Vent (long): Young child events, and parents who just don't care....

[abba12]

I enrolled my kids in little athletics this year. It's very popular in Australia, probably at a similar level to little league in America, but it's all your field events, high/long jump, sprints, shotput, javelin, etc. 

 

After two weeks, I'm almost ready to pull them out again.

 

They're in Tiny Tots, which is ages 3-5 (eldest just missed cut off for U6). So, the idea in tiny tots is that all parents are required to be present to help their children through the activities and maintain some sort of semblance of order, teach/coach the children on how to do the events as well as basics like staying in line, following directions, running behind people not across them, taking turns, the usual. The concept works fine, it's done in many clubs across the country, but I live in an area where it is.... particularly challenging for many social reasons. there are some rough neighbourhoods among some good ones, and this program is government sponsored for low income families, so a number of the participants are from those areas. 

 

The first week was bad, but I told myself, everyones just trying to get into the routine and learn how it works, it'll get better. But if anything, this week was worse. The group is very large, around 60 kids I'd say, but that should be ok because every child has a parent present as their own personal helper.

 

So we start with long jump to warm up.... and discover at least a half dozen parents are not present at all, but are instead off over the other side of the park. We begin, and DD1 is in line. I'm trying to teach her about keeping her place in line, not standing beside the next person, not dawdling behind, etc. But then the child in front of her's sister comes up and stands beside that child. Ok, fine, fair enough, the sisters want to go together. But then their two friends show up, and butt-in in front of my daughter as well, in full view of their parents. I grit my teeth and remind my daughter (who is well aware what's happening) that she just needs to make sure she's doing the right thing, and not to worry. Then, friends of the parents of these 4 children come over, with their two children, and TELL those two to join the line alongside the first 4. And suddenly my daughter, who is being very patient, has been pushed 5 spots back but isn't allowed to butt-in. This wouldn't be such a big deal, except that this group of 6 kids did it every time. They would muck around, play up, and then find the one child who was standing in line properly, usually half-way along by then, and butt in. 

 

And, one could ignore those kids, but, other parents saw this and decided 'well, the only way my kid will get a turn is if we push our way in like everyone else is doing.' and it becomes a free-for-all of parents pushing their children into the lines instead of taking them to the end. The leaders are up the front directing the actual jumping, they can't be down here supervising the actions of the other parents.

 

Ok, maybe I'm over-reacting because my child was upset that she was following the rules and no one else was...

 

As we move away from that event, I notice someone drinking a can of alcohol! I quietly report that one to the leader, as that's a safety and liability issue. 

 

Now it's time for the 3-event-rotation. And some guy is playing music on his iphone so loudly we can't hear the leader (the phone wasn't, you know, stereo loud, but the leader doesn't have a microphone or anything, it's all voice outside on a busy field). The leader asks him to turn it off, which he does, but he turns it back on as soon as we break into groups, so group leaders in his group have to yell to hear each other over the staticy noise coming from his pocket.

 

We split up into groups of about 20. Great, I thought, smaller groups to work with. Well, in our group of 20 there were 7 children who were constantly misbehaving. ONE of them had an active parent trying to deal with them, fine, no problem with that. Three of them had parents who were either absent or off talking far from the kids, because they were being entirely ignored. And the other three..... they were almost worse. They had the parents who would stand there and say, "susie, stop it. Susie come here. Susie leave it alone. Susie no, Susie, Susie stop" 15 times without moving to do ANYTHING about little miss susie who is preventing the rest of us from doing anything until she moves off the jumping mat. Every time it was little susies turn, we all stopped for 5 minutes while susies mum asked her to stop, over, and over, and over. At least with the children who's parents were absent one of us could gently go to the child, take their hand, and remove them from the situation. Generally, I NEVER scold or correct a child when their parent is present, but there was simply no choice in this situation. 

 

Meanwhile, my daughter is in tears because they're supposed to throw the balls at a target as close as they can, then when everyone has thrown they all go in and collect their balls. Except half a dozen kids need to go collect their balls the second they throw them. Ok, they're getting used to this, I understand that. Except we did about 10 throws, and by the end kids were just throwing the balls at other kids because as soon as one moved away from the target, another would throw and run, and another. Or there was little miss susie who decided the target looked like a good seat, and the echo of 'susie, stop that, come here please, susie, come to mummy' as the other kids just kept throwing balls at her because they were tired of waiting. Is it that hard to hold your child gently by the shoulders and say 'no, wait until everyone has a turn before you go get your ball'. 

 

Or the parachute, which my poor girl only got to run under twice, mostly because two girls, one of which was miss susie, decided they wanted to stand in the middle of the parachute and try to catch it instead, and my daughter understood that it was supposed to be one at a time and wouldn't just run through like some others were doing until the girls moved. 

 

Meanwhile, Mr can-of-alcohol has decided to light up a cigarette, which is illegal in places like schools and playgrounds where i live. An athletics field full of kids and dedicated to a childrens sports club (there's no adult events on the property) is, I'm fairly sure, covered by that law. Another parent asked him to put it out, but he lit one up again 15 minutes later, still on the field. 

 

Meanwhile, we have the situation still of some active parents pushing their kids into the lines 'so theyll get a turn'. Maybe that's the answer, maybe I need to just join in the free-for-all. One mum was alternating which line her child was in by which was shortest, during the RELAYS (it wasnt an organized race, just groups of 6-8, and some kids were switching by accident. But to switch on purpose?) She even had the nerve to tell my child to come switch lines because it was shorter, to which I said, no no DD1, you're on the red team remember, and got a nasty scowl from the lady.

 

The sprint went off, mostly without a hitch, I guess. There's not much parents can do to mess up a sprint. But by the end, when passing out the tickets, the parents are talking loudly to each other and the children can barely hear their names being called! The leader is yelling them out, and 3 or 4 parents, myself included, are repeating them for the children near us, but we are struggling and the kids have no idea what's going on. 

 

This is not the sort of event where families will be kicked out willy-nilly, and since it's a pay at the start of season thing, they wont be priced out of returning. I already noticed many of the quieter, more well behaved kids who were there week one didn't return for week two. The leader says it will settle down in a few weeks 'as the parents learn how it all works' but it's not a matter of parents learning how it works, it's a matter of parents not caring. 

 

I haven't had much experience with groups of average 3-5 year olds. My church is half homeschoolers, and most of our friends are homeschoolers, so this is particularly overwhelming for me. Is there any hope for this situation? Does it get better? Because both my daughter and I are have been near-tears both weeks. I really want her to do little athletics, I loved athletics as a kid, it's not a team sport which is a good thing judging by the kids I've met lately, and it's an event where there is a full progression to national level completely independent of any school teams, which makes it perfect for homeschoolers, and it's low cost at a very convenient time. There's a lot to like about it. But the other PARENTS seem almost impossible to deal with. At least as they age up the parents who don't care will sit to the side and the parents who do care will be leading the whole thing, and I know the dropout rate is a steep curve after about 2nd grade, and the ones left will have a genuine interest. But I just wanted to yell at people tonight.

 

Or maybe I'm totally overreacting. It's possible, I AM hormonal. I mean, I don't think I'm overreacting about the guy smoking/drinking, or the guy with the music, or the people too busy talking to each other to pay any attention to their kids misbehaving or just simply not knowing what to do (there was a lot of that too, kids who just didn't know where to go with no parent around to help them. I ended up with about three girls who began running directly to me for directions, and I never signed up to be a volunteer, I have two girls participating and a baby on the sidelines with DH)

 

I dunno.... how does everyone else navigate young-child activities when only a minority of kids and parents are actually listening and following directions? Am I in an unusually bad situation here, or is this normal and I'll just have to suck it up and teach my daughter that life isn't fair?

 

I thought about emailing the directors of the local club tonight, but, honestly, what can they do? This isn't a child problem, it's a parent problem, and they can only do so much to police the parents. Short of removing parents and only having volunteers run it (which they do not have the manpower to do) there's no easy solutions here. 

[Aiden]

That would drive me insane. I'm not sure I could handle that, either--we most likely would be some of the ones who just wouldn't come back, and maybe try it again after the steep dropoff in grade 2, or see if there was another league in a better area that we could join instead.

 

I guess it wouldn't be possible to increase the number of volunteers enough to have volunteers policing the parents, huh? Ideally, there would be volunteers who wouldn't necessarily be responsible for the kids, but who would do things like send the unattended child off to stand by the negligent parent (with the child welcome to participate when the parent comes back to the group to supervise).

 

At the very least, I'd start enforcing the standing-in-line rules myself, whether their parents were nearby or not: "No, little girl, you cannot break in line in front of my daughter so that you can stand with your friend. If you wanted to be with your friend, you should have gotten in line with her in the first place." Depending on the reactions of the other parents, that may lead to its own problems, though ...

 

I don't see any good solutions to this one. Ugh.

[abba12]

That would drive me insane. I'm not sure I could handle that, either--we most likely would be some of the ones who just wouldn't come back, and maybe try it again after the steep dropoff in grade 2, or see if there was another league in a better area that we could join instead.

 

I guess it wouldn't be possible to increase the number of volunteers enough to have volunteers policing the parents, huh? Ideally, there would be volunteers who wouldn't necessarily be responsible for the kids, but who would do things like send the unattended child off to stand by the negligent parent (with the child welcome to participate when the parent comes back to the group to supervise).

 

At the very least, I'd start enforcing the standing-in-line rules myself, whether their parents were nearby or not: "No, little girl, you cannot break in line in front of my daughter so that you can stand with your friend. If you wanted to be with your friend, you should have gotten in line with her in the first place." Depending on the reactions of the other parents, that may lead to its own problems, though ...

 

I don't see any good solutions to this one. Ugh.

 

The organization as a whole just doesn't really see it as a priority, as far as they're concerned they have 60 volunteers, in the form of 60 parents. I'm considering telling them otherwise, but, honestly... they struggle to get enough official volunteers for some of the senior events, they're not going to waste the few they have on non-competing pre-schoolers. And I can't volunteer myself since I have 3 of my own to chase. Plus, I think the 'official' volunteers have to do courses and stuff since it's a partially government funded group, unlike the usual parent helpers who help with whatever group their kid is in. The leader of Tiny Tots has sure done something, he is amazing with those kids, he just can't be everywhere at once.

 

I did begin enforcing the line up rules for children who's parents weren't present. But some of the kids outright looked at me, then ignored me..... sigh. If my kids acted the way some of those ones did they'd have been out for the night! Unfortunately, they've already learned there's no consequences from their parents, why would they worry about some stranger. Still, for others it did work, and I was able to guide some of the lost kids, so at least we got a bit of order towards the end of the night for those ones. I think a lot of parents finally understood halfway through week 2 that we would have no choice but to step in and parent the absent parents children, and quite a few did by the third event. That group will get easier quite quickly I think. 

[abba12]

Honestly, while the parents behavior is appalling, that sounds like way too large a group for that age level of kids. The parent-tyke activities we did when my kids were pre-school age were 6-10 kids.

 

All the age groups are run at the same time. Originally the tiny tots group was meant as something for the younger siblings of older participants to do. It's expanded since then. But, they do manage to pull it off in most clubs. I would assume if it was nothing but the size that there would have been complaints from clubs around the country, and it would have been modified or trashed years ago. The fact it's been running so long means it must work, to some extent, in most clubs doesn't it?

 

Come to think of it, the 3-5yo group in the park must be about 30 kids, and a similar format, and they pull it off. But that's less competitive I suppose. 

[UCF612]

That stinks. I hate when obnoxious people ruin a good thing. But it might be better to drop out this year and try again in an older age group. Maybe practice some skills at home so they don't come in totally out of it when they age up. I'm sorry it isn't working out, it sounds fun otherwise.

[MEmama]

It's fairly typical, unfortunately. I'd say yes, this is a good time to teach your kid that life's not fair and that even though the misbehaving/unsupervised kids get ahead in line it doesn't make them right. At nearly 6 I doubt this will be news to her.

 

I remember a few situations like that when my son was that age. Mostly it was due to the kids not being ready for the activity, like the kids laying down in the middle of the ice during hockey practice. It was dangerous and disruptive and frustrated my son to no end. He's a listener and rule follower and has utmost respect for good coaching and I remember many conversations addressing the injustice. But you know, it's life and if you want your child in that program she's going to have to find her happy place. Taking the high road may not be fair, but it is a lifelong skill and does pay off when it truly matters.

[Entropymama]

That sounds awful, but I wouldn't give up hope on your kids doing athletics. I assume that once they get out of that 3-5 range the parents are not involved? Maybe just wait until they're old enough to be in the upper levels, when there are coaches to take care of things instead of relying on parents. 

[Library Momma]

Usually in situations like that here there are specific volunteers running the show and while parents need to be present, they should not be involved.  They can be off to the side chatting, watching, smoking (ok not really smoking) but doing whatever works for them and the designated volunteers should be working with the kids.  Having each and every parent actively involved is a recipe for disaster.  they have no training or organization and it becomes a my kids first situation.

[JFSinIL]

With that many kids it sounds more like lessons in standing in line than a real sport.  I'd find something else to participate in.

[lmrich]

That sounds crazy! Absolutely crazy - everything about it.

[abba12]

With that many kids it sounds more like lessons in standing in line than a real sport.  I'd find something else to participate in.

 

Every school in Australia does athletics, and with much larger group sizes than here. Breaking off into groups of 20 per activity would be quite acceptable if it was working properly with the parents.  Sports day at school was easily a 40 or 50 child line for the long/high jumps. Yeah there's a lot of waiting in line in athletics, even in the olympics, that doesn't make it not a 'real' sport. 

[abba12]

That stinks. I hate when obnoxious people ruin a good thing. But it might be better to drop out this year and try again in an older age group. Maybe practice some skills at home so they don't come in totally out of it when they age up. I'm sorry it isn't working out, it sounds fun otherwise.

 

I really didn't want to drop out, the kids don't have many social outlets, I can't drive, and this was something we could do that DH could drive us to which would actually be worthwhile. Most things for this age group happen during work hours. 

 

It's fairly typical, unfortunately. I'd say yes, this is a good time to teach your kid that life's not fair and that even though the misbehaving/unsupervised kids get ahead in line it doesn't make them right. At nearly 6 I doubt this will be news to her.

 

I remember a few situations like that when my son was that age. Mostly it was due to the kids not being ready for the activity, like the kids laying down in the middle of the ice during hockey practice. It was dangerous and disruptive and frustrated my son to no end. He's a listener and rule follower and has utmost respect for good coaching and I remember many conversations addressing the injustice. But you know, it's life and if you want your child in that program she's going to have to find her happy place. Taking the high road may not be fair, but it is a lifelong skill and does pay off when it truly matters.

 

Yep, that's what it is, I think a number of these kids are just not ready for the activity, but their parents are putting them in anyway, ruining it for the rest. DD1 is quite perceptive and notices all this very quickly. She's frustrated by it. Glad to hear your son learned to enjoy his sport despite the others, it gives me some hope.

 

That sounds awful, but I wouldn't give up hope on your kids doing athletics. I assume that once they get out of that 3-5 range the parents are not involved? Maybe just wait until they're old enough to be in the upper levels, when there are coaches to take care of things instead of relying on parents. 

 

It goes from all parents to just a few parent helpers after 5, so it'll be better then. I guess I just really wanted a social outlet for the kids, they don't get to do much outside the house, and we don't have many friends their age.

 

Usually in situations like that here there are specific volunteers running the show and while parents need to be present, they should not be involved.  They can be off to the side chatting, watching, smoking (ok not really smoking) but doing whatever works for them and the designated volunteers should be working with the kids.  Having each and every parent actively involved is a recipe for disaster.  they have no training or organization and it becomes a my kids first situation.

 

Yeah, that's how it should be, I just don't think they have enough people for it. But it sounds like they want to move towards that with parent helpers as the year goes on, the kids getting used to what to do and needing less direct guidance as well. Maybe it'll be better mid-season when the kids get the hang of things a bit more. 

[Ausmumof3]

3-5 is a young age group to have massive groups and heaps of line waiting, though those parents were obviously rude. We've dealt with frustrations at activities. I think I paid for a term of swimming lessons for dd where she didn't learn much because 50pc of the lesson was spent managing one kid who cried and refused to do everything.

[Reefgazer]

Time for a different program.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Why can't you just go at an off time and do field work of your own?  You kids would have fun doing long jumps, sprinting, hitting a target etc. but without all the chaos.  We did it on our own and had a great time.  I know you talked about this being a social outlet but. . .  it isn't.  It doesn't sound like there is any real chance of meaningful social interaction in all of that.  

[MistyMountain]

60 kids in that age group is too chaotic. My ds did soccer this summer with that age group mixed in and it was pretty chaotic with kids not following directions well. The parents were not directly involved but it was a much smaller ratio. It did get better when the youngest kid who just was not ready yet dropped out and the other kids got to know the routine. I do not see the situation you describe getting better because there is not enough leaders for that group size and the parents are making it worse not better. Maybe breaking it off into groups and asking for parent volunteers to help but then the other parents can sit on the side and chat would help.

[Carol in Cal.]

I'd stop and reevaluate my goals at this point.

 

First of all, standing in line and being polite are things that kids can learn later.  So I wouldn't set that as a goal at this age.

 

Secondly, you are not meeting people you want to hang out with.  So social life is not a realizable goal here either.

 

Thirdly, your daughter is not substantially increasing her physical fitness in this exercise.  So healthy exercise is not happening.

 

Fourthly, your daughter is out in the sun and fresh air with you.  Is it quality time on any level?  Are you the kind of person who would be able to force yourself to go outside with your child as often as this group is held, and just run around, without a scheduled activity to make you do so?  If so, do that.  If not, I would say, keep on going but look for another family to enjoy; OR plan a regular activity group that hikes or runs around outdoors or something like that and advertise it in your local homeschooling circles.  You can try this other group again next year.

[Carol in Cal.]

PS I had a similar situation when DD was a toddler.  There was this one kid who kept attacking her, and fairly seriously.  His mother did nothing at all about it.  (And BTW, she was one of the wealthier of the families.  Hands off, irresponsible parenting is not a function of income here as much as in some places.)  I just waded in and started to manage him.

 

I would smile at him but get in between him and a kid he was hitting, and say, "I'm not going to allow you to hurt him." or "People are special.  We don't hurt people."  I vaguely hoped that this would set a good example to his mother, but instead she commented to other mothers approvingly on how well I could manage her son.  Sigh. 

 

I was willing to do this because the other moms were people I really liked, actually including this kid's mom, and I felt that it was worth it to be able to feel good about hanging out with them.  But after a while I realized that I was pretty much taking DD to a place where she wanted to hang out with me and play, but couldn't because I was so busy keeping other people's children out of trouble, and I started to attend less often. When the moms started having 'Mom's Night Out' monthly, I started to attend that regularly but not the playgroup as often. 

 

Bottom line:  hands off parents usually stay that way.  If the system relies on them, then you have to find likeminded parents or it will all fall apart.

[Katy]

Do you know some of the kids that dropped out after week one?  Can you start your own group with them?  Then you get the fun of the group without the negative influence.

 

I don't want to get into specifics here, but our church youth activities have become similarly chaotic after a local outreach and now some kids don't want to go to church at all.

[shinyhappypeople]

I'd wait it out a few weeks and see if the numbers dwindle. 

 

Of course, I'm also not above policing unsupervised kids. I've done it before, I'd do it again.  It's not my favorite thing, but sometimes it's necessary.   I'd tell the line-cutters "No cutting.  Go to the back of the line."  Period.  

 

Also, why did no one politely tell Susie's mom to go get her?  As in, "Please go take your daughter's hand and lead her to the side.  It's another child's turn."  It's not rude to be assertive. 

 

 

[Guest]

I'd stop and reevaluate my goals at this point.

 

First of all, standing in line and being polite are things that kids can learn later.  So I wouldn't set that as a goal at this age.

 

Secondly, you are not meeting people you want to hang out with.  So social life is not a realizable goal here either.

 

Thirdly, your daughter is not substantially increasing her physical fitness in this exercise.  So healthy exercise is not happening.

 

Fourthly, your daughter is out in the sun and fresh air with you.  Is it quality time on any level?  Are you the kind of person who would be able to force yourself to go outside with your child as often as this group is held, and just run around, without a scheduled activity to make you do so?  If so, do that.  If not, I would say, keep on going but look for another family to enjoy; OR plan a regular activity group that hikes or runs around outdoors or something like that and advertise it in your local homeschooling circles.  You can try this other group again next year.

 

All this.

 

I'd drop out because it's not accomplishing anything its supposed to accomplish. Shame on the leaders for not insisting the parents do what they agreed to do, but if that's how they all want to handle things, I don't see how you could stomach having days like that more than once! It drove me crazy when my kids were made to follow (extremely standard//non-onerous) rules and everyone around them flaunted them. At that age--they don't really understand that they are the lucky ones in that situation.

[Tanaqui]

Every school in Australia does athletics, and with much larger group sizes than here. Breaking off into groups of 20 per activity would be quite acceptable if it was working properly with the parents.  Sports day at school was easily a 40 or 50 child line for the long/high jumps. Yeah there's a lot of waiting in line in athletics, even in the olympics, that doesn't make it not a 'real' sport. 

 

No, but it's less than ideal for a practice, where you want to spend as much time as possible being active rather than standing around.

[mathnerd]

I have dropped out of many such situations in the past - in our case, mostly parents are the "drop off and run away" types who don't show up for activities that are volunteer run. Especially when the volunteering workload fell on the few conscientious parents - but, I have mostly stayed on for the season because of worries that if I were to quit, there would be no one else stepping in to take over my volunteering position. I am never happy to involve my kids in a sport or group which is filled with people who do not think that it is their responsibility to contribute when asked and who teach their kids that it is acceptable to behave that way.

 

OP, I would quit if I were you. I would either form my own group or look for other activities like swimming or biking.

[Sun]

After reading that, my only question is why do you have any thoughts at all about going back?

[idnib]

Well my jaws are clenched just reading this.

 

I would do my own exercise program and check it out again after the winnowing in 2nd grade.

[shinyhappypeople]

I think when opportunities are limited for whatever reason, it makes sense to work very hard to try to make situations work (or at least work a bit better).

 

Abba, is there any way you could call the leader before next time and brainstorm ways to help things run smoother?

 

I wonder if the leader would be able to find 3 willing parents to serve as group leaders. At the beginning of each new activity she double checks that every kid in her group has a grown up. Kids without a grown up have to step aside and wait for mom or dad to come over. It's not being mean. It's teaching the parents acceptable behavior and is a not-so-subtle reminder that when parents flake it's the kids who suffer.

 

Remember, we teach people how to treat us. The flaky parents have been taught that their behavior is okay. Time for a new lesson, IF the leader is willing to make a few sm small tweaks.

[Tsuga]

 

 

The group is very large, around 60 kids I'd say,

 

The group is too large. Period. In a group that large you WILL get people screwing it up. Follow the 1/20 rule. One out of twenty is going to be a screw up. You can expect three major screw ups in your group. That's not science, that's just my personal experience. There's a reason you can only get a 95% confidence interval. There's always that one.  :lol:

 

I would pull my kid. I don't think anything that is a 1:60 leader:participant ratio is worth a single penny (I will just get agitated by the screw-ups, i.e. Mr. Smoke and Drink, Ms. Here Kids Cut In Line, and so on), and I don't think it sounds like your kid will get much time doing anything.

 

I also think that at <5 years old, the kid doesn't need this level of social interaction. I mean, she DOES need interaction, but not institutionalized mob interaction. There's nothing wrong with standing line but spending over 50% of the time mobbing or being mobbed is absurd.

 

I would be fine with many of the other suggestions, but with SIXTY kids, you'll drive yourself nuts trying to improve this.

 

I'd look for a different option even if it cost more, and otherwise, set up my own park playgroup.

 

Try again at 7 or so, when the group is smaller.

 

 

[AmandaVT]

That would make me batty. For the line cutting, at that age,  I've told the other kids that "this is DS's spot in line - go find your mommy or daddy and they'll help you find your spot, but you may not stand in front of DS". 

 

I probably wouldn't stay with the group being that big and that unorganized, honestly. Parents around here are giant pains in the rear a lot of the time. I ended up waiting until DS was old enough to be in tennis and he plays twice a week with coaches who do a great job of organizing and keeping the kids busy and parents are behind a large glass wall and can't interfere. :-)

[Word Nerd]

Sorry. I stopped reading, but I read enough to think nope! I wouldn't go back.

[Trish]

My brothers and I used to do all our Olympic events on our lawn, using stuff from the garage to mark things off.

 

Adults were not welcome.