How do you feel about organic food?

[Prairie~Phlox]

How do you feel about organic food?

[Carrie12345]

I'm very big on organics, but I have cut back a bit while we try to establish a new budget. I need to start *cooking organic, rather than buying so much prepackaged. But I hate to cook!

[Laurel]

I'm very big on organic food. I am, however, more a fan of local food that is grown using organic methods, even if they are not necessarily certified organic. I love talking to the farmer and finding out their standards. This is especially important for me when it comes to buying eggs or meat. I think "organic" has gotten a little watered-down, as corporations see thta's where the money is, and have lobbied for looser standards. By buying direct from the farmer, I can find out what "free-range," grass-fed, etc. means to him. Plus I'm supporting my local farmers, not some huge corporation, and it takes much less energy to get food to me, and it's fresher, so likely to have more nutrients, and, one of the most important things to me - it just tastes better.

[Miss Peregrine]

I am fan of organic real food. Produce, dairy, meats.

When I see things like organic pop-tarts and organic pancake batter in an aerosol can, it's just silly. :rolleyes:

[hsmamainva]

I always buy organic eggs, milk, and meat, especially when it comes to beef and chicken.

 

And we buy most of our fruits and vegetables at the local farmers market or I look for organic.

 

Everything else (staples, canned goods, paper products, etc.) are just regular brands.

[mommylawyer]

I used to be very anti-organic, but I guess I'm starting to see the light somewhat. Although, it will take DH much more convincing.

 

I marked the box on the poll that reads something along the lines of "too expensive for my budget." I'd buy more, but for us it's either buy organic or piano lessons. Piano wins.

[E_Edgerton]

I buy as much organic/natural/local produce, cereal, and snacks as I can. I do however, only buy organic dairy(milk, yogurt, ice cream, cream for my coffee). For some reason I feel like that is most important. I am unsure why. I think it has to do with my irrational feelings towards milk. :)

[Mom to Aly]

Well, I would love to buy organic, but can only afford to when it is on sale, basically as cheap as reg. products. There is too little info to be sure organic is better for you--yes, I'd love not to have all the pesticides in our bodies, but there is only proof that about 2/3 less pesticides get on organic fruit, and many feel if you wash your produce with a good cleanser, the rest will come off. Also, there are the toxins produced by organic products that have to fight off pests naturally--some of those can be more dangerous than man-made toxins.

 

I'm not saying organic isn't better for you--just that there isn't definitive proof. But I still would like to buy it, when there is some more research on the self produced toxins, simply because it is so much better for the environment, when I can afford it.

 

Oh, but would love to buy milk and dairy from animals that are well treated--just not raw. I still feel that is not as safe.

[Slartibartfast]

I am fan of organic real food. Produce, dairy, meats.

When I see things like organic pop-tarts and organic pancake batter in an aerosol can, it's just silly. :rolleyes:

:lol:

 

This is true.

 

I am more concerned about antibiotics and hormones in meat and dairy than I am produce but I do still try and buy locally grown organic produce in season.

 

It isn't as bad in season...but in the winter-time it is rough.

[Diana B]

Well, I would love to buy organic, but can only afford to when it is on sale, basically as cheap as reg. products.

 

Agreed! My big thing is not so much organic as natural. No high-fructose corn syrup, preservatives, etc. (we do end up with this stuff, but i buy as little as possible). Buying natural usually is cheaper, if more time consuming because I make a lot more of my own things. The organic label is not as important to me, but will look for it when shopping (especially at the discount stores) because it represents, to me, that the food is more natural. I still check ingredients though!

 

I'm big on watching for cheap stuff. Grocery Outlet carries quite a bit of organic and natural foods, and it ends up being cheaper than the non-organic in the regular stores. I also recently got organic strawberries for $1 a quart (yes, I'm talking earlier this week, I didn't know strawberries were still in season, let alone cheap! And they were the best strawberries of the season!).

[Mom to Aly]

Agreed! My big thing is not so much organic as natural. No high-fructose corn syrup, preservatives, etc. (we do end up with this stuff, but i buy as little as possible). Buying natural usually is cheaper, if more time consuming because I make a lot more of my own things. The organic label is not as important to me, but will look for it when shopping (especially at the discount stores) because it represents, to me, that the food is more natural. I still check ingredients though!

 

I'm big on watching for cheap stuff. Grocery Outlet carries quite a bit of organic and natural foods, and it ends up being cheaper than the non-organic in the regular stores. I also recently got organic strawberries for $1 a quart (yes, I'm talking earlier this week, I didn't know strawberries were still in season, let alone cheap! And they were the best strawberries of the season!).

 

Yes, natural is much more important to me--although, where I live, it is usually quite expensive. That, and cruelty free, are #1 priorities to me.

 

Congrats on your strawberries--what a find! :D

[senunk]

About 80% of our food is organic. I started buying organic half-heartedly because I was learning about toxins, etc. But, then I realized I was allergic to sulfites (which is in lots of stuff) so I was forced to go almost all organic. Now, I can taste the difference. I accidently took a few bites out of a non-organic apple recently and could immediately taste the difference. Besides, within 20 minutes, my chest and face were flushed. :glare:

Not only do I not like the pesticides, but I don't like all the fillers they put in foods, like corn syrup. I buy all organic fruits, veggies, dairy products, and eggs. I buy mostly natural household cleansers. I occasionally buy organic meat, but we mostly eat the elk that my dh hunts. Prices have been increasing, and it hurts sometimes, but I have noticed that by eating healthier, we eat less.

[emeraldjoy]

We cannot afford to buy organic for the most part; however I am always, always searching for the sales.

 

90% of our meat is wild game (deer, elk, antelope) that my husband hunts; a luxury of living in Montana and I am forever thankful for that sort of opportunity for us.

 

One thing that really bothers me about the organic thing is that I feel like it is a sort of "elitess (sp?)" luxury. Sometimes when my wild consipiracy theories get off balance I even find myself thinking that there must be some ploy intended to poision the poor who have not the option to eat poision free stuff. Our local health food store is a hard place for this frumpy poor woman with several ragamuffins to be. It feels very uncomfortable and in some ways immoral even to be a part of it. Not sure how much sense this makes. Simply put, I wish everyone were afforded the same privaledges and choices; especially involving such strong health issues.

E

[gandpsmommy]

I love organic food; it makes me feel so much safer feeding produce to my kids if it is organic. I used to buy a lot more organic, but with food prices already so high right now, I choose not to buy so much.

[Snickerdoodle]

I am fan of organic real food. Produce, dairy, meats.

When I see things like organic pop-tarts and organic pancake batter in an aerosol can, it's just silly. :rolleyes:

 

:iagree:

[Melissa in Australia]

I voted other.

We grow all of or veggies, and 85% of our fruit. they are not certified organic. but they are not sprayed with anything. and they are picked within2 hours of eating.:D

We also grow all of our own meat, and milk!

[Plaid Dad]

Another "other" here. I will almost always choose local food over trucked-in organic. Our area has a very strong local food culture, much of which is organic but not certified - the certification is too expensive for our small family farms.

[bumbledeb]

I'm trying to grow more of my own fruit and veg, but anything I need to buy I always look for organic and buy that if it is available.

[Melinda in VT]

Another "other" here. I will almost always choose local food over trucked-in organic. Our area has a very strong local food culture, much of which is organic but not certified - the certification is too expensive for our small family farms.

 

This is how we do it too.

[Doran]

Fifteen years ago, I lived on Long Island and worked at a small, crunchy natural food store that served as my initiation into natural and organic foods and products. When I left L.I. and moved to MD, I ended up taking a job as a grower for a small farm, eventually helping to establish a farmers' market in our town. I managed that market and sold our produce there for 10 years. The foods I grew (including pastured chickens for eggs) were all raised using organic practices, but we never sought certification. I interfaced with many growers during those years - conventional and organic - and I still do, developing e a deep respect for all small farmers. I am passionate about the foods we consume, but I am also concerned about how all foods are grown, distributed, and what that means for the planet. Over the past year, I have not had the financial means to continue to purchase as many organic foods as I once did, but I still pay very close attention to labels and make conscientious choices to the best of my ability. Following is a random listing of factors which influence my decisions on when, whether, and what to purchase, and whether it will be organic or not.

 

1. I eat locally before I eat organically. For six months of the year, 95% of our fresh produce comes from the farmers' market. I am trying more than ever this year to freeze or can produce for use over the winter. If I can't find an organic product from a local producer, then I'll buy a conventional one. Sometimes, even when I can find a local organic producer, though, I'll opt for conventional because I can't, right now, afford the difference in price.

 

2. An organic label does not necessarily mean a food is good for you. An example would be the Toaster Pastries mentioned above. However, if I'm going to buy such a product anyway, I would consider buying organic versus regular becuase there will be fewer preservatives. Example: Annies Cheddar Bunnies vs. Goldfish. I do buy some of these kinds of snack foods, and I prefer the ingredient list on the former.

 

3. Organic does not mean no pesticides! Organic growers use many types of pesticides & fungicides. These are not made from synthetic ingredients like the conventional counterparts, which can mean they have a lesser impact on the earth and on our bodies. But, monocultures of organic strawberries, for example, are still grown using a variety of organically approved sprays.

 

4. In my opinion, consuming fresh or frozen fruits and vegetables which are grown across the continent or world from where I live simply because I want to have an organic product defeats the purpose of eating organically. If the idea is to promote the use of products which are less toxic to ourselves and our environment, but I'm eating something that uses four times the fossil fuels getting shipped across the miles compared to something I could purchase locally, then the overall gain is nill. Of course, a similar rule applies to all produce eaten out of season, so I factor this into my selection process when I'm shopping in winter, when most produce is out of season here.

 

5. Certain products I purchase almost exclusively organic. Carrots, because they are cheap and not abundant locally. Celery, ditto carrots and because it is one of the more highly sprayed conventional products. Apples, when not available locally, used to fall into this category, but I recently shifted to conventionally produced apples due the $1+/lb. price difference. Milk used to fall into this category as well, but I now buy conventional milk from a large but local dairy known to use no growth hormones in their herds. I buy the bulk of my meats from a local producer. We do eat some Applegate products (hot dogs, sandwich meat), and we eat some wild venison as well.

 

6. The recent upsurge of organic products disturbs me because it represents a lack of integrity in the whole idea of organic foods. This is especially true with the processed foods, but it also applies to fresh and frozen produce, meats, and dairy. Sadly, in today's global economy, the organic "vision" as it was set out requires a paradigm shift which is not likely for it depends on small, diverse, local producers and a food system where farmers are paid what food is worth instead of a subsidized system which rewards large scale conventional production. It also depends on more consumers being willing to eat seasonally and to choose to spend as much on food as they do on Starbucks coffees and wide screen t.v.'s. I do believe that organics are financially unrealistic to many average Americans, but I also believe that there is a large subset of consumers who *could* find the means to purchase foods that they feel are now too expensive, were they to give up certain other optional expenditures. It is a very complicated issue, but as increased fuel prices continue to dramatically effect the cost of transportation and production of food, and as food security becomes a more prevalent issue, we may find that consumers shift their attentions to locally produced foods more than ever before. This will be, in my view, a great day!

[Kris]

I voted "would love to but too expensive." Maybe when my son doesn't eat enough for four people . . . :lol:

 

I miss my garden. I loved coming home from work at night and going out to see what was new -- and there was always something new. Those little yellow pear tomatoes were like nibbling on little candies. And what I couldn't grow myself, we could get at the farmer's market -- we went every weekend.

 

But I guess I'm muddling up several different things. Organic? Yeah -- that would be nice. But even more than that I'd love to have veggies again that actually taste like something, and not like the box they were packed in.

[Jennifer3141]

I buy organic quite a bit but my first priority is looking for local food, which is more often than not, organic.

 

There is some produce that I buy that I only buy the organic version of but I look for the local label more than anything else.

 

Jen

[Audrey]

How do you feel about organic food?

 

I put "other." When I'm feeling about organic food I use my hands.

[TraceyS/FL]

3. Organic does not mean no pesticides! Organic growers use many types of pesticides & fungicides. These are not made from synthetic ingredients like the conventional counterparts, which can mean they have a lesser impact on the earth and on our bodies. But, monocultures of organic strawberries, for example, are still grown using a variety of organically approved sprays.

 

And that doesn't mean they use LESS either.

 

The list of products labeled for "organic" in CA is about 4 inches thick (or was 5~ years ago). Often those products aren't as effective as others, and a grower will apply more and more often to treat a certain infestation.

 

I speak from first hand knowledge as my family was in the Crop Care business for over 25 years.

 

The other thing i can say - those growers were cheap. Never fear, they are not applying more products than necessary to produce a crop. Product is expensive - they fight tooth and nail to NOT have to apply.

 

I would never buy something from someone that i didn't get to know (like was mentioned up the thread - knowing the farmer and his methods are important), but to walk up to the local farmers market and buy without knowing that - knowing that those people are not regulated nor have to produce 25 pieces of paper for every job and it gets reported to the county and state, with random testing..... well, you can do your body more harm with the wrong combo of products applied from Home Depot.

 

SOOOO, for me, knowing what i know from my prior "real life job", i'm apt to buy commercial produce over something from someone i don't know, commercial organic or grow it myself.

 

And i'm really putting myself out there with this post.......

[Doran]

I put "other." When I'm feeling about organic food I use my hands.

 

 

 

Everyone knows that organic is best felt between the toes! :lol:

[Kris]

And i'm really putting myself out there with this post.......

 

Well, maybe -- but you're made some really valid points!

 

I remember reading an article in "The Mother Earth News" I don't know how many years ago about the government getting involved in the "organic" movement. The first issue was how to define it (kinda like "natural" -- I'm a label reader), and then all the paperwork and regulation that went with it. If I remember correctly -- and it was quite some time ago -- the crux of the matter was that government regulation was a "bad thing." And I tend to agree -- not only from the paperwork standpoint, which is ridiculously complex -- but also from the definition standpoint. I think a lot of people feel "organic" means no pest or weed control products of any kind, which is just not the case.

[SW in IL]

We did at least 6 months of buying about almost all organic but then finances caused us to cut back to the point that we now rarely buy organic. Pretty much everything other than fresh produce is bought on sale at the local grocery stores. The Organic stores are quite a drive, and with the price of gas it's prohibitive to make the trip. Mostly I simply can't afford to pay the $1.29 for bananas that it cost at Whole Foods the last time I was there (several months)... And There was a brand of hummus that was $2.99 at Whole Foods and the same size and brand was around $1.50 at the local grocery (very small organic section).

 

We do buy at Farmer's Markets or farm stands when we have the chance. Otherwise, we buy most of our fresh fruits and veggies at local produce stores... Come to think of it, we also buy much of our meat there. I'm sure it's not organic, but it's affordable and that has to take precedence when money is as tight as it is now.

 

And, to be honest, I didn't see or feel any personal/family benefits when we were eating almost strictly organic.

 

SW in IL

[Reya]

How do you feel about organic food?

 

"Free range chickens" are just renamed yard birds with prices to match. :-)

 

Buying organic hasn't been shown to be better for anyone for any product.

 

That said, some organic purchases are more sensible than others. Some are a waste of money. (Organic root vegetables!) Some might possibly be worth something. A great deal is a scam to get fat margins in an industry that's cut-throat and famous for razor-thin margins. I guess that means people who buy the extremely inflated organic prices are subsidizing my grocery purchases. Fine by me! :-)

 

Buying organic is very unlikely to be better for the environment, and it is certainly not good for world hunger, so environmental and humanitarian reasons for organic purchases should be looked at with extreme suspicion.

 

I buy organic when it's cheaper. Otherwise, I just wash my food well and try to buy fresh.

 

When my garden's really started--then I'll be "buying" organic!

[Storm Bay]

We prefer organic, humanely raised or cultivated food. Just because they can't find more vitamins, etc, in organic food doesn't mean that chemical feritilizers don't have a negative effect. They have found that foods not sprayed with insecticides have more antioxidants than food not sprayed, whether fertilized naturally or with chemicals. But overuse of natural fertilizers, such as fish, can also have a negative effect, according to dh, who has a degree in forest management.

 

I think we need healthy farming and ranching practices, and that factory farming and ranching is not only detrimental to the environment, but to our health and quality of food. We need crop rotation, composting, good soil practices, fields allowed a fallow year, etc. Animals raised in healthy environments. Anyone who as eaten TRUE free range chickens such as those raised in a back yard, can tell as soon as they crack an egg if a chicken has really been raised that way or just loose in some constricted barn because it shows instantly in the yolk (yolks should be orange, not yellow, for one thing.)

 

But farming and ranching has become big business, and, IMO, big business is usually more concerned with making a buck than healthy food or a healthy environment. Eating local is better in many ways due to less gas in transport. We started with a pair of small gardens, and plan to expand next year. That's local and organic. And, yes, I did use a plant based spray or I would have had a lot of my crop gone. I also mercilessly drowned some grasshoppers (no longer my cute little friends) and katydids who were eating my crop, including a pair of grasshoppers who had the nerve to be drinking tea on a corn stalk in the middle of the day. Plus a couple of tomato hornworms (really moth caterpillars and they get large). But I know what went on my plants and when, and only did it as needed.

[Reya]

Anyone who as eaten TRUE free range chickens such as those raised in a back yard, can tell as soon as they crack an egg if a chicken has really been raised that way or just loose in some constricted barn because it shows instantly in the yolk (yolks should be orange, not yellow, for one thing.)

 

The difference in eggs has only to do with their age. Store eggs are old. Fresh eggs--organic or not, free range or not--are yummier and, yes, orange!

 

As for how yard birds taste? Tough...stringy....horrible...yeah, that's a start. :-) Meat chickens are killed very young for a reason!

[The Governess]

I highly recommend the book Fresh Choices. The author goes into a lot of detail on the different labels that foods can carry: "natural," "organic," "free-range," "grass fed," "kosher," etc. and what the differences are. She discusses which foods are most important to buy organic and which ones you really don't need to spend the extra money for.

 

After reading this book, I only buy organic apples and apple products now. I had no idea that apples are at the top of the list for pesticide residue. Strawberries are bad too. But I won't spend the extra money for organic blueberries because they rarely have much pesticide residue even when conventionally grown.

 

I also learned that even organic produce has pesticide residue, usually about 1/3 of conventionally grown produce, because it's in the air and leftover in the soil, etc. And that produce grown at smaller, local farms, even if grown conventionally, usually has significantly less pesticides than what you buy in the produce section of the grocery store because they use crop rotation, etc. and don't have the pest problems that these huge single-crop farms might. And if you can't afford 100% organic beef or chicken, grass-fed or kosher or free-range can be a good alternative.

 

Anyway, I highly recommend this book if you can't afford to go 100% organic and are trying to figure out where to make cuts.

[Amy loves Bud]

I voted other, but really it's a combo of "buying organic no matter what because it's the best" and "organic is overrated". I think that in some areas organic is an unnecessary expense and I blow it off. Bananas fall into this category. Other items I won't budge on - dairy, for example. Just like most things in life, I think organic is and area where extreme generalizations don't work.

[Jennifer3141]

The difference in eggs has only to do with their age. Store eggs are old. Fresh eggs--organic or not, free range or not--are yummier and, yes, orange!

 

As for how yard birds taste? Tough...stringy....horrible...yeah, that's a start. :-) Meat chickens are killed very young for a reason!

 

I haven't found that to be true at all.

 

We have a CSA share that includes heirloom chicken eggs every week. There is a world of differnce in the taste of those egss even when they've been in the fridge for a couple of weeks. They are definately more orange as well but there's a taste difference. We did a taste test comparing the 3 week old CSA eggs and the store-bought eggs and DH (who's the world's biggest skeptic) tasted a difference. It was odd. And it's been 6 months since I bought store eggs. Yuck.

 

And I've started buying local, farm raised and free ranging chicken. They are free because you have to drive slowly when you come into the farm or you might run someone over. They are killed as humanely as can be done and have a great life prior to their deaths. None of those chickens have been stringy. They have had a little more dark meat and I've noticed less grease in the pot when I make homemade chicken soup but that's basically the only difference. Oh, and they are usually a little smaller and there's no plastic-y smell to them.

 

Jen

[Doran]

The difference in eggs has only to do with their age. Store eggs are old. Fresh eggs--organic or not, free range or not--are yummier and, yes, orange!

 

As for how yard birds taste? Tough...stringy....horrible...yeah, that's a start. :-) Meat chickens are killed very young for a reason!

 

 

I felt you made some pretty broad judgements against organics in your previous reply, but since there were nuggets of truth to much of what you said, I decided it wasn't essential to offer a rebuttal. However, the remark you make just above, about yolk color being dependent upon age, is incorrect and causes me to wonder what sources you are using to glean the information you are posting.

 

I'm not sure what to make of your comment on the difference between "yard birds" and meat birds. One can fairly easily locate organic/grass fed meat birds which are no less tender than their commercial counterparts. Meat birds, generally, have shorter lives - you're right - which is due in part to the fact that the longer a bird lives, the tougher its muscles become. But, it is also due to the fact that "meat birds", as a rule, are bred to be ready for harvest in 6-10 weeks, depending on the breed. Leave them alive longer than than and the bird will actually die of a heart attack because its body becomes so large that its legs can no longer support it, thus it collapses and dies of suffocation/heart failure. Weird scientific "advances", no? ;) Other birds, which are bred to serve a dual purpose as either a meat or egg laying bird, still must be harvested young or cooked long in order to be palatable for the table.

 

I was most interested in your comment about yolk color. The color of a yolk depends solely on the diet of the hen that laid the egg. A diet rich in plant compounds will create a yolk which is bright yellow to orange, while a diet more lacking in certain plant nutrients will cause the yolk color to become paler yellow to almost colorless. You can check this information here. Commerical producers know this about yolk color and, as such, they use feeds which are enhanced with products to bolster yolk color to the extent that budget and regulations allow. Small producers of grass-fed birds use Mother Nature as a tool, for it is the grassy and leafy plants those birds eat which affects the color of their egg yolks. It has nothing to do with age. As for the nutrional value of eggs and meat from grass fed animals, you might find the information below of interest. You can read more about the studies which support theories that grasss fed is more nutritious here.

 

 

Medical "experts" promulgate the myth that eggs from pastured poultry are no better than supermarket eggs

 

Many people turn to internet websites for their health information, and few sites are as highly regarded as the Mayo Clinic Health Oasis site which professes to offer "Reliable information for a healthier life." (http://www.mayohealth.org/index.htm) In a recent posting, the Mayo Clinic experts proclaimed, "Whether hens are raised free-range or in cages has no effect on the nutrients in the eggs they lay," and, then later on in the same article, "Feed and yolk color don't alter the nutritive content of the egg."

 

The experts should be more thorough in their research. As you will see by the posts below and by reading Why Grassfed Is Best!, eggs from pastured poultry are higher in omega-3 fatty acids, vitamin E, and vitamin A. Meanwhile, they are lower in total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol. In addition, there is a direct relationship between feed, yolk color, and the nutrient content of the egg. The more orange the yolk, the higher the level of health-enhancing carotenoids. Compared to supermarket eggs, eggs from pastured poultry are a vivid yellow/orange—proof of a richer store of disease-fighting carotenes.

 

(Bornstein, S. and I. Bartov (1966). "Studies on egg yolk pigmentation. I. A comparison between visual scoring of yolk color and colorimetric assay of yolk carotenoids." Poult Sci 45(2): 287-96.)

 

 

 

There is debate over whether organic food production is, ultimately, better for the individual or for the environment. After reading various articles and essays about the topic --

 

http://www.grist.org/advice/books/2006/05/18/fromartz/index.html

 

http://www.ajc.com/eveningedge/content/eveningedge/stories/2008/09/04/advice_on_organic_food.html

 

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Natural-Health/2007-12-01/Is-Organic-Food-Healthier.aspx

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Diet/story?id=3353401&page=1

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/green-living/the-great-organic-myths-why-organic-foods-are-an-indulgence-the-world-cant-afford-818585.html

 

 

 

 

 

-- the only conclusion I can draw is that there is evidence which points to positives and negatives in both directions. Members of both camps often come off sounding defensive and, in my mind, shoot holes in their arguments merely by being so. I found this to be a healthy debate.

 

I am, clearly, passionate about food and how it is produced. I try to be open minded about the advantages or disadvantages of any method of food production or distribution, and I maintain that the best consumer is a well informed one.

[Maria from IN]

Another "Other" here.

 

As most of you know, I'm allergic to basically every grain but rice. This makes eating rather expensive...right now a loaf of bread is $4.69 around here, and resources are very limited.

 

There is one tiny hole-in-the-wall natural foods store here that has massive catalogues from which they can order almost anything, and they have never failed to amaze me with their resourcefulness. It's because of this place and the Kroger down the street that my repertoire of recipes has expanded in recent years.

 

So I guess it was for medical reasons that I switched to organic...kicking and screaming. I actually haven't the money or the time to research our eating habits right now, but I hope someday I can use organics as part of a "program" to bring myself back to optimum health.

 

:001_smile:

[Melenie]

I buy organic milk and meat where affordable. I also have a box of organic veggies and fruit delivered weekly (keeps cost very low). Then I buy the rest when it is on sale. I just cannot do all Organic, but would if I could.

[6packofun]

I feel like eating it.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I buy a lot of organic foods. I willingly pay more for it because I feel reflects the true price of food. However, many items are not available as organic, so I make do. We cut costs in other areas to have money for it. I feel very blessed that we are able to do so.

[Rosie_0801]

My family's health isn't the only reason I buy organic when it's possible to do so. The organic movement is also about everyone else. I did an essay at uni and read that a fifth of Caribbean banana plantation workers are sterile due to the excessive contact with chemical fertilizers and whatnot. In places like that, kids are your superannuation. I don't want to contribute to those sorts of problems any more than I can help! Nor with kids in Ecuador working with chemicals up to 11 hours a day.

It's not possible to make 100% ethical choices, and we have our own balancing games to play between ethics, economy and energy. Doing our best for whatever cause is important to us is better than doing nothing.

:)

Rosie

[Storm Bay]

The difference in eggs has only to do with their age. Store eggs are old. Fresh eggs--organic or not, free range or not--are yummier and, yes, orange!

 

As for how yard birds taste? Tough...stringy....horrible...yeah, that's a start. :-) Meat chickens are killed very young for a reason!

 

Absolutely true about the very old meat chickens. Old hens used to be slowly simmered for soup, because the slow cooking helps soften the meat, kind of like cooking brisket. When my dad killed a couple of older hens to eat once (only once, because my mother hates to eat their own birds) he put them in a cage for a couple of weeks to tenderize the tough muscles. They tasted great and weren't stringy at all. I think if you did it more naturally, you'd eat more males because can't have very many roosters or there's trouble (can't remember the rooster to hen ratio anymore.) Kind of like eating male lambs.

 

I've never found fresh enough store bought eggs to realize that they all start off orange and find it a bit hard to believe that the taste would be the same when the diet isn't; but I do know my parents eggs and those of a friend of mine who run around outdoors to their hearts' content, taste really, really good. I have had stale farm eggs (once, when I forgot about them) and they stayed orange. ANd they do eat a well rounded diet Their hens do get laying pellets, etc (but no animal byproducts), but also lots of greens and whatever insects, etc they peck themselves.

[Storm Bay]

Another "Other" here.

 

As most of you know, I'm allergic to basically every grain but rice. This makes eating rather expensive...right now a loaf of bread is $4.69 around here, and resources are very limited.

 

There is one tiny hole-in-the-wall natural foods store here that has massive catalogues from which they can order almost anything, and they have never failed to amaze me with their resourcefulness. It's because of this place and the Kroger down the street that my repertoire of recipes has expanded in recent years.

 

So I guess it was for medical reasons that I switched to organic...kicking and screaming. I actually haven't the money or the time to research our eating habits right now, but I hope someday I can use organics as part of a "program" to bring myself back to optimum health.

 

:001_smile:

 

 

Are you allergic to non-grains such as buckwheat (a fruit), quinoa & amaranth? I buy these in bulk from a coop in a neighbouring state and make my own baking from them. I buy organic whole buckwheat flour for just over a dollar a pound in 25 pound bags (although it just went up--it might be $1.20 per pound now). Also rice flour in bulk (plus corn meal, but you're allergic to that since it's a grain.)

[Reya]

I felt you made some pretty broad judgements against organics in your previous reply, but since there were nuggets of truth to much of what you said, I decided it wasn't essential to offer a rebuttal. However, the remark you make just above, about yolk color being dependent upon age, is incorrect and causes me to wonder what sources you are using to glean the information you are posting.

 

 

Why did I say that fresh chicken eggs are orange whether they're "free range" or cooped? Because I LIKE fresh chicken eggs, and whenever a friend had too many for her family to eat, I'd happily take them long after other friends got tired of the eggs! :-) Friend A had true yard birds. They foraged for themselves and were brought in only at night because of the coyotes. Friend B owned dogs, so her chickens stayed in a coop with no access to grass or insects. They were fed commercial chicken feed. You couldn't taste or see one bit of difference between the eggs of Friend A or B. When I asked if the birds were on a special diet because of how good BOTH sets of eggs tasted, Friend B just laughed and explained that they were fed the same thing that commercial egg-layers get, and the freshness was the difference. I discussed this in amazement with several other friends who had chickens, and they all agreed with Friend B and thought I was funny for asking. So if it's diet, then the chickens must have been getting a LOT more grass and bugs than she'd thought! :-) I wasn't making stuff up, though--I was speaking from actual experience.

 

I was joking by my first post--sorry that didn't come across! See, my great-grandma had chickens running around her property because she was an old country type. They were "yard birds," just like all the country people called them. They were "organically raised" mainly because they were left to fend and forage for themselves--because they would! It's kinda hilarious to have the new, fancy, up-market labels slapped on an old country hick way of raising chickens. So I was joking about how if you call a yard bird an "organically raised free-range chicken," you could charge five times as much for a tough, nasty old yard bird in a grocery store. That's not how commercial organic farms work, but the similarity's still there, and so's my amusement.

 

I think I wasn't clear by what I meant by yard birds. Typical "yard birds" today--that is, of a family who's raising chickens for their domestic (mainly egg) consumption only, not a commercial enterprise of ANY type--tend to be mixed meat/egg types. Often fancy chickens, too, if they're more pets and less practical. If you let your chickens hang around for a while, lay some eggs, and then kill them after a year of running around and laying eggs, they end up tough and nasty. If you treat them as meat birds, though, and kill them young, they're more tender. That isn't what yard birds are most often used for, though. They most often hit the pot after they stop laying well. (Of course, in the old days, egg-laying chickens were allowed to go broody to produce more layers, and most of the cocks were killed very young as broilers, and those at least were tender!)

 

The tenderest chickens are the ones who have moved around the least. That means very young--and caging is even better. Sort of like a veal/range-fed beef difference, for the two extremes between a very young and tender caged bird and an old, stringy hen. (I had a LOT of range-only beef when I was in Costa Rica. It was not organic, I don't think, but it was all tough and awful because the steers weren't finished with grain. It had a stronger flavor, yes, but it wasn't a very pleasant one. I'm quite bemused with people paying extra for non-corn-finished beef....)

 

The most recently developed strains of meat birds are kind of...well, gross. They do freak me out. They're bred for their efficiency of converting grain to meat, and they do that admirably, but otherwise...ew! I DO NOT want those in my yard, ever! There's nothing non-organic about selective breeding, though, of course!

 

There is NOTHING inherently better about organic methods over non-organic methods when you're talking about environmental impact. It's all about how you do it. It's JUST as easy to abuse organic fertilizers as it is to abuse inorganic fertilizers. "Organic" pest control methods have introduced some of the most devastating invasive species in the world. Crop rotation, for example, isn't non-inorganic. It's just plain good practice! There are things that are good practices, organic or not, and things that are bad practices, organic or not. Whether you're using rotted manure or a commercial nitrogen blend for fertilizer really makes very little difference in the runoff zones. What matters is HOW it's used.

 

I am very much frustrated with modern farming practices that ignore things like crop rotation, contouring to the land, crop-site matching, soild compaction, etc., etc. I don't think these are "organic" issues, though. I think they're land management issues. I hope this makes sense!

 

As to whether organic is better for people, it depends on what you mean. If you're talking about those who consume organic foods... Pesticides in the levels found in produce haven't been shown to cause harm to people. They might. But they haven't been shown to. The effects of produce washing are also quite substantial and shouldn't be overlooked! Even if there is some harm, the levels of pesticides on the edible parts of plants varies HUGELY from plant to plant, so spending money on organic apples makes a whole lot more sense than spending money on organic oranges, for instance. There are also, as another poster commented, possible health concerns with the natural defenses that some plants produce when under attack from insects--they are, after all, toxins and might hurt you just as surely as commercial pesticides!

 

And about hormones...well, while I was trying to get pregnant, I was concerned about hormones in cow's milk. I wondered if switching to organic would make a difference. I did some reseach and found out, though, that because conventional dairy farming artificially extends lactation in cows, there's actually a LOWER level of hormones in conventional versus organic cow's milk. We forget that the only sources of hormones in food aren't external, sometimes, I think! (I went entirely off dairy and was pregnant two months later after 4 years of trying. This was one of four major changes I made in my lifestyle.) Of course, whether people should be drinking cow's milk at all is another debate. :-) Still, you'd have to look at all possible sources of hormone exposure and find out what percentage could possibly come into the body through conventionally farmed food before thinking that going organic could make a positive difference--and that's after establishing harm at current exposure levels.

 

And as for nutrients? Pretty darned unlikely. If you're after nutrients, VERY fresh or canned are your best bets, with organic being a much, much smaller consideration.

 

As to whether it's better for farmers, well, organic mark-ups are HUGE. So farmers see unprecedented profits from organic farming. People are guilted into believing that they must buy this for their families to be good parents/to be health-aware/whatever, and so they sacrifice in other areas to make organic purchases. Meanwhile, many people simply opt out of the organic market, removing market pressures toward affordibility. Organic foods are the diamond engagement rings of the grocery store--people are trained to sacrifice to make the purchase work even though the prices are heavily inflated. So small farms, in particular, are able to succeed despite the inherent inefficiencies of a small scale operation.

 

As to whether it's better for humanity as a whole...well, the answer is that it's not likely to be. The more land devoted to high-priced organic farming, the less devoted to traditional farming, and global prices for basic commodity foods go up. Additionally, not only is organic high-end itself, but it takes more land to produce less food. THe conesquences of that can't be clearer. (Don't say that organic CAN produce more food in less space than traditional farming methods. I know it CAN! I'm talking about how real-world farmers do it, though.) This means less food to be exported to countries and higher prices for what's sent. Good for American farmers? Sure. Good for Sub-Saharan Africa? Not so much.

 

The very, very best way to get food, environmentally, fincancially, and health-wise, is to practice intensive gardening methods in an area of your own yard that would otherwise be given over to grass, using compost to fertilize it and trying to limit any pesticide use through good crop rotation, spacing, interplanting, etc. That, I'm all for. :-) There are hardly any drawbacks at all, if you enjoy it!

 

I'm just much more dubious about commercial organic farming--because of the economics, the environmental impact, and the health claims made about it. It seems like just another wishy-washy "green" label applied to something that doesn't really deserve it.

[Reya]

Are you allergic to non-grains such as buckwheat (a fruit), quinoa & amaranth? I buy these in bulk from a coop in a neighbouring state and make my own baking from them. I buy organic whole buckwheat flour for just over a dollar a pound in 25 pound bags (although it just went up--it might be $1.20 per pound now). Also rice flour in bulk (plus corn meal, but you're allergic to that since it's a grain.)

 

There are also some online bulk food places where you can get some pretty exotic "staples" that let you boost your starch repertoire quite a bit without wheat/rye (and corn and oatmeal? OUCH!).

[JudyJudyJudy]

We do the best we can. We can't afford all organic, so we buy the organic foods that we think are most important.

[Reya]

I haven't found that to be true at all.

 

We have a CSA share that includes heirloom chicken eggs every week. There is a world of differnce in the taste of those egss even when they've been in the fridge for a couple of weeks. They are definately more orange as well but there's a taste difference. We did a taste test comparing the 3 week old CSA eggs and the store-bought eggs and DH (who's the world's biggest skeptic) tasted a difference. It was odd. And it's been 6 months since I bought store eggs. Yuck.

 

And I've started buying local, farm raised and free ranging chicken. They are free because you have to drive slowly when you come into the farm or you might run someone over. They are killed as humanely as can be done and have a great life prior to their deaths. None of those chickens have been stringy. They have had a little more dark meat and I've noticed less grease in the pot when I make homemade chicken soup but that's basically the only difference. Oh, and they are usually a little smaller and there's no plastic-y smell to them.

 

 

If you make a soup, you won't notice a difference. That's what soup's for. :-) Old chickens! (I'm still teasing here!)

 

I was talking, specifically, about old chickens as "yard birds", BTW--joking about it. All old chickens are unsuitable for broiling, for instance. In conventional farming, old layers are usually processed into itty bitty pieces and put in various things, not serves in big pieces. A farmwife, though, would stew it!

 

I've honestly never had farm-fresh eggs last for more than three or four days in the fridge, so I can't comment on that! I gobble them up quite fast.

[Reya]

I've never found fresh enough store bought eggs to realize that they all start off orange and find it a bit hard to believe that the taste would be the same when the diet isn't; but I do know my parents eggs and those of a friend of mine who run around outdoors to their hearts' content, taste really, really good. I have had stale farm eggs (once, when I forgot about them) and they stayed orange. ANd they do eat a well rounded diet Their hens do get laying pellets, etc (but no animal byproducts), but also lots of greens and whatever insects, etc they peck themselves.

 

I guess that a...rural myth, I suppose, since it's not an urban legend...then! :-) I'd assumed that the difference was diet, but everyone so vehemently assured me that it was freshness that I took them at their words.

 

I don't have enough time and energy to be responsible for non-human creatures at this point or I'd have half a dozen birds. (We're zoned for it.) In a wheelbarrow coop, of course, where I could move them around. I'd love to have all those yummy, yummy eggs. I rarely eat store-bought eggs plain. Nowhere near as good.