Math memes on Facebook - THIS is why we homeschool

[blondeviolin]

One popped up in a group that I follow. It's simple order of operations stuff. And more than 90% of the comments are all WRONG. Not just wrong, but confident in their answer "because PEMDAS." OMG.

 

And apparently 4th grade is the year everyone needs help with math because all of my IRL friends are asking me if I'm going to get a math tutor for my 9yo because she's getting into "hard math." :001_huh:

[Reefgazer]

What's PEMDAS?

[EKS]

I am convinced that most people stop understanding math somewhere in the middle of learning about fractions.  

[sixpence1978]

PEMDAS = order of operations

Parenthesis

Exponents

Multiplication & Division

Addition & Subtraction

[regentrude]

What's PEMDAS?

 

the stupid acronym that is supposed to teach order of operation:

Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

 

The problem is that it creates the false impression that multiplication must be performed before division and addition before subtraction, which is nonsense, since those pairs of operations are of equal rank.

 

[regentrude]

I am convinced that most people stop understanding math somewhere in the middle of learning about fractions.  

 

That has been consistently my impression as well.

 

[blondeviolin]

I am convinced that most people stop understanding math somewhere in the middle of learning about fractions.  

 

Yes!  The amount of people that cannot manipulate fractions boggles my mind.  This is why I've been asked about a tutor for my oldest.  "What about fractions?!" 

[Farrar]

I don't hate "PEMDAS." No one ever taught it to me until I was an adult and I was forever forgetting what the order of operations was. As long as it's taught at the end as a mnemonic... Order of Operations is just weird because you can't discover it or work backwards to get it. It's just how we all agreed the language of math should work. That's the other thing no one ever taught me that probably would have been useful. I was forever using what Ed Zaccaro calls "the 2-10" method to solve problems. If I forgot how to do something, I'd just plug in really easy numbers and rederive it. I can remember doing that in fourth and fifth grade. But that doesn't work for order of operations. If someone had just told me, by the way, that won't work for order of operations, that would have helped me for years and years.

 

But, yeah, 90% or more of the math memes on Facebook make me want to scream.

[plansrme]

It appalls me to see grown-up women, especially, in fear of fractions.  Please, Ladies, get a hold of yourselves.  I have a friend who wants to hire my 17 yo to tutor her rising sixth grader in math.  My 17 yo has As in college calculus II and II (at Georgia Tech--not even a community college), differential equations and a college-junior-level class for math majors.  And you need her to tutor your SIXTH grader?  She's happy to have the work, of course, but my mom friend is a working professional with a college degree and a good-paying job, yet she feels incapable of teaching math to her 11 year old. 

 

ETA:  Not the ladies on here, of course; my friends IRL.

[Tammi K]

What's PEMDAS?

 

The order of operations  Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction

[Guest]

It appalls me to see grown-up women, especially, in fear of fractions. Please, Ladies, get a hold of yourselves. I have a friend who wants to hire my 17 yo to tutor her rising sixth grader in math. My 17 yo has As in college calculus II and II (at Georgia Tech--not even a community college), differential equations and a college-junior-level class for math majors. And you need her to tutor your SIXTH grader? She's happy to have the work, of course, but my mom friend is a working professional with a college degree and a good-paying job, yet she feels incapable of teaching math to her 11 year old.

 

ETA: Not the ladies on here, of course; my friends IRL.

Okay, but I have to defend your friend a little bit. ;) I find that there are things that I can do, but I am not so good at explaining them, or making them accessible to younger people. I can read music, but I have still spent many thousands of dollars on music lessons, because I don't know how to teach it to a child.

 

It is such a relief to see someone who is a gifted teacher explaining what I should have been able to, but doing a 100% better job.

[Farrar]

And in greater defense... I think a lot of it is that the math genuinely does look different now on the page. At first glance, a lot of the time, it looks "weird" to anyone who went through school in the 70's, 80's and 90's. And instead of supporting the parents and saying, "Hey, we know it looks a little different, but math is still math. Here's some easy resources for you if you want to understand how we're teaching now!" the school districts send home letters that say things like, "Please don't help your second grader with math. You wouldn't understand it." The schools are basically telling the parents it's too complex.

 

Of course, as homeschoolers, we don't buy it. But... some poor parents do. Sigh.

[Liz CA]

the stupid acronym that is supposed to teach order of operation:

Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

 

The problem is that it creates the false impression that multiplication must be performed before division and addition before subtraction, which is nonsense, since those pairs of operations are of equal rank.

 

 

We always used :Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally."  :)

But it was explained that multiplication/division and addition/subtraction are done at same time.

[Forget-Me-Not]

the stupid acronym that is supposed to teach order of operation:

Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

 

The problem is that it creates the false impression that multiplication must be performed before division and addition before subtraction, which is nonsense, since those pairs of operations are of equal rank.

 

 

Yes.  I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't realize that M/D and A/S were equivalent in that acronym until I was an adult. 

 

I also don't think I ever understood fraction division until I had to work through Math Mammoth's section on it with my 6th grader.  I remember learning the "rules" about fraction division, but I never understood the math behind the "rules" if that makes sense.  It's been good for me to have to relearn some math with my kids.  Pre-algebra here we come (thankfully my DH is a super math whiz, so he's my safety net :D).

 

[Arcadia]

She's happy to have the work, of course, but my mom friend is a working professional with a college degree and a good-paying job, yet she feels incapable of teaching math to her 11 year old.

Hubby and I are happy to pay AoPS to do the nagging kids to write all their working for us. Our boys who can work everything in their head (even geometry) are willing to type a complete answer to earn full points for the written questions of their homework.

 

I found it a lot more tiring to tutor my brother in math than to tutor strangers. I can walk away at the end of the tutoring session for a "stranger" but I can't do that for a struggling sibling.

[plansrme]

Hubby and I are happy to pay AoPS to do the nagging kids to write all their working for us. Our boys who can work everything in their head (even geometry) are willing to type a complete answer to earn full points for the written questions of their homework.

 

I found it a lot more tiring to tutor my brother in math than to tutor strangers. I can walk away at the end of the tutoring session for a "stranger" but I can't do that for a struggling sibling.

 

But it is the "incapable" part that gets me, like she doesn't understand the math.  She really ought to understand the math.  This isn't hiring  someone with a better teaching style or more patience; it is that she thinks she needs someone half-way to a BS in math to tutor her middle-schooler in manipulating fractions.

[Reefgazer]

Oh, I never knew there was a simple acronym for it; I always learned "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally".

PEMDAS = order of operations

Parenthesis

Exponents

Multiplication & Division

Addition & Subtraction

 

[Jenn121]

Yes.  I'm embarrassed to admit that I didn't realize that M/D and A/S were equivalent in that acronym until I was an adult. 

 

I also don't think I ever understood fraction division until I had to work through Math Mammoth's section on it with my 6th grader.  I remember learning the "rules" about fraction division, but I never understood the math behind the "rules" if that makes sense.  It's been good for me to have to relearn some math with my kids.  Pre-algebra here we come (thankfully my DH is a super math whiz, so he's my safety net :D).

 

I did not know it until this thread!

[MyThreeSons]

I teach Geometry at our Co-op. Every year, I have several students who tell me that one or more of their parents says they never took Geometry. That blows my mind. My Mom, who was on the "business skills" track in high school in the 1950s, took Geometry, for crying out loud.

 

[idnib]

One popped up in a group that I follow. It's simple order of operations stuff. And more than 90% of the comments are all WRONG. Not just wrong, but confident in their answer "because PEMDAS." OMG.

 

And apparently 4th grade is the year everyone needs help with math because all of my IRL friends are asking me if I'm going to get a math tutor for my 9yo because she's getting into "hard math." :001_huh:

 

Welp, this is depressing.

[poppy]

I don't know. I think most people's knowledge of the formal rules of grammar is at an elementary level level too.  They can identify parts of speech. They can read and write well, and recognize grammar problems while reading. But how many adults really know and can explain the meanings of terms like misplaced modifier, gernunds, infinitive and interrogative and appositive phrases and so on.  I'm sure most folks can read up on it and then teach it. But it's not intuitive, even though we use or experience complex language every day.  Math, beyond the basics, is more intimidating.

 

I am completely guilty of being lazy about math.  My GRE score for verbal was more than double my math score.  And I married an engineer, so it's easy for me to just ask rather than figure it out.  But the other day I was buying something online- a fishing lure- and asked, without even thinking about it, "what's bigger, 1/3 or 7/16?"  He replied, "Seriously?"  and by then I'd figured it out. But, ouch.

[Shellydon]

I didn't take geometry in high school in the 80s.  I graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. in a difficult field and have a master's degree in a medical related field.  I struggle greatly with fractions and math in general.  Some people struggle with math.  It doesn't mean they are stupid or should get a grip. 

[EKS]

I don't know. I think most people's knowledge of the formal rules of grammar is at an elementary level level too.  They can identify parts of speech. They can read and write well, and recognize grammar problems while reading. But how many adults really know and can explain the meanings of terms like misplaced modifier, gernunds, infinitive and interrogative and appositive phrases and so on.  I'm sure most folks can read up on it and then teach it. But it's not intuitive, even though we use or experience complex language every day.  Math, beyond the basics, is more intimidating.

 

I am completely guilty of being lazy about math.  My GRE score for verbal was more than double my math score.  And I married an engineer, so it's easy for me to just ask rather than figure it out.  But the other day I was buying something online- a fishing lure- and asked, without even thinking about it, "what's bigger, 1/3 or 7/16?"  He replied, "Seriously?"  and by then I'd figured it out. But, ouch.

 

Most adults cannot write well.

[Hikin' Mama]

I've seen those memes and find the answers in the comments interesting. However, I like math, am reasonably good at it, and have been teaching it to my kids for nearly 20 years. I sometimes wonder if I hadn't homeschooled if I would still remember the order of operations now, 25 years or more since I last took a math class (calculus) in college.

[Jenn121]

Most adults cannot write well.

 No, they write "good".   :confused1:

 

ETA: my comma button on my laptop works intermittently. I had to fix my sentence.

[happypamama]

Back in high school, I took some classes at the University of Delaware. One was Math for Elementary Ed Teachers. This wasn't a methods class; it was a content class, up to about fourth grade level math. I was bored out of my mind and struggled not to fall asleep every class. There was a woman in there for the third time because she had not yet passed the class. And she wanted to be an elementary teacher! I went home, called my boyfriend who was away at his second year of college, and said, "That homeschooling thing we talked about doing with our children? Yeah, we're doing it. I can't possibly do worse than stuff like this." (Thankfully, he agreed that I could certainly at least top that, or I likely wouldn't have married him.)

 

ETA: I should add that while math is indeed my strong subject, and of course we aren't ever going to be college level experts in every subject. But as homeschooling parents, we get outside help when we need it. If you can't do third grade math, okay, you get your child a tutor, or video lessons, or your other half teaches math, or whatever. But how does a public school teacher get away with not being able to do the math?

[Ausmumof3]

I don't know, in most of the ones I've seen a lot of people got it right. Unless I was getting to wrong...

[MomtoCandJ]

There are those of us who just don't understand it, no matter how hard we try. I have done tutoring sessions with lots of different people using different methods and I still don't understand it.

[Anne in CA]

I am glad someone else opened this can of worms because I resist making a similar vent frequently. Somehow we cannot seem to hire an employee with enough knowledge of fractions to apprentice as a baker. I worked 9 hours in the sandwich shop today and came back to the other restaurant and made a batch of rye bread. Why could the four people who were working at this restaurant not make 9 loaves of rye bread? Because none of them understand the concept of fractions well enough to use the scale and measure the ingredients. They cannot make any kind of recipe that involves measuring large amounts on the scale. For two years we have searched high and low and cannot find people who can do this. Dh and I and our 15yo dd have to measure the dough for every batch of bread, cookies, doughnut dough, you name it. I would like to start a Christmas candy business to compliment this business, but the reality is that candy is even more complex chemistry than bread and probably no one can do that either. :banghead:

 

Being a baker is a high paying blue collar job when someone is trained. A baker can support a whole family. It is redonkulous the the public school system robs people of the opportunity to made a good living in a blue collar environment by allowing people to graduate from high school without this skill. I can only imagine that construction is the same way. In light of the last two years I am shocked there is a construction industry in this country at all.

[blondeviolin]

I don't know. I think most people's knowledge of the formal rules of grammar is at an elementary level level too.  They can identify parts of speech. They can read and write well, and recognize grammar problems while reading. But how many adults really know and can explain the meanings of terms like misplaced modifier, gernunds, infinitive and interrogative and appositive phrases and so on.  I'm sure most folks can read up on it and then teach it. But it's not intuitive, even though we use or experience complex language every day.  Math, beyond the basics, is more intimidating.

 

I am completely guilty of being lazy about math.  My GRE score for verbal was more than double my math score.  And I married an engineer, so it's easy for me to just ask rather than figure it out.  But the other day I was buying something online- a fishing lure- and asked, without even thinking about it, "what's bigger, 1/3 or 7/16?"  He replied, "Seriously?"  and by then I'd figured it out. But, ouch.

 

 

Most adults cannot write well.

 

 

Gonna agree with EKS here.  Most adults CAN'T write well.  I cringe every time I read "I seen," "he should of," "how does that effect me?" and on and on.  When I went to school we were constantly harassed about the difference between there, their, and there as well as when to use "too" and a slew of other things.  It's sad that alot is as common as it is.

 

I didn't take geometry in high school in the 80s.  I graduated summa cum laude with a B.S. in a difficult field and have a master's degree in a medical related field.  I struggle greatly with fractions and math in general.  Some people struggle with math.  It doesn't mean they are stupid or should get a grip. 

I don't think that makes a person stupid.  Rather, I think it shows a weakness in our educational system.  And like it's been noted, it's not just a math deficiency.  My own husband wouldn't even know how to pronounce "gerund," let alone what one is.  

 

We homeschool because I want better for my kids.

[Kiara.I]

One popped up in a group that I follow. It's simple order of operations stuff. And more than 90% of the comments are all WRONG. Not just wrong, but confident in their answer "because PEMDAS." OMG.

 

Linky to the meme?  I'm curious whether I can solve it now!   :laugh:

[MyThreeSons]

I don't know. I think most people's knowledge of the formal rules of grammar is at an elementary level level too.  They can identify parts of speech. They can read and write well, and recognize grammar problems while reading. But how many adults really know and can explain the meanings of terms like misplaced modifier, gernunds, infinitive and interrogative and appositive phrases and so on. 

 

Count me among those who can generally read and write well, but cannot explain the meanings of many of those terms you mentioned. I am a stickler for using proper grammar, though. 

 

(And yes, I am acutely aware that as soon as I post that previous sentence, all kinds of mistakes will pop up in my writing.)

[Sarah CB]

the stupid acronym that is supposed to teach order of operation:

Parentheses Exponents Multiplication Division Addition Subtraction

 

The problem is that it creates the false impression that multiplication must be performed before division and addition before subtraction, which is nonsense, since those pairs of operations are of equal rank.

 

 

My ds is in school this year and learned the acronym.  It took a lot of explaining for him to believe me when I told him that he could do division before multiplication and subtraction before division.

[blondeviolin]

Linky to the meme? I'm curious whether I can solve it now! :laugh:

I can't link the picture, and I'm too lazy. The problem is to simplify 6^2÷2(3)+4. Out of many responses on just the local page, only a handful properly answered correctly. Most answered 10 (which, I get how) and were very adamant that they were right.

[MomtoCandJ]

58???

[kiana]

As far as actually explaining order of operations, the way I like is:

 

Multiplication (with integers) is repeated addition/fast addition. Since it's a more powerful form of addition, it comes before addition. 

Exponentiation (with integers) is repeated multiplication/fast multiplication. Since it's a more powerful form of multiplication, it comes before multiplication. 

Parentheses, then, are when we want to change the default order, and so they come first of all.

 

Division is multiplication by the reciprocal, so we lump division and multiplication together and treat them the same. Subtraction is addition of the negative, so we lump them together as well. 

[happypamama]

As far as actually explaining order of operations, the way I like is:

 

Multiplication (with integers) is repeated addition/fast addition. Since it's a more powerful form of addition, it comes before addition.

Exponentiation (with integers) is repeated multiplication/fast multiplication. Since it's a more powerful form of multiplication, it comes before multiplication.

Parentheses, then, are when we want to change the default order, and so they come first of all.

 

Division is multiplication by the reciprocal, so we lump division and multiplication together and treat them the same. Subtraction is addition of the negative, so we lump them together as well.

Really like this way of explaining it! I think PEMDAS is helpful, if kids know to do M/D and A/S left to right, but that explanation helps to show how PEMDAS is derived.

[Ausmumof3]

I would have said 10 though I can see how 58 is correct. And I did higher level high school maths and got As. I forgot that it's the inside of brackets that are solved first not just brackets in general. It's a poorly written expression though. If it was written 3(6^2/2)+4 then it would be clear. A bit like when you are really unsure where to put a comma - it's better to rewrite the sentence as the point of communication is to convey meaning not test people on their knowledge of the rules.

 

Ok, maybe I'm going to outsource high school math after all.

 

I actually don't think this means most people don't understand basic math in the same way that not knowing how to do fractions does. It's to do with conventions of writing it. If you have the people who are getting it wrong do a word problem with the same figures and write out their own equation or choose their own method I think they'd probably get the right answer.

[Ausmumof3]

Just wanted to add (because yes this has been bugging me all morning) that it isn't that I didn't know that multiplication and division aren't equal that tripped me up but because I was taught to fully expand any brackets before touching anything else. So the first thing would be to calculate 2(3). Not because multiplication comes first but because brackets are expanded first. Second is indices so 6^2. Then you have

 

36/6 + 4.

 

So I wouldn't presume that everyone getting 10 thinks that multiplication and division don't have equal place in order of operations.

[Kiara.I]

Well, first time through I got 10, too, and had to re-check to get 58.

Basically, the way it's written is just plain awful!  If they want the answer to be 58 then don't WRITE it in a way that's confusing!

 

One could just as easily write

6^2x3      +  4

   2

[regentrude]

Just wanted to add (because yes this has been bugging me all morning) that it isn't that I didn't know that multiplication and division aren't equal that tripped me up but because I was taught to fully expand any brackets before touching anything else. So the first thing would be to calculate 2(3). Not because multiplication comes first but because brackets are expanded first. Second is indices so 6^2. Then you have

 

36/6 + 4.

 

So I wouldn't presume that everyone getting 10 thinks that multiplication and division don't have equal place in order of operations.

 

But in this problem

 

6^2÷2(3)+4

 

there is nothing to "expand" in the bracket because the only thing in the bracket is a lonely number 3.

The brackets are merely there to indicate that we are dealing with a factor 3 and not a division by the number 23.

 

The rule  for parentheses is to first perform the operation that is inside the parentheses, not to multiply parentheses with stuff outside it.

[Ausmumof3]

Yeah I realise now. Hence my mistake. I was always taught to get rid of brackets first. But I'd say that's what most people getting it wrong are doing. I might be wrong of course.

[EKS]

I'll bet if it was written with a times sign (x) or a dot or an asterisk people would still be getting 10 because it is just so tempting to divide 36 by 6.  Much less messy than dividing 36 by 2 and then having to multiply by 3.  

 

 

[Farrar]

I am glad someone else opened this can of worms because I resist making a similar vent frequently. Somehow we cannot seem to hire an employee with enough knowledge of fractions to apprentice as a baker. I worked 9 hours in the sandwich shop today and came back to the other restaurant and made a batch of rye bread. Why could the four people who were working at this restaurant not make 9 loaves of rye bread? Because none of them understand the concept of fractions well enough to use the scale and measure the ingredients. They cannot make any kind of recipe that involves measuring large amounts on the scale. For two years we have searched high and low and cannot find people who can do this. Dh and I and our 15yo dd have to measure the dough for every batch of bread, cookies, doughnut dough, you name it. I would like to start a Christmas candy business to compliment this business, but the reality is that candy is even more complex chemistry than bread and probably no one can do that either. :banghead:

 

Being a baker is a high paying blue collar job when someone is trained. A baker can support a whole family. It is redonkulous the the public school system robs people of the opportunity to made a good living in a blue collar environment by allowing people to graduate from high school without this skill. I can only imagine that construction is the same way. In light of the last two years I am shocked there is a construction industry in this country at all.

 

This reminds me of a lot of experiences in the deli asking for a third of a pound of something or other. When we had lunch at a relative's recently, she told how she had asked the deli guy to cut the sandwiches into thirds. He cut the first one in half and then cut one of the halves in half, thus making it into a half and two fourths. She was like, no, actually, can you do thirds. He was like yes, but then did the same thing. So she gave up.

[Anne in CA]

If you asked some of my employees to cut one of our sandwiches into thirds in front of me, I would have a fit, lol. I have three employees that I am CERTAIN could not grasp that concept.

[Ausmumof3]

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/orderops2.htm

I spent way too much time reading and it seems a lot of people were taught (like me) that multiplication by juxtaposition takes precedence which gives the answer of 10. Apparently even different programming languages process this stuff different ways.

 

You have to scroll to the end of the link to get to the relevant bit anyway.

 

If I understand everything I read correctly anyway.

[LucyStoner]

The order of operations Parenthesis, Exponents, Multiplication, Division, Addition, Subtraction

Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally. I always understood at My Dear and Aunt Sally were together, not that multiplication must be done before division or subtraction after addition.

[LucyStoner]

It's not just high school. The last place I worked FT I was the only person on staff who wasn't a paid professional writer or the ED who could write half way decently. I spent a portion of each week helping my coworkers with their writing once they realized I could and would help them without any digs at their writing. These were all college graduates. Don't even get me started on how bad people were at counting down the till.

[EKS]

It's not just high school. The last place I worked FT I was the only person on staff who wasn't a paid professional writer or the ED who could write half way decently. I spent a portion of each week helping my coworkers with their writing once they realized I could and would help them without any digs at their writing. These were all college graduates. Don't even get me started on how bad people were at counting down the till.

 

Yes!  

 

I worked as a medical/scientific writer for a few years after my son was born.  Much of my job consisted of rewriting what other people had written. All of them had college degrees and many (if not most) of these people had graduate degrees.  

 

And I'm not just talking about grammatical errors or misplaced commas.  I'm talking about things being written incoherently or worded in such a way that they weren't actually saying what they meant to say.  And I'm talking about native English speakers here.

[Chris in VA]

Ok. Confession--I don't know how to do it. (I get 10)

 

Walk me thru, please.