About that lion...

[Amira]

I think there are a lot of interesting, relevant, and important discussions we could have about this topic that don't involve hating on the dentist or abortion, the first of which isn't particularly useful and the other is completely irrelevant. 

[Haiku]

This thread reminds me of the people who tell me that because I adopted internationally, I must not care about American kids. As if I can only choose a limited number of things to care about. Pffft.

[DawnM]

This thread reminds me of the people who tell me that because I adopted internationally, I must not care about American kids. As if I can only choose a limited number of things to care about. Pffft.

 

That is when you turn to them and ask, "Oh, so how many American kids have you adopted?"  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I get what Farrar is saying and I agree that the Internet Mob Mentality is trending in a dangerous direction.

[TravelingChris]

I don't understand sport hunting.  Hunting deer or geese for meat is something very different. Hunting lions for no good reason is objectionable in my world view. Luring lions then hunting then having them suffer for days is very objectionable.  Africa in general has a lot of problems with poaching and illegal killing.  The fact that an American goes there to do that brings shame to our country and people are outraged.  THen when we find out that he already had a problem with another hunt, the outrage goes up.  THis guy thinks the rules don't apply to him.  I wouldn't want to have a dentist with that kind of attitude,  It wouldn't make me feel particularly safe since maybe he won't follow dental rules either.  Once someone is known to play fast and loose with laws, your trust in their judgement falls.  I am not surprised that he is loosing patients.  I want law abiding dentists and probably most people do too.

 

I don't know anyone who is a sport hunter.  Everyone I have met who hunts keeps the game for food.  

 

AS to people only caring about animals, I don't think most people are like that.  Most care about animals and people too.  But with regard to some animals, they are in grave danger of extinction and usually people are the cause of the animal's decline.    

[GailV]

Has anyone else heard the interviews with Jon Ronson about his new book, So You've Been Publicly Shamed? I heard him on NPR a few days ago, and requested the book from the library. Then this story popped up, which is EXACTLY the type of thing he was talking about.

 

I'm looking forward to reading the book. I learned from the NPR interview that companies exist for the express purpose of salvaging the reputations of people who have been internet-shamed. I wonder if this dentist is going to give that a go.

[Tsuga]

I have tried repeatedly to quote someone above who suggested that it was I who compared cats to people.

 

I would like to state for the record that I'm a humanist and a specist and I do not equate cats with people. I was only extending a comparison made earlier upthread to highlight the implications of comparing people and animals, and also to point out that there is a lot going on with people and animals that we don't think about.

 

My opinion about foeti is only tangentially related, because I do not believe they are independent living organisms until they are viable, so my opinions equating cat and human foeti stand. To me that's a potential mammal, whether it's a potential cat mammal, a potential human mammal, a potential cow mammal, and I just don't care that much, but I realize that other people believe these are persons and so I am not going to go into further discussion. If you wish to respond to me (vs. respond to my thoughts for the purposes of discussion with others) feel free to PM.

[Ausmumof3]

I'm against this dentist and the killing of this lion. I'm absolutely not defending him. Honestly, I have a deep bias against dentists in general. They scare the bejeezus out of me.

 

But every time there's one of these things - and by one of these things, I mean, something where someone does something and everyone gets all up in arms about it online for a few days - I feel a sense of real weariness. Sometimes I think it's something overblown, or something unjustified in being angry about, other times I think the person probably should be punished... but even when I feel that way and dislike what happened, like in this case, I don't like the way we're all going about this with virtual stonings. It makes me deeply uncomfortable.

I so agree with this. Also I think chucking a random comment on social media becomes a stand in for actual action quite often. In the same way that we might drop a comment on facebook when someone's having a rough time instead of helping out.

[MistyMountain]

What he did was completely objectionable. I have no problem with subsistence hunting but hunting for sport is or trophy is wrong especially a species where the habitat and population is a fraction of what it once was because of human actions. He lured it from an area where he was not supposed to hunt and this was not his first offense. I do object to the attitude of this dentist.

 

I have seen the abortion issue come up on Facebook as well as vegan arguments. I can see where they are coming from because those are important topics to people and it seems to them that this one life is valued and not the animals who live in cruel factory conditions or the unborn.

 

I am not a vegan but I completely respect people who are and think it is good for animals and the environment. I was a vegetarian for years. Meat eaters can feel outraged over this though. The dentist was not hunting this animal to feed his family. He was educated enough to know that lions are vulnerable. Humans are causing so many species to die off in a major extinction event that is caused by our actions. The attitude expressed by this hunter is not uncommon and is not helping that situation. It is very different to hunt an animal in a sustainable manner or an animal that is over reproduces for food then to hunt an animal that was special to a country and who had major habitat and species loss for a trophy on the wall. He also has killed a rhino and a polar bear.

 

There are lots of other important issues out there but that does not mean that this is just one stupid lion or that this should not even be mentioned. I do also agree that these stories get really sensationalized and that people go overboard in their online attacks or villainizing of people. The way certain stories go viral and the people totally attacked with threats and complete character assassinations is not a good trend.

[mathnerd]

Creekland, I did not know about this until I saw your thread. I went googling and found out all that I can about it. I am horrified. I am a vegetarian, pacifist and a non-violent person and I don't find the killing of such a majestic and endangered beast in any way "sporty". Killing any life for fun is abhorrent to me. This dentist was in legal trouble long ago for illegally killing a black bear according to court documents unearthed by news sites. So, he has been doing this for a while.

 

Here is the sad impact of the killing on Cecil's pride of lions:

Fears for Cecil's cubs:

Cecil's death is likely to have a damaging effect on his pride, officials said.

"The saddest part of all is that, now that Cecil is dead, the next lion in the hierarchy, Jericho will most likely kill all Cecil's cubs so that he can insert his own bloodline into the females," the Zimbabwe Conservation Force said.

"This is standard procedure for lions," it warned.

Compounding the problem, "the females of the pride could die trying to defend those young," said Jeff Flocken, the North American regional director for the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

 

more here:WARNING: the dentist is posing with dead animals that he hunted - so avoid it if you are sensitive to such pictures:

 http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/29/africa/zimbabwe-cecil-the-lion-killed/index.html

 

there is an online petition to stop hunting of endangered animals. Adding the link here in case it helps the cause:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/821/738/351/demand-justice-for-cecil-the-lion-in-zimbambwe/

 

[creekland]

An interesting read this morning.

 

I have no issues at all with shaming someone who paid a ton of money to join some criminals in another country and shot a nationally treasured lion there.  I don't buy his "I didn't know" excuse, because even if he didn't know, he should have.  Ignorance is not an excuse for breaking laws.  His first clue might have been how much it cost.  His second should have been the lion's collar.

 

Shaming may be the only way to get others of his kind to actually think about what they are doing - and maybe - stop.  It's very doubtful any other way would work IMO.

 

Letting this drop with nothing happening (or maybe a fine - in his eyes, an additional fee) would be truly shameful.  Not only would he do more, others would see it's not a big deal too.  Feel free to hook up with criminals in other countries and destroy whatever you want - as long as it's not people.  Americans can go anywhere and do anything, after all.

 

I also think local kids who start killing cats/dogs, etc, should be addressed by parents and law enforcement and even their community.  I don't buy the idea that "it's just a cat/dog" so no big deal.  Yes, there are worse problems out there and yes, those should be dealt with as well.  Dealing with multiple problems at the same time can be done.

[Haiku]

That is when you turn to them and ask, "Oh, so how many American kids have you adopted?"  

 

Oddly, it seems they never have.  :confused1:  :thumbdown:

[DawnM]

Oddly, it seems they never have.  :confused1:  :thumbdown:

 

Shocking!

[mamaraby]

Sport hunting and wildlife is an issue... I agree it's not one that I feel as connected with, though basically agree with you. So, yeah, that's true that my ethical views are here. But the focus on this, as you point out, has been to ruin his business, call him names, and the mob mentality about it isn't anything that feels thoughtful or issue driven to me. If the focus was on trophy hunting as a larger issue I would feel better about the whole thing. But it hasn't been.

 

The discussion here has been slightly more thoughtful... but when you can say that about a discussion that devolved into name calling about a totally different issue, then I think that's not a great sign.

 

ETA: To tie it to another issue I mentioned... if the focus in the Sandra Bland death were on tracking down and personally hurting the police officer (which I've seen a little of, but that hasn't been the dominant discussion), then I would fell the same way - if anything, the internet stoning gets in the way of the real issues at hand and in the way of justice.

So because other people have focused on name calling and death threats then that means it's not a discussion I should have or an issue I should care about? Sorry, Farrar, but you don't get to shame me for caring about this issue because other people behave badly. imo, if the dentist is shamed because of his behavior? I'm thinking this isn't such a bad thing. His being convicted of federal charges back in 2008 for essentially doing the same thing in Wisconsin clearly didn't stop him from doing it again. It seems his attitude is awfully similar to the silencers here- "It's just an animal, why should it matter?"

 

Also, plenty of death threats called in and made against the people who work at the jail where Sandra Bland was held. Ditto on the officer. Should we then not talk about that issue because other people behaved badly? Or that a huge focus was on conspiracy theories about her being dead before her bookig photo was taken? No one there can quite explain to me why the sheriff's office who runs the jail would cover up for the state trooper. Just the assumption that "police" are a singular entity. Given that one is run by the state government and another is run by an elected sheriff...I have a hard time seeing how that works. But again, because some people concerned about the issue are unreasonable that means we don't talk about it?

 

This is about more than sport hunting and wildlife. imo, a nonchalance about the lives wildlife is shameful. The human-centric, "our issues are the only issues that matter" and "how can you care about that thing when this thing over here directly involves humans," attitude is shameful. Our lives on earth as humans rely upon a certain level of biodiversity. The existence of preedators in a food chain keeps that food chain healthy (see also: Yellowstone National Park). This is important for the rest of life on this planet.

 

And even if we were to agree that the above isn't a serious side issue approved by the serious people on the board, there's plenty of room to talk about the shades of cultural imperialism when a white American heads off to Africa and poaches a national symbol. And how the rest of the world views that as just another bully American stomping in and taking what he/she wants. We can talk about the lasting impacts of Western policy, remnants of colonial attitudes/actions, etc that contributed to Zimbabwe's present situation.

 

But, whatever, Farrar says this isn't a serious issue and Arctic Mama tinks abortion is a more important topic so quiet to all the rest of us.

[Word Nerd]

Letting this drop with nothing happening (or maybe a fine - in his eyes, an additional fee) would be truly shameful.  Not only would he do more, others would see it's not a big deal too. 

 

Who suggested letting this drop with nothing happening? Are the only options public shaming/doxxing or doing nothing?

[Farrar]

Mamaraby, if it's an issue you genuinely care about, please care about it and post about the issues. I have said repeatedly that I'm not trying to shame anyone and that I agree with everyone saying he did something wrong and that wildlife issues are important. I'm trying to ask if putting the focus on an individual in the particular way that I've seen this treated around the Internet is really healthy for us as a society. When people lob internet stones at this guy by flooding his yelp with bad reviews or by taking pleasure in the death threats he's received, what does that do to us as a group? And is letting the Internet mob mete out "justice" - be the arbiters of it - good overall. Like I said, in this case, I tend to agree with the mob, but I don't always and the more I see these, the more uncomfortable they make me even when I agree. But, also, as I said, the Internet has a power to bring to light issues such as this where many believe justice wasn't done. How can it still serve that purpose without becoming a mob? The examples I gave are things that I personally care more about, but they're also cases where I was trying to say that I felt like Internet was bringing things to light without becoming a figurative burn the monster mob, where there was more conversation and less hurling of stones.

 

I'll bow out now. I feel like you're really misreading what I'm trying to say here and may even misread this.

[goldberry]

Sorry, Farrar, but you don't get to shame me for caring about this issue because other people behave badly. 

 

But, whatever, Farrar says this isn't a serious issue and Arctic Mama tinks abortion is a more important topic so quiet to all the rest of us.

 

Mamaraby, I'm not hearing what you're hearing from Farrar.  She wasn't criticizing the people who care about this issue that I could tell, she was simply sharing her own feelings that were being influenced by the "mob mentality" developing around this and other stories of this kind.  

[Word Nerd]

Mamaraby, if it's an issue you genuinely care about, please care about it and post about the issues. I have said repeatedly that I'm not trying to shame anyone and that I agree with everyone saying he did something wrong and that wildlife issues are important. I'm trying to ask if putting the focus on an individual in the particular way that I've seen this treated around the Internet is really healthy for us as a society. When people lob internet stones at this guy by flooding his yelp with bad reviews or by taking pleasure in the death threats he's received, what does that do to us as a group? And is letting the Internet mob mete out "justice" - be the arbiters of it - good overall. Like I said, in this case, I tend to agree with the mob, but I don't always and the more I see these, the more uncomfortable they make me even when I agree. But, also, as I said, the Internet has a power to bring to light issues such as this where many believe justice wasn't done. How can it still serve that purpose without becoming a mob? The examples I gave are things that I personally care more about, but they're also cases where I was trying to say that I felt like Internet was bringing things to light without becoming a figurative burn the monster mob, where there was more conversation and less hurling of stones.

 

I'll bow out now. I feel like you're really misreading what I'm trying to say here and may even misread this.

 

FWIW, I agree with what you're saying, and the trend of pillorying by Internet mob bothers me as well and is what I was referring to in my first post. There's a difference between calling out bad behavior and meting out punishment for it, and the latter is not the responsibility of the public.

[mamaraby]

Mamaraby, if it's an issue you genuinely care about, please care about it and post about the issues. I have said repeatedly that I'm not trying to shame anyone and that I agree with everyone saying he did something wrong and that wildlife issues are important. I'm trying to ask if putting the focus on an individual in the particular way that I've seen this treated around the Internet is really healthy for us as a society. When people lob internet stones at this guy by flooding his yelp with bad reviews or by taking pleasure in the death threats he's received, what does that do to us as a group? And is letting the Internet mob mete out "justice" - be the arbiters of it - good overall. Like I said, in this case, I tend to agree with the mob, but I don't always and the more I see these, the more uncomfortable they make me even when I agree. But, also, as I said, the Internet has a power to bring to light issues such as this where many believe justice wasn't done. How can it still serve that purpose without becoming a mob? The examples I gave are things that I personally care more about, but they're also cases where I was trying to say that I felt like Internet was bringing things to light without becoming a figurative burn the monster mob, where there was more conversation and less hurling of stones.

You continue to focus on what you feel is an inappropriate internet response. What would you like me to do about that? I'm not leaving Yelp reviews or posting on his Facebook page. I haven't advocated that anyone here do that. I'm also not saying that's not a valid discussion to have.

 

What I'm saying, though, is that the way you've approached this thread reads as an attempt to silence/shame others from having the conversation. You may feel like that's a misread and fair enough.

 

I disagree, however, that the internet mob mentality has been avoided in the instances you feel are net positives.

[sunflowerlady]

People can care about more than one thing at a time. People can have more than one thought in their head at a time.

 

Many of the the people who are outraged by this are ALSO outraged by human suffering and injustice. Many of the people who are disgusted and outraged by this atrocity are ALSO disgusted by the PP stories.

 

I don't know where people are or what internet they are on if they say there is a ton of talk and outrage over the lion story and none over the  PP story. I am seeing the PP story all over the place.

 

It is not one or the other. There is plenty going on in the world for people to care about.

[Jenrae]

I see a strong connection. Killing animals for sport is sociopathic, but killing babies (and selling their body parts) is... what?

Yep, my thoughts as well.

 

Yes, I think this man is wrong for killing, basically a tame animal in a manner that is far from sportmanship or whatever the term is for hunters. With that said, how is the world outraged over this, yet turn a blind eye to the slaughter of human babies in the womb?

 

Yes, we can stand for both, but my outrage is far greater over the precious human life of the unborn that is not valued.

[Jenrae]

People can care about more than one thing at a time. People can have more than one thought in their head at a time.

 

Many of the the people who are outraged by this are ALSO outraged by human suffering and injustice. Many of the people who are disgusted and outraged by this atrocity are ALSO disgusted by the PP stories.

 

I don't know where people are or what internet they are on if they say there is a ton of talk and outrage over the lion story and none over the PP story. I am seeing the PP story all over the place.

 

It is not one or the other. There is plenty going on in the world for people to care about.

Agree.

[poppy]

Yep, my thoughts as well.

 

Yes, I think this man is wrong for killing, basically a tame animal in a manner that is far from sportmanship or whatever the term is for hunters. With that said, how is the world outraged over this, yet turn a blind eye to the slaughter of human babies in the womb?

 

Yes, we can stand for both, but my outrage is far greater over the precious human life of the unborn that is not valued.

 

Abortion has been legal for 40 years now. Have you spent the past 40 years being outraged by nothing at all other than that one issue?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yep, my thoughts as well.

 

Yes, I think this man is wrong for killing, basically a tame animal in a manner that is far from sportmanship or whatever the term is for hunters. With that said, how is the world outraged over this, yet turn a blind eye to the slaughter of human babies in the womb?

 

Yes, we can stand for both, but my outrage is far greater over the precious human life of the unborn that is not valued.

 

Because many don't see fetuses to be the same as humans/animals that are fully functioning beings outside of the womb? 

[mamajag]

Do you mean luring a fully grown and birthed infant out of a crib and shooting him? Or are you talking about a nonviable fetus in a legal, necessary medical procedure? Straw. Man.

There is very rarely a medical necessity to kill an unborn child and dismember it for parts. It's not a straw man to point out the massive amount of cognitive dissonance needed to be okay with the former but outraged at the latter. The video may have been made under pretense of the man being from a biotech firm, but nothing changes the words that came out of their mouths in between bites of salad and sips of wine...because everyone wants their Lamborghini.

[Tsuga]

Abortion has been legal for 40 years now. Have you spent the past 40 years being outraged by nothing at all other than that one issue?

 

To be honest, I think a lot of people actually have spent the last 40 years outraged by nothing but abortion.

 

To them it's the holocaust over and over and over and it doesn't seem that morally they are able to think about much else which is precisely why this thread is happening. But is that so unreasonable, if you believe a fetus is a human person?

 

"Oh goodness wasn't it awful that that man killed his family?" --> "DUDE WE ARE LETTING MOTHERS KILL THEIR BABIES BY THE THOUSANDS DAILY! RIGHT NOW! But you're worried about five people?"

 

"I get so upset by wage theft." --> "What about the dead babies all over the country? Their entire lives were stolen."

 

"Isn't it horrible that this mom abandoned her kids at the McDonalds?" --> "But moms are KILLING their babies all the time!"

 

I do know people whose moral framework is actually continually occupied by the ongoing abortion of thousands and thousands of foeti every day.

 

I would be upset and freaking out too if I thought that those were separate lives and not just developed eggs, morally equivalent to organs. Wouldn't the death of thousands upon thousands of people in your town, county, and state occupy your moral compass the whole time it was happening?

 

In fact I think it's a reasonable way to react, if you are truly concerned about foeti as human persons, to continually freak out about abortion and basically spend your whole life stopping it. Just like I have spent my whole life fighting poverty through education and social services. To me that is the only reasonable reaction to injustice. And if I thought foeti were persons or independent lives I would probably have been on the news talking about it. 

 

That's not what I believe, and I think there's evidence for my views. However, I don't begrudge anyone who does believe that foeti are persons, bringing it up and freaking out about it.

 

Just like vegetarians and vegans share a moral value for non-human animals that I don't. And yes they do seem to be continually upset by the fact that we're animals eating animals. Do I share their disgust? No, but I get how it's important to them and how it's the MOST important thing to them. I mean what can I say... I'll eat a cow. Vegetarians be all, "It looked at you, it had thoughts, and you ate it. What the hell is wrong with you?"

 

I have my own answer to that and I could go on but my point is, millions of animals are slaughtered daily for human and other-animal consumption and if you think that animals have some of the same rights as humans, this is understandably upsetting and I get the horror. I get that it's your main issue in life. That makes sense, because for you those sentient beings should not be killed but they are being killed and that's horrible.

 

I don't share the beliefs of vegetarians or pro-lifers with respect to wrongful killing of heterospecies killing and the definition of life, respectively. But I can totally understand how having those beliefs would cause someone to be extremely upset about that issue above all and to harp on it incessantly. That is a rational reaction when you are seeing what you believe is a massive, wrongful, loss of life.

 

(That said, a Lamborghini? Teehee, I swear to god, if we nonprofit folks could get a fraction of what people think we get...)

[Jenrae]

Abortion has been legal for 40 years now. Have you spent the past 40 years being outraged by nothing at all other than that one issue?

You apparently didn't see my second post stating that I understand people can be outraged over more than one issue at a time.

[Jenrae]

Because many don't see fetuses to be the same as humans/animals that are fully functioning beings outside of the womb?

I understand; THAT is the sad state of our society.

 

I'm not a great debater, nor do I have the time or energy to spend trying to sway a person to my belief system, if it is obvious they are not interested.

 

I am leaving the conversation as I don't wish to derail the OP's topic anymore than it has been. That was not my intention with my original post.

 

Have a great day Chocolate Reign!

 

eta: thought I was replying to someone other than Chocolate reign.

[poppy]

 

To them it's the holocaust over and over and over and it doesn't seem that morally they are able to think about much else which is precisely why this thread is happening. But is that so unreasonable, if you believe a fetus is a human person?

 

Eh, I get your point, but.... why not take it to the bullying thread, or to the bedbugs thread, or whatever. 

 

Also, as a vegetarian, I want to say, I think cows are wicked stupid.

[Runningmom80]

The point I was trying to make was that I find the outrage a little suspect because animals are treated horribly and killed in inhumane fashion every second of the day, but we are piling on this particular man, sharing his business address, leaving bad reviews, etc etc.  Jimmy Kimmel was crying over this lion.  Why no tears for the millions of baby male chicks sent through grinders?  Or the sick pigs thrown onto concrete as a means to an end?   I'm not saying that people shouldn't be upset about it, but why this lion?  Because it was famous?  Because it's endangered?  (Would we have an adequate chicken, pig and cow population if we weren't raising them for consumption?) Again, I'm not an animal rights activist. I don't even consider myself an animal lover, I don't have pets, and I'm not a member of PETA.  The only reason I know about these things is because of my interest in vegan and vegetarian food, and concern about our food supply in general. 

 

It's definitely sad, I'm not defending this dentist.  I don't like hunting as a sport or as a means to providing food, because I don't feel it's necessary.  The response to this has been interesting to watch, and just makes me question the strong emotions that are being communicated.

 

ETA: the fact that people are comparing it to fetal rights is really suspect.  We aren't talking about the same thing at all.  A ball of cells that couldn't survive on it's own vs a fully formed being outside of a womb is not a fair comparison in my opinion.

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I understand; THAT is the sad state of our society.

 

I'm not a great debater, nor do I have the time or energy to spend trying to sway a person to my belief system, if it is obvious they are not interested.

 

I am leaving the conversation as I don't wish to derail the OP's topic anymore than it has been. That was not my intention with my original post.

 

Have a great day Chocolate Reign!

 

eta: thought I was replying to someone other than Chocolate reign.

 

No debate needed of course.  Apparently you do know why others don't find the issue as troubling as you do so I am not sure why you threw that question out in this thread.

[SKL]

Yeah, I have to admit that I don't understand why this has been reported on so much for multiple days.  Last night I was in a restaurant and they had CNN on the wall (why?) and this lion killing was one of those repeated stories every x minutes.  The other one they kept playing over and over was about a cop who killed a guy at a traffic stop.  Of course they had to repeat every single time that it was a WHITE cop and a BLACK motorist.  WHITE creep BLACK victim WHITE BLACK WHITE BLACK and my kids kept asking me to explain it.  This is why we don't watch TV, especially not the "news."

 

I mean, it's awful, but I don't think the most brutal ISIS killings have gotten that much press.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

The point I was trying to make was that I find the outrage a little suspect because animals are treated horribly and killed in inhumane fashion every second of the day, but we are piling on this particular man, sharing his business address, leaving bad reviews, etc etc.  Jimmy Kimmel was crying over this lion.  Why no tears for the millions of baby male chicks sent through grinders?  Or the sick pigs thrown onto concrete as a means to an end?   I'm not saying that people shouldn't be upset about it, but why this lion?  Because it was famous?  Because it's endangered?  (Would we have an adequate chicken, pig and cow population if we weren't raising them for consumption?) Again, I'm not an animal rights activist. I don't even consider myself an animal lover, I don't have pets, and I'm not a member of PETA.  The only reason I know about these things is because of my interest in vegan and vegetarian food, and concern about our food supply in general. 

 

It's definitely sad, I'm not defending this dentist.  I don't like hunting as a sport or as a means to providing food, because I don't feel it's necessary.  The response to this has been interesting to watch, and just makes me question the strong emotions that are being communicated.

 

ETA: the fact that people are comparing it to fetal rights is really suspect.  We aren't talking about the same thing at all.  A ball of cells that couldn't survive on it's own vs a fully formed being outside of a womb is not a fair comparison in my opinion.

 

I think you hit upon a few of the reasons, with another being that the killing was for no purpose.  While most people would not themselves engage in animal cruelty, they are willing to overlook the death of animals that are used as food while being unforgiving towards those killing animals simply for sport.

 

I think the greater disconnect, and the one I don't understand at all, are the ones who object to hunting animals for food yet still eat factory farm raised meat.

[Tsuga]

Eh, I get your point, but.... why not take it to the bullying thread, or to the bedbugs thread, or whatever. 

 

Also, as a vegetarian, I want to say, I think cows are wicked stupid.

 

I don't think that having IQ as a cutoff for whether or not something should or should not be killed for food is going to lead us where we want to go, lol.

 

And while I hear your point about it not being at the forefront of their minds all the time, I think the salient point in this thread is that it's about loss of life. Naturally people are upset about bedbugs, having a line painted on their roads, their husband working 60 hour weeks, whatever. A lot of these are very small issues compared to, for example, the Civil War or the Holocaust. But that's precisely why abortion, murder, etc. doesn't get brought up. It's understood that we aren't talking about moral problems in those cases. It's a practical issue, a convenience issue, a health issue. Not a moral issue.

 

This thread is clearly about morality and wrongful killing and the value of life. So in my opinion, while it could have gone on without an abortion discussion, it's not as out of left field to say "Well if you value this lion's life, if life is important to you, what about these lives?"

 

Whereas with bedbugs... nobody's going to come out and say, "If you wish to sleep without getting welts on you, forget it. The more important thing is to save babies' lives."

 

We all seem to accept that it is okay to be upset about a moral injustice but simultaneously care for the day's mundane tasks.

 

And I will say... when I complain about my finances, having not saved enough to keep a house through the recession, nor our retirement--people actually do say, "Well there are starving people in the world, you are lucky you have a house." These are inevitably the people who actually have a house and rentals and whose kids are already through college, so it's irksome to hear that from them, but whatever. It is not irrelevant for them to post such things on a financial thread.

 

But it would be silly to post the same advice on someone's "I can't choose a curriculum" thread. "Help, BA or MM? I'm freaking out!" "Well to be honest your problems aren't that big. You could be in a shack on the outskirts of Mumbai." "...."

[mathnerd]

 

Here is the sad impact of the killing on Cecil's pride of lions:

Fears for Cecil's cubs:

Cecil's death is likely to have a damaging effect on his pride, officials said.

"The saddest part of all is that, now that Cecil is dead, the next lion in the hierarchy, Jericho will most likely kill all Cecil's cubs so that he can insert his own bloodline into the females," the Zimbabwe Conservation Force said.

"This is standard procedure for lions," it warned.

Compounding the problem, "the females of the pride could die trying to defend those young," said Jeff Flocken, the North American regional director for the International Fund for Animal Welfare.

 

 

for those who are interested in reading about the behavior of Lions and pride dynamics, a little more about Jericho and Cecil the male lions of that region:

The legend of Cecil started about three and a half years ago, when the then-10-year-old lion was kicked out of his pride, beaten by younger, more powerful males. Hunters argue that as loners, prideless male lions aren't as important to sustaining lion populations.

But Cecil wasn't finished. He soon teamed up with another lone male named Jericho, and the lions regained control of the region's two prides, one of which consists of three lionesses and seven cubs under seven months old.

The loss of Cecil most likely spells the end of Jericho's reign, and the possible loss of the pride's cubs. Jericho, as a single male, will be unable to defend the two prides and cubs from new males that invade the territory. This is what we most often see happening in these cases. Infanticide is the most likely outcome.

[Mommy22alyns]

There is no way for anyone to ever know this, much less comment on it.

 

The path this thread is on, lockdown should not be long.

 

 

Untrue.  I can Google and find several polls.  Here's one - scroll down to page 4.

 

https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf

 

 

Back on the subject, yes, I can feel disgust over more than one thing.  Killing the lion was cruel and unnecessary.  The dentist should suffer repercussions for it.  It's just the sheer level of outrage that is accompanying this, and the sheer level of, "Eh, whatever" that is accompanying the discussion on carefully killing unborn infants and selling their organs.  Nobody's doxxing Nucatola or Cecile Richards.

[poppy]

I don't think that having IQ as a cutoff for whether or not something should or should not be killed for food is going to lead us where we want to go, lol.

 

And while I hear your point about it not being at the forefront of their minds all the time, I think the salient point in this thread is that it's about loss of life. Naturally people are upset about bedbugs, having a line painted on their roads, their husband working 60 hour weeks, whatever. A lot of these are very small issues compared to, for example, the Civil War or the Holocaust. But that's precisely why abortion, murder, etc. doesn't get brought up. It's understood that we aren't talking about moral problems in those cases. It's a practical issue, a convenience issue, a health issue. Not a moral issue.

 

This thread is clearly about morality and wrongful killing and the value of life. So in my opinion, while it could have gone on without an abortion discussion, it's not as out of left field to say "Well if you value this lion's life, if life is important to you, what about these lives?"

 

Whereas with bedbugs... nobody's going to come out and say, "If you wish to sleep without getting welts on you, forget it. The more important thing is to save babies' lives."

 

We all seem to accept that it is okay to be upset about a moral injustice but simultaneously care for the day's mundane tasks.

 

And I will say... when I complain about my finances, having not saved enough to keep a house through the recession, nor our retirement--people actually do say, "Well there are starving people in the world, you are lucky you have a house." These are inevitably the people who actually have a house and rentals and whose kids are already through college, so it's irksome to hear that from them, but whatever. It is not irrelevant for them to post such things on a financial thread.

 

But it would be silly to post the same advice on someone's "I can't choose a curriculum" thread. "Help, BA or MM? I'm freaking out!" "Well to be honest your problems aren't that big. You could be in a shack on the outskirts of Mumbai." "...."

 

Hey, you're talking to the person who brought up the moral repugnance of factory farmed meats in relation to this thread. It's easy to be mad at the guy who killed a lion with a bow and arrow, less easy to be mad at the corporation that provides cheap chicken, beef and pork.....

 

But I don't think it's really about life and death. I think it's about media response.  Anti-abortion folks are outraged that Cecil gets attention while their (in their minds) more horrifying recent news story hasn't caught on in the same way. (For reasons that it's not worth getting into here, but basically, anyone who didn't think abortion was murder in the first place isn't going to react much to the PP thing.)

 

Really, both stories will be forgotten by the end of the summer.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yeah, I have to admit that I don't understand why this has been reported on so much for multiple days.  Last night I was in a restaurant and they had CNN on the wall (why?) and this lion killing was one of those repeated stories every x minutes.  The other one they kept playing over and over was about a cop who killed a guy at a traffic stop.  Of course they had to repeat every single time that it was a WHITE cop and a BLACK motorist.  WHITE creep BLACK victim WHITE BLACK WHITE BLACK and my kids kept asking me to explain it.  This is why we don't watch TV, especially not the "news."

 

I mean, it's awful, but I don't think the most brutal ISIS killings have gotten that much press.

 

National news tend to get play over international.

There has been a recent history of black men being killed by white cops, two of them clear cut murders caught on tape, so I am not sure why you are surprised by the coverage.

[Tsuga]

Hey, you're talking to the person who brought up the moral repugnance of factory farmed meats in relation to this thread. It's easy to be mad at the guy who killed a lion with a bow and arrow, less easy to be mad at the corporation that provides cheap chicken, beef and pork.....

 

But I don't think it's really about life and death. I think it's about media response.  Anti-abortion folks are outraged that Cecil gets attention while their (in their minds) more horrifying recent news story hasn't caught on in the same way. (For reasons that it's not worth getting into here, but basically, anyone who didn't think abortion was murder in the first place isn't going to react much to the PP thing.)

 

Really, both stories will be forgotten by the end of the summer.

 

Media attention is social attention to a problem, though. So concern about what the media is paying attention to (the Kardashians, the Duggars, Cecil, Cecile, whatever) is a moral and political concern.

 

I'm not sure about the PP story, because I work for a nonprofit and let me tell you, anything short of perfection and perfect service is never forgotten. People LOVE to hate charities and services of any kind because it justifies their non-participation.

 

So I personally think this could be troublesome for Planned Parenthood. I have not watched the video but if she was as blasé as it sounds, she was a fool. You don't talk like that about dead babies even with biotech people. You learn to be careful because you know the public is always looking for a reason to skewer you.

 

I agree with you about factory farmed meat. 

[poppy]

National news tend to get play over international.

There has been a recent history of black men being killed by white cops, two of them clear cut murders caught on tape, so I am not sure why you are surprised by the coverage.

 

Not to mention riots.

[ktgrok]

Ok, this is why people "seem" to care more for a lion named Cecil than for huge swaths of people dying in Africa or factory farmed chickens. Because he has a name. Because he has a photo. Because at the heart of it our brains are not wired to understand fully something that involves vast numbers of people (or animals) we have no personal connection to. Blame biology. We evolved in small tribes, and trying to comprehend things on a bigger scale is important, but in some ways we are doomed to fail. That doesn't make us stupid or mean we have misguided priorities. It means that we are creatures that respond to something close and or personal better than abstract concepts. Added to this is the idea of compassion fatigue. The first lion we see on facebook will get more attention than the 100th, again because of how our brains work, not because we are awful people. So let someone care about the poor lion without shaming them for the way their biology works.

[poppy]

 

 

So let someone care about the poor lion without shaming them for the way their biology works.

 

Shaming is such a strong word to use. It assumes an intent.  I responded to this tragedy as honestly and organically as anyone else.  Now I'm a shamer because I didn't reply in lockstep with everyone else?

 

There really isn't much to say about the lion dying. It's sad. Trophy hunting is morally questionable at best (except maybe deer?)

[SKL]

 (except maybe deer?)

 

I think folks who hang up their deer trophies (heads) have generally used the meat for food in some way.

 

My dad always wanted one of those.  ;)  Never got one though.

[Word Nerd]

Stop shaming people for shaming people!

[ktgrok]

Shaming is such a strong word to use. It assumes an intent.  I responded to this tragedy as honestly and organically as anyone else.  Now I'm a shamer because I didn't reply in lockstep with everyone else?

 

There really isn't much to say about the lion dying. It's sad. Trophy hunting is morally questionable at best (except maybe deer?)

 

I didn't point any fingers at anyone. If you didn't shame anyone, then I'm not referring to you, am I? If you said, and I don't know, I don't remember who said what, that it's awful/bad/upsetting/shameful/etc that people care more for a lion than black citizens in america/african people/chickens in factory farms or if you in any way tried to say it was a bad thing to care for the lion then I probably do mean you. I honestly have no idea. 

[Tsuga]

Shaming is such a strong word to use. It assumes an intent.  I responded to this tragedy as honestly and organically as anyone else.  Now I'm a shamer because I didn't reply in lockstep with everyone else?

 

There really isn't much to say about the lion dying. It's sad. Trophy hunting is morally questionable at best (except maybe deer?)

 

If it's trophy hunting it's not moral, IMO.

 

If you happen to be proud of how much meat you got for your family, that's fine, and even if you put it up on your wall. But you're still, you know, eating the deer so that's not trophy hunting. You're hunting for meat and then if you take a picture of the fish you caught or whatever, that's incidental to the main purpose. I promise you my partner and I did not go out ocean fishing for the sole purpose of proving what a big fish we could catch but I did take a picture of it. :)

 

My BIL finally got a big elk. My sister said if he got an elk he could mount the antlers. She thought he wouldn't manage because they aren't that common and after all he does have a job so he's not out there all the time, just some weekends. Well he did it, lol.

 

I actually enjoy elk more than venison, I learned. And she now has antlers on her wall.

[Guest]

Posing with game and taking antlers and hides isn't trophy hunting if the meat is properly dressed and packed. But you can frequently find improper piles left out with huge amounts of waste, which indicates a halfhearted attempt at making a trophy hunt look like less of one. As a family who hunts subsistence it makes us pretty mad. I wouldn't be first in line to outlaw it, but I wouldn't shed a tear if someone else did.

[Haiku]

There really isn't much to say about the lion dying. 

 

There's actually quite a lot to say. It touches on so many topics: ecology, conservation, privilege, economics, relative value, need, legality, morality ... It's a very broad topic.

[poppy]

I didn't point any fingers at anyone. If you didn't shame anyone, then I'm not referring to you, am I? If you said, and I don't know, I don't remember who said what, that it's awful/bad/upsetting/shameful/etc that people care more for a lion than black citizens in america/african people/chickens in factory farms or if you in any way tried to say it was a bad thing to care for the lion then I probably do mean you. I honestly have no idea.

Well, I didn't say 'it's a bad thing to care for lion ' because .... That's ridiculous. We all care about the lion. That none of us ever heard of before he died.

 

But I did try to put it in perspective ..... you are attempting to shame me for being a shamer. SMHz You feeling chastised doesn't mean you are a victim. And it doesn't mean I am a victimizer. You are responsible for your own feelings. This isn't like body shaming, there is no core identity issue at stake.

[ktgrok]

Well, I didn't say 'it's a bad thing to care for lion ' because .... That's ridiculous. We all care about the lion. That none of us ever heard of before he died.

 

But I did try to put it in perspective .....you are attempting to shame me for being a shamer. SMHz You feeling chastised doesn't mean you are a victim. And it doesn't mean I am a victimizer. You are responsible for your own feelings. This isn't like body shaming, there is no core identity issue at stake.

 

I didn't shame anyone. You are responsible for your feelings too :)

 

I did try to explain why your comments about perspective are misguided. And explained why people can more easily get upset about a single lion, with a name, than thousands of faceless chickens. 

 

You want people to react to factory farming they way they did Cecil? Put up a picture of ONE chick, with a name. That's how the human psyche works.