creekland Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Well, I didn't say 'it's a bad thing to care for lion ' because .... That's ridiculous. We all care about the lion. That none of us ever heard of before he died.. Actually, I'm pretty sure he was one they used in a Nat Geo documentary my guys and I have watched (or maybe Nature or Discovery - we watched a bunch of documentaries and still do). Someone on the last page said this will all blow over before the end of summer (multi-quote still isn't working I think). I have to say I seriously doubt that dentist will be able to reopen his practice - ever. It could easily die out nationally, but unless many pro "sport" hunting folks are willing to travel distances to see him as a dentist, I doubt locals will ever forget. To me, that's one good consolation out of it all - a punishment of sorts - not quite as good as Zimbabwe getting to punish him for his action, but something meaningful nonetheless. Who knows though. Perhaps he can move and change his name. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I had heard of Cecil before. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I just am tired of the word "shame". I did try to explain why your comments about perspective are misguided. And explained why people can more easily get upset about a single lion, with a name, than thousands of faceless chickens. You want people to react to factory farming they way they did Cecil? Put up a picture of ONE chick, with a name. That's how the human psyche works. Nah. I don't think putting up factory farming pics will change anything. Feeling bad for Cecil is very safe. Making major changes to your diet or doubling your grocery bill for a principled stance is not. Which is another reason why people get more easily upset about a single lion than chickens. It's not thousands of chickens, though. It's 9 billion annually in the US. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I thought this was interesting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This thread reminds me of the people who tell me that because I adopted internationally, I must not care about American kids. As if I can only choose a limited number of things to care about. Pffft. Right. Or how because I'm a vegan and choose not to buy or use animal products in my life, I must not care about human beings. Because, apparently, every person is allowed only one issue. Of course, most of the folks who've tossed those accusations at me can't actually point to any issue they do care enough about to do one blessed thing. For the record, I consider myself "pro-life" in a consistent and meaningful way: I am personally opposed to abortion AND eating or hurting other living beings for human enjoyment or convenience. I also oppose the death penalty AND believe in stricter gun control. At least some folks can manage not to live in an either-or world. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 We all care about the lion. That none of us ever heard of before he died. I knew who Cecil was. He's a pretty famous lion. But perhaps you have to care about animal welfare in a specific, not a vague "what a shame to shoot a lion," kind of way, to actually know who he is. Maybe he's not as famous as I think he is. But then again, a friend shared a rant by some woman who was taking everyone to task for caring about a lion when Tamir Rice's killer hasn't even been charged with anything. She chided people because she, personally, did not know the name of his murderer, while the name of the deranged dentist is "splashed all over the news." Ok, I also knew the name of Tim Loehmann (without having to look it up), and his name was also splashed all over the news when the story about Tamir was in the news. No one knew Tamir Rice's name before he died ... or Trayvon Martin ... or John Crawford III ... or Samuel Dubose ... or ... but now we do. doubling your grocery bill for a principled stance is not I've been a vegan for years now. My food bill is much lower than that of my friends who eat meat and dairy. Regardless, it is true that if you give an animal a name and a specific identity, people will respond. I work with a farmed animal advocacy group, and in my experience, people don't want to see pictures of thousands of chicks being dumped into macerators, and they don't really respond to that on a personal level, but when you put up a picture of one specific chick who was rescued, and you give that chick a name, people respond. I also work with a farmed animal sanctuary (not Farm Sanctuary), and people don't stop eating pigs if you show them videos of anonymous piglets having their brains dashed out at slaughterhouses. They do, however, stop eating pigs when they come to the sanctuary and meet Henry, a huge, friendly, and good-natured pig. Just like when you give human victims of violence names, people care more than when it's just "how many nameless people that I don't know" being referred to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 This thread reminds me of the people who tell me that because I adopted internationally, I must not care about American kids. As if I can only choose a limited number of things to care about. Pffft. Never mind that not a single person in this thread has argued that you can only care about one thing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Never mind that not a single person in this thread has argued that you can only care about one thing. I don't think anyone has said it outright, but multiple other issues were deemed more worthy of concern. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I thought this was interesting. Sure, and everyone who wants us to think that it's wrong to equate the Confederate flag with bigotry is happy to post stories about all of the African American folks they know who have the flag in their yards. And the conservative Christians who happy to explain how their stance against marriage equality shouldn't be held against them because they love their gay cousins. It's all so very meaningful to the discussion. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Sure, and everyone who wants us to think that it's wrong to equate the Confederate flag with bigotry is happy to post stories about all of the African American folks they know who have the flag in their yards. And the conservative Christians who happy to explain how their stance against marriage equality shouldn't be held against them because they love their gay cousins. It's all so very meaningful to the discussion. Riiiight. The opinions of Zimbabweans about the death of a lion in Zimbabwe are completely irrelevant to the discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I slaughter animals and am still not vegan. But I consider no animal life equal with any human, at any stage of life. That doesn't mean we shouldn't advocate for their humane treatment, safety, and health. I think we should. And working to enforce farming practices that dispose of animals painlessly (not cruelly bludgeoning animals to death!) is as important as advocating hunters take only kill shots or avoid shooting at all. These things do matter. They don't matter as much as protecting humans. Equating them elevates the animal lives inappropriately and debases the human lives inappropriately, too. And I had never heard of Cecil prior to this. Nothing in the stories is provoking me to elevate him to real life Mufasa status, either. I'm disappointed in the conduct of the hunter and the guides - we shall see what happens legally. But I don't think the crime deserves more stiff penalty because of the fame of the lion. Any animal illegally poaches needs to be dealt with properly by the authorities. I'm not even touching the gay confederate stuff. The mashup of those two together is worthy of a Southpark plot :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeannpal Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It is interesting that this story is so newsworthy. Many years ago, a local wildlife park near my hometown had a rather famous lion (in the state). This lion was killed by local teenagers who thought it might be funny to kill a lion in captivity. RIP Big Red:( I lived in a rather affluent area in central Georgia and taught at a private school. Several of my student's fathers had been big game trophy hunting in Africa. Most paid close to $100,000 for a legal hunt. Until I met these people, I had no idea that big game hunting was still legal anywhere in Africa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I slaughter animals and am still not vegan. And that's fine. My implication was not that everyone has an inner vegan just waiting to bust out when they encounter the right animal or image. Many people will be perfectly content eating animals no matter what. That's their right. I'm not trying to make the world vegan. I'm trying to reach people who are concerned but don't know the option is available and help them find it. That's how I became a vegetarian. But my post was in response to the idea of why we even care about this specific lion. Imo, it's because he has a name and a story. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 Nope. You will not shame me for decrying the killing of a sentient being. I can both be outraged about the killing of the lion and be outraged about what happens to the people in Zimbabwe. Helping the people of Zimbabwe *does not* require the killing of other sentient beings. Big game hunting for "sport" is not how Zimbabwe's problems will be solved. I agree 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 It's also what happens when you have 24 hour news programs. What else are they going to repeat every 15 minutes? The viewers they're marketing to apparently need that dosage. If someone wants a variety of news from around the world, then they're certainly not going to be sitting in front of the major media networks. I mostly get my news from internet sources. My dad was in town and wanted to watch CNN. They spent, good grief, at least 30 minutes on Donald Trump and the comments his aide made. I thought my brain was about to fall out! They can't just tell you what happened anymore, they have to invite 20 people to give their interpretations of anything that happens and to *speculate* on possible outcomes. Donald Trump's aide said blah blah. Donald Trump said blah blah about it. This person and that person condemned what was said. The end. How in the world can you drag that out 30 minutes? Who actually can watch that for any length of time? Sorry. Rant over. Pitiful though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppy Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 I mostly get my news from internet sources. My dad was in town and wanted to watch CNN. They spent, good grief, at least 30 minutes on Donald Trump and the comments his aide made. I thought my brain was about to fall out! They can't just tell you what happened anymore, they have to invite 20 people to give their interpretations of anything that happens and to *speculate* on possible outcomes. Donald Trump's aide said blah blah. Donald Trump said blah blah about it. This person and that person condemned what was said. The end. How in the world can you drag that out 30 minutes? Who actually can watch that for any length of time? Sorry. Rant over. Pitiful though... To be fair, Trump is leading in the GOP polls, by a fair number. The fact that he is ahead of anyone, let alone the presumed front runners, is news. To be fair #2, I only know this because my local news radio station spent some time on Trump too..... In other words, radio is no respite from the inanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 30, 2015 Author Share Posted July 30, 2015 Riiiight. The opinions of Zimbabweans about the death of a lion in Zimbabwe are completely irrelevant to the discussion. ??? I read the article, but I don't see where most have an opinion as they are too busy trying to keep alive. An economic meltdown over the last few years has closed many companies and left two thirds of the population working in the informal economy while battling acute water and electricity shortages.Most people questioned in downtown Harare hadn't actually heard about the lion and said they were too busy trying to a living to care about it. One resident, however, noted that the lions were needed to bring in tourism and Palmer should be fined with the money going toward animal conservation. "It's very sad that the American chose to travel all the way to kill our animals," said Clinton Manyuchi. And this guy who is quoted seems to have a really good idea for bringing money into the country that might have been mentioned in this thread earlier. When one is considering African safari tourism, a famous name can sway folks to choose that country. When they know the famous critter is dead - having been poached - they're likely to choose elsewhere. How, exactly, does that help anyone in the country whether they knew the lion (or about the lion being killed) or not? We are fortunate in our country that we have a diverse (mostly) working economy. That still gives our citizens no right to become poachers elsewhere just because they have loads of money and can do it. Should we loot other poor economic areas too since many residents there don't have the luxury to enjoy the handful of perks that might be around? Perks that they might not even know they have? Perks that bring others to their area spending money? It rings bells from history class about how many historic areas were decimated over time as rich folks built up their collections. I'm sure there were those then that yawned about the ethics or were encouraging of those who did it. Humans don't change much over time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 So now I think poaching is just swell and am yawning as I encourage poachers?!? This is dumb. Think whatever you want. I'm out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happi duck Posted July 30, 2015 Share Posted July 30, 2015 That's terrible about "Big Red" the lion. :( I think if that happened now it would go viral and there would be much outrage. Regarding these issues that blow up and are then "forgotten"... Maybe these things are forgotten by *most* but not everyone. If even a small percentage of the people who hear about one of these things does something that is progress. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 So now I think poaching is just swell and am yawning as I encourage poachers?!? This is dumb. Think whatever you want. I'm out. Today is not a day I feel like worrying about nitpicking words or nuances. FTR, everything I post is always generic about a situation - never about any individual boardie specifically - even if I use part of their post to reply to them because it's a starting point for my thoughts. I failed the mind reading course in college. I have no idea specifically what any individual believes - esp as it relates to posts of mine they haven't even seen as I typed them. That in no way changes my thoughts about overall situations happening in our world. The only individuals I condemn in this lion shooting are Palmer and the two native Zimbabweans setting up the scene for him. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacia Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 As the world mourned Cecil the lion, five of Kenya’s endangered elephants were slain More :crying: . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 As the world mourned Cecil the lion, five of Kenya’s endangered elephants were slain More :crying: . I saw a headline this morning that claimed Palmer wanted an elephant, but I didn't click on the story as I'm doing a brief check of things before heading out to do chores in 10 minutes. With Kenya's latest, I'm glad they caught two of the poachers at least. Perhaps Cecil's death will bring more light to poaching in general. However, until the "it's just an animal," greed, and "collectors" become less common, chances are not much will change. Humans are quite self-centered as a species. Care about our planet? Not so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 There's a lot of behaving badly on this thread. You guys aren't even talking about poaching any more, for the most part. You're calling each other names, bringing in irrelevant issues, making assumptions about motivations, and...oh, I don't even the energy to explain all the ways in which you are NOT carrying on a constructive dialogue. Move on. And rethink your style of argumentation, please. SWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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