S/O Gun control

[DesertBlossom]

I hear you, but I still disagree. I used the word pervasive, but it is not strong enough. Americans are incapable of rational, informed discussions about guns.

 

I have written and erased may sentences about the NRA. Let me just try: if we had a healthier culture with regard to guns, we'd see the NRA more clearly and differently.

 

I see this from a different perspective. I know a lot of people who have a "healthy culture" surrounding guns. They are used for sport, hunting or self-defense. When we were dating, DH was super impressed at my clay shooting skills. ;)

 

We don't have a gun culture problem. We have a violence problem. And a mental health problem. I see gun violence as a symptom of a much larger problem.  Families and relationships have broken down, violence is glorified and people think more about themselves than others.  

[Carol in Cal.]

If we had a healthier culture with respect to guns, people would not shoot each other with them.  Full stop.

[Tsuga]

I wonder why nobody ever talks about the knife culture or the car culture in the USA.  Always the "gun culture."  The people I know who have guns use their cars and knives a lot more often than they use their guns.

 

People talk about car culture in the USA all the time. All the time! It's a huge issue in public transport.

 

Most knives are cooking knives and very few people use them for weapons because there are so many guns. So I would say we don't actually have a knife culture. People don't cook enough to call it a "knife culture" and certainly they are not using knives as weapons frequently enough to talk about a knife culture.

 

We do talk about a death culture.

 

We talk about a screen culture.

 

People talk about an entitled culture.

 

So I think you're wrong that we've singled out guns as one place to put the blame on culture. Car culture in particular--I have to wonder why you chose that term. Maybe working in the public sector and in a city that is in the throes of a transport upheaval / crisis, but I probably hear that mentioned several times a week.

[Joanne]

Fifty percent of adults are now on some form of psychiatric medication. We are a society of mental illness. Mental illness is now diagnosed regularly in 3 year olds. Until we are no longer mentally incompetent, or at least quit making people think they are mentally incompetent, it is too early to discuss the weapon, in my opinion.

 

Can you provide some reputable data to back up those assertions?

 

They are pretty bold. And as a professional in the industry, my observations do not line up with those statements.

 

[Butter]

I see this from a different perspective. I know a lot of people who have a "healthy culture" surrounding guns. They are used for sport, hunting or self-defense. When we were dating, DH was super impressed at my clay shooting skills. ;)

 

We don't have a gun culture problem. We have a violence problem. And a mental health problem. I see gun violence as a symptom of a much larger problem.  Families and relationships have broken down, violence is glorified and people think more about themselves than others.  

 

I agree with you.  Years ago, before I was born, my grandparents and a couple of their sons ran a skeet shooting range on their farm.  Neighbors would show up with their guns, pay a fee, and do whatever it is you do when you shoot skeet.  Everyone had guns.  It was a rural area and those guns were used, mostly, for hunting and feeding their families.  Those guns weren't locked up.  They were up on the walls or leaning against them.  But mass shootings - and even non-mass shootings - just weren't so common way back then.  Something has changed and it's not just the guns.

[Joanne]

I see this from a different perspective. I know a lot of people who have a "healthy culture" surrounding guns. They are used for sport, hunting or self-defense. When we were dating, DH was super impressed at my clay shooting skills. ;)

 

We don't have a gun culture problem. We have a violence problem. And a mental health problem. I see gun violence as a symptom of a much larger problem.  Families and relationships have broken down, violence is glorified and people think more about themselves than others.  

 

Paragraph one is an example of my assertion. (Many) Other countries and cultures don't assume that sport, recreational hunting, and guns as self defense are a "given" or healthy.

[SKL]

Most knives are cooking knives and very few people use them for weapons because there are so many guns. So I would say we don't actually have a knife culture. People don't cook enough to call it a "knife culture" and certainly they are not using knives as weapons frequently enough to talk about a knife culture.

 

 

Well if that is the case, the average gun owner certainly doesn't use guns as weapons frequently enough to talk about a gun culture.

 

Well, maybe I should specify that the "gun culture" I grew up around was the culture where guns are used for legal purposes.  (That would be the majority of gun owners in the USA.)  Maybe there's a totally separate "gun culture" where people generally use guns for illegal purposes.  The cultures are so different that they cannot be called by the same name.

 

[6packofun]

I really don't think you can compare traffic laws or child-proof lids with gun laws. I think a better comparison are drug laws. Drugs are illegal. Drugs ruin lives and kill people. And you can get them everywhere. 

 

 

 

Right. Many people believe that making drugs legal (yes, mainly pot) will suddenly destroy the black market for that drug.  Guns are legal and how's that black market going?  Once again, the issue at the heart is an individual's greed or hatred or insanity.

[Pawz4me]

I have sworn to uphold the U.S. Constitution and find it alarming when citizens just want to give up their rights (and mine) so they can feel safer.

 

Supporting stricter, more effective gun control doesn't necessarily equal giving up rights.

[J-rap]

I agree that it isn't more guns that have changed our culture here.  But the culture has changed, and maybe stricter gun laws need to be put in place as a result, to help control the situation while we figure out what else is going on. 

[Anne in CA]

Many of these weapons have been purchased legally. In my state gun show purchases are done without background checks. I believe that's how the VT shooter got his weapons. The Sandyhook guns were purchased legally. Lately when I see these stories there is a follow up on where the guns were obtained and most often it seems they were legal purchases.

 

I don't think a blanket statement can be made that mass shooters get weapons illegally.

I agree that a blanket statement cannot be made, however the Columbine shootings were made with guns illegally purchased, and the young men who did that shooting should have been in federal prison at the time. Their records had been illegally expunged. That is an example of too many chances given to young men who were clearly determined to be criminals. The Columbine shooting could have easily been prevented if law enforcement had done their job. They had been threatening to kill a woman for two years before the shooting and police not only looked the other way and blamed their victim but the drestroyed all records of the calls the woman had made to law enforcement over the years and threatened to imprison HER if she gave press statements.

 

Kip Kinkle shot up a school with guns registered to his law abiding father. Again, there was every indication he was seriously disturbed but his parents chose to indulge his interest in weaponry.

 

I do not think any of the mass shooting that occur happen in a vacuum. I think there was a lot of warning in most of these cases but family and law enforcement choose to ignore the obvious. In cases where the family knew something was wrong they had a hard time getting legitimate mental health help.

 

I am pretty sure some of these shootings could be prevented with reasonable mental health help. We are just not valuing that enough in our culture.

[6packofun]

One thing I've always wondered... Are the gun control laws we already have on the books being enforced?  Do we need more laws or do we need to actually enforce the ones we already have?

 

Excellent point.  

 

These groups of people are not permitted to even possess a gun:

• Persons under indictment for, or convicted of, any crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding on year;
• Fugitives from justice;
• Persons who are unlawful users of, or addicted to, any controlled substance;
• Persons who have been declared by a court as mental defectives or have been committed to a mental institution;
• Illegal aliens, or aliens who were admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa;
• Persons who have been dishonorably discharged from the Armed Forces;
• Persons who have renounced their United States citizenship;
• Persons subject to certain types of restraining orders; and
• Persons who have been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

 and this is just federal law, too, while states all have their different rules (which is a huge part of the problem, IMO).  Noticing these groups that cannot have guns, though, I wonder how often a person who owns a gun BECOMES one of those who cannot own guns and there exists no way to quickly ascertain if they have one and then go GET IT out of their possession.  Lots of circumstances fall through the cracks.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

We don't have a gun culture problem. We have a violence problem. And a mental health problem. I see gun violence as a symptom of a much larger problem.  Families and relationships have broken down, violence is glorified and people think more about themselves than others.  

 

Yet we don't see this behavior to the same degree in other western nations.  There are other factors at play and I don't believe there is any evidence it is because "families" have broken down.

[DesertBlossom]

Right. Many people believe that making drugs legal (yes, mainly pot) will suddenly destroy the black market for that drug.  Guns are legal and how's that black market going?  Once again, the issue at the heart is an individual's greed or hatred or insanity.

 

There is a black market for guns because convicted criminals are not allowed to legally purchase guns. So they get them illegally.  My point was that laws don't really deter people from doing things. 

[Joanne]

I see this from a different perspective. I know a lot of people who have a "healthy culture" surrounding guns. They are used for sport, hunting or self-defense. When we were dating, DH was super impressed at my clay shooting skills. ;)

 

We don't have a gun culture problem. We have a violence problem. And a mental health problem. I see gun violence as a symptom of a much larger problem.  Families and relationships have broken down, violence is glorified and people think more about themselves than others.  

 

The bold is 1) conflating issues and 2) vague and not quantifiable.

 

What is meant by "families and relationships have broken down" and "violence is glorified" and "people think more about themselves than others."

 

Mass killings in the US is a major and troubling issue - one that deserves better than trite bullet points used to float additional political agenda.

 

 

[ktgrok]

I think the answer is in the idea of "a well regulated militia". Right now we just have guns. We don't have "well regulated" at all. 

 

I think the ideal would be for all gunsowners to need to be part of a regulated group with regular meetings, rules, trainings, etc. Basically a civilian version of the National Guard. If you dont' want to put that much effort into it then fine, don't have a gun. But the 2nd ammendment isn't about protecting your home from robbery, it's about a freaking militia to defend the people against the government. If you want to preach 2nd ammendment  to the rooftops, feel free. But remember that part about well regulated militia. 

 

My hope is that if you are showing up to regular trainings, passing a pysch test maybe, etc you would get noticed if you were a freaking pyschopath and reported before you did harm. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Fifty percent of adults are now on some form of psychiatric medication. We are a society of mental illness. Mental illness is now diagnosed regularly in 3 year olds. Until we are no longer mentally incompetent, or at least quit making people think they are mentally incompetent, it is too early to discuss the weapon, in my opinion.

 

Where do you get the 50% figure?

 

And plenty of people with a mental illness would not shoot someone.

[QueenCat]

Fifty percent of adults are now on some form of psychiatric medication. We are a society of mental illness. Mental illness is now diagnosed regularly in 3 year olds. Until we are no longer mentally incompetent, or at least quit making people think they are mentally incompetent, it is too early to discuss the weapon, in my opinion.

 

I find 50% hard to believe............ quick google search is showing 1 in 5 adults have some type of mental illness, so why would 50% be on meds? I do agree with much of what you wrote though, just question the 50%.

[EmseB]

Paragraph one is an example of my assertion. (Many) Other countries and cultures don't assume that sport, recreational hunting, and guns as self defense are a "given" or healthy.

 

Some do, though, and the U.S. is not the only one.  What is wrong with using guns for sports, hunting, or self-defense?  Why is that unhealthy?

 

 

 

 

Unrelated to Joanne's post, the things I keep tossing around in my mind is this:  What law, short of banning all guns, would have prevented what happened in Oregon?  What law is a person who has no qualms about shooting a bunch of people going to obey?

[Murphy101]

Though we do not own guns, we are what many would consider avid gun rights advocates.

 

In the spirit of discussion, this is what we think reasoned regulation might include:

 

Background checks at least every 10 years

 

Safety and gun rights class(es) when a gun permit is given AND when a gun is purchased AND a refresher course at least every 10 years

 

I do think mental illness is a problem, but the biggest problem is people ignoring it.

 

For example, the Sandy Hook boy would not have had access to a gun if his mother had followed the law in my state. If anyone in the home has a mental illness, they are not supposed to keep guns in the home, permit or not, in my state.

 

I'm not sure how one can enforce that. Mental illness can vary over time, sometimes suddenly. And one person might not know about another's bc of medical privacy. For example, a 20 yr old college student could have mental illness dx and be under treatment, but their parents might not know that unless he were to tell them. Sure, one would hope they would at least know he was struggling, but there's a vast gap between a college kid sure does seem to be an extra pita these day to suicidal or could go on a killing spree" and that's not even contemplating the very real problem of terrorist recruiting. And often, things seem to change quickly. I imagine there is a lot of hindsight and sudden desperate grappling to get a handle on things.

 

And I can think of no ethical way to mandate mental illness treatment either. I don't want to have a country where we mandate mental illnesses registries of some kind or having someone reported could mean they are hauled away and forced to accepted whatever treatments others deem best for them. Let's remember, some of these shooters actually were under mental health care. And "signs" that they could kill someone does sound like a quick skip to removing rights on presumption of future crime.

 

So idk how to handle the mental illness aspect.

 

But no, not everyone who is an advocate of gun rights is against any and all legislation.

[EmseB]

For the record, the Oregon guy's guns were all purchased legally.  He passed the background checks. 

 

So, short of an outright ban, what law do we pass to prevent someone who wants to shoot up a mall, or a community college, or a school from getting guns?  Keep in mind they are willing to break the law that says it's illegal to kill a bunch of unarmed, innocent people.

[TranquilMind]

Can we have a discussion without nastiness? If not, I'll turn this car around and we'll go straight home!

 

I know people who think the solution to mass shootings is to arm everyone. I know people who think the solution is the destruction of all guns. Neither of these are a real solution.

 

Is there a middle-of-the-road solution? Is there a way to preserve gun rights while protecting the citizens? Is the horse already out of the barn?? Without collecting all the guns, won't bad guys always be able to get their hands on them? What does effective gun control look like??

Laughed at the "I'll turn this car around" comment.

 

Bad guys will always be able to obtain guns, particularly if we disarm all citizens.  That is the worst possible thing we can do.  It is much safer for a criminal not to know if he will be challenged than to be sure he will be the only armed person around until the police come. 

 

Criminals just laugh when stronger controls are mentioned.  They are outside of controls, so it makes no difference.  They get them on the street.  You won't be able to stop this. 

 

The problem is the wholesale drugging of young America.  Just like the side effects warn, these people are snapping left and right.  This latest shooter was posting in some forum about lithium, according to the media.

How about we stop drugging everyone for every little thing and see if that helps? 

[TranquilMind]

Some do, though, and the U.S. is not the only one.  What is wrong with using guns for sports, hunting, or self-defense?  Why is that unhealthy?

 

 

 

 

Unrelated to Joanne's post, the things I keep tossing around in my mind is this:  What law, short of banning all guns, would have prevented what happened in Oregon?  What law is a person who has no qualms about shooting a bunch of people going to obey?

Good question.

[Tsuga]

I agree with you.  Years ago, before I was born, my grandparents and a couple of their sons ran a skeet shooting range on their farm.  Neighbors would show up with their guns, pay a fee, and do whatever it is you do when you shoot skeet.  Everyone had guns.  It was a rural area and those guns were used, mostly, for hunting and feeding their families.  Those guns weren't locked up.  They were up on the walls or leaning against them.  But mass shootings - and even non-mass shootings - just weren't so common way back then.  Something has changed and it's not just the guns.

 

Actually, I'm not sure this assessment is correct. I mean, they weren't so common, but the population was smaller. Also, nobody was counting lynchings and the genocide of the native peoples (American-Indian wars) as "mass killings". America has been a violent place for a long time.

 

Your grandparents may not have witnessed a mass shooting, but that doesn't mean the  mass shooting prevalence was lower. It just means it didn't happen there and what did happen, was not prominent in their minds. Maybe that day it was in the newspaper but they had a kid's birthday party to deal with.

 

http://news.discovery.com/history/mass-shootings-history-121220.htm

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/06/thugs-and-terrorists-have-plagued-black-churches-for-generations/396212/

 

Mass shootings are on the rise but crime was also on the rise in the 1960s. The fact is, young people commit more crimes and are particularly dangerous in late adolescence before they are diagnosed with mental illness. There's a particular age range that is not conducive to civil behavior and though the population as a whole is getting older, we do get bumps.

 

I would also like to link to this guy's fabulous treatment of whether more guns = more shootings:

 

http://www.charlespetzold.com/blog/2015/07/De-Obfuscating-the-Statistics-of-Mass-Shootings.html

 

It includes this plot:

 

 

 

I won't summarize it because you should really read it.

 

Another interesting chart showing murder rates over time:

 

http://violentdeathproject.com/countries/united-states

 

 

I am pretty sure they didn't include Indian deaths in this chart because the Census Bureau didn't count them:

 

From Wiki: "The Census Bureau in 1894 counted over 40 wars during the 57 years between 1789 and 1846, which killed 19,000 whites and about 30,000 Indians however it did note that the number of Indians killed must be very much higher than this count."

 

:(

 

He also notes that white-on-black killing was massively underreported after the Civil War in some areas where slavery was particularly valued.

 

Still, the kill-your-neighbor variety of violence seems to be lower now than when my mom was growing up, and even lower than when my grandmother was growing up.

 

Note this is a manslaughter rate, not gun death rate.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah more regulation and laws usually just means controlling the law abiding citizens.  Those willing to break laws don't care about more laws.  Kinda like the TSA stuff.  Because some bone head wore sneakers with a failed explosive device we now all have to go through the goofy procedure of removing our shoes. 

 

I do think it is a little too easy to get a gun though.  But then if they can be gotten illegally, what difference does it make?

 

I am not pro gun, but I really have no clue what the answer is. 

[Tsuga]

For the record, the Oregon guy's guns were all purchased legally.  He passed the background checks. 

 

So, short of an outright ban, what law do we pass to prevent someone who wants to shoot up a mall, or a community college, or a school from getting guns?  Keep in mind they are willing to break the law that says it's illegal to kill a bunch of unarmed, innocent people.

 

Wouldn't this be in favor of an argument that the background checks were insufficient?

[SpecialClassical]

I hear you, but I still disagree. I used the word pervasive, but it is not strong enough. Americans are incapable of rational, informed discussions about guns.

 

I have written and erased may sentences about the NRA. Let me just try: if we had a healthier culture with regard to guns, we'd see the NRA more clearly and differently.

"Americans are incapable of rational, informed discussions.." That is Not only insulting, it is a gross generalization of our population.

[Guest]

Wouldn't this be in favor of an argument that the background checks were insufficient?

Is that the answer? Are our backgrounds checks not asking the right questions?

[8circles]

I think we need to better define what "gun culture" means.  I don't think it means just allowing people to have them.  It doesn't mean supporting the 2nd amendment.  

 

I really like ktgrok's post about "well-regulated" never being addressed.

 

I think we can improve our "gun culture" while still allowing use for sport & hunting & in some cases, even for self-defense.  But lets not kid ourserlves that the acceptance of private citizens, not only owning, but carrying weapons - sometimes concealed, sometimes openly - and the idea that private citizens should own guns JUST IN CASE because you never know when a madman will start shooting up your church or school and you'll be damned if you'll let that happen... I mean, it's more than just citizens owning guns as part of a well-regulated militia to protect against government tyranny now, isn't it?

 

I'm sure what I'm going to say next will offend people but I can't help it.  

Where I live there is concealed-carry allowed.  I know a few people who do (and I'm sure there are several who do & I don't know) & I am so disturbed by the idea that these idiot, macho, rambo wannabees are bringing weapons to church, the movie theater, the grocery store - & their wives (who don't otherwise fit the profile of demure, submissives) look at them like "Oh, my hero!  If someone starts shooting me my big, strong husband will save the day! {{swoon}}" as he confidently pats the location of the hidden gun.  BARF!!!!!  These are also people who thought the curious incidents of 2 handguns left in public bathrooms & accessible to children are funny & not a problem, because nobody got hurt.  

 

I mean seriously, I don't know what to say.  The gulf between my view & that of the gun-lovers is so wide & deep, I feel it's essentially hopeless.

[Tsuga]

I agree with most of this.  I do believe most Americans would, too.  The NRA doesn't really speak for most gun owners.  My dad is a life member of the NRA (membership purchased like 50 years ago) and he would agree with most of what you wrote above.

 

There are some people who, for various reasons, need to protect themselves against violence, and they should be allowed to carry provided they meet sensible requirements.  Well trained, good shot, mentally healthy, etc.  They should be allowed to cc, and I'm sure some % of the people I deal with daily are doing just that without anyone knowing.

 

I think it's OK to keep a gun at home if you are super careful about following safety protocols.  That said, I don't have one and am in no hurry to get one.  But my kids have been taught (and will continue to be taught) about gun safety in case they ever come across one.

 

I know! I know NRA members who believe the same things, but then I'm like... why do you give the NRA money to lobby against common sense? It's because they believe that most liberals would ban guns entirely if the NRA weren't lobbying in the polar opposite direction.

 

The frustrating thing is, that most of us agree, but it is hysterical people running the place. 

[Murphy101]

Wouldn't this be in favor of an argument that the background checks were insufficient?

Not necessarily.

 

It would depend on what his background included.

 

For example, unless you are declared mentally unfit by the courts at some point, your medical situation will not show up on a background check at all.

 

Are you proposing that having medical records made public record?

[SKL]

 

I think we can improve our "gun culture" while still allowing use for sport & hunting & in some cases, even for self-defense.  But lets not kid ourserlves that the acceptance of private citizens, not only owning, but carrying weapons - sometimes concealed, sometimes openly - and the idea that private citizens should own guns JUST IN CASE because you never know when a madman will start shooting up your church or school and you'll be damned if you'll let that happen... I mean, it's more than just citizens owning guns as part of a well-regulated militia to protect against government tyranny now, isn't it?

 

 

That kind of thinking has nothing to do with the gun culture I grew up in and that still exists in my area.

 

[SKL]

I know! I know NRA members who believe the same things, but then I'm like... why do you give the NRA money to lobby against common sense? It's because they believe that most liberals would ban guns entirely if the NRA weren't lobbying in the polar opposite direction.

 

The frustrating thing is, that most of us agree, but it is hysterical people running the place. 

 

Well in my dad's case, it was a one-time payment that my mom made for my dad's birthday many, many years ago.  He would never send them money today or in recent decades.  He told me long ago of his disappointment with the way that organization has gone.

 

I don't think there are very many people sending money to the NRA these days.  Yes, there are some, mainly because there aren't too many other lobbying groups fighting against gun bans.  When it's either sweeping, indiscriminate gun bans or the NRA, the choice just stinks.

[8circles]

That kind of thinking has nothing to do with the gun culture I grew up in and that still exists in my area.

 

 

It is rampant here & also seems to be elsewhere if FB posts of my friends in other locations is any indication.

[Murphy101]

Well regulated is tricky stuff...

 

If it is regulated by the govt, then it's not much of a deterrent to that govt by default, which was the entire point.

 

But when citizens gather together to self regulate and form militias, the government loses it's freakin mind and treats them like crazies and puts them on watch lists and such.

 

And I would not even slightly bank on a regular gathering seeing someone was nuts. Because nuts tend to cluster together. Birds of a feather flocking.

 

So it's not that I'm unwilling to address the concept of well regulated. It's just that I thought her proposed view if it mildly odd to me. I suppose if each state had it, that'd be interesting to see. Not the national guard, but the state guard so to speak? Hmm. I wonder how friendly the Feds would be to each state having and maintaining its own military without any federal say or interference? Just mostly thinking out loud rambling... Sorry.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Is that the answer? Are our backgrounds checks not asking the right questions?

 

Background checks can only review what is on record.  You can use them to screen out those with a criminal/violent past, but they cannot be considered a predictor of future behavior.

[Murphy101]

It is rampant here & also seems to be elsewhere if FB posts of my friends in other locations is any indication.

Well if you say so, then I guess it is.

 

Even at the shooting range, I don't know anyone like that.

 

That said...

 

It seems contrary to complain about this bc many people in this thread are talking like mass shootings are commonplace when it isn't anywhere near commonplace.

 

But if the people in your community are also taking like mass shootings are commonplace, then it does make some sense that some of those people are also going to want to take steps to make themselves feel safer from a mass shooting.

[Joanne]

Some do, though, and the U.S. is not the only one.  What is wrong with using guns for sports, hunting, or self-defense?  Why is that unhealthy?

 

 

 

 

Unrelated to Joanne's post, the things I keep tossing around in my mind is this:  What law, short of banning all guns, would have prevented what happened in Oregon?  What law is a person who has no qualms about shooting a bunch of people going to obey?

 

I said that the gun culture is unhealthy - and so deeply entrenched and institutionalized that we don't see it or its effects accurately.

 

The gun culture is such that the *premise* is that recreational of guns use is normal, ok, and healthy.

[Joanne]

"Americans are incapable of rational, informed discussions.." That is Not only insulting, it is a gross generalization of our population.

 

I stand by it with regard to guns - due to the gun culture.

 

Your cut of my quote is not in context.

 

This conversation is an example. It is predictable and cliche. Limited "self" (US) awareness that the US is **different** when it comes to guns. Guns are part of our patriotism.

[Butter]

Yet we don't see this behavior to the same degree in other western nations.  There are other factors at play and I don't believe there is any evidence it is because "families" have broken down.

 

Clearly the gun violence in the US is because of the prevalence and availability of guns.  In other countries, knife attacks are an issue.  They are usually not as deadly as mass shootings, so there's that, but it's still attacking other people - strangers - for weird reasons.

 

Is that the answer? Are our backgrounds checks not asking the right questions?

 

I don't know what a background check for a gun is asking because I've never tried to buy a gun.  But I had to do a background check for volunteering in my kids' schools when they were in public school and it was really just a police check to be sure I didn't have a criminal record.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Clearly the gun violence in the US is because of the prevalence and availability of guns.  In other countries, knife attacks are an issue.  They are usually not as deadly as mass shootings, so there's that, but it's still attacking other people - strangers - for weird reasons.

 

The intentional homicide rates are much lower.  Can you show me evidence of these rampant knife attacks throughout the EU?

[Tsuga]

Well if that is the case, the average gun owner certainly doesn't use guns as weapons frequently enough to talk about a gun culture.

 

Well, maybe I should specify that the "gun culture" I grew up around was the culture where guns are used for legal purposes.  (That would be the majority of gun owners in the USA.)  Maybe there's a totally separate "gun culture" where people generally use guns for illegal purposes.  The cultures are so different that they cannot be called by the same name.

 

 

I'm not talking about people who use guns for illegal purposes. That is not the group I would refer to when talking about "gun culture". They have purely criminal culture. I agree that that is not what I at least would define as gun culture.

 

I'm talking about the hunting/collecting/shooting gun culture. In some sub-circles, this has a "self-defense" element latched on to it, presumably because self-defense is how the lobbyists justify protecting all gun rights at all costs, since that's the only thing mentioned in the Constitution.

 

The reason it's a gun culture and not a knife culture is because the culture centers around guns; guns are a major if not THE major way they exercise their hobbies, and the way that a gun is a symbol of that overall lifestyle. Knives, on the other hand, are only one of many tools most people use to cook, and many people use knives just once or twice a week. It would be more accurate to talk about the "mealtime culture" or "fast food culture" depending on the family. The symbol is the food, not the knife.

[Ms.Ivy]

I disagree that a gun is the only way to stop the murderous lawbreaker, but often it is the typical response.  Even if I did agree, it still doesn't make sense to me to use that as an argument against gun control.  I believe we can regulate guns without violating anyone's constitutional rights and without unreasonably inconveniencing gun owners and that we must regulate them because the current system isn't working.

 

I think the part you're missing is that when you say "we can regulate," you are saying "we can out-gun the bad guys."  The debate is about who the "we" is, and how big the "we" is.  At the end of the day, guns enforce law.  There's no way around that, except to un-invent the gun.  

 

ETA: sorry to "pick" on you.... I'm not really making an argument against gun tracking, registration, etc.  But I'm just pointing out that guns are fundamentally different that the other things you brought up (traffic and drugs, etc) and it DOES matter in this context if bad guys get them.  It really does have an impact.  Because most people, when talking about gun control, want guns abolished, not just "controlled."  And that's a big deal.  

[fairfarmhand]

I truly cannot understand why there is such resistance to increasing gun control in this country. I don't want people driving cars without licenses, registration, and insurance, even people who are good drivers and maintain their cars.  Similarly, I don't want people owning guns without comparable restrictions being put into place.  This would inconvenience gun owners, just like it's inconvenient to get your car's emissions or maintenance checked out and to pay money each year to register it with the state.  But those restrictions on what we can do with our cars have unquestionably made a huge difference in safety and pollution for our country. I still enjoy owning a car, driving it all over the country, and doing anything legal with it even though there are some inconveniences.  I think it is basically foolish to suggest that we can't possibly do the same with guns.

 

I'm a gun owner. I think we do need gun control laws. I'm not afraid of them. I was stunned at how easy it was to get a concealed carry license a few years ago.

 

[Joanne]

I think the part you're missing is that when you say "we can regulate," you are saying "we can out-gun the bad guys."  The debate is about who the "we" is, and how big the "we" is.  At the end of the day, guns enforce law.  There's no way around that, except to un-invent the gun.  

 

 

In *America* perhaps. But that is not the case everywhere or even in all industrialized countries.

 

Again: the premise and assumption = gun culture.

 

[TechWife]

I honestly don't think it's really just about gun control. I think it's about sanctity of life, mental health care, valuing fame over character and the focus on individual rights over the good of the community that is prevalent in our country.  Gun control is secondary.

[Butter]

The intentional homicide rates are much lower.  Can you show me evidence of these rampant knife attacks throughout the EU?

 

It seems to be more common in Asia. (other countries =/= Europe only)

 

Googling "knife attacks in Britain" gives several hits.  I don't know what news sources in the UK are better than others, but they all seem to agree with each other.  I figure BBC is a good one: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33547806 A HuffPo article from 2009, which was about the peak of knife violence, said 5 people were stabbed to death in England and Wales each week (note that's killed, not just cut).

 

Smithsonian Magazine: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/outside-americas-knives-are-often-weapon-choice-homicides-180949953/?no-ist

 

"knife attacks in Europe" also gave many hits.

[Tsuga]

The intentional homicide rates are much lower.  Can you show me evidence of these rampant knife attacks throughout the EU?

 

Knife attacks are less effective for what I hope are totally obvious reasons. Because they are prevented, you don't see as many stabbings in the statistics.

 

Nonetheless, the UK's knife assault rate is 1.5 times as high as the US knife assault rate.

 

Nobody claims to be able to stop homicides entirely. The problem with guns is that they are ultra-effective people killers. Semi- and automatic weapons are super-ultra-effective people killers.

 

Attempted homicide statistics are much less reliable because many people don't report attempted homicide. This is because a lot of homicides happen in domestic violence situations and people continue to live with their partners, and many other homicides occur in the middle of a whole lot of other illegal stuff, like drug deals, prostitution, etc. So people don't report what they survive.

 

So unfortunately I doubt we'll get an accurate picture of murders that failed because of lack of a gun any time soon.

[Chess Dad]

Wikipedia definition of Gun Culture in America.  Interesting...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_culture_in_the_United_States

 

:patriot:

[EmseB]

I said that the gun culture is unhealthy - and so deeply entrenched and institutionalized that we don't see it or its effects accurately.

 

The gun culture is such that the *premise* is that recreational of guns use is normal, ok, and healthy.

 

Why is the recreational use of guns not normal, ok, and healthy?