Fourth edition of TWTM...here's your chance to weigh in!

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I like that you included some specific recommendations but would also love to see a discussion of the fact that other books are good too. I think you talked about this in one workshop. You said that people tended to overvalue what they considered an expert viewpoint and undervalue their own ability to make choices.

 

We started homeschooling outside the US. The books on Rome and Greece and the Middle Ages were typically British and often OOP. They weren't going to appear on booklists or in curriculum guides because they weren't ready available in the US. But some were great books.

 

How to use books in homeschooling. I feel like a lot of you get moms want to plug their kid into an app (free of course) or a website and have the algorithm teach their kid. I think a discussion of some of what Jim Trelease covered in The Read Aloud Handbook (no longer updated) or some of the research regarding the learning value of hand written notes would be useful.

 

A discussion on how to evaluate an online course and determine if it meets your goals and needs. Ditto with coops. It seems that a lot of the unhappiness with outsourcing stems from a disconnect between expectation and reality.

[Classically Minded]

In the 3rd edition, a lot of the books recommended have been hard to find, so an updated book list for reading and history would be helpful.  All About Spelling is an unbelievably amazing program that helped my dd who had issues spelling.  We love just about anything we try from Memoria Press, they have a lot of new things that I would like to hear your thoughts on.  Notgrass history is another that would be worthy of a recommendation in middle and high school.  The logic stage history wasn't something we wanted to try per the recommendations in the 3rd edition, so we are going to try out Human Odyssey.  It seems like the middle grades history is needing more guidance and/or recommendations.  We LOVED the SOTW - there is nothing better for the early years in my opinion, wish there was something like that for the logic stage.

 

A lot of the resources/extras were also hard to find or no longer for sale, so that would need to be updated.

 

In the earlier years, it really helped reading the WTM website about sample schedules from different families.  I would also like a section on the chronically ill homeschool mom and some tips and ideas.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Oh, I think it would also be wonderful to address the topic of math and science and shirking it either because it seems daunting or because mom isn't comfortable with it or because the kid isn't showing signs of being naturally gifted in math.  There are reasons to stick with math, to work to find a curriculum that provides enough support to both mom and kid while also providing adequate instruction.

 

I think that it is easy to fall prey to thinking that no one ever needs advanced math or that math is something you are good at or not (as opposed to something that you've learned or not).  I also think that those of us who are drawn to the ideas in WTM may have a natural inclination towards math and literature.  It is easy to fall out of ones comfort zone when you need to teach a child something you aren't fluent in or when their ability exceeds yours.  But few of us would accept the idea of just giving up on reading because the kid wasn't a "book person."  Inability in math closes so many doors.

[Nan in Mass]

Robotics club should be mentioned, I think. Every engineering admissions program I saw contained a bit about wanting students who could use tools, not just do schoolwork. Robotics club helps with this. And with finding friends and mentors.

 

Nan

[ktgrok]

I will say this, the Logic of English Foundations A had the BEST games and exercises for phonemic awareness out of any program I've tried. Made a HUGE difference to my preschooler, who was really struggling with that. She also had speech issues, that may have complicated things but either way LOE worked wonders. We only did the first half and by then she'd caught up to where I thought she should be. 

 

We didn't do the handwriting parts. 

 

We are now using AAR but we would never have been able to do any program without the phonemic advances she made in LOE. 

[FairProspects]

Imagine.more and others--are you at all familiar with how the Logic of English course (Denise Eide) uses the O-G system? Any thoughts on how this works for struggling learners?

 

It moves WAY too fast. It is like asking a dyslexic to drink from a fire hose. And I have stealth dyslexics who find Barton too slowly paced. They would die with LOE.

 

Also, combining all aspects of LA is not the right approach for many students with LDs, particularly if dysgraphia is present. The neuropsych specifically instructed us to separate out grammar, spelling, handwriting, writing composition, and reading instruction into separate lessons, which is the opposite approach from LOE.

[FairProspects]

I own the 1st and 3rd editions and have read the 2nd. I just checked both books I have and neither includes a section on adapting a classical approach for students with learning disabilities or other special needs. I love TWTM as a general framework and it's definitely had a huge influence on my homeschooling over the past 8 years. The specific materials you've recommended, however, are not necessarily the best "fit" for my kids. My youngest child in particular needs programs designed as interventions. OPGTR, FLL, WWE, etc. are all great programs for neurotypical kids (and I've used the latter two successfully with my older students) but they won't meet the educational needs for my youngest child. 

 

Recommendations I would like to see in the 4th edition under Special Needs Homeschooling:

 

Memoria Press' new "Simply Classical" program

Lindamood-Bell LiPS, Seeing Stars, and Visualizing & Verbalizing (available through Gander Publishing)

Barton Reading System

Dancing Bears (reading) and Apples & Pears (spelling) from Promethean Trust

Verticy Writing

From Talking to Writing by Terrill Jennings and Charles Haynes with the student workbooks (available from Landmark Schools)

Dianne Craft's dysgraphia resources

Ronit Bird's math

 

I'm still at the beginning of helping a student with extensive SN's so hopefully moms with more experience will weigh in.

 

This is a great list but Sopris Rewards products and Six Minute Solution Reading Fluency products should be added to it.

 

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I would also really like to see you incorporate some of what you talk about in Homeschooling the Second Time Around.  I know that you have reservations about sharing what are other people's stories, but this is such a powerful talk.

 

I think that with a lot of the research published about the success of homeschooling, there is a feeling that if things are rough, then you must be doubly a failure.  It is so important to know that other people have struggles and failures too.

 

One of the best things I experienced in my homeschool journey was being at a friend's house the day she found out that her high schoolers had cheated on a test.  I love this family.  They are wonderful.  And it was so helpful to know that kids in wonderful families also did boneheaded things.  Years later, when our own family had a bump in the road, I knew that it was something we could recover from.

 

Homeschooling can feel very high stakes.  If my kids can't answer questions on Smarter than a 5th Grader, it must be my fault for not teaching them.  When there is conflict over school or a tough assignment, there is less distance between parent and teacher.  When they don't have a wonderful science extra curricular team, it's because we haven't founded one.  That can be a pretty intense pressure.

 

(I am happy to say that I do try to sing more.  Because you're right, if mom's singing, then things cannot be too bad.  Even if it is off key Taylor Swift.)

[Melissa in Australia]

No suggestions but I just wanted to say that following and slightly tweaking TWTM has worked really well for my Dyslexic children. They did lots and lots of things orally, and I scribed heaps, but it worked with great success in the end.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I love lists

 

 

Thank you so much

 

 

 

 

[Haiku]

We really enjoyed the Project Passports and Time Travelers from Homeschool in the Woods. They are not strictly secular, but we made them work.

 

To continue in my special-needs vein, please include more hands-on resources, such as the Homeschool in the Woods items, for kids who learn best that way.

[kirstenhill]

I only looked at LOE one time, but I noticed a lot of circling the correct word rather than writing out the word. I felt this undermined the whole OG method.

 

It seems like a lot of people have commented about LoE already.  We've used both Foundations and Essentials and found them helpful for our family.  I wanted to address this "circling" issue since a few people commented about it.

 

I will respectfully say that I think Slache or others who thought they noticed a lot of circling probably did not get the big picture about LoE.  There are a few circling activities in Foundations (for beginning readers, ages 4-7), but they are a small part of the total program and many of those "circling"  or "matching" activities have to do with phonemic awareness (choosing words that rhyme, etc).  There are some that are related to reading as well -- practicing words the student has typically already written during a lesson. 

 

In Essentials, the only time I remember circling words coming into play did not have to do with circling the "correct word".  In the review lessons (one per five lessons), students have the opportunity to circle or mark words they would like to practice.  These are words that are already spelled correctly, that the student has already seen/written for a spelling list.  Once the student circles or marks the words they want to practice, the teacher is supposed to help the student practice these words in writing (perhaps making index cards for review) or with games, etc.

 

While I am a fan of LoE and think it would make a good inclusion in a list for the next edition, I think whichever spelling programs you choose to recommend should include one or more O-G based options.  I struggled with spelling growing up and my kids don't seem to easily grasp spelling either.  Discovering the rules-and-phonograms approach to spelling has been a godsend for us.

[kirstenhill]

Sorry for two posts in a row, but since my other comment is on another topic, I thought I would start a new post.

 

I will agree with others who say that the 4 year cycle made way less sense to us for science than for history.  We love the 4 year cycle for history, but science is such an interdisciplinary subject that I am not sure in the elementary years it is necessarily to strictly study one topic in science for the whole year.  When I tried to spend a whole year on one type of science, my kids were going crazy!   Perhaps a "science cycle" recommendation for those who are so inclined, but also include suggestions for an interdisciplinary approach?

 

 

[Butter]

The LOE people are using their Google  :lol:

 

(And, honestly, their invasion makes me LESS likely to use it... and I have a dyslexic child!)

[Renai]

Going back to the method vs materials focus. There are already so many sources for getting curriculum reviews -  not just online, but real books - that WTM can focus on the method. I would hate to see it get so caught up in what to use, that a person thinks they can't homeschool classically without certain materials. That is what happened to me. I couldn't get certain materials, and I strayed away from the classical method.

 

In the classical method, we should be able to pick up whatever material fits our kids and use it in a classical manner - if we know how. That was what reeled me in in the 1st edition, before getting caught up in the "what to use." If we know how to use materials, the what-to-use isn't so important. The emphasis on how to homeschool classically and adapting whatever one has to do so, should remain the focus. Not a curriculum list. Someone else mentioned the trade books vs texts. I agree with that. Trade books are more flexible and conducive to adaptations.

[Susan Wise Bauer]

The LOE people are using their Google  :lol:

 

(And, honestly, their invasion makes me LESS likely to use it... and I have a dyslexic child!)

 

Let's not go there, please. This is not helpful. I asked for opinions, and will weigh the source for each one.

 

SWB

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding what to amplify:

 

I remember the first time I read "Remember, reading is easy."  It just about crushed me, because my DD was not picking up reading easily at all, and she was already older than the age in which that comment came up.  Parents tend to be a bit insecure about things like that, and I was no exception.

 

It took me a long time to infer that probably was meant by that, and only after I started purchasing Scott Foresman LA curricula that I inferred that what was probably meant was, 'teaching reading does not have to be as complicated as modern LA curricula make it seem.'  That was undeniably true and tremendously helpful.  It's good that people have resources to teach reading that do not drive the teacher crazy with A) Insecurity and B) Major overwhelmedness.  

I've heard a few others over the years comment on that section of WTM, and I think that amplifying on it would be very helpful.

 

Also in general, maybe a section on letting kids move forward faster in some areas of LA than others would be helpful.  For us, if I had waited for DD to get good at spelling before teaching composition, she would not have been able to write an essay until around 7th grade, and that would have been a real shame as she is, paradoxically, an excellent composer of writing although borderline dysgraphic during her late grammar/early logic stage years.  I was a natural speller, and so it was really difficult for me to accept that my kid could read avidly but somehow not learn to spell from either that or phonics or spelling lessons.  The best decision I ever made in homeschooling was to continue with copywork long past the age when it is recommended, and keep trying different approaches to learning to spell, and most importantly, not to slow down teaching history and literary composition just because this kid could not spell and could not be persuaded that learning to spell was anything but oppressive.

[redsquirrel]

Susan, I will be a tribute, er...volunteer for personal stories if you need some. I consider myself a fairly mainstream person...well...mainstream in the NE. I have learned that much from these boards, lol. But dh and I are both college educated, middle class people. When I meet strangers and they find out I homeschool, they are often surprised because "you and your kids seem so normal."  :lol:  DS1 transitioned to our local public high school and it was seamless.

 

We have used TWTM from the beginning and the message I got from it is 'you can do this'. 

 

I would be happy to write a few sentences for you. I am not the person to write about homeschooling with special needs etc, but as someone with typically bright middle class kids. I know its not that exciting, but I think there are a lot of people like me who think homeschooling isn't for people like that. They think of it as a last ditch sort of thing. TWTM helped me see that it is a valid choice from the start.

 

That said, I think the 'last ditch' people need their own support. I have done a few "ZOMG I think I have to homeschool and I have no idea what to do" triages in my time.  Now that might make an interesting lecture, lol.

 

 

[RosieCotton]

On hearing about all the great stuff in the first edition of TWTM, I'm excited to say I've just bought it! :hurray:

 

Can't wait for delivery. :)

 

I've met a family who are just starting on their research of home school phase since their kids are still in diapers, and I will be buying them a copy or two as well.

(They have been glitzed by all the online curriculums out there and think that's all there is to it  . . .)

[Farrar]

Full disclosure... I never got around to reading the third edition, though the reminders here about how the logic stage section changed and making me think I should.

 

I second a lot of the new curricula additions like Beast Academy. I would love to see MEP in there and the two free chemistry programs from ACS. We did the middle school chemistry program this year and it was excellent. It might be nice for free materials like those to get a special mark to help people find them.

 

I agree with whoever said that the science and history tie ins have never fully made sense, but I think it's as good a system as any for science and now there's a whole slew of curricula designed to accompany those levels, so I don't think it makes sense to change it. I guess that's one of the problems in recommending a resource like BFSU though, which takes a totally different approach in organizing the science content. Still, I think BFSU is a solid resource and that the idea of doing biology first is so tangential to the core of classical education that it seems like it should be in there.

 

But the suggestion I like the most - and I don't know if it's possible because I have read the publisher asked for them to be included - is that I would love to see the times get tossed out. In general, I think a lot of the attitude and advice that I saw you present at the Homeschooling the Real Child presentation when I had the honor to see you at the VA Homeschoolers conference a couple of years ago was a vibe that I would love to see a little more of in TWTM. I know that those were two different things in a way, but I think just the approach of this is the ideal I'm presenting, but if you take a detour or have to adapt things, that's okay, is something I would like to see in TWTM. Even more of a sense that it's about those big picture goals of classical education.

 

 

[redsquirrel]

Full disclosure... I never got around to reading the third edition, though the reminders here about how the logic stage section changed and making me think I should.

 

I second a lot of the new curricula additions like Beast Academy. I would love to see MEP in there and the two free chemistry programs from ACS. We did the middle school chemistry program this year and it was excellent. It might be nice for free materials like those to get a special mark to help people find them.

 

I agree with whoever said that the science and history tie ins have never fully made sense, but I think it's as good a system as any for science and now there's a whole slew of curricula designed to accompany those levels, so I don't think it makes sense to change it. I guess that's one of the problems in recommending a resource like BFSU though, which takes a totally different approach in organizing the science content. Still, I think BFSU is a solid resource and that the idea of doing biology first is so tangential to the core of classical education that it seems like it should be in there.

 

But the suggestion I like the most - and I don't know if it's possible because I have read the publisher asked for them to be included - is that I would love to see the times get tossed out. In general, I think a lot of the attitude and advice that I saw you present at the Homeschooling the Real Child presentation when I had the honor to see you at the VA Homeschoolers conference a couple of years ago was a vibe that I would love to see a little more of in TWTM. I know that those were two different things in a way, but I think just the approach of this is the ideal I'm presenting, but if you take a detour or have to adapt things, that's okay, is something I would like to see in TWTM. Even more of a sense that it's about those big picture goals of classical education.

 

I agree with most of what Farrer says, as usual, lol. But I also think that the issues with the times needs to be stressed. It think they do more harm than good, for real. I would say that at least twice a year a new person will post here that she is a failure b/c she isn't meeting the time limits. Or that their homeschooling has been miserable because they are forcing their kid to work for the times listed. I have also personally had conversations with homeschoolers who ruled out using TWTM because they heard there are unreasonable time recommendations etc. I have had to convince a couple people that I am not standing over my kid with a whip making sure he is doing at least an hour of history three times a week etc.

 

Maybe change it to average ranges like...20 mins-1 hour three times a week? Maybe the publisher would be open to that? 

 

[Roadrunner]

Oh no, please don't toss out schedules. Having never homeschooled, or taught in school, or attended an Americal school, it was absolutely essential for me to look at them and get a sense about what the school day should look like and how to balance our subjects. It gave me a ton of confidence that I was on a right track even if I don't exactly follow it. I check those schedules periodically as a sanity check on what we are doing. I can understand that for people with a lot of experience, or former teachers it isn't as useful, but for the rest of us, please keep them there.

[Butter]

Oh no, please don't toss out schedules. Having never homeschooled, or taught in school, or attended an Americal school, it was absolutely essential for me to look at them and get a sense about what the school day should look like and how to balance our subjects. It gave me a ton of confidence that I was on a right track even if I don't exactly follow it. I check those schedules periodically as a sanity check on what we are doing. I can understand that for people with a lot of experience, or former teachers it isn't as useful, but for the rest of us, please keep them there.

 

The problem I've seen is that people give up because the times given are not reasonable, particularly at early ages, but they are still trying to do the subjects that long because the book says to.  I think the pp's idea of have ranges is probably a good compromise.

 

I've also heard from people that TWTM is a good idea, but they rejected it because it only works for highly verbal kids and their "proof" is that SWB and her kids are highly verbal (whether that is accurate or not).  Maybe having blurbs about how it works or something in various homeschools with various types of kids (late readers, SN, math-focused, etc.) would be useful since that would show that it's really not just for a certain "type" of kid.

 

I don't know if it would fit, possibly in a section on adjusting homeschooling for SN kids, but my son has always had a much, much, much higher comprehension level than reading level.  The school psychologist recommended immersion reading (we use Fire + Audible, but there are other ways to do immersion).  He is going to be in 8th grade and can read the books recommended for his stage/year because he does the immersion reading.  It allows him to learn without the struggle of super slowly plodding through the books.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

How about including a section on homeschooling on a budget?  You could list all the awesome free resources out there, like Old_Fashioned_Education and Ambleside_Online , among others.  And there's a good book called Homeschooling on a Shoestring.

 

I think that this is an area where knowing how to adapt to the books available at your library can really help.

 

I've been around the boards long enough to remember the furor over the Kingfisher Illustrated History of the World when it went out of print right after the 1st edition was published.  There were things I like more about that edition that more recent editions.  But in reality, the more recent edition and a few pages of kings' lists would have been fine.  (It was elementary school!)

 

A few years later, I watched people pass by tables full of good books (especially history and literature) because they weren't on their Tapestry of Grace list.  I understand wanting to try to find the books scheduled for your curriculum (after too many substitutions you aren't really following the curriculum anymore).  But it also can be really binding.  That is one of the things that I really loved about the 1st edition.  It wasn't so much a matter of getting just the right books with just the right worksheets.  It was about cultivating a curiosity and interest in history, literature and the world around you.  

 

When we studied ancient Rome, we happened to live in Europe.  My kids knew about Rome itself, but they also learned a lot about the destruction of Varus' legions by the Germans, because that was a site we were able to visit.  

 

I think that the trends of homeschool curriculum can move very rapidly.  When we started homeschooling 13 years ago, I would not have predicted that my kids would use web conferencing to take Latin classes with teachers who had advanced degrees in classics.  Nor would I have planned for one kid to take online classes on Japan and Korea through Stanford.  I rather blithely made reference to coops, even though that option has sometimes been rather frustrating.  I have no idea what will be an option by the time my youngest graduates.  I do know that the curiosity and ability to read and understand that we cultivated early on paid dividends in ways that I didn't anticipate.  

[Sebastian (a lady)]

BTW, I would love to see a book on homeschooling high school that gathered together some of the incredible experiences of the folks on the high school board.

 

There has been so much goodness shared there over the years.  Alas, much of it is pretty impossible to find now that the ability to tag posts is restricted to the OP.  It would be really cool to bring a lot of that information together between two covers.  Not the specifics of curriculum, but the frame of mind and approaches to working with older teens.

 

 

[Roadrunner]

The problem I've seen is that people give up because the times given are not reasonable, particularly at early ages, but they are still trying to do the subjects that long because the book says to.  I think the pp's idea of have ranges is probably a good compromise.

 

I've also heard from people that TWTM is a good idea, but they rejected it because it only works for highly verbal kids and their "proof" is that SWB and her kids are highly verbal (whether that is accurate or not).  Maybe having blurbs about how it works or something in various homeschools with various types of kids (late readers, SN, math-focused, etc.) would be useful since that would show that it's really not just for a certain "type" of kid.

 

I don't know if it would fit, possibly in a section on adjusting homeschooling for SN kids, but my son has always had a much, much, much higher comprehension level than reading level.  The school psychologist recommended immersion reading (we use Fire + Audible, but there are other ways to do immersion).  He is going to be in 8th grade and can read the books recommended for his stage/year because he does the immersion reading.  It allows him to learn without the struggle of super slowly plodding through the books.

She does give some ranges in the book. I agree that it is important to emphasize that those are suggestions, not plans set in stone. It's nice to know what she believes is the ultimate set up for an education. For me it's invaluable. 

 

I think different methods suit different kids. I agree that sections on homeschooling for SN kids can be very helpful.

The problem with public schools is they try to design something that fits everybody, so I understand that not all homeschool methods (including TWTM) can fit everyone, so I adjust accordingly. That's where parents come in. You can't put in 10 different schedules to anticipate every situation. That's where we as parents come in, I think. 

[Hunter]

I like science rotations, especially when using lots of trade books instead of a single textbook.

 

What I liked about TWTM when I first read it back in 1999 or 2000, was that it was a trade book that taught me to use trade books.

 

Personally, I find it easier to use rotations instead of integrated, when using trade books.

[Amy M]

I am really excited about another edition! I am extremely grateful for TWTM, it opened up a whole new world of homeschooling for me, so thank you.

 

I don't have a lot to add as I still feel like a newbie. I will say that I love both the how-to sections as well as recommendations of different curricula. The how tos helped me understand the whys and hows as well as the big picture. I appreciated those sections when I first read through the book, they helped me understand what a homeschooling week/year can look like. They Also gave me a sense of I can do this. As much as those sections where helpful at the beginning of my homeschool journey they continue to become more useful as time goes on and I feel more empowered to create/tweak curriculum to better fit my kids needs. Those how tos have been invaluable in helping me know how to do that. I agree with others that I would love it if you added more how-tos. One audio lecture I would love added to the book in written form would be the lecture on literary analysis at various stages.

 

I do also love the sections of recommended curricula, that was crucial in helping me feel like homeschooling was possible. I loved the idea of classical education but would have been lost without the curricula recommendations. I needed a ton of hand holding when starting out and those sections accomplished that for me. Again thank you for TWTM and this forum!

 

:iagree: I agree with every sentence written here and want to add my words of profound thanks for TWTM and the forums you host for us. They have changed my life and my kids' lives. I also want to emphasize a disclaimer that I am only in my fourth official year of homeschooling, so I have a lot to learn on so many levels that I feel inadequate to address your book. I will however, dare to throw out some quick bullet points, obviously all my opinion:

 

• I agree that you need to emphasize somewhere near the beginning of the next edition that you host these forums. I had NO idea until three years after I read TWTM, and these forums have been so incredibly helpful!
• I join the vote to remove SWO and replace with AAS (and/or R&S spelling for more independent explicitly phonics-based spelling and maybe for those already using R&S grammar). On my blog I reviewed some spelling curricula I bought or tried. I concluded that SWB must have been a natural speller (I am, as well) and thus couldn't relate to the struggling speller. Perhaps I was unfair, but until my ds1, I didn't stress about spelling. I used ABeka, since that's what I used for phonics. He needed something more explicit. A natural speller could use any spelling program, but the struggler needs something O-G. Maybe remove or replace the Spelling Power rec as well.
• I also felt a bit like a failure when none of my children have learned to read at 4. You mention that they should be starting to read by 4 or 5. My current 4yo doesn't even have all her letter sounds down yet. I have been busy lately... But I do understand that you were trying to reduce the intimidation to teach children to read. I however felt very little intimidation in teaching my kids to read because I picked it up easily as a child; but then I realized that while it may be "easy" to teach, it isn't always easy for them to learn. I never knew until this year that there also might be vision tracking issues involved. Like others mentioned, how do we know when a child's struggles are "normal," and when to seek help or further evaluation? I wrote some of my angst and questions here on the forums.
• I respectfully disagree with the experienced math advisor Spy Car on two matters: first, that you don't emphasize conceptual thinking in grammar stage math, rather, fact memorization. Your 3rd ed clearly emphasizes teaching with manipulatives first and understanding the concepts that way, then adding fact memorization, which I agree is very important. You also recommend living math on Fridays, like Kitchen Table Math. I have tried three of your math curriculum recommendations and feel them all to be very good. I also have the Rightstart Math games. SM was too abstract for us at times, exactly as you said, and I felt a maturity gap for my son, as well as that SM leaves fact memorization completely up to you, and we needed more help than that. We love MUS, and I also like ABeka, though I think it emphasizes drill over concepts too much. Secondly, I do not feel Beast Academy deserves mention, certainly not as a main math program, but perhaps as a supplement. Even for my advanced math kid, and we did love the comic book style, the workbook was too advanced in parts and doesn't provide enough practice in real nuts and bolts getting the facts down. That was my impression of BA, but we haven't used a full grade level. I am also not in love with MM. You have to stop the curriculum recommendation list somewhere, and I feel your math list is pretty good, though I suppose the debate on that could be endless.
• TWTM doesn't defend very well why grammar is important from first grade up through 10th or 12th. I'm doing it, cuz you said to  :coolgleamA: , but it did seem unimportant in 1st, probably 2nd, and I wondered if we would be better off just starting in 3rd or 4th. You recommend Beechick's book A Strong Start in Language, but on the subject of grammar, you two have different philosophies. If you don't edit TWTM on this subject, perhaps you could just weigh in on this thread where I asked for some more help in understanding why it's so important to good writing to start so young on grammar instruction.
• Please do mention the audio companion for FLL. It's so cheap, and it is really cute when your toddler sings the state of being verbs along with your older student.
• Your times spent on reading (total) do seem excessive in TWTM. The "average" child couldn't do that much IMO.
• Finally, I can't seem to internalize the LA recommendations in TWTM, specifically teaching writing across the curriculum and reading organically with history, rather than using basal readers with comprehension workbooks. I have repeatedly asked on the forums for advice in an attempt to get it through my thick head how to do WTM reading and writing. Links are below. I got answers all over the place on what expectations people had of their children--all using WWE or WTM methods! When I read your introduction to the WWE textbook, your system of writing made so much sense to me! But when I actually try to implement a reading journal, a history notebook, a science notebook, with narrations, dictation, and copywork in all, it just seemed like a LOT! And it seemed to squelch whatever fledgling love my son felt for those subjects to connect writing with them. If I just used your WWE workbooks however, I felt like the subjects were so disjointed, and I really wanted them to be interrelated and to save my own time. The WWE workbook dictations were too difficult for my struggling speller, and he disliked reading snippets of stories. I felt like a failure while using the workbooks, because some of it was too hard; but I also felt like a failure when I stepped away and just used the textbook writing across the curriculum, because it was so much more work for me, and I wasn't sure I was getting the results I would with the wkbk. HELP, please! What are appropriate expectations for how much to expect per day when writing across the curriculum, and what to do if the child is struggling with dictation, but not necessarily with narration or copywork? These are examples of my questions, but the links below flesh out the struggle more.

How to Transition to WTM reading and writing

How much narration per day/week?

ds7 says he's "not good" at history (or my failure to figure out writing across the curriculum per WTM)

How important is it that I write the narration down for my child?

WWE2 dictation struggles: what do I do?

Help me: appropriate expectations for 3rd grade reading and writing?

 

Thank you so much for TWTM and these forums!

[Amy M]

Xtramath.org is a wonderful, FREE online program to help drill math facts. If you do include a math supplement or online supplement section, xtra math would be great. The iPad app is $5.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I wonder if instead of putting a schedule at the end of each chapter (ie, grammar language arts, grammar history, grammar science) there could be a chapter in the grammar level where you address what it might look like in practical application.  You could have a couple grammar stage schedules that were models (standard 5 day, compressed 4 day, block schedule, ie).  I think that this might emphasize that the schedules are samples and are suggestions, not a measure of what "doing it right" would look like.

 

I remember asking you at a Midwest convention once about the amount of writing expected of 7-9th graders and if they should be writing 1-2 pages in literature, history AND science every day.  I was so relieved when you said that was more than enough and we could cut back.  (Actually, the boys didn't believe me when I said that SWB told me they didn't have to write so much.)  So clarifying what total written output across the curriculum should look like would be helpful.

 

I know a lot of people who have unexpectedly come into homeschooling.  They have finally gotten fed up with a school, they have moved to an area with bad school options, they are moving and are between homes for several months, they have had to go take care of a sick relative or something else has provided a catalyst.  (I even had a bunch of friends who were evacuees after the Japanese earthquake and tsunami.)  These aren't families who were going to homeschool conventions with babes in arms, chomping at the bit for the day to come when they could start kindergarten.  These are families who are overwhelmed and filled with trepidation.  They want a great educational option for their kids, but it can be so much to absorb.

 

It would be awesome to have some kind of a quick start guide for families like this.  Sort of a boiled down set of fundamentals to work on while you are figuring things out and picking curriculum and having books delivered.  It might be good for school while traveling or summer work too.  Math may be harder for something like this, but pared down suggestion for lit, history and science are a good fit.

 

Also, I remember loving your description of going to the library as a child and the different types of books your mom made each of you get.  I can't remember if this was in WTM or if it was only in one of your workshops.

[Haiku]

I remember the first time I read "Remember, reading is easy."  It just about crushed me, 

 

Sorry to continue to harping, Susan. I'm just doing it because I like you and I like your book and I like your education ideas, and I have also struggled a lot to implement them with my son and, although I have found a groove that works for us, have sometimes felt down on myself for not being a WTM purist.

 

I have mentioned a few times on the forums here that had I waited until my son could do all the things that you said he should be able to do before starting first grade, he would have been at least 10 (if not older) when we finally started! I think that's another aspect of learning struggles you should address: what to do with kids who can handle content but not the associated academic skills of writing and reading. My son has kept up just fine with my daughter in history and science (this coming academic year is the first I will separate them in science), but he has not done nearly the amount of writing and independent reading that she has. If I tried to tie content to his reading and writing ability, the content would have been way below his intellectual level.

 

Here is, again, a place where I think a mention of alternate, less word-centered resources is a good idea. I know that you mean for your version of a classical education to be a certain thing and that if you tweak it too much it no longer resembles that thing, but I agree with a previous poster who stated that most materials can be used in a classical way if you have guidance on how.

 

I'll also add that Apples and Pears, Megawords, and Writing Skills (from EPS) have been life savers for my son. So has a teacher-created resource called Reading Olympians (followed up with Reading Warriors and Reading Trojans), a not-super-fancy and clearly homemade but effective and inexpensive roots program I bought from the website Teachers Pay Teachers.

[Milknhoney]

I own the second edition so these may be things you already addressed in the third:

 

For kindergarten, I followed your advice that a math curriculum wasn't needed. I think that would work for someone who isn't as regimented as I am. I like to systematically make sure I'm checking all the boxes so to speak. I ended up buying a book halfway through the year and I think it was much more helpful than just trying to freestyle it.

 

For math, Saxon is your curriculum of choice and you gave a lot of information on it. I believe Singapore was mentioned in the list of resources but not a lot of information was given. I settled on Miquon and then decided after a couple of years that my son really needed a mastery based program and we have been very happy with Singapore. I think an expanded explanation of Singapore and a comparison of the styles of the two big curriculums would be helpful to parents trying to figure out which one is best. 

 

I have been using almost all of your recommendations in WTM and just about everything PHP publishes and it has all been great so far!

 

Going into sixth grade this fall, I did end up rejecting your recommendation for pre-logic because it seemed too teacher intensive. My daughter is starting first grade and I really needed to find as much that my son could do independently as possible. I settled on Bluedorn. Along that line of thought, it would be very helpful to have information on how to juggle two or more kids. 

 

I agree with the previous suggestion to put all of your lectures into a book. I am just more of a book person - it's more efficient to read than listen. Would definitely buy it! I also agree with previous suggestion to give more guidance on high school. We still have a few years to go but we'll be looking for that information before we know it.

[Guest]

Imagine.more and others--are you at all familiar with how the Logic of English course (Denise Eide) uses the O-G system? Any thoughts on how this works for struggling learners?

Susan. They're my favorite precisely because they're very gentle, fun, thorough, and versatile. Denise did a great job making a curriculum that didn't just service natural readers, and one can do as many or few enrichment activities and games as needed for the student, without it feeling punitive or boring.

[Guest]

Oh, and Treasured Conversations just has to make it in there. Karen did such an amazing job and it fits a real need in writing and grammar instruction that many other courses couldn't meet to satisfaction.

[texasmama]

Oh, and Treasured Conversations just has to make it in there. Karen did such an amazing job and it fits a real need in writing and grammar instruction that many other courses couldn't meet to satisfaction.

I agree.  :)

[Guest]

I will say this, the Logic of English Foundations A had the BEST games and exercises for phonemic awareness out of any program I've tried. Made a HUGE difference to my preschooler, who was really struggling with that. She also had speech issues, that may have complicated things but either way LOE worked wonders. We only did the first half and by then she'd caught up to where I thought she should be.

 

We didn't do the handwriting parts.

 

We are now using AAR but we would never have been able to do any program without the phonemic advances she made in LOE.

We have done both programs and I'm doing Foundations again with my four year old, and skipping the handwriting as well. He just isn't ready, but I have seen great progress in his enunciation since beginning, even skipping handwriting and just focusing on sandpaper letter tracing.

[Guest]

The LOE people are using their Google :lol:

 

(And, honestly, their invasion makes me LESS likely to use it... and I have a dyslexic child!)

I bet they're coming on here because they feel as strongly about it as I do. Really, it's an excellent program. I've been using it for almost four years, and with three vastly different students. It's not a magic bullet, but it is extremely thorough and flexible. My kids look forward to it every day, even Essentials.

[Guest]

And TREASURED CONVERSATIONS. Really. I could go on and on about these two programs and their excellence.

[Nan in Mass]

Draw Squad

 

I would like to see this included. The Drawing with Children book was hard for me to figure out how to implement and once I did get it figured out, my children disliked it. I think it is probably good at teaching the sort of drawing that involves drawing something you are looking at, but my sons wanted to draw castles and other things imaginary. My oldest and his ps friends drew happily until about 4th grade, when suddenly their drawings looked babyish to them. They began saying they couldn't draw and refusing even to try. It was very sad. Draw Squad prevented the younger two from doing the same thing. It teaches how to draw in 3D by using perspective and shading. It also teaches other art principles. It is fun and easy to use. I have heard that there are youtube videos now that match the book? There is an annoying amount of rarayoucandoit, but the method worked well for us. It could be done in a few minutes a day or a larger chunk once a week, making scheduling easy.

 

Later, they used the middle school Artistic Pursuits drawing book, which was open-and-go easy and very effective. That taught my children to do a decent job of drawing something in front of them. Then they practiced in natural history. The one drawback is that it is expensive. http://www.artisticpursuits.com/2114bk_jh1.html

 

Now, I have two twenty somethings who grab a pencil and draw when they want to describe something. This has little to do with art. It is more like learning to write versus learning creative writing. It is another method of communication, an important, useful one. For those who are headed for a STEM field, this is super important. It also would be nice for those whose children are not word-oriented or struggling writers. I let mine draw some of their great books book projects.

 

I would do Draw Squad at about 9 or 10, and the Artistic Pursuits book about 7th or 8th grade. I don't have enough experience to be sure how universal these ages are. You might or might not want to include the AP book, but please do consider Draw Squad.

 

(We loved the Klutz painting book, too. It worked well and was fun and easy to use.)

 

Nan

[purpleowl]

On the topic of computers, I think there's room in a classical education for introducing programming concepts earlier than 11th or 12th grade.  Code.org has some terrific courses for young children to learn the very basics of how programming works, while not trying to get them to learn an actual programming language, which they can do later once they understand the underlying concepts.  (The board game Robot Turtles presents the concepts as well, a great tool for non-readers.)  It seems similar, to me, to having young kids read children's versions of classic literature so that they will already have an idea of the basics when they come around again in later stages.

 

I will likely buy your 4th edition regardless of what you decide to include or exclude.  But thank you for being interested in our thoughts! :)

[Nan in Mass]

Independent Project

 

Thank goodness you put this in the book. It saved us. My children did multiple projects. TWTM explained how to turn an interest into a course. Perhaps you could emphasize that this is where students get to use those hard won skills in an adult way and actually teach themselves something, the way they will for the rest of their lives? And how important it is to learn to break a lengthy project into pieces and schedule them? And how important it is for older students to have some say about what they are learning? This is their opportunity to learn whatever they want. Perhaps you could expand the section to describe more than just research papers and add in travel or science experiments or the development of inventions or art or music compositions? With research and a paper, of course, to make it a school project. Or perhaps you have already done that? This would help the people with less word-oriented children, as well.

 

I see the project as a strength of TWTM. Between this and the directions for learning anything with the spine/outline/bunny trail, and the heavy emphasis on learning the academic skills needed to learn as an adult and communicate those discoveries to others, I found TWTM an extremely flexible form of education. I would like to see this emphasized even more in the book. I know you say it, but it took me years to figure it out, despite reading the book multiple times. Or maybe it was just me being stupid...

 

Nan

[Liz CA]

Have been out of homeschooling for too long to recommend much but wanted to say that ten years ago a struggling speller learned how to spell with "Spelling Workout." The same reluctant writer learned how to put paragraphs together with "Writing Strands."

 

Your resources list will probably be many pages longer than it was before with so many wonderful new choices in material.

 

But here is something I can contribute: Your encouragement throughout the book, the many alternatives you listed (I think I had either the 1st or 2nd ed) and the positive vibe while acknowledging that there will be days you want to just quit, were priceless. Your book changed my son's scholastic career and encouraged me to return to college years after my first degree.

 

 

[swellmomma]

Regarding what to amplify:

 

I remember the first time I read "Remember, reading is easy."  It just about crushed me, because my DD was not picking up reading easily at all, and she was already older than the age in which that comment came up.  Parents tend to be a bit insecure about things like that, and I was no exception.

 

 

I felt that way too.  My now 11 year old was 10 before he started being able to read.  In his case it was tracking and convergence insufficiency combined with a moderate phonological delay due to his delayed speech.  It was hard work for him to learn to read, he had to train his eyes to actually function correctly while working with an SLP on the actual phonologic issues.  Nothing easy at all.

 

Now he reads really well, and his phonological delay has improved and been replaced with surface dysgraphia.  So he can read bu not write, and when he does write there is major issues with spelling, syntax, etc in addition to the physical struggle to actually write brings.  

 

Nothing about teaching him is easy.

[Pen]

Susan,

 

Another thought--

 

I know that for classical ed and as a matter of brain development you favor a strongly print-rich curriculum, but my ds has dyslexic / dysgraphic type problems so that did not work well (basically did not work at all) for him.

 

We entered into WTM and this website via SOTW which he listened to as the Weiss audio editions, many times, and got a tremendous amount out of that.  After a year off for American history and 20th century history, he has picked up with world history again using the Audible audio editions of your Norton published history books for older readers.  My ds is at logic stage, and this works well for him now at the content level, but he cannot do that level as print material, nor can he do the sorts of essays or summaries that you suggest.  Even timelines due to dysgraphic issues seem to be a bit dodgy.  OTOH a lot is there in his head, for example something about Nero playing the violin while Rome burned came up, and ds was clear that it was impossible for that to be literally the case since violins were from the Renaissance period, not from ancient Rome.

 

I think for kids with learning challenges it is important for parents to know that some of them may do better with content at their level even if the classic approach in terms of print reading and writing cannot be used.  That is, it is not just an issue of what material to go toward, but how to possibly modify the general approach.

 

When I think about my ds doing well with audio materials, I also think about "classical" as in many ways an oral/aural tradition, such as listening to Homeric tales, not reading them, or drawing out geometrical figures on a sandy beach, perhaps, rather than using a book.

 

Do you want to know the reading program that worked for my ds?

 

I'm also thinking that some of the things people want to see in WTM, I thought were already there, like a list of when to take the PSAT, etc.   Maybe it is that things are hard to find in it.

 

And, a last thought, the lists of exact costs on materials seem to me like they take space and do not necessarily fit what one finds when one goes to buy things.  Maybe a $ -$$$$$ type range like in some hotel or restaurant guides to give an idea of what when you did the edition is relatively more or less costly rather than the exact figures.

 

 

I'd rather see more there in terms of curriculum review and what fits what sort of child.  I would not assume that everyone can get reviews online nowadays.  Some of us still live in places with relatively little internet access.

[YsgolYGair]

 

• Finally, I can't seem to internalize the LA recommendations in TWTM, specifically teaching writing across the curriculum and reading organically with history, rather than using basal readers with comprehension workbooks. I have repeatedly asked on the forums for advice in an attempt to get it through my thick head how to do WTM reading and writing. Links are below. I got answers all over the place on what expectations people had of their children--all using WWE or WTM methods! When I read your introduction to the WWE textbook, your system of writing made so much sense to me! But when I actually try to implement a reading journal, a history notebook, a science notebook, with narrations, dictation, and copywork in all, it just seemed like a LOT! And it seemed to squelch whatever fledgling love my son felt for those subjects to connect writing with them. If I just used your WWE workbooks however, I felt like the subjects were so disjointed, and I really wanted them to be interrelated and to save my own time. The WWE workbook dictations were too difficult for my struggling speller, and he disliked reading snippets of stories. I felt like a failure while using the workbooks, because some of it was too hard; but I also felt like a failure when I stepped away and just used the textbook writing across the curriculum, because it was so much more work for me, and I wasn't sure I was getting the results I would with the wkbk. HELP, please! What are appropriate expectations for how much to expect per day when writing across the curriculum, and what to do if the child is struggling with dictation, but not necessarily with narration or copywork? These are examples of my questions, but the links below flesh out the struggle more.

How to Transition to WTM reading and writing

How much narration per day/week?

ds7 says he's "not good" at history (or my failure to figure out writing across the curriculum per WTM)

How important is it that I write the narration down for my child?

WWE2 dictation struggles: what do I do?

Help me: appropriate expectations for 3rd grade reading and writing?

 

Thank you so much for TWTM and these forums!

 

Hiya, I know it's not my opinion that you are after, but I hope you won't be offended at my offering it. I'm replying to your last point. The WTM method is a LOT if it is implemented exactly, and as Susan points out in her article on schedules here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/schedules/

 

There are rocks and hard places in everything including classical home education - situations where things might not work perfectly. And that's okay. Let me ask you this: what is best for your son? Is it best that you follow WTM exactly, that you write across the curriculum, that he love history and science, that he master dictation? For your struggling speller, what is best? YOU need to make decisions for your children. The WTM is a guide; it is not the Bible. You also really need to step back away from this notion of failure - education is not a straight road with no bumps. Much of education is evaluating and re-evaluating, or teaching something one way and then having to come up with a different way because the first way just did not stick. It seems that neither teaching across the curriculum is working well for you, nor using the workbooks alone. So, step away and look for an alternative. One alternative might be using the hardback WWE Instructor's Guide rather than the workbooks. Another might be forging your own path - not using snippets of books such as in the workbook, but just read aloud one book over the course of a month or more, and have the kids narrate and do dictation from what is read each day - or just once a week. Then, teach history and science as you have been, but have them narrate what they learned over the course of the week, rather than each day. These types of tweaks are okay. Whatever works.

 

I had a look through your blog, and really enjoyed reading about the work that you all are doing in Africa. But, in reading it, I also learned something about you: You've got a LOT on your plate! You might want to take a very realistic look at what you, one person, can do, and accept yourself and your limitations. Being a missionary is awesome - I wish I were one, but if there's one thing I've learned about missionaries so far, they work HARD. Having a baby is awesome - but again, HARD WORK. So, don't put so much "failure" pressure upon yourself. You are obviously working very hard to give your kids a fantastic education, even while living in a dangerous place, doing hard work. I probably don't have to say this, but I will anyway: the Lord knows your situation, and cares about your schooling. You can always ask Him what to do about writing / curriculum / implementation issues, and trust Him to lead you. I'm sure Susan is a nice person, but she doesn't know your situation. God does. Trust Him. :)

[LauraBeth475]

Flowering Baby is easier to use than Slow and Steady Get Me Ready, and very gentle imo.

 

I strongly agree with the idea of focusing more on methods (and the rationale for curriculum choices).  Unlike when the first edition came out, homeschool curriculum is everywhere now.  Knowledge of how to homeschool, in the nuts and bolts way that is particularly laid out in in a lot of the PHP audio is a lot harder to find. 

 

I'm really curious when the new edition will be ready?  I had just convinced myself to by a 3rd edition for my tablet, as I do more of my teaching and organizing from it each year.  Now I'm wondering if I should hold off a bit?

[Nan in Mass]

Homeschooling curriculum is everywhere, I agree, but so much of it is difficult to use, or half the book covers things we've done before, or the emphasis is wrong for a classical education, or it is uninteresting, or tries to be too interesting and fails and just winds up being extra work where we would be better off with something dry but efficient. (My children did not appreciate this last at all. Schoolwork was schoolwork and they knew some was just going to be no fun. They wanted that part to be efficient.) TWTM recommendations had a much better chance of succeeding for us. I would hate to see them removed. More specific instructions for modifying a curriculum to work for your particular children would be nice, though. I did eventually figure this out, but it took years.

Nan

[texasmama]

Homeschooling curriculum is everywhere, I agree, but so much of it is difficult to use, or half the book covers things we've done before, or the emphasis is wrong for a classical education, or it is uninteresting, or tries to be too interesting and fails and just winds up being extra work where we would be better off with something dry but efficient. (My children did not appreciate this last at all. Schoolwork was schoolwork and they knew some was just going to be no fun. They wanted that part to be efficient.) TWTM recommendations had a much better chance of succeeding for us. I would hate to see them removed. More specific instructions for modifying a curriculum to work for your particular children would be nice, though. I did eventually figure this out, but it took years.

Nan

The bolded caught my eye and I wanted to stand from my chair and shout, "YES!".  I don't know that Susan can fix that in her book, but good grief, one should not need to get a college degree in curriculum understanding to implement a homeschool program.  

[Julie of KY]

Okay, here are my initial thoughts:

 

I like general how to without getting too specific. I find when you lay out sample schedules that I get annoyed. If feels like you are saying "this" is the right way. I get annoyed when I read things like in 4th grade, the student WILL do ...; there are lots of reasons why I might choose not to do this in fourth grade (or 9th or any other). I'd like to see it presented more of a guideline with why you might not follow as well. Maybe I want to combine my elementary kids. Maybe I've got kids with learning disorders. Maybe I have kids with wildly discrepant apptitudes - flying through math, while struggling with writing. 

I like to be told that here are the steps of progression and a general guideline as to when these should be mastered on average, but listed more as steps rather than this long at each step or ages.

 

I love your lecture series for conferences, but I have a hard time finding that information in your books.

 

I like here are some questions to ask. I like big idea outlines - do this in primary grades, middle grades, high school.

 

I like lists of "good" curriculum that I can go check out for myself and then pick what suits my family the best. I don't find prices and where to order from so helpful as it's pretty easy to google that information.

 

I've always felt you are more a history/English/literature sort of person and I love your recommendations here as well as foreign language and arts, but generally I've prickled when I read your math/science recommendations. (This coming from a math/science person).

 

More generallities on special needs and where to look for resources.

Barton reading and spelling

AoPS - books and online courses (though with a warning that the online courses move rapidly)

Beast Academy

Singapore math

MEP

Miquon

Zaccarro math books to supplement

Balance Benders

Bravewriter

Teaching the Classics

Mystery of History

I love a lot of the logic books from Prufrock Press.

 

It'd be nice to have more of list of where to find advanced/AP high school courses online.

 

How to write a transcript and how to do course descriptions.

 

 

[Nan in Mass]

Memorizing - Again, maybe you said this and I missed it, but it would have been useful to have been told that the idea behind memorizing something is to get it into you head somehow (possibly with nmeumonics (sp?)) and then review BEFORE it evaporates and you have to go to all the effort of getting it back into your head again, slowly lengthening the interval between reviews.

 

And in case it helps someone, when the children were small, each child had a folder and every morning, we "did folders". At that time, we did all the drills and memorizing for all the subjects - math facts, dictation, sightsinging drill, kings, song or poem being memorized, ... All the little things. Sometimes we read aloud afterwards to encourage everyone to move quickly through the work. If we mamaged to get through folders, math, and Latin, I considered it a school day. Usually, there was a lot more in the day, but that gave me a baseline.

 

Nan

[YsgolYGair]

Adding more of my own two cents in: 

 

Though I am looking forward to getting the first edition with fewer curriculum recommendations, I really do love the book lists. It is so nice to be able to go to TWTM, look up King Tut, and know that these will be good, solid read alouds / reading material for my age group. I like that they come complete with notes and even warnings where appropriate. I have a lousy library system, so I have to Amazon most of my books. Knowing that I will get something quality, even though buying sight unseen, is worth a LOT to me. 

 

Another really great resource - amazing, in fact - is Memoria Press. Their literature book choices and curriculum, with information, extensive questions, and crafts for the early grades, are SO well put together. My dad, who has a Master's in rhetoric and teaches college English, was reading Barn Dance to Daniel and going through the MP questions, and he commented that they were the same types of questions he'd be asking when teaching his college students. This was in reference to their Junior Kindergarten program!