Christian Content: What would you say to 15yo dd about this school project?

[Rosie_0801]

However, I don't think one can build an altar without spiritual significance, because that is, by its very nature what an altar is for. ETA:  that is to say, by its definition, an altar is not just a little shelf with a picture on it or special belongings.  An altar has a purpose that is specifically spiritual or religious.

 

Then what difference does an altar make? You can't get through life without stuff of spiritual significance happening. Even an anti-theist feels an uplifting of spirit when the weather cheers up after a few months of cold and drizzle.

[albeto.]

Then what difference does an altar make? You can't get through life without stuff of spiritual significance happening. Even an anti-theist feels an uplifting of spirit when the weather cheers up after a few months of cold and drizzle.

 

Chemicals. Not spirits.

 

;-)

[MomatHWTK]

Leviticus warns against contacting spirits, thus for a Christian it is not a matter of knowing the consequences but understanding that God has warned against the activity.  When I did a search looking for the scriptural reference I found quite a bit of information on the topic; so I'm confident that anyone who is genuinely curious about what the Bible has to say could probably do the same.  

[Butter]

Leviticus warns against contacting spirits, thus for a Christian it is not a matter of knowing the consequences but understanding that God has warned against the activity.  When I did a search looking for the scriptural reference I found quite a bit of information on the topic; so I'm confident that anyone who is genuinely curious about what the Bible has to say could probably do the same.  

 

Contacting spirits is very much not what this project is doing, though.  They are learning about a significant cultural holiday among many Spanish-speaking people.  They are making a craft item that might be made by those in that culture.  Yes, the holiday includes praying for and remembering relatives who have passed away.  It doesn't actually include contacting spirits.  They are not talking to them.  They are not trying to get them to do things for them.  They are remembering and loving them.  If you believe that our ancestors are not very far away (and MANY Christians do!), thinking they are listening to you as you remember them doesn't seem strange at all.  But this particular school assignment?  It's making a craft.

[Rosie_0801]

Chemicals. Not spirits.

 

;-)

 

You seriously say "Yay! Decent weather! What joyous event for my biochemistry?"

 

:lol:

[Pam in CT]

FWIW, I agree that "offering" is a better translation for "ofrenda" than "altar."

 

 

[mommaduck]

You seriously say "Yay! Decent weather! What joyous event for my biochemistry?"

 

:lol:

It's albeto; she just might :P ;)

[DawnM]

There is a WHOLE LOT of misinformation out there in the American Christian community concerning Dia de los Muertos.  It is akin to our Memorial Day in which we remember those we have lost, and really nothing more.  It's not really an alter, but more like a memorial.  So I don't think I would say anything, but if it calms your soul, just give your dd a gentle reminder then let it go.

 

ETA:  I'm a white evangelical Christian who lives in a highly Latino/Hispanic/Chicano area (San Antonio, Texas) where Dia de los Muertos is widely celebrated every year.

 

Yes, that is how I was always taught it was viewed as well.  

 

I think the word altar is the issue.  If they said, "Memorial table" or something it would not be such an issue.

[DawnM]

Chemicals. Not spirits.

 

;-)

 

Are zombies chemicals?

[EmseB]

Once upon a time, spiritual significance was, by its very nature, what embalming was for. It certainly was for the ancient Egyptians, the inspiration for many mummification projects for school kids. If xians can reproduce that act without fearing any spiritual component because they're focusing on science, why not with regard to social studies? If there really are spiritual doors that can be opened, are they blocked when one is completely ignorant of the ancient religious meaning assigned to a ritual? If not, then why is there no fear, no warning?

I think this is going to vary wildly from person to person. I think in the OP's case it might be a good time to explore what Paul talked about in Galatians with regard to conscience and observing certain dietary customs, etc.

 

For me, observing mummification in a chicken, without all the trappings of burial and associated rites and ceremonies is purely scientific rather than spiritual. "Here's how to preserve flesh that would otherwise rot" and "the Egyptians did this for a number of reasons, we still do a version of it today for various reasons (including sanitary ones" and "our family doesn't do the rituals the Egyptians did because we believe x or don't believe y".

 

However, I believe the word altar, with regards to dead people, is defined as specially having to do with offerings and other spiritual things I personally don't believe in. I think different Christians would have different personal levels of conscience about completing the project. Just like some Christians have no problem going trick-or-treating and some feel it's an inappropriate celebration. I don't fear spiritual doors at all, FWIW. I don't think an altar to the dead is capable of any such thing. Just like I don't think building a shrine to anyone does anything, but that's also why I wouldn't build an altar to anyone.

[Rosie_0801]

However, I believe the word altar, Werth rewards to dead people, is defined as specially having to do with offerings and other spiritual things I personally don't believe in. I think different Christians would have different personal levels of conscience about completing the project. Just like some Christians have no problem going trick-or-treating and some feel it's an inappropriate celebration. I don't fear spiritual doors at all, FWIW. I don't think an altar to the dead is capable of any such thing. Just like I don't think building a shrine to anyone does anything, but that's also why I wouldn't build an altar to anyone.

 

An altar isn't necessarily TO anyone.

 

Mine has a few rocks, a few candles, a photo and a pine cone.

[Anne in CA]

Then what difference does an altar make? You can't get through life without stuff of spiritual significance happening. Even an anti-theist feels an uplifting of spirit when the weather cheers up after a few months of cold and drizzle.

OK, Rosie, I was determined not to use up any likes on this thread, but you caught me out. I had to laugh when I read this.

[catz]

Well, when we're translating terminology and usage from another language and another culture, you are bound to run into trouble.  Just because you see the use the word altar, doesn't mean that there's an summoning of spirits or worshiping of "false gods" or that the usage is exactly how a native English speaker would use the word.  My parents used to live in south Texas where this was common.  In the minds of the locals, it really is just a memorial day for them much like leaving flowers or a teddy bear at a grave or lighting a candle in memory of someone.  Most of those celebrating are Christian. 

[EmseB]

An altar isn't necessarily TO anyone.

 

Mine has a few rocks, a few candles, a photo and a pine cone.

I can't find a non-spiritual definition of the word altar. I could have a shelf with a pine cone, candles, and a photo on it and I would consider all of it decoration. If I called it an altar, I would necessarily be applying the definition of what an altar is to those particular objects.

[Rosie_0801]

I can't find a non-spiritual definition of the word altar. I could have a shelf with a pine cone, candles, and a photo on it and I would consider all of it decoration. If I called it an altar, I would necessarily be applying the definition of what an altar is to those particular objects.

I didn't say it wasn't spiritual.

 

I said an altar isn't necessarily TO anyone.

 

If your definition of an altar includes a necessity for it to be TO someone/something, your definition doesn't fit the reality of people's practice as well as it could. Not that you have to care or amend your understanding if you don't want to. *shrug*

[umsami]

Sounds like a lot of good discussion already. (I learned a lot! :))

 

I'll add that we rented the animated film "The Book of Life" and my kids really loved it. (Many awards nominated film made by Jorge Gutierrez, a Mexican animator, and based on "The Day of the Dead.")

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2014/10/14/356045103/animated-book-of-life-celebrates-d-a-de-los-muertos

[dancingmama]

I can't find a non-spiritual definition of the word altar. I could have a shelf with a pine cone, candles, and a photo on it and I would consider all of it decoration. If I called it an altar, I would necessarily be applying the definition of what an altar is to those particular objects.

That's because you are defining the word in English. In Spanish, the word altar means altar. But it also means shrine, pedestal, or SHELF.

 

Now, my culture does celebrate Dia de Los Muertos. I can assure you my culture is very Christian and/or Catholic. There is no worshipping of the dead. Heck, sometimes those dead are "bad" people. You are praying to God. The Christian or Catholic God. You are remembering your dead.

 

However, none of this really applies to this art project. :). It's just a project, just like mummifying the dead or putting up a Xmas tree or burning a Yule log.

[EmseB]

Then what difference does an altar make? You can't get through life without stuff of spiritual significance happening. Even an anti-theist feels an uplifting of spirit when the weather cheers up after a few months of cold and drizzle.

 

Sorry, I missed this.  It may make no difference to some and for others they may feel like it's violating their conscience to build an altar memorializing a dead person in any way, shape, or form.  Here's something I found:

 

Today, Day of the Dead is celebrated in Mexico and in certain parts of the United States and Central America, and those celebrations differ depending on where you are.

In rural Mexico, people visit the cemetery where their loved ones are buried. They decorate gravesites with marigold flowers and candles. They bring toys for dead children and bottles of tequila to adults. They sit on picnic blankets next to gravesites and eat the favorite food of their loved ones.

In Guadalupe, the ritual is celebrated much like it is in rural Mexico. People spend the day in the cemetery decorating graves.

In the United States and in Mexico's larger cities, families build altars in their homes, dedicating them to the dead. They surround these altars with flowers, food and pictures of the deceased. They light candles and place them next to the altar.

 

 

If I'm being asked to make an altar for Dia de los Muertos, and this is what it is for (assuming they are studying the history of the holiday and what the altars originally meant and were supposed to be for), I would not be comfortable doing it.  I would not build an altar to be dedicated to the dead as is tradition for the holiday.  I wouldn't build an altar to anyone or anything, to be honest.  I realize apparently this upsets people that I wouldn't want to do this, I was just explaining why someone wouldn't want to but would not have a problem with the physical process of embalming something.  Again, I cannot find a definition of the word altar that doesn't have religious context or meaning as it pertains to sacrifice or offerings.  Even the historical stuff I read about DdlM seems to indicate they put up favorite foods, etc, as some sort of shrine or tribute to a spirit of a person.  I don't believe I should do that. Why anyone cares why I think I shouldn't do that is a mystery to me.

 

FWIW, if this is being studied in school and I were the student, I'd ask if I could write a paper about the history of the holiday and what it means showing I understood and comprehended the learning objectives, rather than building an actual altar for a spiritual tradition I don't believe in.  I would not try to get out of knowing the information.  I just wouldn't build an altar in the tradition of Dia de los Muertos.  I did not realize when I posted that it would be so revolutionary to not want to do something like that.

[EmseB]

That's because you are defining the word in English. In Spanish, the word altar means altar. But it also means shrine, pedestal, or SHELF.

 

Now, my culture does celebrate Dia de Los Muertos. I can assure you my culture is very Christian and/or Catholic. There is no worshipping of the dead. Heck, sometimes those dead are "bad" people. You are praying to God. The Christian or Catholic God. You are remembering your dead.

 

However, none of this really applies to this art project. :). It's just a project, just like mummifying the dead or putting up a Xmas tree or burning a Yule log.

 

I am not trying to convince anyone not to celebrate this holiday or not to build an altar.  Just like I wouldn't tell anyone they shouldn't have a Christmas tree, burn a yule log, or do whatever rites they want to for their dead.  That is not, nor was it ever, my point.  I'm explaining why I, personally, due to my own convictions would not do it.  I can also see why some people, who share my faith traditions would be okay with doing it as an art project.  That's great for them, too!  I realize I'm in the minority of people that would care about building an altar for DdlM.  I'm totally okay with that even if everyone wants me to see how wrong I am, lol.  Some people don't burn yule logs or put up Christmas trees, either.  I don't see why it would be so important to convince them that a Christmas tree is just a meaningless bit of fun and it doesn't matter what they believe about it, they should just have one anyway.  It wouldn't occur to me to try and convince someone to do something like that if they don't want to, or convince them that Christmas trees aren't a problem because we're not worshipping the tree, don't you know?

 

FWIW, Rosie, I can't find any site that talks about altars for DdlM that aren't dedicated to people.  I have looked.

[Rosie_0801]

So you don't have pictures of deceased relatives on your wall? It's the same idea.

 

I know that's uncool in many Indigenous Australian traditions.

 

 

 

FWIW, Rosie, I can't find any site that talks about altars for DdlM that aren't dedicated to people.  I have looked.

Of course you can't. This is the point of the holyday. I was talking about altars because you seemed to be insisting they must all be to worship something or someone and that's isn't altogether correct.

 

 

For the record, I wouldn't make an altar for Dia de los Muertos either if I could avoid it.

[Butter]

Did you notice that one of the meanings of altar in Spanish is shelf?  That's very non-religious.  That's a problem with applying English definitions to foreign words.  They don't always mean the same thing or the foreign word means many things.

[chiguirre]

Sorry, I missed this.  It may make no difference to some and for others they may feel like it's violating their conscience to build an altar memorializing a dead person in any way, shape, or form.  Here's something I found:

 

 

If I'm being asked to make an altar for Dia de los Muertos, and this is what it is for (assuming they are studying the history of the holiday and what the altars originally meant and were supposed to be for), I would not be comfortable doing it.

JodiSue, could you link to the quote you cited above? IMHO, using the English word altar in place of the Spanish word ofrenda is very problematic. They are not the same thing. The word altar exists in Spanish and is not interchangeable with ofrenda. You seem to be basing your objection on sloppy translation rather than the actual cultural practices of many Mexicans and Central Americans.

[SporkUK]

I think part of the problem is that it isn't really one holiday (and much of the stuff on its roots on the Internet is not in English or even Spanish). As it was a major festival that was celebrated throughout the massive Aztec empire and then changed considerable by force with colonization and various other waves of influence, how it is celebrated now in Puebla will be different to how it is celebrated Mexico City, to how it is celebrated by the Latinx and Mestizx diasporas. And this is before we get the wide variety of beliefs within religions and between religions involved. Much like the celebration of any other large holiday, pinning it down to say something means one thing or another is...close to impossible. 

 

Some will involve dedicating displays to people and feeling that the spirits of ancestors come through. This is true of festivals for the dead all around the world. However, within those same festivals, there will be people -- like my family -- where we put a full table display  (as we also do for birthdays and other important occasions - no altar/shelf but our table) and it will have a photo of my grandmother, my partner's grandfather and my partner's brother and it will have bowls of treats and marigolds and other traditional things, but it isn't for or dedicated to them as for and dedicated to us, the living. It will be time to reminded and blessed by stories of those we have lost, work through the complicated feelings of their and my own mortality and openly discuss it with my family while working towards the goal of acceptance and even joy in remembering them and my own death that is in my future and how I would want people to remember me. 

 

I've never really thought of my lost loved ones coming back other than in passing conversation with my very Catholic mother when I was much younger as she often had dreams with them which I've never had. Paraphrasing from her, if somehow she (my grandmother) could see us and come back, I would want her to see that she is fondly remembered and that we still care for her, but it is most important for me to remember her and all that she gave and continues to give me so I can learn to accept that she is not here and one day neither will I -- and I will want someone to remember me fondly and still care for me. 

 

I'd never recommend someone make an altar/table -- it's so personal it seems like something either one does or doesn't do and I would leave that up my 15 year old in the OP's situation (comparing the various ways it is celebrated would be a good alternative project I think). Personally, I have far more issue with how much people outside the communities involved try to monetize it or even worse sexualize it -- even in the UK many skeleton related items, including "sexy" ones, that have Day of the Dead attached which just makes me facepalm because as I said, this is something very personal and to see it treated like that just creeps me out. An art project by someone who really cares and connects to it is one thing but much of what is about these days in the public eye has little to do with what even the non-religious connect to it see it as being about. 

[albeto.]

It's albeto; she just might :p ;)

 

It sounds more bad-ass when I say it, though.

 

^_^

[lauraw4321]

I wasn't going to reply, but I've had a beer, so I'm going to.   :lol:

 

My opinion only (as if I could write anything else) is that Christians must be very careful to not moralize our culture.  In our culture we remember our dead by decorating their graves.  Maybe we cook their favorite meal when we've been thinking about them.  Maybe we post on Facebook on the anniversary of their death.  We pray to God thanking him for that person and how they influenced us.  This is how we remember our dead in our culture.

 

In the Mexican (possibly the rest of Latin America, but I'm only familiar with Mexican) culture, the dead are remembered by setting up altars, or shelves, with the dead family member's picture, cooking their favorite foods, and putting flowers on the altar.  

 

The only *Christian* objection that I can think of is the practice of praying for the souls of the dead.  For some protestants, that may cause  a problem for legitimate theological reasons.  However, it does not sound like your daughter is being asked to pray for the soul of a dead person.

 

Don't moralize culture unless you're on really really firm theological grounds.  Let your daughter do the project.

[Plink]

I'd handle it the same way I handle reading Greek Mythology or building a replica Aztec pyramid. Explain its cultural significance and move on.

[albeto.]

Are zombies chemicals?

 

They're comprised of chemicals. 

 

Certainly not of light. Or quarks. Or brainwaves.

 

[Guest]

I am probably muddying the water, but in the Christian tradition, I'm not really sure that an altar is a place for putting something to worship. I think it is more a place for offering a gift or a sacrifice.

 

IIRC, I was told in my Protestant years not to call the table at the front an altar, because that denomination did not believe in the Eucaristic Sacrifice/Offering. We were supposed to call it The Lord's Table or the Communion Table. Orthodox and Roman Catholics do call it an altar because of the Eucharistic Offering.

 

However, it is possible that other religions do use an altar as a place to put things that are worshipped--I claim ignorance here.

 

Maybe that would be something of interest to learn about ... what it means in different religions to have an altar.

I'd object to this project.  Maybe not out loud or to the teacher.

 

But not for any religious reasons.  What's the pedagogical purpose of making a diarama?  This is high school Spanish, not grammar school.  Serious students should be memorizing vocab, practicing pronunciation, and learning grammar rules and how to apply them.  Perhaps one might think that learning about Latin American culture is an important part of Spanish class, and perhaps it is.  But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

[Guest]

I'd object to this project. Maybe not out loud or to the teacher.

 

But not for any religious reasons. What's the pedagogical purpose of making a diarama? This is high school Spanish, not grammar school. Serious students should be memorizing vocab, practicing pronunciation, and learning grammar rules and how to apply them. Perhaps one might think that learning about Latin American culture is an important part of Spanish class, and perhaps it is. But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

Agreed!!

[Slache]

I'd object to this project. Maybe not out loud or to the teacher.

 

But not for any religious reasons. What's the pedagogical purpose of making a diarama? This is high school Spanish, not grammar school. Serious students should be memorizing vocab, practicing pronunciation, and learning grammar rules and how to apply them. Perhaps one might think that learning about Latin American culture is an important part of Spanish class, and perhaps it is. But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

I disagree. I think the plays, cooking, arts and games taught me a lot about Spanish and Japanese culture in high school.

[EmseB]

Did you notice that one of the meanings of altar in Spanish is shelf?  That's very non-religious.  That's a problem with applying English definitions to foreign words.  They don't always mean the same thing or the foreign word means many things.

 

Actually, I didn't notice that, and I looked the word up in a Spanish dictionary (not Spanish to English, but a Spanish monolingual dictionary).  I did look up shelf as well (English to Spanish), and found a couple of translations, altar not being one of them.  I'm sure that since I don't have very many Spanish resources on hand that I'm probably just missing it.

 

Either way, I'm not sure it's germane, because I don't think the assignment from the OP was to build a shelf.

 

Just as well, I think the thread passed me by while I was out running errands.

[TeenagerMom]

I'd object to this project. Maybe not out loud or to the teacher.

 

But not for any religious reasons. What's the pedagogical purpose of making a diarama? This is high school Spanish, not grammar school. Serious students should be memorizing vocab, practicing pronunciation, and learning grammar rules and how to apply them. Perhaps one might think that learning about Latin American culture is an important part of Spanish class, and perhaps it is. But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

Except, would you have had to learn it from this thread if you had done it in Spanish class in school? I think this thread is a perfect example WHY it is important to learn these things in Spanish class in school. So students in a diverse, multi-cultural environment understand these important elements of their neighbor's culture and don't just think they are summoning spirits.

[EmseB]

JodiSue, could you link to the quote you cited above? IMHO, using the English word altar in place of the Spanish word ofrenda is very problematic. They are not the same thing. The word altar exists in Spanish and is not interchangeable with ofrenda. You seem to be basing your objection on sloppy translation rather than the actual cultural practices of many Mexicans and Central Americans.

 

Sorry it was sloppy of me not to include the link, something actually kept crashing my browser when I was writing that post and now I can't find it.  This one says much of the same thing.

 

 

Often times people set up home altars dedicated to the same relatives. These are profusely decorated with flowers (primarily yellow and orange marigolds and/or crysanthemums). These were called cempoa-xochitl and are a clear holdover from Pre-Columbian times. For the Aztecs, the color yellow referenced the autumn—a season when nature begins to die. The arc or arco that forms a semi-halo atop the altar is symbolic of the path taken across the heavens by the dead. As in the case of the gravesides, home altars are also adorned with religious amulets and food offerings. The foods chosen are generally those that the deceased enjoyed during his life. This can run the gamut to different kinds of fruit, to cigarettes, and alcoholic beverages.

 

 

 

I'm not sure which part you think I object to or which part you think I'm misunderstanding.  Ofrenda meaning offering?  I wouldn't leave an offering for the dead on an altar, or on a shelf, or on a table, or anywhere, which seems to be the translation or interpretation of the holiday that almost every site I've come across uses.  This site specifically says that the dead are not worshiped, but there is not one single thing shown in those pictures and described in the text that I would feel comfortable doing based on my beliefs.  I don't think I should light candles to "guide them home" or prepare my house for "important visitors" and I wouldn't prepare "food for souls", I don't think I can use flower petals to guide souls...the list goes on.

 

If it makes anyone feel better, I don't think I have any pictures of dead relatives on the wall either, but if we do, it's not in the same context as the above link.  If it's as simple as looking through a photo album or glancing at a framed photo on the wall, the links I've looked at on the subject don't make it sound that minimal (for lack of a better word).

 

Again, I'm sorry my objections to this are so...objectionable.  I don't know what else to say.  I don't feel confused about what DdlM is or what an altar is or what an offering is (even in Spanish).  I wouldn't use my objections to get my kid out of learning about the holiday, I'd make them study it and write a paper (even if the teacher wouldn't accept it, I'd still try to get them to fulfill that part of the class if they wanted to opt out of the altar building).

[Tanaqui]

You seriously say "Yay! Decent weather! What joyous event for my biochemistry?"

 

:lol:

 

Yes, and if I hit my thumb with a hammer I shout "Oh, random fluctuations in the space-time continuum!"

 

But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

 

The art project is almost certainly not the sole aspect of this project. I'm sure they've learned quite a bit, and the final project is just an interesting hands-on aspect that functions as a sort of educational reward for their hard work so far this term.

 

With that said, I have to say that an individual considered old enough to make major religious decisions like getting baptized, and just about old enough to make major life decisions like entering into contracts, choosing a college, or becoming employed, is probably old enough to decide for herself whether or not a given activity is threatening to her faith. At 15, I wouldn't be "allowing" or "not allowing" my own kid to do this project - I'd give my opinion and back up her choice to the teacher if necessary.

 

There are very few things I'd put my foot firmly down about at this age, because I think that making your own choices is an important step in the moral development of any young person. (But you know, I'm a fairly liberal atheist with few authoritarian leanings of any sort, and it is entirely possible that we are diametric opposites when it comes to this aspect of childrearing.)

[albeto.]

sorry

 

mistake

 

more zombies

 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

They're comprised of chemicals. 

 

Certainly not of light. Or quarks. Or brainwaves.

 

 

They are significantly lacking in oxygen. That's my scientific perspective based on observation of their complexions.  :zombie:

[SporkUK]

Again, I'm sorry my objections to this are so...objectionable.  I don't know what else to say.  I don't feel confused about what DdlM is or what an altar is or what an offering is (even in Spanish).  I wouldn't use my objections to get my kid out of learning about the holiday, I'd make them study it and write a paper (even if the teacher wouldn't accept it, I'd still try to get them to fulfill that part of the class if they wanted to opt out of the altar building).

 

I think the objections are less about you personally feeling uncomfortable and more trying to prove against the general concept that is very common that Festivals of the Dead and other non-WASP holidays and traditions are inherently anti-Christian when, especially in the case of DdlM, it is a very important holiday to many very Christian people for whom this is a big part of their faith. I would never want my Christian kin for whom this is special to feel like they were less than so there is an urge there to defend them. 

 

Also, the general concept that this - or any holiday - can only be viewed one way doesn't make sense to many and many are trying to show that it is more multifaceted than google can show those who are not personally connected to it. To me, as someone for whom this is one of the most important days of the year and I am spending a lot of time and energy planning for and looking forward to it, it is not religious, it has nothing to do with spirits, I do not think I guide spirits back to the afterlife with marigold petals even when I love watching them float down the river. The colourful traditions google is likely to show for some include welcoming spirits or guiding them home but for many, this is family time. This is remembering and getting strengths from those we have lost and having a time to deal with the complicated emotions their deaths and knowledge of our own deaths. We will have the table set and the flowers -- and readings from various sources on the feelings and points of view about death. As we lost my partner's brother just a couple month ago, this will be a rather emotional year, not but because we think he will visit (even if he could, I doubt he would visit us instead of his wife...) but because the feelings connected with death will be more complicated than in previous years when it was only grandparents' pictures at the table. 

 

I have no desire for people to do something they are uncomfortable with or lay a table at all. I just want others to understand that for many this has deep Christian meaning that is important to their faith and for others it has no religious meaning at all, but a deep personal, cultural meaning even if they do not believe they are actually guiding the dead.

 

Also, from a former religious academic point of view, the Biblical verses against necromancy/raising and talking to spirit of the dead are about a specific cultural practices around Israel at the time in which people would fast and sleep in graveyards with the belief that the dead could tell them the future (which is why Saul is so harshly punished). They are with the anti-divination beliefs spoken of throughout those sections of text. It is very different from remembrance traditions such as DdlM which is why in some Christian traditions these remembrance days are still very important while others have more of a blanket tradition against due to those verse to create more of a barrier to prevent any temptation. Which is why it is very important that it not get into Christian vs not Christian or Biblical vs not Biblical but how much does a person personally need and what they feel comfortable with and what their traditions and community have built to support people in their relationship with death and those they've lost. For some, this is a big part of it, others have other ways of dealing with it and feel more protected without this. It's personal like all of our relationships with death. 

[Butter]

I'd object to this project.  Maybe not out loud or to the teacher.

 

But not for any religious reasons.  What's the pedagogical purpose of making a diarama?  This is high school Spanish, not grammar school.  Serious students should be memorizing vocab, practicing pronunciation, and learning grammar rules and how to apply them.  Perhaps one might think that learning about Latin American culture is an important part of Spanish class, and perhaps it is.  But, I've learned more about what the Day of the Dead means in this short forum posting than I would be any art project.

 

High school foreign language classes require learning the culture of countries where that language is spoken in addition to learning the language.  Kids, including high school kids, learn a lot from craft projects like these.  It's a valid assignment.

[Ravin]

My dd, 15 is in Spanish 2 this year and they have been split into groups to make Dia de los Muertos Alters. DD LOVES this sort of thing, of course, she was educated with a lot of hands on projects WTM style. She is good at this sort of project, probably from years of making timelines and models and fancy notebooks. She always gets an A+ on any project that she does in school.

 

So what is the problem??? I am uncomfortable with the idea of making an alter to a spirit, even if it is just pretending. Is that nutty or what? What do you think? She is going to do it. She is already planning to use my good Mexican dishes that I bought on a mission trip to Mexico, and she is going to town to buy candles and special bread and paper cut outs and yellow carnations.

 

I would like to give her a word of caution about making an alter to anything, though. I understand it is a school project and she is required to do it. She is also happy to do it, but I want her to understand that an alter to anything may open spiritual doors that would not be good to open.

 

Does anyone have any advice on this? All thoughts are welcome.

 

Okay, so what you seem to be hung up on is that it's an "altar" and you associate that with worship, right?

 

The point of it is not necessarily worship--it's a way to concentrate memories and think about, remember, and honor loved ones who have passed. You can do that regardless of your beliefs about the afterlife, unless you come from a religious tradition where it is taboo to talk about the dead.

[Saddlemomma]

I haven't read all the other replies, but I can tell you that I've BTDT in my youth and it didn't turn out well AT.All.  I wasn't even a Christian at the time (I was 13 when I did this incredibly stupid thing), but I was tormented for years afterwards.  It wasn't until years later talking with a Christian (who became current DH, and who led me to the Lord) that I realized what I had done. I had opened a crack in that spiritual world door and that was it. Bear in mind that it wasn't building an alter, but same type of door; same crack opportunity:

 

"They believed that the gates to heaven are opened at midnight on October 31, and the spirits of all deceased children (angelitos) are allowed to reunite with their families for 24 hours.  On November 2, the spirits of adults come down to enjoy the festivities prepared for them."
 

Information cited from: History of Day of the Dead

 

God's word is very clear about not attempting to seek out or speak with the dead.  Remember Saul and what happened when he sought out Samuel.

 

Now, I will probably get blasted for this because so many people claim to believe in the Bible and God, but not the metaphysical world of spirits and an ongoing, unseen cosmic spiritual battle in the world (sounds strange even typing it).  That's fine and everyone can believe what they want.  If you've never experienced such things, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Unfortunately,however, I've seen it live and in person.  I lived in it almost constantly for 3 years as a teen. It's not pretty. I still have glimpses into that realm which are terrifying and upsetting.  I still have to be very careful about what I watch on TV or read because it could trigger another trip into demon land. I don't usually talk about it and only a handful of people are aware of it, but when I see another person about to open that doorway for themselves, it would be a terrible injustice for me to remain silent.  

 

Both my ex-DH (Atheist), current DH, and eldest DD have witnessed what I go through and have seen the results of it which are totally inexplicable in the material world.  It terrified ex-DH for, as an Atheist, he had no frame of reference for it, but he came to respect my direction about certain things if I was adamant about how to handle something. While episodes are now few and far between, I still have them on occasion, I hide as much as I can from youngest DD for she is highly sensitive.

 

Please, talk with your DD and her teacher.  Explain your religious reservations and seek a compromise from the teacher for another applicable project your DD could present to the class as an alternative to an alter.

[MercyA]

Now, I will probably get blasted for this because so many people claim to believe in the Bible and God, but not the metaphysical world of spirits and an ongoing, unseen cosmic spiritual battle in the world (sounds strange even typing it). 

 

Yes, demons are absolutely real and active in both the physical and spiritual realms. (And you all can blast me, too, if you want.  ;) )

[Bluegoat]

I wouldn't object.  I'm a very committed and orthodox Christian, for the record.

 

I also would watch out about equating praying for the dead or even to the dead as "anti-Christian".  You've just cut out the majority of Christians today and throughout history in one fell swoop.

[Guest]

I haven't read all the other replies, but I can tell you that I've BTDT in my youth and it didn't turn out well AT.All. I wasn't even a Christian at the time (I was 13 when I did this incredibly stupid thing), but I was tormented for years afterwards. It wasn't until years later talking with a Christian (who became current DH, and who led me to the Lord) that I realized what I had done. I had opened a crack in that spiritual world door and that was it. Bear in mind that it wasn't building an alter, but same type of door; same crack opportunity:

 

 

"They believed that the gates to heaven are opened at midnight on October 31, and the spirits of all deceased children (angelitos) are allowed to reunite with their families for 24 hours. On November 2, the spirits of adults come down to enjoy the festivities prepared for them."

 

Information cited from: History of Day of the Dead

God's word is very clear about not attempting to seek out or speak with the dead. Remember Saul and what happened when he sought out Samuel.

 

Now, I will probably get blasted for this because so many people claim to believe in the Bible and God, but not the metaphysical world of spirits and an ongoing, unseen cosmic spiritual battle in the world (sounds strange even typing it). That's fine and everyone can believe what they want. If you've never experienced such things, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Unfortunately,however, I've seen it live and in person. I lived in it almost constantly for 3 years as a teen. It's not pretty. I still have glimpses into that realm which are terrifying and upsetting. I still have to be very careful about what I watch on TV or read because it could trigger another trip into demon land. I don't usually talk about it and only a handful of people are aware of it, but when I see another person about to open that doorway for themselves, it would be a terrible injustice for me to remain silent.

 

Both my ex-DH (Atheist), current DH, and eldest DD have witnessed what I go through and have seen the results of it which are totally inexplicable in the material world. It terrified ex-DH for, as an Atheist, he had no frame of reference for it, but he came to respect my direction about certain things if I was adamant about how to handle something. While episodes are now few and far between, I still have them on occasion, I hide as much as I can from youngest DD for she is highly sensitive.

 

Please, talk with your DD and her teacher. Explain your religious reservations and seek a compromise from the teacher for another applicable project your DD could present to the class as an alternative to an alter.

So, this all happened because you built a memorial table for Spanish class?

[abba12]

I haven't read all the other replies, but I can tell you that I've BTDT in my youth and it didn't turn out well AT.All.  I wasn't even a Christian at the time (I was 13 when I did this incredibly stupid thing), but I was tormented for years afterwards.  It wasn't until years later talking with a Christian (who became current DH, and who led me to the Lord) that I realized what I had done. I had opened a crack in that spiritual world door and that was it. Bear in mind that it wasn't building an alter, but same type of door; same crack opportunity:

 

"They believed that the gates to heaven are opened at midnight on October 31, and the spirits of all deceased children (angelitos) are allowed to reunite with their families for 24 hours.  On November 2, the spirits of adults come down to enjoy the festivities prepared for them."

 

Information cited from: History of Day of the Dead

 

God's word is very clear about not attempting to seek out or speak with the dead.  Remember Saul and what happened when he sought out Samuel.

 

Now, I will probably get blasted for this because so many people claim to believe in the Bible and God, but not the metaphysical world of spirits and an ongoing, unseen cosmic spiritual battle in the world (sounds strange even typing it).  That's fine and everyone can believe what they want.  If you've never experienced such things, I wouldn't expect you to understand. Unfortunately,however, I've seen it live and in person.  I lived in it almost constantly for 3 years as a teen. It's not pretty. I still have glimpses into that realm which are terrifying and upsetting.  I still have to be very careful about what I watch on TV or read because it could trigger another trip into demon land. I don't usually talk about it and only a handful of people are aware of it, but when I see another person about to open that doorway for themselves, it would be a terrible injustice for me to remain silent.  

 

Both my ex-DH (Atheist), current DH, and eldest DD have witnessed what I go through and have seen the results of it which are totally inexplicable in the material world.  It terrified ex-DH for, as an Atheist, he had no frame of reference for it, but he came to respect my direction about certain things if I was adamant about how to handle something. While episodes are now few and far between, I still have them on occasion, I hide as much as I can from youngest DD for she is highly sensitive.

 

Please, talk with your DD and her teacher.  Explain your religious reservations and seek a compromise from the teacher for another applicable project your DD could present to the class as an alternative to an alter.

 

 

Yes, demons are absolutely real and active in both the physical and spiritual realms. (And you all can blast me, too, if you want.  ;) )

 

Yes, yes, 1000x yes. 

If only we could get the church at large to see this, instead of bouncing between 'demons aren't real, they're a metaphor' and 'demons are everywhere causing all sin and possession is happening so frequently that we can cast out 'demons' every Sunday'

And don't get me started on the church's denial of any long term effects of such experiences....  because once God takes something like that away he totally heals a person so they are never again bothered by the memories of what occurred, right?  :glare:

[Guest]

I find it insulting to say "I did this xyz thing that millions of Spanish speaking Christians do every year and it opened the door to demons".

[albeto.]

Yes, demons are absolutely real and active in both the physical and spiritual realms. (And you all can blast me, too, if you want.  ;) )

 

No they aren't. Their effects have never been shown to exist in the physical realm, and no one can identify and isolate any spiritual realm with any relevancy in order to test it. 

 

They are assumed to be real. They are believed to be active. But opinions and facts are not interchangeable. 

[albeto.]

I find it insulting to say "I did this xyz thing that millions of Spanish speaking Christians do every year and it opened the door to demons".

 

It is offensive. It's also offensive to set up a mock religious ritual for social purposes. Can you imagine a school in some non-xian country having a "xian project" whereby the students bring in dolls to baptize with tap water, followed by ritz crackers and pepsi because they're learning about the Jewish demigod who some people believe makes them immoral if they have the right psychic connection with him in the astral plane? How quaint, eh?

 

I find it humorous to hear people talk seriously about bringing demons into their homes and lives via school projects, but then Pat Robertson is supposedly an embarrassment to xians, and people who take these demons "seriously" are cast out of the ingroup. It's all the same argument, all the same belief - invisible demons conspiring to make your day really, really bad. Not unlike gremlins, but of course everyone "knows" they don't exist. 

 

 

[Minerva]

I guess I don't see how Dia de los Muertos celebrations are any different than hanging stockings or decorating Christmas trees. These are traditions borrowed by Christian cultures from other ancient traditions. Millions and millions of Christians put up Christmas trees every year and have visits from Santa without any demonic repercussions.  

 

I am not trying to be disrespectful here, just not understanding. 

[MercyA]

No they aren't. Their effects have never been shown to exist in the physical realm, and no one can identify and isolate any spiritual realm with any relevancy in order to test it. 

 

They are assumed to be real. They are believed to be active. But opinions and facts are not interchangeable. 

 

I agree that some people base these beliefs on assumptions. I am not. Sorry, that's all I can say about it here.