Should p.s. teachers be willing to offer alt. reading assignments?

[msrift]

There's a bit of a debate on our local hs board about how a high school teacher is unwilling to consider alternative reading assignments and I wanted to see what the hive thinks. 

Should a teacher be willing to offer an alternate reading assignment to those who are opposed to the original book due to language or content? I have no way of knowing how integral the book is to the lesson plan. Would it matter if the book was an integral part or just additional reading? Would it matter if it was an AP level class? How much should the teacher go out of his/her way to accommodate a conscientious objector?

(FWIW, the book was The Book Thief and the class is AP Lit. The child is in 9th grade. The teacher is reported to have basically said suck it up, buttercup. That's how real life is.)

 

[HomeAgain]

I think it depends.

 

I will say I don't think a book needs to be shocking and have explicit content in order to talk about literature, how to read, applying it to current events, or relating to the students in the class.  If the book was, say, Lolita, I would have an issue with the content and the idea that a child needs to read it, and only IT, to develop a thought about the underlying theme.  There are very few books I won't present to my kids - that is right at the top of my list.  I haven't read The Book Thief, so I don't know.  On the other side, I think it would be a shame for a student to miss out on the wonderful discussions Huck Finn could bring, and I don't think another book could fill its place.  Content should be something that is examined carefully by the teacher to make sure that the book is 100% worth it.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I'm with the teacher on this.  An AP lit. class not only reads the books but interacts with them in class.  An alternate reading selection would not allow for that.  And then there would be having to write a different test for that student etc.  

[Sahamamama]

There's a bit of a debate on our local hs board about how a high school teacher is unwilling to consider alternative reading assignments and I wanted to see what the hive thinks. 

 

Should a teacher be willing to offer an alternate reading assignment to those who are opposed to the original book due to language or content? I have no way of knowing how integral the book is to the lesson plan. Would it matter if the book was an integral part or just additional reading? Would it matter if it was an AP level class? How much should the teacher go out of his/her way to accommodate a conscientious objector?

 

(FWIW, the book was The Book Thief and the class is AP Lit. The child is in 9th grade. The teacher is reported to have basically said suck it up, buttercup. That's how real life is.)

 

 

 

IMO, there are two considerations for making this decision.

 

First, what is in the high school's Student Handbook? What is the school's policy regarding alternative assignments? The level of the course is irrelevant (unless the school policy makes the course level relevant), as is the centrality of the book to the course. If there is a policy in place concerning this issue, then the teacher and the student must abide by it.

 

Second, what emotional and mental health considerations might come into play with particular book choices? If the book deals with death, rape, abuse, suicide, murder, torture, the paranormal, and other "dark" matters, I think a school administration (and its teachers) would be wise to think about how some of their students have already been (and perhaps still are) victims of these things. I think a respectful sensitivity to a student's respectful request would be a better approach than "Suck it up, Buttercup," but it depends on the book. Because a person's response to (or perception of) a book can be so subjective, I think it has to come back to the school's policy on alternatives to assignments.

 

When I was a senior in HS, a reading assignment in an elective course was not acceptable to me. I simply read the Student Handbook, found the relevant policy, and respectfully submitted a request in writing to the teacher of the course. She was happy to suggest several alternative readings. I made a choice, completed the alternative assignment, and had no repercussions whatsoever. A+.

[carriede]

Is AP Lit appropriate for a 9th grader...?

 

If it was honors 9th or 10th grade lit, maybe an alternate would be appropriate. But if you're in a college level class, there will be college level material.

 

ETA, I'm just thinking "out loud". I obviously have no experience with a child of mine taking AP Lit.

[MEmama]

I can't imagine how a 9th grader could be too fragile to read that selection. It has sad and unsavory themes sure, but isn't that the point?

 

In general I'm against special assignments. We don't need to pushing a culture of special snowflakes (overused term, sorry) who are emotionally incapable of handling uncomfortable things. It's a reading assignment for an advanced class. I don't see why the teacher needs to accommodate every last personalized request.

[Mrs. B]

For AP lit, my answer would be to read the book. In college, I bet you can't ask for an alternative book. I only took the 100 levels in English since I was more into math and science classes, so not sure if they let you sub or give options. I did not care to read so much mythology, but I did just to complete the English assignments. Plus, the child does not have to take the AP class to get high school credit for English. Having a book list to review before signing up for the class is a good idea.

 

For a regular high school class or honor's class, I think a case by case exception could be in order in rare cases. In today's time there is so much in literature that would offend somebody in any given classroom, I don't see how the teacher could teach accommodating everyone's convictions about certain books. Sometimes the schools don't make the best choices, and I am sure I wouldn't agree with all the lit assignments today. But I just couldn't expect the teacher to change up the coursework for my objections unless it was something that had a flashing neon sign that said "Objectionable!" on it.

 

It wasn't reading a book, but I know a student, years ago, who asked to sit out in the mandatory watching of Gone with the Wind in a high school class. He did an alternate assignment. I forget if it was English or History. The request had to do with the parents and student having moral objections to parts of the movie. I had to watch Gone with the Wind for an honor's class in a different school, and it did diddly squat for my education. I don't even remember much about it, and if it had anything objectionable for a teenager or not. I do remember one lady knew nothing about birthing no babies and it was supposed to teach me all about the Civil War. In my case, something that would have prepared me for a better ACT score, which the high school also didn't do well, would have been better.

 

ETA: thinking about it, the one on one case exceptions for a high school class could be private discussions when a traumatic life event makes the book too difficult to process.

[vonfirmath]

In college, don't you know about all the books at the beginning of the course? So you can choose NOT to take a course section

that has a book you'd have a problem with.

[Farrar]

Wait, what? 9th graders shouldn't be taking AP lit... that's a junior or senior class. Honors, sure. Or maybe this newfangled pre-AP stuff.

 

And The Book Thief, while I will staunchly defend its literary value and its place in a good 9th grade lit class, isn't really up to AP snuff, IMO. Sigh... I mean, maybe I'm officially wrong though. Are there now books that are YA books and *this* recent on the AP lists? Sigh.

 

Sometimes I think it's appropriate. Other times not. A good teacher will be open to trying something else for various reasons.

 

All that said, in this case, suck it up, Buttercup. Read the reading. It's a sad book, but it's not graphic at all. You're in "AP" lit. It's not too hard for you. This is about as gentle as literature about time periods that involved genocide will get and we all need to be willing to read about difficult history.

 

 

[ktgrok]

Don't take a college class if mature themes are too upsetting. 

[kiana]

For most classes I'd say yes. For AP I'd disagree. It's supposed to be a college course.

[lmrich]

Why is a 9th grade taking an AP class? That class is for kids who are 17 or 18. It is supposed to be a college level class. 

 

I think a parent who wants to control what a kid reads should homeschool. 

[Sherry in OH]

I have mixed feelings.  On the one hand, I think it is good for all students to be stretched.  Offering accommodations to students who are uncomfortable with a particular work opens up all other materials to the same challenge.  Reading and discussing the same work as classmates is part of a literature class.

 

On the other hand, the maturity level of 9^th grade students varies considerably.  Some simply are not ready for the books being presented in some courses.  I think that if a student or his parents express serious reservation about the suitability of a title used in a required grade-level high school class, the school should offer some accommodation. The student could complete an independent study project in lieu of reading, discussing, and testing on the book.  He or she could sit in the school library or a study hall during the classes in which the objectionable material is discussed.

 

Honors and AP level courses are not required classes. The option for students with objections to reading materials for those courses is to enroll in the general grade-level course.  This is especially the case for AP classes.  At this level, the books selections should be books a college student would be expected to read and discuss.  College professors do not change book assignments simply because a student objects to the content.

 

I do think that the teachers should provide book lists prior to student registration.  Student and parents can then decide whether the student is ready for the more mature books and topics of honors and AP classes. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

AP courses are courses with perks (college credit as well as benefits in college application).  In order to get the perks you have to be able and willing to do what the course asks you to do.  I realize that teachers make their own book lists for AP lit. classes but they make those lists with certain things in mind.  If you look at a list of AP level books, most are much more "mature" in content than The Book Thief.  

[Farrar]

The Book Thief isn't a very well written book. I'd object on that point :)

 

Idk. 

 

I think we can sometimes over estimate what teens can handle. I personally found all WW1 studies/docos/books deeply distressing even at 14 or 15. It's only as an adult that I could bear to read about it. 

 

TBT isn't graphic but I can see some readers being more affected than others. I'm not a fan of forcing people to read fiction about difficult times in history. 

 

I don't think providing alternatives creates special snowflake syndrome. In some ways, I see the attitude of 'suck it up' as deliberately callous and aggressive towards teens.

 

If the demand for an alternative is coming from the parent, I'd ignore it, unless they want a higher quality text :)

 

If it's coming from the teen, I think a good teacher should consider the request respectfully.

 

Well, reasonable people can disagree about its value. I don't think it's up to AP level quality, though part of that has to do with the idea that it's so recent. AP lit should be mostly classics. I mean, it's a lit exam.

 

I can see that some kids are going to be more affected... I think if this was general English grade 9, I'd say the teacher should give an alternative. But this is for college credit potentially. The themes should be a little more mature at least, and this book is meant for teens specifically. I don't think it's too much to ask.

 

I do think part of education should be learning to deal with difficult truths, time periods, emotions, and material. Obviously that looks different at different ages and ideally - one of the benefits of homeschooling, for different kids. But I think there's a danger if in the highest level high school lit class you can possibly take you can opt out of a book that's this relatively mild. It's not even as sad as The Diary of Anne Frank, which was pretty common middle school reading a few decades ago.

 

I think the real solution is, it's September, it's early. Move that ninth grader out of the 11th/12th grade for college credit class to a ninth grade class. He's not ready for the material.

[Guest]

No. Not for an AP class.

[msrift]

You are all summarizing my conflicting thoughts very well. Before knowing the specifics, I was hoping that the teacher might be a little more accommodating than was reported. But then it was revealed that it was The Book Thief and that the main problem was the language. And then that it was for an AP Lit class. I also couldn't wrap my head around a 9th grader in AP Lit, nor that The Book Thief was considered a worthy work to include.

The local thread has since devolved into questioning why it's acceptable for college level texts to have 'offensive' language. (Not sure what exactly they're considering offensive.)

[itsheresomewhere]

Why is a 9th grade taking an AP class? That class is for kids who are 17 or 18. It is supposed to be a college level class.

 

I think a parent who wants to control what a kid reads should homeschool.

There is a school district who had AP classes for every grade near me. The work was no where near AP level. The district got some money for a certain amount enrolled in AP courses. Several local colleges around here started refusing AP credits from that district.

[Tsuga]

Regular or Honors English on religious grounds if specifically and clearly related to the student's religion (i.e. a student cannot participate in a basic public school education without violating a basic tenet of religion): Yes, the teacher should. 

 

AP English or if it does not specifically or clearly relate to a student's religion (i.e. it does not require that the child repeat the profanity, or the child can get a good education without that specific class): No, the teacher should not.

 

I do not think a child should have to read, for example, pornographic material, to be in a class. If they are forbidden from reading the lord's name in vain, they should be allowed to read an alternate (censored) text. I do think that all religions should be accommodated in a public school setting.

 

However, AP classes are supposed to be college-level, and that's optional. Likewise, if it's not against your religion, and specifically stated as against your religion before you enter the course, then you should just deal.

[Joker]

There is a school district who had AP classes for every grade near me. The work was no where near AP level. The district got some money for a certain amount enrolled in AP courses. Several local colleges around here started refusing AP credits from that district.

 

Some do quite a good job with AP classes all four years of high school, though. Oldest dd had AP Euro History in 9th. The teacher was actually from Europe and attended Cambridge. Students did extremely well on the AP test. She has more APs this year in 10th and the instruction so far is great. Some students are ready and capable in 9th and I'm glad they're given the opportunity.

 

 

As far as the OPs question, I don't think there should be alternatives given in high school. The assigned reading usually has discussions, assignments, tests/quizzes, and sometimes even debates in my dds' lit classes. I cannot imagine a teacher making different ones for some students and I don't think it would be fair for them to be given a pass on all of it.

[Farrar]

You are all summarizing my conflicting thoughts very well. Before knowing the specifics, I was hoping that the teacher might be a little more accommodating than was reported. But then it was revealed that it was The Book Thief and that the main problem was the language. And then that it was for an AP Lit class. I also couldn't wrap my head around a 9th grader in AP Lit, nor that The Book Thief was considered a worthy work to include.

 

The local thread has since devolved into questioning why it's acceptable for college level texts to have 'offensive' language. (Not sure what exactly they're considering offensive.)

 

Wait, it's not even the themes of the book that are objectionable? It's the language? Like, there are a few swear words in the book and people want their kid to read another book because of that? Good grief. Now I really have no sympathy for them. This is the weirdest thing ever all the way around.

 

ETA for anyone else curious, I'll save you the trip to Common Sense:

 

A fair amount of swearing in both English and German, including s--t and various religiously themed curses...

 

[Farrar]

Some do quite a good job with AP classes all four years of high school, though. Oldest dd had AP Euro History in 9th. The teacher was actually from Europe and attended Cambridge. Students did extremely well on the AP test. She has more APs this year in 10th and the instruction so far is great. Some students are ready and capable in 9th and I'm glad they're given the opportunity.

 

 

Forgive me, but how does that work for taking English as AP all four years? There's only one lit and one comp exam. That's two years of classes, not four. There's enough to do it with sciences (Bio, Chem, Physics...) and social studies (APUSH, APEH, Human Geography, Psych, Sociology...) but not for English. I get that some kids are going to be capable... but not most. One of the vast benefits of taking the lit exam especially your senior year instead of your freshman year is that you've had a chance to read enough titles by then to really draw from a wide body of texts on the essay portion.

[msrift]

Wait, it's not even the themes of the book that are objectionable? It's the language? Like, there are a few swear words in the book and people want their kid to read another book because of that? Good grief. Now I really have no sympathy for them. This is the weirdest thing ever all the way around.

 

ETA for anyone else curious, I'll save you the trip to Common Sense:

 

Yep, it seems to be just the language. They were hoping that Number the Stars or The Boy In the Striped Pajamas would be a good alternate. I'll just let you enjoy the thought of those being taught in AP class.

Wait, what? 9th graders shouldn't be taking AP lit... that's a junior or senior class. Honors, sure. Or maybe this newfangled pre-AP stuff.

 

And The Book Thief, while I will staunchly defend its literary value and its place in a good 9th grade lit class, isn't really up to AP snuff, IMO. Sigh... I mean, maybe I'm officially wrong though. Are there now books that are YA books and *this* recent on the AP lists? Sigh.

 

 

Indeed, unless the student is exceptional, AP English Lit is probably not suitable for a 9th grader.  I'd ask how many kids overall in the school take the AP English Lit test, and what the grade distribution is.  If no one in the class bothers to take the test, or if they do, and no one is getting a 3 or higher, perhaps it isn't really an AP class.

 

Here's a list of literature referenced by the test since 1971.  Note that students aren't expected to have read any of these titles (they are expected, though, to be able to read them), but note that (from my quick perusal), the works are the level that you would expect: http://www.eaprep.org/UserFiles/Servers/Server_132773/File/APLitBookList.pdf

[Farrar]

Yes, I don't understand the whole AP thing - when I posted I was thinking 9th grade - so I bow to greater wisdom on whether it's suitable for an AP class, or whether accomodations can be made in AP classes.

 

Aren't they advanced classes ? This isn't a book for advanced readers, imo.

 

Exactly why all of us are scratching our heads. This is not the sort of book that's likely to be referenced on the AP lit exam or likely to impress if chosen as an example on the essay portion of the exam. In other words, reading it in an AP lit class is simply a bad choice. But putting a 9th grader in this particular AP class also seems like a bad choice, so there's plenty to go around, I guess.

 

If you look at the list posted in the previous post that lists all the books mentioned on the exam from the past thirty years, many of them are books with some seriously heavy themes - both more recent like Beloved and from further in the past like Medea. Can you make a totally clean slate of AP lit reading? Um, maybe? But jumping through that hoop seems like a mistake.

[EmilyGF]

I am generally against alternate reading assignments.

 

However, I helped a friend in college get an alternative assignment when she was experiencing some serious distress after reading a book from French Lit that was basically a discussion of the nobility "taking advantage" of the poor. She herself had suffered a very serious s*xual assault that had far reaching consequences. 

 

But that doesn't seem to be the case at all.

 

ETA: That was the only book she or anyone I knew got subbed throughout all my time in college. It was a truly exceptional case.

 

Emily

[kiana]

Forgive me, but how does that work for taking English as AP all four years? There's only one lit and one comp exam. That's two years of classes, not four. There's enough to do it with sciences (Bio, Chem, Physics...) and social studies (APUSH, APEH, Human Geography, Psych, Sociology...) but not for English. I get that some kids are going to be capable... but not most. One of the vast benefits of taking the lit exam especially your senior year instead of your freshman year is that you've had a chance to read enough titles by then to really draw from a wide body of texts on the essay portion.

 

If the kid really is that advanced and ready, DE after passing both APs is the most likely option for PS. But I agree with you that in most cases it's not the best idea.

[Sahamamama]

Or gouging one's eyes out or something. Mind you I suppose you get the eyes with Lear as well.

 

Don't forget Samson (Judges 16:21) and King Zedekiah (2 Kings 25:7).

 

[Rivka]

Yep, it seems to be just the language. They were hoping that Number the Stars or The Boy In the Striped Pajamas would be a good alternate. I'll just let you enjoy the thought of those being taught in AP class.

 

Number the Stars was on my daughter's fourth grade reading list.

[SKL]

If it's something the whole class is reading and discussing, I think no.  If she lets one kid sub, then others will want to do it, and that's asking too much of the teacher to keep up with all the books and guide meaningful discussions for mutiple different groups in each class.

 

If it is an individual assignment like a book report, then yes.

[Farrar]

If the kid really is that advanced and ready, DE after passing both APs is the most likely option for PS. But I agree with you that in most cases it's not the best idea.

 

I think it's especially a bad idea for the lit exam or most of the science ones. The history exams seem more possible. It seems common to do AP World or the new AP Human Geography in 9th now.

[msrift]

 

 

I am so confused. So the 9th grader is taking an AP class and the parents wanted an alternative because the language and themes in what isn't a very advanced book were too much/too hard ?

 

If that's the actual story, I change my vote to no. It's not a difficult read and it's one of the milder Holocaust stories out there.

 

I mean, an alternative to Equus, I understand...nakedness, sex with horses, blinding oneself with a stick ? Or gouging one's eyes out or something. Mind you I suppose you get the eyes with Lear as well.

The parents issue with the language isn't that it's too easy or too advanced, but too offensive. Too many 'bad' words.

 

 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

[mamiof5]

I think it really depends on the book? Probably a few years ago I read some news about a dad who complained to the school district because the very strong sexual content of the book assigned...I really think it depends on the contents of the book

[CelticHaiku]

Yes, but the student needs to be prepared to do a lot of work. It is not the teachers responsibility to recreate te classroom environment (meaningful discussion, collaboration on topics and projects). If a student is serious about needing an alternate they need to be prepared to go sit I. The library every day and work on alternate essays and assignments related to their book. The student may think they are being punished with extra work but they are really having to do extra work to compensate for the lack of classroom discussion. It is the teacher that is stuck with the extra work of creating and grading alternate assignments. My brother did this in high school and was totally fine with that. Back when I taught junior high I gave quite a speL to my students in this before we began To Kill a Mockingbird. We talked about the racial language that would be used, why it was included in the book, and how it would be handled in the classroom. I encouraged anyone who had concerns to speak with me or have parents contact me and I outlined the work that would go into an alternate book.

I think that as it is a public school they cannot penalize a student for not reading something contrary to their conscience. The only exception to this is content essential to the course. The purpose of an AP course is to pass the AP test (who's content is outside of the teachers control). If the book is required for the test (in this case it is not) then the teacher does not have to make an acomidation.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Yep, it seems to be just the language. They were hoping that Number the Stars or The Boy In the Striped Pajamas would be a good alternate. I'll just let you enjoy the thought of those being taught in AP class.

That makes me wonder if the parents understood the nature of AP or if they thought it was just an advanced course.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Exactly why all of us are scratching our heads. This is not the sort of book that's likely to be referenced on the AP lit exam or likely to impress if chosen as an example on the essay portion of the exam. In other words, reading it in an AP lit class is simply a bad choice. But putting a 9th grader in this particular AP class also seems like a bad choice, so there's plenty to go around, I guess.

 

If you look at the list posted in the previous post that lists all the books mentioned on the exam from the past thirty years, many of them are books with some seriously heavy themes - both more recent like Beloved and from further in the past like Medea. Can you make a totally clean slate of AP lit reading? Um, maybe? But jumping through that hoop seems like a mistake.

Well it is Sept so I could see teaching themes and techniques using an easier to read book, similar to the way short stories can be used to illustrate concepts.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

When my older kids registered for dual enrollment parents and students both had to sign that we understood the courses were for adults and could include adult material and discussions.

[Bluegoat]

I would say no, given the particular circumstances, in this case there should not be an alternate choice.

 

I do think though that the question of disturbing topics is timely, given that it seems like universities at the moment are actually struggling with this in their own selections for literature, history, and even in law courses.

[Farrar]

I do think though that the question of disturbing topics is timely, given that it seems like universities at the moment are actually struggling with this in their own selections for literature, history, and even in law courses.

 

Yes, I thought that too. I thought about the entering freshman at Duke who refused to read Fun Home because he found it offensive. Presumably this parent found the language offensive. Is it different for college versus high school? And, if so, how different? And how do you prepare kids for college (where I think the vast majority of us believe that students should have to read the material regardless of how they feel about it) if you always give them the option to opt out in high school.

 

I also wondered if the student was even part of this equation. Like, does the student object to reading the word sh--t? Or just the parent? And does that matter?

[kitten18]

Yep, it seems to be just the language. They were hoping that Number the Stars or The Boy In the Striped Pajamas would be a good alternate. I'll just let you enjoy the thought of those being taught in AP class.

Oh

My

Gosh

 

Wow

[Farrar]

For me it's about compulsion. If a child is compelled to be at school, and compelled to study a certain level of English, the system should respond to genuine requests for accommodation, especially where they come from the student.

 

Once you are freely choosing a class at school or college - there is no state mandating you must do so - the argument for accommodation is weaker.

 

Yeah, I can see that argument. That's compelling for me.

 

On the other hand, at some point there has to be compulsion. A school has to teach something or it's not a school. There has to be some level of information and skills. Should a student be allowed to skip PE because they object to physical activity? Not read a book just because they don't like the cover? And what about science? Should young earth students be allowed to forgo science because it's too secular? I think obviously there's a line, but I don't know how we determine where it is. And does it make a difference when it's an honors course, especially an AP course? No one is compelled to do honors level work, not even in high school. You can always choose to do the regular level. And you can also choose to object by refusing. But if it's civil disobedience, then shouldn't you just have to take your punishment? The whole thing of civil disobedience that I think people forget is that, hey, Thoreau spent the night in jail. Do the crime and take the punishment.

 

I also wonder if you should be able to compel the student when the student doesn't care and it's only the parent who is objecting. In this case, it seems that possibly the student doesn't care about the book, it's just that the parent doesn't want the student to read swear words. It's hard for me to feel much student rights sympathy for that situation.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Offering alternatives in non-optional classes isn't the same as getting out of it though. Letting kids develop their PE skills in different ways makes sense to me. Why can't one group do yoga and the other group do basketball ? The goal is fitness and physical skills, right ?

 

The same way - why can't an alternative book be offered, especially if the student is prepared for the work that comes with that ?

 

Schools in general could do with an extra dose of flexibility. IMO.

 

But hey, what do I know ? I'm anti compulsion, pro homeschooling, not a teacher. There may be practical obstacles I am unaware of. 

The problem is that if an alternate was offered with the same kind of subject matter, then the book would either have to be more disturbing (as this book is very mild) or it would have to be at an even lower level than this choice, which we already know is on the low end of rigor for a class like this.  AP classes get certain designations and the repect those designations engender because there is an expectation of a certain degree of rigor with regards to reading level and subject matter.  It is precisely because students are taught to grapple with the big questions that this class gets the AP designation.  

[Mabelen]

AP literature is typically a senior year high school class for a reason. I can see an extremely gifted and mature child taking it a year early but freshman year? Our district has many gifted students but there are enough high school English honors classes to challenge them before AP Lit. It seems wise to give this student the gift of time and let him/her mature in order to handle the course.

[Farrar]

Offering alternatives in non-optional classes isn't the same as getting out of it though. Letting kids develop their PE skills in different ways makes sense to me. Why can't one group do yoga and the other group do basketball ? The goal is fitness and physical skills, right ?

 

The same way - why can't an alternative book be offered, especially if the student is prepared for the work that comes with that ?

 

Schools in general could do with an extra dose of flexibility. IMO.

 

But hey, what do I know ? I'm anti compulsion, pro homeschooling, not a teacher. There may be practical obstacles I am unaware of. 

 

Alternatives are good. I really do believe in them.

 

But I've also taught in schools of various sorts and tried to offer alternatives and found that you can't always please people. Most of the requests for a different option aren't really about different core beliefs or needs, they're about wanting to get out of something. I'll give an example from when I was teaching and had to organize the PE (which is insane because they're no one less PE than me, but that's another story). We started out with just a couple of options but there was a core group of kids who were very unhappy with them. So we tried different options to please them. But it didn't matter what we offered - the kids who wanted to get out of PE always wanted to get out of PE, whether it was rambunctious group basketball or yoga or a quiet walk in the woods (all tried). In the end we had to say, here's the limited number of options, we thought about all the various types of PE and took your input and tried to create a set of diverse options, you must pick one and do it. You must have a doctor's note to be excused (I hated implementing that, but you don't have your period every day, girls. And your mild season allergies can't excuse you from physical activity in perpetuity, boys.)

 

At my core, I want to be anti-compulsion... but when kids are in a school and don't have to do anything at all, I don't know how that can possibly work long term. Every rule is compulsion on some level. Don't scream obscenities in the lobby is compulsion. Don't break the furniture on purpose is a compulsion. Even if there are lots of options, pick an option or create your own option is a compulsion. I feel like it's just about where do you draw the line. In my ideal school, there would be way more flexibility, but not unlimited.

The parents issue with the language isn't that it's too easy or too advanced, but too offensive. Too many 'bad' words.

 

 

 

I'm curious if they'd have the same issue if the student were a senior in high school?  If they view it acceptable for a senior, I'd say, take the class then.

 

If they don't want a senior in high school reading books with swear words, I'd ask what about as a freshman in college?

 

And really, is it only about the language, and not the content?  Would Oedipus Rex be OK, depending on what precise words the translator used?

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

 

I suppose one question is - how much do we accept that schools are what they are, and the rules are the rules - and how much do we say 'no, not good enough' and agitate for change to meet the needs of out students.

The realilty is that a publicly funded school has to meet certain criteria that other schools don't need to meet and they also need to meet the needs of all the students (at least superficially) at once.  So they have certain needs and goals that a homeschool or small private school doesn't have to meet.  And they are less able to be as flexible.  As far as this type of AP class specifically, there is a very specific goal that they are trying to meet - passing a set exam that the individual teachers have zero design input into.  So this kind of class is not where you agitate for change, at least at the individual school level.  I think there is a political savvy that needs to be there for change.  

 

When I was in university, I advocated for disabled rights and got the university to change their policy.  But I did that by being politically savvy.  I knew they would only listen if I had done my homework and if I was giving them changes that were reasonable ways for them to accommodate the needs of disabled students.  I went and observed other school's programs.  I interviewed the directors of those departments and found out what worked and what didn't and why.  And I made very specific recommendations along with my reasons why it was necessary and why it would benefit the university.  I got my changes.  (PS - before me, the students advocating this did the "this is unfair" protest and got no where.  They were seen as agitators with nothing concrete to add to the conversation on the topic.)

 

 People who protest "no fair" for books with language that is seen age appropriate in the context of certain literature are going to be seen as agitators without much to add to the conversation because they have no solutions for the problem of how to handle these types of literature in an age appropriate manner that fosters real intellectual growth. (This is a very bad run-on sentence!)   I do think that people who have good reasons for substituting other good literature (or better literature in your example) can make a much better case.  

[Kathleen.]

The Book Thief is written at a fourth grade reading level.  The teacher probably picked an easy book because he/she is unfamiliar with more challenging books and had everything all set and is unwilling to redo it all for one student.  Any good teacher should be willing to be reasonable.

 

Sadly, this sort of book selection is becoming the norm in literature and language arts classrooms.  If these parents are objecting to this in ninth imagine then they probably wouldn't approve of their kids having to read about this in fourth grade and watching a video about what happens to Jews in the shower at Auschwitz, or assigning third graders to keep a journal about their experience as a runaway slave in the underground and then drawing a reward poster for their capture.

 

Kids are being asked to read things they aren't ready for all the time.  Perhaps the schools could be a little bit more thoughtful about what they assume kids can handle and choose better books.  There are so many great books, so many choices.

[Farrar]

The Book Thief is written at a fourth grade reading level.  The teacher probably picked an easy book because he/she is unfamiliar with more challenging books and had everything all set and is unwilling to redo it all for one student.  Any good teacher should be willing to be reasonable.

 

Sadly, this sort of book selection is becoming the norm in literature and language arts classrooms.  If these parents are objecting to this in ninth imagine then they probably wouldn't approve of their kids having to read about this in fourth grade and watching a video about what happens to Jews in the shower at Auschwitz, or assigning third graders to keep a journal about their experience as a runaway slave in the underground and then drawing a reward poster for their capture.

 

Kids are being asked to read things they aren't ready for all the time.  Perhaps the schools could be a little bit more thoughtful about what they assume kids can handle and choose better books.  There are so many great books, so many choices.

 

But to me this is the beauty of doing The Book Thief with young teens - it deals with topics that are difficult... so it's nice that the text is relatively simple. A book that's hard both in content and reading level is maybe a problem. But, as I keep saying it's a terrible choice for this class, a dumbing down, as you're saying. I think it's probably a very good choice for a regular level 9th grade class. 

[Farrar]

This is why I am not a teacher. 

 

Yes. School is all about compulsion. It's why i don't like schools.

 

Idk. I had to fight for a year to get the world's stupidest English teacher to give dd a book other than Holes - which was great for all the remedial boys in her year, but bloody awful for a girl already out doing internships with theatre companies and reading Antony and Cleopatra for fun - and the inflexibility of school bother me just as much now as it did when I was at school myself.

 

On my PE report my teacher wrote 'Melissa thinks she is above us all and swans about during lessons as if she'd rather be somewhere else' - ie trying to 'get out of it' - but the core issue was that I had zero hand-eye skills. 

 

Once dh taught me to improve my hand-eye skills, surprise! Ball skills  became more fun.

 

It's too easy to write kids off as wanting to get out of stuff, too difficult to find the real reasons kids are bucking under compulsion.

 

Sorry, stream of consciousness rant.

 

I suppose one question is - how much do we accept that schools are what they are, and the rules are the rules - and how much do we say 'no, not good enough' and agitate for change to meet the needs of out students.

 

If there were hand eye coordination issues for the PE complainers, it was definitely hard for me to figure that out. Of course, that's maybe why people who know what they're doing (aka, not me) should have been in charge of PE. I kept saying we not athletic sorts should just go for walks on the path in the woods. They definitely didn't have any diagnosed walking disabilities. I'm sure there was a reason for trying to get out of it... in fact, I can remember a number of my PE resistors over the years and tell you just why they hated physical activity, but there's no easy answer to "doesn't want to look sweaty in front of the boys" (she told me that one) or "lack of self-esteem with physical activity" or "meds that make him feel lethargic." I mean, if you're going to require physical activity (which I think we should) and you're willing to talk to kids and accommodate them, then what more can you do? There has to be some level of requirement. It's the same with books and skills and so forth.

 

I'm glad that people required things of me. I mean, I don't always think they required the right things. And sometimes I was mistreated in school... I was telling the horrible story of the teacher who tried to shame me for my handwriting today (I started at a school with one style and transferred to a school with another style and the teacher talked about how awful my perfectly formed according to the first style writing was in front of the whole class). I had my share of those stories. But I hate to think what I would have done if I hadn't been required to do anything at all. I would have never done a bit of math or science or any physical activity at all. That would have been not so great for me in the long run.

 

One solution at the high school level is potentially more university model schools where students can opt to take the courses they want with the level of challenge they want and covering more specific topics than some of the high school "English 9" type classes. Then you take on the challenge that's presented and the rules and the content of the course more willingly more like in college. And in general, I feel like homeschooling is an option for more and more people and that as some of these flexible enrollment schools are on the rise, that's another solution - where parents can choose different models. But when you're in a community (schools should be one) you have to give up some things - like the ability to choose any book - to support the community. In turn, the community should provide you with other benefits. I think it's a social contract of schools that is often not really appreciated. I mean, in one view, it's compulsion (and I think both views are "right") but in another, students and parents are choosing school and choosing to give up certain things in exchange for getting other things. I think a lot of the problem arises because we don't really trust schools anymore, in part because they seem to not fulfill their end of that social contract so often.

[msrift]

I'm curious if they'd have the same issue if the student were a senior in high school?  If they view it acceptable for a senior, I'd say, take the class then.

 

If they don't want a senior in high school reading books with swear words, I'd ask what about as a freshman in college?

 

And really, is it only about the language, and not the content?  Would Oedipus Rex be OK, depending on what precise words the translator used?

My guess, based on the fact that the parents stopped reading the book because of the offensive language, is that they would not be comfortable with their child reading it at any age, including as an adult.