_1638972.html That said obviously this is all hyperbole, so please just take it as such. Where I work we joke about plasma donation. That's actually much more significant and students sell plasma all the time, so this is not... this is not some random, "Oh poor me" thing. I know people who sold plasma. I only couldn't sell mine because I was too anemic, being a teen vegetarian. I'm not asking for pity because I fully realize that most people have nothing saved and that we are incredibly lucky. My oldest--not counting steps, sadly I cannot give them cash right now though I try to manage money with their upcoming tuition payments in mind--is only in 3rd grade and we have $6k. From the outside, my partner and I, kids of single parents, we are "success stories". What I'm saying is that four-year college costs are insane, not that we can't do it. If anybody can do it, I can do it. I am so there. I do appreciate all the help but I don't appreciate people saying over and over, 'Well what about CC?" I know about CC. I work at one. That's not really what I'm talking about. What about just EMT training and conservatory and being a bus driver by day and piano teacher by night? Yes, that would be awesome. However, as a parent you want your child to have choices. We all want that. It's just sad that real choices are accessible to so few. I've decided: 1. I will just save more. 2. I will do this by quitting my job in academia and make more elsewhere. This could take time but even adding $300 per month to child support will put us over the edge. That's the extra 20%. 3. I will look into the money market and manage my savings more responsibly so that at the very least we get interest, whereas right now we get jack all. My goal is not to "make do" as a victim. My goal is to make the American Dream work for me no matter what. The way I see it, my whole upbringing was raising me to be a responsible citizen and "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Some people get sick. Some people have spouses die. Some people simply can't do what we do. I have gifts and I am determined by the end of my life to have my kids in homes and grandkids cared for. I don't even see what the point of being alive is, other than that. What are other people living for? I'm living for family first, then community. When I was little my mother used to talk about how her father came home from the war and what he said he wanted for them. What he planned. He saved so much. He saved and invested and now my grandma, she is so happy. She has everything in her retirement home. Never met another man, never wanted to, not in 35 years alone. Imagine. My mom was so in love with her dad for his virtue. She worked for us, went to bed at 10, got up at 3 to study. Worked and worked so we could have a home and when she sold it, gave us a gift each (this was recently, not during college). We both spent it on the kids, me paying off school related debts and my sister, I don't know what, I believe putting it into education savings as they hadn't saved. To me it's not that my kids can't go to college--they can. But even if they couldn't, that wouldn't be as upsetting as the fact that I had failed at my basic purpose in life. I think some people don't get that. I was supposed to be able to do it. Knowing that I might not be able to climb up the ladder, to raise my standard of living significantly, and provide for my kids' college, that would be really unbearable for me. If they join a service academy out of duty to country, well, just the thought of it brings tears to my eyes, tears of pride and hope. But honestly, if they join because they have no other options, I'll feel like a failure. I get the other options, really, truly I do and I want them to be there. But for me, for myself, I want to give my kids choices. If they choose to work and go to CC and take that savings for a down payment on a house, god bless their little hearts, I will be so proud. But if they are working not for advancement but to stave off a life of poverty, then what the hell have I been working for?!?!? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Tsuga, I'm sorry this is so frustrating for you. I'm not really seeing why you're so deeply disturbed about it - college costs have inflated and it sucks, but it's not somehow failing at one's job as a parent to have kid who cannot afford fully paid school with zero loans. It's a separate issue from your worth and abilities as a parent. I don't think I 'get' your angle on this, but it makes me sad for you that it's such a big issue in your life. The college costs are ridiculous, but getting fed up or depressed about it doesn't solve anything. I hope you find the right answer for your family and can sleep easier over the subject. :grouphug: Edited November 25, 2015 by Arctic Mama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 It's gallows humor. I'm sorry you are disturbed. I'm disturbed by the entire system. This is where I vent. I paid my own school, I'll pay my kids, it will cost altogether over $200,000 including loan interest, housing and all that, and if you don't get the desperation and hopelessness in that scenario, well, I don't know what to say. Tsuga, I understand what you're saying - look, we've got twelve kids to get through this system. I get it. The problem is you are caught up in the drama of it because it's apparently shocking to you and painful. There are those of us who never, ever planned to send our kids to CC. Such is life and I have to say, DS is really enjoying his experience there for two years while he finishes up high school and heads off to state school. Did I want private college for my kids? Absolutely. My husband worked his tail off to get his degrees. The military paid off $65k, mostly paid for his grad degrees, and we have another $50-$55k in student loans currently. He worked one full time job 2nd shift, went to school, AND delivered pizzas. I babysat during the day, and took a few classes here and there. I'm currently (at darn near 40) taking a few classes. Some day I'll actually have that degree. (BTW, the classes are at CC and I'll only transfer to state school when CC is no longer relevant and useful. Know why? Because they USE THE SAME TEXTS and my education - what I get out of it, how hard I study, is actually up to ME. I'm in control of this.) $200,000? That's $100,000 each? Local CC? $145 per credit. 60 credits to an AA. $8,750 worth of college credits to get to Junior status. Live. At. Home. State Tuition? Let's assume you can't live at home and commute for this one. Our state tuition for the state flagship is $9k. Living expenses is another $11k. That's $20k times 2 for 2 years to graduate. Which, btw, if you're SERIOUSLY financially strapped, then your kid, if not working, needs to take excess hours. My DD has achieved Junior status in 3 semesters - she took 2 classes in high school, went this summer, and took excess hours. She'll graduate in 3 years with her undergrad, not four, and the most $$ is given out for their first two years so stack those classes. If you aren't working, you better be studying. (BTW, she's in an honors program so it can be done.) State school: $40k. So all I can see, assuming a kid gets NO merit aid, contributes NOTHING, and gets NO financial aid, is $50,000. Look, experience is great. But at the end of the day, the purpose is to get an education and get a job. Frankly, I'd rather save the $$ for grad school, where it counts the most. I love my kids. I do them NO favors by letting them think they are entitled to an education. They aren't. My kids work harder and have to because, frankly, mama and daddy can contribute food to their mouths and warm bed. We pour huge effort into their high school education in the hopes it will pay out for college. It did for DD. Right now I will travel two days a week for Mock Trial, DH will travel so DS can finish his Eagle scout. He will write a ton of essays applying for scholarships, even the $500 ones. He studies a large part of his day - between DE classes and ACT prep, it's what he needs to do to contribute. During college he will work, just like his sister does. Is it fair? Probably not. Is it good for them? I think so. Too many kids have spare time and they don't do useful things with it. Since when has leisure time been a good thing? Not so much. So, no, no one *deserves* a free education. I think it MIND BOGGINGLY amazing that such a thing exists and that it is attainable and earnable that someone from an uneducated background can achieve it, not for their children, but in one generation for themselves. There are precious few places where you can move yourself an income bracket. Either the kid wants it. Or they don't. My parents paid exactly $0 for my education and they could sure afford it. They make over $200k a year and had 3 kids. DH's parents paid $1,000 towards his and each had some college education in a skilled trade. DH went on to put himself through school as well as grad school. And I think we do our kids a disservice when we don't let them think they can do this. I NEVER thought DD would be able to work and go to school. She's doing it. She's doing BETTER this semester than last when she didn't work. She has fine tuned her spare time, she is focused, and has learned a LOT about time management. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 BTW, if you served during 2001 and are a vet or your ex-DH is, you can get in-state tuition at most, or many, state schools for your kids. You'll have more choices for schools than most people. Thank you for your service btw. We just found out about this opportunity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 You know, having sticker shock is not at all the same as saying, "Boohoo, guess we can't go to college." ... However, that doesn't mean that it's not flipping insane that you can save your entire child support for 10 years and add on $6k of pre-recession savings and still not be able to pay for college. Does that not seem crazy to you? Obviously we'll do what we have to. Obviously. And I'd be so proud to have kids make sacrifices for their own education. But can you really blame me for wanting better for my kids? There's no need for a judgmental tone on this. We are all facing it together. Sticker shock hits many every single year. I don't think anyone is judgmental. Due to having lost over 6 digits of our savings in the economic downturn, I'm another who spent hours (literally) pouring over colleges that might be affordable for my guys. The research worked. It's also not free though. We literally spend 1/3rd to 1/2 of our income annually for our share of college payments. I'm glad there's merit & need based aid to help. I know some here will feel what we spend (percentage-wise) is insane. We feel the experience is priceless and are glad we can do it without parent loans. Honestly though, I can sense that feeling of insane if I let myself think of what travel options we could have had with those payments. Therefore, I don't let myself think about that! (The bottom line is I feel their educational experience trumps our travel junkie habit.) We're thankful we can get the payments out of our annual income. Living in a low COL area and naturally living a rather frugal lifestyle (except for travel) has many benefits. But once med school is over for middle son, I'm not sure I'm going to know how to handle our budget. Come to think of it, that might be the year we can hit the South Pacific for our travels! (My dream trip.) We'll do it if we have to, obviously, but you're kind of missing the point. ... What you say is true, but my kids will not be eligible for need grants. Nor was I. Not a penny. If both your parents are working full time, and I see the FAFSA data on a daily basis, there is no need money available to you. That money was not for me while my mom was a nurse, and that money is not available to my children with two employed parents. It's for the poor. ... And what I'm realizing is that ​even with only two kids and an upper middle class salary, you still don't have a snowball's chance in hell if your child does not have 50% + significant merit aid. And there is no choice as to where you go. I'm not trying to say, "Oh no, we can't go". Not at all! I appreciate the ideas! The knowledge of the cheaper, well-endowed LACs in the midwest is something I didn't think of. And besides that, my kids each have a second language and will test for college admission in another country. The point is to say we can't save for a four-year college--I mean obviously some people get in as freshmen, who are they??? ... I'm disturbed by the entire system. This is where I vent. I paid my own school, I'll pay my kids, it will cost altogether over $200,000 including loan interest, housing and all that, and if you don't get the desperation and hopelessness in that scenario, well, I don't know what to say. It's really demoralizing. You just want it to end. I'm not asking for pity because I fully realize that most people have nothing saved and that we are incredibly lucky. My oldest--not counting steps, sadly I cannot give them cash right now though I try to manage money with their upcoming tuition payments in mind--is only in 3rd grade and we have $6k. From the outside, my partner and I, kids of single parents, we are "success stories". What I'm saying is that four-year college costs are insane, not that we can't do it. If anybody can do it, I can do it. I am so there. I do appreciate all the help but I don't appreciate people saying over and over, 'Well what about CC?" I know about CC. I work at one. That's not really what I'm talking about. What about just EMT training and conservatory and being a bus driver by day and piano teacher by night? Yes, that would be awesome. However, as a parent you want your child to have choices. We all want that. It's just sad that real choices are accessible to so few. ... My goal is not to "make do" as a victim. My goal is to make the American Dream work for me no matter what. The way I see it, my whole upbringing was raising me to be a responsible citizen and "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country". Some people get sick. Some people have spouses die. Some people simply can't do what we do. I have gifts and I am determined by the end of my life to have my kids in homes and grandkids cared for. ... To me it's not that my kids can't go to college--they can. But even if they couldn't, that wouldn't be as upsetting as the fact that I had failed at my basic purpose in life. I think some people don't get that. I was supposed to be able to do it. Knowing that I might not be able to climb up the ladder, to raise my standard of living significantly, and provide for my kids' college, that would be really unbearable for me. If they join a service academy out of duty to country, well, just the thought of it brings tears to my eyes, tears of pride and hope. But honestly, if they join because they have no other options, I'll feel like a failure. I get the other options, really, truly I do and I want them to be there. But for me, for myself, I want to give my kids choices. If they choose to work and go to CC and take that savings for a down payment on a house, god bless their little hearts, I will be so proud. But if they are working not for advancement but to stave off a life of poverty, then what the hell have I been working for?!?!? If your oldest is in 3rd grade, you definitely have time. Hopefully by then our country might have better options, but then again, I thought by now we'd have better health insurance options too, so I wouldn't hold my breath. Keep in mind that MANY of us have financial issues to deal with when selecting appropriate colleges. That's the norm to be honest - at least where I live it is. We need to find good fitting colleges both academically and financially. It can be done. You're certainly NOT a failure being lumped in with us. But I get the shock. BTDT, then got up, dusted myself off, and started researching. My first advice to parents who ask about financing college is to run their EFC on a .gov site and see what their minimum expectation is. If they can afford it, fine, look for terrific "meets needs" schools. If they pick themselves up off the floor after looking at that number, then start looking for decent merit aid schools. Both types are out there. As I said in my first post on this thread, my guys "earned" more by getting high ACT/SAT scores than they ever could have made in any job. It was worth prep for those tests. Every single one got significant merit aid at their schools. It was also worth my time researching schools. And it's worth 1/3rd to 1/2 our salary, but the guys know the trade off could be mom & dad living in their basement and/or driveway. Best wishes to you. Don't lose hope! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) This, precisely. For DD, the college experience is first and foremost an academic one: being in a community of learners who are all highly motivated and driven, and taught by professors who are experts in their fields. College experience involves for the first time encountering academic peers. College experience means a faculty mentor with whom she developed a close relationship already during her first year. It means a steady study group since the first week and late nights in the library. It means living in a house with people from different backgrounds. It means being involved in the physics women society and in the house governing body, singing in choir, editing for the school newspaper, volunteering with an organization that offers tutoring to neighborhood high school students. Parties? Minimal. A mid-afternoon birthday party with Chinese takeout for a friend a few weeks ago. A House Halloween party that lasted from 6 to 8pm. Friday nights they have the opportunity to watch a movie in the dorm, and every few months on a Saturday, they take the bus into the city and go to the Art museum and have dinner. Wild. I know there are party schools - but there are also schools where people are serious. ETA: And I am fully aware that we are fortunate to be able to afford this. We basically send my income to the school. THis was my experience, more or less. I went to school which encouraged very close knit academic community and saw the pursuit of knowledge s something important in itself. The structure of classes and activities supported that. (Though - there were some big parties from time to time.) It was much more available to kids living on or close to the campus, so I think that is an important part of the experience, and worth paying for if possible.. However - I know a lot more people who went to university where that simply didn't exist for them, and not particularly because they were busty partying. There was no sense of higher purpose for the institution, no real sense of an academic community. Not even much sense of what it would men to be educated. To me - that is vocational training, and I don't think paying so much for "the experience" makes sense. I also think it is important for people to remember that here re other kinds of communities that provide equally profound experiences, though not identical - but that goes both ways. Military service can shape people profoundly, international service or real mission work, even pursuing serious craftsmanship, or union activities. I was at a workshop the other day run by bricklayer/mason, someone who had really dedicated himself to his craft. I think that's s worthy as academia, and gives another authentic perspective or kind of grasp of reality that university students often miss. Yet for some reason I never her of parents saying they want to make sure their kids get that experience? Edited November 25, 2015 by Bluegoat 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) What you say is true, but my kids will not be eligible for need grants. Nor was I. Not a penny. If both your parents are working full time, and I see the FAFSA data on a daily basis, there is no need money available to you. Tsuga, the bolded is not true. They may not be eligible for government grants, but many private universities give very generous need based aid; even kids from families with incomes above 100k receive aid. (At some of the top schools like Princeton, attendance is free including room+board if the family income is below 65k) Some state schools in comparison have crappy financial aid. It may be much cheaper to attend a private college. I was very surprised to see that even with DD being National Merit Finalist, it would have been more expensive for her to attend an out of state public U (in a state that has very little public funding for higher ed) than her top tier private college. The FASFA does not tell the whole story. And at other schools, it is often the merit aid that gets the big tuition breaks; as pp mentioned, getting high test scores brings in way more money than a student would earn from employment during high school. Edited November 25, 2015 by regentrude 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I can't speak for your friends, but I know hubby and I want all three of ours to have a 4 year college experience. We just define it a little differently. It's going to classes both inside and outside their major, learning from great professors and/or researchers, enjoying clubs doing things they like and/or new things they haven't experienced yet, watching shows of all sorts, meeting peers from all over the planet, testing out new things/ideas, learning life lessons, etc. College for both of us was an incredible time with experiences that just aren't matched with full time jobs in everyday life. The actual education was part of it, but there was so much more it's really difficult to explain to be honest. Our boys are enjoying it as much as we did. I know that's not everyone's "thing." No one particular thing is right for everyone. But college parties, etc, isn't "the" college experience in everyone's definition even when we put a high priority on 4 years away from home. My guys have been able to do so much more at each of their schools. It's worth it to us. And I get this. I do. However, I am certain you agree with me that this is a PRIVILEGE not a RIGHT. And those are two different things. Your boys are *priveleged* that are both willing and able to help this do this. However, for the vast majority, while it can qualify as a "want" it does not, therefore, make it a "need," and I think it's important we differentiate between these things. My inability to pay for this want doesn't mean I get to stick out my lip and pout because it's out of our reach. I just think the vast majority of folks need to (and would be happier) "dealing with it." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) However - I know a lot more people who went to university where that simply didn't exist for them, and not particularly because they were busty partying. There was no sense of higher purpose for the institution, no real sense of an academic community. Not even much sense of what it would men to be educated. To me - that is vocational training, and I don't think paying so much for "the experience" makes sense. It is extraordinarily rare to find colleges/universities where the "experience" is largely academic and profound. Moreover, do realize that going to one of these schools does not necessarily equate to more $$ in career. I will try to find the link - but I was FLOORED to find out the salary of many graduates from universities I consider significantly better than a state school and focused on academia and discussion make precious little more than trade school graduates - at the rate of about $50k. I absolutely understand not everything equates to salary, but frankly, education should. Moreover, I have to ask myself what is the final purpose of education? Because, quite honestly, one can self educate and engage in socratic discussion outside of the academic realm. ETA: Found it! http://colleges.startclass.com/stories/7056/colleges-alumni-salaries-high-school-grads *I know I was surprised by some of the colleges/universities on that list. Some of them less so. Edited November 25, 2015 by BlsdMama 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Tsuga, the bolded is not true. They may not be eligible for government grants, but many private universities give very generous need based aid; even kids from families with incomes above 100k receive aid. (At some of the top schools like Princeton, attendance is free including room+board if the family income is below 65k) Some state schools in comparison have crappy financial aid. It may be much cheaper to attend a private college. I was very surprised to see that even with DD being National Merit Finalist, it would have been more expensive for her to attend an out of state public U (in a state that has very little public funding for higher ed) than her top tier private college. The FASFA does not tell the whole story. And at other schools, it is often the merit aid that gets the big tuition breaks; as pp mentioned, getting high test scores brings in way more money than a student would earn from employment during high school. Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 That number is not reality where I live and you forgot to include food and housing. Where I live, tuition in university, food, housing, medical, and fees work out to $13,141 for Canadian students, or $19,000 for international students. That's obviously in Canadian dollars. Minimum wage is $10.50 per hour. Dd has a job that pays her $15.25 per hour. She works 24 hours per week during the school year. Last summer, she waitressed all summer and saved enough to pay her rent and utilities for the year (she doesn't live on campus). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah CB Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The private high school we toured recently had a guidance counselor to every 30 graduating students. That was an attractive ratio to the parents of current students. At the school my boys are at now, they put a lot of energy into helping the graduates with university applications and scholarships. In 2014, there were 25 graduates and they were offered more than $650,000 in scholarships. I'm hopeful that my boys will be eligible for some scholarships, but we also live near the university and they could attend there and stay at home which would make it very affordable, especially considering the low tuition here. Dh worked like a maniac through undergrad. He put himself through school and paid for his living expenses as well. He worked during the school year, but he also worked two full time jobs in the summer. He graduated after 4 years with no debt and he had no help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaConquest Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) It is extraordinarily rare to find colleges/universities where the "experience" is largely academic and profound. Moreover, do realize that going to one of these schools does not necessarily equate to more $$ in career. I will try to find the link - but I was FLOORED to find out the salary of many graduates from universities I consider significantly better than a state school and focused on academia and discussion make precious little more than trade school graduates - at the rate of about $50k. I absolutely understand not everything equates to salary, but frankly, education should. Moreover, I have to ask myself what is the final purpose of education? Because, quite honestly, one can self educate and engage in socratic discussion outside of the academic realm. ETA: Found it! http://colleges.startclass.com/stories/7056/colleges-alumni-salaries-high-school-grads *I know I was surprised by some of the colleges/universities on that list. Some of them less so. I went to two of these types of schools. The reason people make less is often because they are wealthy enough not to need the money. They go into low-paying do-gooder work because they can afford it. Edited November 25, 2015 by SeaConquest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 It is extraordinarily rare to find colleges/universities where the "experience" is largely academic and profound. Moreover, do realize that going to one of these schools does not necessarily equate to more $$ in career. I will try to find the link - but I was FLOORED to find out the salary of many graduates from universities I consider significantly better than a state school and focused on academia and discussion make precious little more than trade school graduates - at the rate of about $50k. I absolutely understand not everything equates to salary, but frankly, education should. Moreover, I have to ask myself what is the final purpose of education? Because, quite honestly, one can self educate and engage in socratic discussion outside of the academic realm. ETA: Found it! http://colleges.startclass.com/stories/7056/colleges-alumni-salaries-high-school-grads *I know I was surprised by some of the colleges/universities on that list. Some of them less so. So would you say then that you would not care bout the "experience" aspect of university for your child? I would never, ever consider the purpose of those kinds of universities to be employment prospects of the student, or increasing their potential for high salary. That just isn't their social function, and I don't think it is really the primary purpose of higher education for individuals. I would say that it is not particularly easy to engage in Socratic discussion at a very high level outside of academia in many disciplines. Even if you find like minded individuals outside that community, they will most certainly be using the resources of the university indirectly - for exmple reading books and journals that were written by people supported through academic institutions. Of course many people have no interest in being really immersed in that, which is fine, they have other callings. But I consider that vocational education. I think there is link between confusing the two types of learning and the inflation of university costs, so I don't see that as an abstract distinction. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) So would you say then that you would not care bout the "experience" aspect of university for your child? Absolutely I would say it. I own it. DD is attending a university that ranks #2 in the nation for her chosen field *after* her undergrad degree, although it's a decent contender for her undergrad. She'll spend all next year working in research. It's a state university, research based, and gets more $$ for that purpose than many private schools. I absolutely own that I would rather have her engaged in research and hands on than academic discussion. And the "experience" is, in my admittedly very limited opinion, overrated. The undergrad experience is often unfocused and still trying to figure out what they are truly interested in.... Pull good grades and save the $$ for your Masters program. It is far more likely to be expensive and you will work much more closely with professors and researchers in your chosen field. There is absolutely *no* doubt that having an undergrad experience that includes gifted professors who can write recommendations could potentially lead to a better Masters program. However, for the vast majority, receiving a PhD isn't what we're discussing here nor a top school for a Masters program. For those who are academically driven, focused, and absolutely on fire, they will, most likely, be in the running for merit aid. It is the children that are not eligible for significant merit aid that we are talking about in this conversation... And if those kids can't score high ACT / SAT scores and haven't proven themselves willing and able to drive hard in high school, then, frankly, do you see a $100,000 education as an investment? One they are likely to both use and appreciate? Moreover, let's not forget that academia and work are not the only areas where you can connect with people and have fascinating discussion. What about social circles? Edited November 25, 2015 by BlsdMama 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Moreover, let's not forget that academia and work are not the only areas where you can connect with people and have fascinating discussion. What about social circles? I've been reading this conversation with interest and knowing I am "fortunate" in that my life fell apart at the right moment to qualify for need based aid and certain scholarships for single parents. I don't say that for sympathy, and ds gets need based aid as well - enough to forego the loan offered to him this year. It's just our reality. Part of my college experience is the fascinating discussions. In my social circles prior to college (remember I'm in my late 40s) NO ONE was talking about these things. There seems to be a social divide in our area between those who are in or pursue higher education and those that don't. Not that anyone not in college life is dull, boring, uneducated, and lacking in conversational skills, it's just that no one I knew wanted to or could discuss history topics at the level in which I am interested, most of it was skimming the surface conversation. At school I feel like a kid who has found their favorite toy that has been lost forever. Last week I had the opportunity to spend some one on one time with a professor just asking questions about the conference we attended. I spent over an hour just listening and felt energized when it was over. That's motivation to me. I don't plan on making a fortune, and I know my circumstance is different than what we might hope for our children, but there are traditional college aged students pursuing the same path, knowing they'll living a minimal lifestyle in the future. I tease that I'm going to pay my college loan debt (because I have those too) with my social security. But the motivation I feel to be a student? I want that for ds. He wants that, he's a different student when he's studying something that interests him. To build relationships with like minded people has value because sometime you just need to discuss something at a level only those in your field understand. That adds value to my experience as a human, it may not add to my paycheck or retirement fund, but I feel like I'm living and for many years I wasn't sure. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Moreover, let's not forget that academia and work are not the only areas where you can connect with people and have fascinating discussion. What about social circles? Of course you can. But they often aren't the same kinds of discussions, or even the same topics. When they are, it's is 95% of the time the people you are talking bout have some kind of experience with that type of discussion which goes back, one way or another, to the university. They went, or their parents did, or they have educated themselves using books written by university faculty. Even if you look at general ideas moving round in the population at large, a lot of them have percolated down from universities. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Really, you wouldn't take a punch in the face right now for $20,000? I sure as heck would. Debt free in a day, just lose one tooth. I'd take it right now. I'll even take a punch in the face for $10,000. One punch per $10k. Of course the parents wouldn't offer it! I mean the kids would ask. Imagine, if all you had to do was get kicked out and voila, half of college could be paid for in Pell grants. My point is just to say, desperation is high and you normally would not get anywhere even if you were kicked out. ETA: The reason I believe this is because I myself was in a situation of not having college paid for and when I learned to my shock I would not be independent until I was 26 (eternity!) I went to ask how to become independence. That was when they explained it to me. And I know she saw the look on my face when she said... "And there has to be a pattern of abuse and abandonment stretching back over a period of time." Eyebrows raised, LOL! No, I was not the only person thinking, "80 hour weeks for a month or a punch in the face... HM." As a parent, of a child who took many punches from her biological parents, I find this whole discussion disturbing. I suppose the most optimistic and diplomatic spin I can place on your words is that as you were fortunate to have never experienced abuse you just do not have any understanding of the sad situation some children grow up in. I seriously doubt that our daughter would still be alive if she was still living with her abusive biological parents so I imagine the paying for college discussion would be a moot point. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Believe me, I get it. I was being flippant with my observations. Also, the parents who worry this much about paying for college are not the same parents that would actually punch their kids, though it almost makes sense in theory. I'm in this mess now. DH and I were in the military and went through college as newlyweds. It was tight, but we did it and our small loans were doable. Now our daughter, who was born at our university, is a freshman in college. She'd love to go away to college, but there's a limit to what we're willing to pay for 'the experience.' We 'thought' we did things right. We invested when they were babies, but the investments didn't do much. Our backup plan was for DH to return to academia, but perks for employees children just aren't there anymore. Our backup to our back-up was for me to return to full-time work, but we didn't anticipate having a disabled child who would require my full-time care. Our backup to our backup to our backup was to use our family savings, but those were seriously hit when DH experienced an unusually long spell of unemployment where job options were limited because nobody was willing to 'underemploy' him. We live in a HCOL area are are lucky we didn't lose our house. It IS frustrating, but we can just pay out-of-pocket for CC and the associates will transfer to in state 4 year schools. This plan will cut any college debt she/we incur in half and her degree will still come from the target University. Paying triple for a freshman psyche class is just NOT worth the money to us. 'The experience' is less valuable to us than our long-term financial health. She lives within commuting distance of a couple 4 year choices. For others, she'll have to live away from home. She'll go. She just didn't get to go with that first wave that left right after high school. It's not easy to see so many friends move to college as freshmen when that's the expected path. I get it emotionally, but that's not a financial or educational reason to take on twice as much college debt as necessary. It''s just too much money to be thinking with your heart. I have this theory that 'the experience' is something you have when you move away from home and launch into the world. It's FUN when life is all about you and your classes and your friends. By the time I got to college, I'd already HAD that experience in the military, so for DH and me, living at a 4-year-school wasn't nearly as life-changing as our military experience. Our daughter isn't really the military type (and we do not want that for her). Her high school experience contained more diversity than my college days. There's nothing wrong with our CC and she's not going into a field that's so high-paying that college debt will be a non-issue. Four years from now she'll have her B.A. and that's the whole point. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Absolutely I would say it. I own it. DD is attending a university that ranks #2 in the nation for her chosen field *after* her undergrad degree, although it's a decent contender for her undergrad. She'll spend all next year working in research. It's a state university, research based, and gets more $$ for that purpose than many private schools. I absolutely own that I would rather have her engaged in research and hands on than academic discussion. I do not think one can separate "research" from "academic discussion". I am a physics professor. Research does not exist in a vacuum; it is done within a community of other researchers, and there is constant exchange of ideas and discussion of results, theories, conclusions. Any researcher is actively involved in academic discussion - through the reading of the publications of the researchers that came before, through discussing results and ideas with colleagues all over the world, through publishing results and presenting at conferences. So, your DD is part of this academic discussion, which, in her field, involves hands on work in a research lab. You may consider other research not to be "hands-on" - DH and I are theoretical physicists, and much of research is calculations and computer simulations, but it is as active and "real" as doing experiments. Moreover, let's not forget that academia and work are not the only areas where you can connect with people and have fascinating discussion. What about social circles? I can discuss physics in my social circle because most of my friends are physics professors. I have not met anybody who does physics as a hobby and who has the same level of insight. I can discuss books and literature in my social circle, but the best discussions are with my friends who happen to be literature or history professors; the depth of the conversation is way different than a discussion among laypeople. I am part of a book club where I am the only non-humanities-faculty person, and those discussions are much deeper than the ones i experience in groups of interested amateurs. So yes, interesting discussions happen outside of academia, but the level of insight and analysis will be different with people who research those topics for a living. 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 DD is attending a university that ranks #2 in the nation for her chosen field *after* her undergrad degree, although it's a decent contender for her undergrad. She'll spend all next year working in research. It's a state university, research based, and gets more $$ for that purpose than many private schools. I absolutely own that I would rather have her engaged in research and hands on than academic discussion. It's not really an either/or situation. It's both. And state vs private school doesn't really matter as either can be good - or not. It's the individual school that matters. My youngest would fit the "more average SAT/ACT" stat and the lack of work ethic in high school, esp for classes he didn't like. His college experience has been great for him - he's matured a ton, been exposed to far more peers and adults with a variety of academic and world knowledge, and now "sees" the world Elegantlion speaks of. He loves it. In our house he was exposed to it, but as far as he knew, that was mainly our life. Now he knows there's a whole culture out there loving learning and he's on fire with it. We're pleased with what we're getting for our money. His school isn't even Top 100 in most polls (except for Marine/Environmental Science), but it's been a terrific spot for him. No. Not all kids will embrace this culture. Perhaps my kids were bred for it and are genetically predisposed to love it. I'm not sure. They were certainly raised for it. IF they had truly wanted a different way of life, we'd have adjusted, but having been exposed to it, they love it as much as hubby and I did. The vast majority of the top 20 - 30% of kids at the high school where I work go off to college and thrive, most returning feeling they finally met "their people." I can relate. I'm also for finding the right path for each individual, so it's ok if college isn't for someone - even someone who can ace the entrance tests. There are times I recommend cc for students if they aren't sure or merely want a two year program offered there. There are times I recommend the military or other parts of the workforce. But with this being a college thread, yes, I'll promote the pros of college as more than just education here. And for those who feel it is for them, I'll share whatever knowledge I have to try to find affordable options. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't understand the distinction between academic discussion and research. Aren't they part of the same thing? I'm confused. Also, I cannot imagine discussing materials science at the academic level with random people at the soccer field. Well, actually, it turns out that the nephew of my of my friends from grad school is on my son's team, so every once in a while I get to chat about it at soccer. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't understand the distinction between academic discussion and research. Aren't they part of the same thing? I'm confused. Also, I cannot imagine discussing materials science at the academic level with random people at the soccer field. Well, actually, it turns out that the nephew of my of my friends from grad school is on my son's team, so every once in a while I get to chat about it at soccer. There's a reason I prefer sitting with the science teachers at school for lunch. There are few folks I don't get along with socially at lunch or whatever, but our conversations at the science table are at a deeper level (science-wise) even when we talk about everyday things. Hubby misses a higher education social circle. When he's out in the field he's usually the only one there with a higher education. He gets along with them fine, but there's a totally different level of conversation when it comes to anything academic. (He works from home, so doesn't have an "office" of peers like I do at school.) 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Believe me, I get it. I was being flippant with my observations. Also, the parents who worry this much about paying for college are not the same parents that would actually punch their kids, though it almost makes sense in theory. I'm in this mess now. DH and I were in the military and went through college as newlyweds. It was tight, but we did it and our small loans were doable. Now our daughter, who was born at our university, is a freshman in college. She'd love to go away to college, but there's a limit to what we're willing to pay for 'the experience.' We 'thought' we did things right. We invested when they were babies, but the investments didn't do much. Our backup plan was for DH to return to academia, but perks for employees children just aren't there anymore. Our backup to our back-up was for me to return to full-time work, but we didn't anticipate having a disabled child who would require my full-time care. Our backup to our backup to our backup was to use our family savings, but those were seriously hit when DH experienced an unusually long spell of unemployment where job options were limited because nobody was willing to 'underemploy' him. We live in a HCOL area are are lucky we didn't lose our house. It IS frustrating, but we can just pay out-of-pocket for CC and the associates will transfer to in state 4 year schools. This plan will cut any college debt she/we incur in half and her degree will still come from the target University. Paying triple for a freshman psyche class is just NOT worth the money to us. 'The experience' is less valuable to us than our long-term financial health. She lives within commuting distance of a couple 4 year choices. For others, she'll have to live away from home. She'll go. She just didn't get to go with that first wave that left right after high school. It's not easy to see so many friends move to college as freshmen when that's the expected path. I get it emotionally, but that's not a financial or educational reason to take on twice as much college debt as necessary. It''s just too much money to be thinking with your heart. I have this theory that 'the experience' is something you have when you move away from home and launch into the world. It's FUN when life is all about you and your classes and your friends. By the time I got to college, I'd already HAD that experience in the military, so for DH and me, living at a 4-year-school wasn't nearly as life-changing as our military experience. Our daughter isn't really the military type (and we do not want that for her). Her high school experience contained more diversity than my college days. There's nothing wrong with our CC and she's not going into a field that's so high-paying that college debt will be a non-issue. Four years from now she'll have her B.A. and that's the whole point. I agree that being on your own is big part of the experience. I think a commonality between military and university though is there is ready-made community, and that is also factor. FWIW, the president of my university thought that students who did other things between high school and university were generally better off. He'd been a lobster fisherman for a while. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I absolutely understand not everything equates to salary, but frankly, education should. Moreover, I have to ask myself what is the final purpose of education? Because, quite honestly, one can self educate and engage in socratic discussion outside of the academic realm. My son has very good scores and could probably go the local U for free, or close to it (for that matter, even if he paid full in-state tuition, at $9K, it's cheaper than room and board at any of the colleges he's applying to). We have encouraged him, and he's willing, to go to a Catholic LAC, even though he will have loans, minimally, of $40K (room and board for 4 years), probably more. We feel that the experience of living with a group of great Catholics (we live in the bible belt, hardly any Catholics at all) is worth it. To meet Catholic friends that he will be friends with for life, people that can help each other through life (networking), maybe a future spouse, or the person who will eventually introduce him to a future spouse. His first choice college actually keeps track of alumni marriages (400+, so far). Many of the graduates settle near the college and they are slowly forming a community, and many homeschool their kids, and many others have put their kids into the local parish school together and are having a strong influence there. We feel these things are important, and that this kind of education and life experience is far above the vocational training that he might get at the local U. Yes, one can do some self education outside of college, but that's gets hard when you're living the rest of your life. And it isn't easy to find other people, outside of college, who want to do it with you. And there is no way to replicate living in and sharing that kind of community. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I don't understand the distinction between academic discussion and research. Aren't they part of the same thing? I'm confused. I am looking at it as R&D in an academia setting vs in the private profit making world. Hubby did his phd project in a govt lab and penny pinching is the norm. When he started work in the private sector, the R&D budget while relatively small compared to company budget is still very large. There is also short term and long term research factor. Hubby and I are more hands on than theoretical, more short term than long term. It is nicer for us to see research turn into marketable products. We would wilt in academia. Hubby was offered a well paying job as a lecturer but would rather stay in the private sector. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Absolutely I would say it. I own it. DD is attending a university that ranks #2 in the nation for her chosen field *after* her undergrad degree, although it's a decent contender for her undergrad. She'll spend all next year working in research. It's a state university, research based, and gets more $$ for that purpose than many private schools. I absolutely own that I would rather have her engaged in research and hands on than academic discussion. And the "experience" is, in my admittedly very limited opinion, overrated. The undergrad experience is often unfocused and still trying to figure out what they are truly interested in.... Pull good grades and save the $$ for your Masters program. It is far more likely to be expensive and you will work much more closely with professors and researchers in your chosen field. There is absolutely *no* doubt that having an undergrad experience that includes gifted professors who can write recommendations could potentially lead to a better Masters program. However, for the vast majority, receiving a PhD isn't what we're discussing here nor a top school for a Masters program. For those who are academically driven, focused, and absolutely on fire, they will, most likely, be in the running for merit aid. It is the children that are not eligible for significant merit aid that we are talking about in this conversation... And if those kids can't score high ACT / SAT scores and haven't proven themselves willing and able to drive hard in high school, then, frankly, do you see a $100,000 education as an investment? One they are likely to both use and appreciate? Moreover, let's not forget that academia and work are not the only areas where you can connect with people and have fascinating discussion. What about social circles? I totally get what you are saying. This is why I wish we had institutions, or maybe just programs, that are separate from the universities where people who wanted "vocational" training could go. They could skip all the irrelevent courses and just get what they need and start earning. Call it something else than a bachelor's, but something that would be respected and worthy in their chosen field. Having so many getting vocational training through the U system is one of the big drivers of cost, for everyone, IMO. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I often have the feeling when reading college discussions that those of us who had a positive college experience want to replicate this for our kids. By "college experience" I mean a mind opening, challenging and possibly demanding intellectual experience. That experience takes place not only in the classroom or lab but in the snack bar or in an apartment with fellow students. Some of my former students lost out on the experience by returning home every weekend thus missing some of the cultural events that came to campus (often subsidized for students) or by leaving campus immediately after class in order to work a full time job. I felt badly for them. My son was a first year college student in 2010. One of his friends chose to commute to the regional uni as his Dad had just been laid off from his job. This young man was in the honors program. Part of the deal was that the honors students served as ambassadors at evening events--lectures, dinners for visiting scholars, etc. His long commute affected his ability to participate in these programs so decided to get an apartment near campus for his sophomore year. A good thing! One of those visitors was a man who has profoundly affected his life, a connection that has led to a gem of an internship with the Fed where he is one of few non-Ivy grads. This to me is a fine example of what the college experience should be. I know that not all students jump into college with both feet. They go to class and then leave campus, returning perhaps on the weekend for a football game. The regional uni near us has wonderful music programs which have a small smattering of students in the audience. I cannot figure this out. Why aren't students taking advantage of the opportunities offered? I sure did! 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I totally get what you are saying. This is why I wish we had institutions, or maybe just programs, that are separate from the universities where people who wanted "vocational" training could go. They could skip all the irrelevent courses and just get what they need and start earning. Call it something else than a bachelor's, but something that would be respected and worthy in their chosen field. Having so many getting vocational training through the U system is one of the big drivers of cost, for everyone, IMO. I thought such things did exist in the US? Here in Cnd we have technical schools - sometimes we call them community colleges. They give things like training to be a lb tech, secretary, cook, welder, journalism, cartooning, etc. There are some issues - for exmple trades training arguably is not being dealt with well under this system. But it's the right idea IMO. What I think causes confusion though in the larger system is that many things that should be offered at technical schools are found in universities, or employers re not really properly employing people who come either from university or technical programs - so people spend more t university when they could s well go to technical school. The fact that universities aren't always giving higher-order education doesn't help people understand. In part I think this is because many don't really understand the distinction that should be there in the training. a technician is typically being trained in doing the processes well, whereas university degree should teach about the nurture of the processes and their larger meaning, how they fit into knowledge more generally. a researcher should be able to find things, for exmple, and that will involve knowledge of resources and of historical facts and research.. a historian needs to be able to think about the nature of history, about how we know things - a self-conscious relation to his process. (though technically trained often acquire that over time if they are interested.) It's a bit like the distinction that was supposed to exist between officers and ranks in the military. The reason officers at one time often had university level humanities education was because wider knowledge of history, ethics, and such, was considered important in lending military operations, even though it wasn't always necessary to directly accomplish a task. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I often have the feeling when reading college discussions that those of us who had a positive college experience want to replicate this for our kids. By "college experience" I mean a mind opening, challenging and possibly demanding intellectual experience. That experience takes place not only in the classroom or lab but in the snack bar or in an apartment with fellow students. Some of my former students lost out on the experience by returning home every weekend thus missing some of the cultural events that came to campus (often subsidized for students) or by leaving campus immediately after class in order to work a full time job. I felt badly for them. My son was a first year college student in 2010. One of his friends chose to commute to the regional uni as his Dad had just been laid off from his job. This young man was in the honors program. Part of the deal was that the honors students served as ambassadors at evening events--lectures, dinners for visiting scholars, etc. His long commute affected his ability to participate in these programs so decided to get an apartment near campus for his sophomore year. A good thing! One of those visitors was a man who has profoundly affected his life, a connection that has led to a gem of an internship with the Fed where he is one of few non-Ivy grads. I agree that it is more difficult for students who commute. It is not only the extra enrichment opportunities, but participating in help sessions and learning centers. I have spoken to many commuting students who told me that it takes a lot of discipline to stay late after classes instead of driving home. One former student who had failed the course twice eventually rented a place in town to stay over a few nights a week, and it helped him succeed. Some of these things you can, of course replicate even living at home. DH and I both lived at home during college, but that was in the same town as the university. We had a study group with other "townies" and got together almost every afternoon after classes and work late at one of our homes. But a longer commute to a town where no fellow students live would have made this impossible. The regional uni near us has wonderful music programs which have a small smattering of students in the audience. I cannot figure this out. Why aren't students taking advantage of the opportunities offered? I sure did! This is something that always baffles me as well. We have a performing arts series at the campus theater, with eight different shows throughout the academic year. The first 50 students get free tickets, but students rarely take advantage of this. Our school has a dorm requirement for the first two years, so most of the students are actually living on campus, and even the ones who live off campus are no more than five minutes away. I can't figure this out. Edited November 25, 2015 by regentrude 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Also whenever having these conversations I do feel like... nobody talks about their own college journey. How did you guys pay for college? Am I on some generational cusp where we were the first ones to take out loans even while working 30 hours a week during school and 80 over summers? I remember all this stuff happening to ME. I'll never forget literally drooling looking at the vegetarian chili... my professor bought it for me! I was so hungry. So I remember well, studying, the walks to the computer lab. I feel like others talk about their kids' experiences but I remember my own. Nothing seems to have changed much since then. People who get scholarships say "you should try scholarships" but I don't remember that working for many people except the Catholics. I mean some people get lucky but as a strategy it doesn't seem wise. I fell into perfect circumstances with no great effort. My single mom didn't make much money, but we were adequately housed, fed, and clothed, not destitute. I was in the top third or quarter of my class, but my GPA wasn't terrific. I had good SAT scores, but not NMF. I had a decent activities history, but only one long-term commitment (Girl Scouts). I chose an inexpensive private school because it was small and pretty. My bill for one year (with room and board, without a campus job) was about $5k in 1995. Not unreasonable AT ALL. Of course, I blew it. Stupid, stupid adolescent brain. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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