ATI questions

[albeto.]

One great big difference between ATI and the rest of Jesus-believing people is that ATI follows a hermeneutic invented and authored by one single man, Bill Gothard....

 

 

There's an old chestnut that you can prove anything with an out of context verse from the Bible...

 

Thanks guys, but I'm finding myself saying "yeah but... the same thing applies here, and here, and here." Actually, I typed out a whole post, but thought better about revealing what a geek I am for taking the time to write all that out. In any case, I don't intent to bring it back to the argument that all religion is cray cray (love that word too, any time to use it is the right time, eh?), but to find out where the [understandably subjective] line is drawn between normal and cultish with regard to a general belief system that maintains certain claims to be accurate and true based on faith alone. Each example Tibbie gives can be (and has been, and is still today) used against Catholics and Mormons, and other Christian sects. Wrong interpretation, check. Charismatic leader popping up suddenly, modifying mainstream theology, taking everyone down the wrong path, check. Condition followers to ignore certain logical and reasonable arguments in favor of maintaining a belief based only on faith, check. Subjugation against women [can I include LGBTQ?], check. The idea that bible believing groups that can leave personalities (cult leaders) and group memberships behind, travel to another place, and meet perfect strangers who are reading the same thing while remaining autonomous individuals and hurting nobody is a claim easily refuted with numerous examples of the exact opposite. And I can't help but wonder, if there were no internet, if scandal didn't get shared at the speed of electrons, would the ATI community spread like the Mormon community did? Slowly, by virtue of large families, generally keeping to themselves until they had sufficient numbers and had been established for enough generations to integrate into society. Would their ideas be just weird, wrong, and would people argue only if they were really "real Christians," not whether or not they are a cult? 

[LucyStoner]

[MyThreeSons]

I hope you know that non-Gothardites sometimes have tubal or vas reversals and subsequent pregnancies for reasons that have nothing to do with religion or quiverfull or any of that.

 

I hope you also know that people have reasons for not adopting instead of attempting reversal that have nothing to do with Gothard, and are not about being unable or unwilling to love and raise adopted children.

 

I am truly sorry if I offended anyone. I didn't mean to do that. I guess I didn't explain myself very well. 

 

The two families in question absolutely went through the reversal process because of Mr. Gothard's teachings. They believed that they had sinned when the husband had a vasectomy, and that by reversing it they would gain God's favor. When the babies were born, they were held up as "miracle" babies. They were, without a doubt, treated as extra-special by their own families and by many others in the church. 

 

I believe that reasons for adopting or not, reversing or not, and having large families or not, are very personal, and that each couple must come to their own conclusion as to what is best for their family. To be told by someone else that you are in sin because you come to a different conclusion than they did is wrong, IMO. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thanks guys, but I'm finding myself saying "yeah but... the same thing applies here, and here, and here." Actually, I typed out a whole post, but thought better about revealing what a geek I am for taking the time to write all that out. In any case, I don't intent to bring it back to the argument that all religion is cray cray (love that word too, any time to use it is the right time, eh?), but to find out where the [understandably subjective] line is drawn between normal and cultish with regard to a general belief system that maintains certain claims to be accurate and true based on faith alone. Each example Tibbie gives can be (and has been, and is still today) used against Catholics and Mormons, and other Christian sects. Wrong interpretation, check. Charismatic leader popping up suddenly, modifying mainstream theology, taking everyone down the wrong path, check. Condition followers to ignore certain logical and reasonable arguments in favor of maintaining a belief based only on faith, check. Subjugation against women [can I include LGBTQ?], check. The idea that bible believing groups that can leave personalities (cult leaders) and group memberships behind, travel to another place, and meet perfect strangers who are reading the same thing while remaining autonomous individuals and hurting nobody is a claim easily refuted with numerous examples of the exact opposite. And I can't help but wonder, if there were no internet, if scandal didn't get shared at the speed of electrons, would the ATI community spread like the Mormon community did? Slowly, by virtue of large families, generally keeping to themselves until they had sufficient numbers and had been established for enough generations to integrate into society. Would their ideas be just weird, wrong, and would people argue only if they were really "real Christians," not whether or not they are a cult? 

 

I think you're confirming my final point, which is that those who think mainstream Christian groups are cults and religion isn't a function of the rational are going to see all of it the same - Gothard and the Pope in the same category...I was just arguing that these opinions wouldn't leave the province of atheists for awhile yet.

 

As far as whether ATI would have spread -- do you really think large swaths of people could be convinced to have 10 to 20 children and homeschool them?

 

[Guest]

Yeah, really, Tibbie! Some of us just like sex and hate birth control :D

 

*ahem*. Moving on now, don't mind me, it's nap time.

[Guest]

I admit, I snorted at this.

[LucyStoner]

*ahem*. Moving on now, don't mind me, it's nap time.

 

 

Is THAT what the kids are calling it these day?!

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yeah, really, Tibbie! Some of us just like sex and hate birth control :D

 

*ahem*. Moving on now, don't mind me, it's nap time.

 

LOL!

 

Without the decision to have as many children as possible, incidentally fecund families still don't get 20 kids most of the time. Gaps in fertility due to extended breastfeeding or maternal fatigue or hormonal changes or marital...lassitude...nah. You don't get 20 by 40 unless you're on a mission.

 

[DawnM]

I seriously doubt it. First off, there are two distinct camps in the SBC - the bigger one is extremely liberal and arminian, theologically. The other is moderately conservative, and calvinist theologically (this is the one Derick and Jill would be aligned with if I am going by conference attendance and sermons they have linked to, and what I, myself, was raised in). I have never seen any evidence that the Dillard family has been anything but biblically solid and very normal, evangelical Christian over the years.

 

Then again, my own exposure to ATI has been from real, professed, non-insane believers. I can only assume they must have just filtered the ATI crazy points because if they were the poster children for it is have nothing but good things to say.

 

I'm no expert with the crazy. At all. But I do spend a lot of time with authentic, sweet, staunch Christians and that is where I have run into association with families like the Dillards and Seewalds. All real life reports have been extremely positive.

 

The greater Southern Baptist church is liberal?  Can you please define what your definition of liberal is?  I think the SBC would be considered fairly conservative overall.

 

And I want to clarify to anyone who may not be familiar with arminianism vs. calvinism, but it does not define liberal vs. conservative at all. I have known many who are Wesleyan/Arminian who are very conservative and I have known those of the Calvinistic persuasion who were quite a bit more liberal.

 

Dawn

[Katy]

The greater Southern Baptist church is liberal?  Can you please define what your definition of liberal is?  I think the SBC would be considered fairly conservative overall.

 

And I want to clarify to anyone who may not be familiar with arminianism vs. calvinism, but it does not define liberal vs. conservative at all. I have known many who are Wesleyan/Arminian who are very conservative and I have known those of the Calvinistic persuasion who were quite a bit more liberal.

 

Dawn

 

I took that as she meant liberal compared to ATI.

 

Southern Baptist women do things like wear bikinis, get graduate degrees, and work if they want to.

 

[LucyStoner]

I admit, I snorted at this.

 

You know, what would Jesus do if he didn't have "the right people" to tell others what he "really said"?  

 

There's no limit to human hubris!  

[Guest]

The division in the SBC are generally classified as Arminian/Lib and Calvinist/Con when you're talking about men representing the various theological schools, in particular. But there is definitely a lot of generalizing in that. I cannot say I've met too many people I'd consider more theologically traditional in terms of soteriology, in particular, who would properly be classed as Arminian.

 

I agreed it's you on Wesley, but he wasn't inside the SBC, either (he split from the Methodists). It's accepted that the Convention was calvinist, especially pre-1920, then tilted more and more theologically liberal on a number of doctrinal points, and has been shifting back the other direction in the last two decades. Right now is as close to a 50/50 mix as I've seen in my lifetime. I'm also no longer a member of the SBC, though I was baptized into it and have missionary family who were involved their entire lives.

 

I also agreed with you that, as a denomination, it falls on the moderate to slightly conservative side of the spectrum. As with Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and everyone else, there are variations inside each denomination thar make them hard to class so up and down. My bad for the generalizing, as it was indeed a very oversimplified tidbit. Baptists are a complicated bunch as denominations go, and the different camps still have 90% or more of their basic doctrine in common. Some of those differences are immensely important, some are peanuts.

[albeto.]

I think you're confirming my final point, which is that those who think mainstream Christian groups are cults and religion isn't a function of the rational are going to see all of it the same - Gothard and the Pope in the same category...I was just arguing that these opinions wouldn't leave the province of atheists for awhile yet.

 

I do, it's true, but mainstream Christians don't. It's the mainstream Christian opinion I'm curious about. Mormons don't believe their church is cultish, but it fits the criteria used above, and plenty mainstream Christians believe it (and argue it) today. ATI-ites (really, they need an identifying name, goat herders?) would make the same argument Mormons make against the same accusations lobbied against them as are lobbied against Mormons. But clearly Mormons are not considered cultish by many mainstream Christians. Make sense?

 

As far as whether ATI would have spread -- do you really think large swaths of people could be convinced to have 10 to 20 children and homeschool them?

 

Why not? Mormons did this when they were relatively new. They were pioneers to the wild, wild west for religious freedoms. They had large families, they educated at home, they bulked up their population when no one was looking. I mean this tongue in cheek of course, but I should say yes, I can totally imagine Gothard's followers could have conceivably continued having large, seemingly happy, joyful families, keeping under the radar until their numbers were noticeable. Arkansas might have become the next Utah - a state largely associated with one, distinct religion due to population growth and seemingly good public manners. Now, I think all bets are off because of the internet. These beliefs are being criticized publicly before their numbers have had a chance to really grow. But in a society in which the young generation is leaving the church, growing communities in one relatively quiet, quaint state? Why not? 

[Guest]

I took that as she meant liberal compared to ATI.

 

Southern Baptist women do things like wear bikinis, get graduate degrees, and work if they want to.

 

HA. Indeed. Even Reformed Baptists do those things, which is the denomination I am closest to and where I'd stake membership if I had to. And we are considered more traditional and conservative than the SBC.

 

Moi: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformed_Baptists

 

I mean, I watch anime, wear makeup, and vote without asking my husband's input. There's no end to the hussydom ;)

[DawnM]

The division in the SBC are generally classified as Arminian/Lib and Calvinist/Con when you're talking about men representing the various theological schools, in particular. But there is definitely a lot of generalizing in that. I cannot say I've met too many people I'd consider more theologically traditional in terms of soteriology, in particular, who would properly be classed as Arminian.

 

I agreed it's you on Wesley, but he wasn't inside the SBC, either (he split from the Methodists). It's accepted that the Convention was calvinist, especially pre-1920, then tilted more and more theologically liberal on a number of doctrinal points, and has been shifting back the other direction in the last two decades. Right now is as close to a 50/50 mix as I've seen in my lifetime. I'm also no longer a member of the SBC, though I was baptized into it and have missionary family who were involved their entire lives.

 

I also agreed with you that, as a denomination, it falls on the moderate to slightly conservative side of the spectrum. As with Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and everyone else, there are variations inside each denomination thar make them hard to class so up and down. My bad for the generalizing, as it was indeed a very oversimplified tidbit. Baptists are a complicated bunch as denominations go, and the different camps still have 90% or more of their basic doctrine in common. Some of those differences are immensely important, some are peanuts.

 

 

I did not grow up SB but attend one now.  I am most definitely NOT Calvinist and grew up very Wesleyan/Arminian and was very careful to make sure I didn't need to sign any Calvinist theological line in order to join the SB church.  

 

Our church does not take a firm stand either way and I have met both at our church.  But we are most definitely not a liberal church nor have I met anyone who would be considered liberal.

 

Now, liberal to me may mean something different than liberal does to you or others.

[MyThreeSons]

What does ATI promote that isn't drawn from scripture in some way? If "cray cray" is determined by the use of scripture to develop beliefs and practices, what's to stop someone from claiming Catholics or Quakers or Pentecostals aren't crazy? They each draw from different interpretations of the bible, and follow a history of practices that are unique to their communities. What makes ATI different? 

 

I haven't read ahead to see if anyone else has posted this. Sorry if it's a repeat.

 

This blogger has taken a look at Mr. Gothard's 49 Character Qualities, which are a core teaching of the program. While the desirable quality and its opposite are understandable for the most part, the definition he gives often leaves you scratching your head. But then when if you actually take the time to read the verse that is supposed to support the concept, you will begin to get a sense of what many refer to as Mr. Gothard's "scripture twisting". 

 

https://yewnique.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/bill-gothards-49-character-qualities/

Edited May 28, 2015 by MyThreeSons

[Guest]

We may mean different things on that point. Doesn't matter though, I'm glad you found a church that is a good fit! I love mine as well, and I firmly believe God allows denominational differences so we don't all strangle one another over preference issues. Not every believer is best suited to every church body, and that's okay.

 

We can argue the finer points of theology another day, because they are important, but it's more of an iron sharpening iron kind of discussion and not tossing heretics off boats ;)

 

I need to make dinner and finish reading the ATI paper. Thank you for the discussion and resources, ladies!

[Guest]

I haven't read ahead to see if anyone else has posted this. Sorry if it's a repeat.

 

This blogger has taken a look at Mr. Gothard's 49 Character Qualities, which are a core teaching of the program. While the desirable quality and it's opposite are understandable for the most part, the definition he gives often leaves you scratching your head. But then when if you actually take the time to read the verse that is supposed to support the concept, you will begin to get a sense of what many refer to as Mr. Gothard's "scripture twisting".

 

https://yewnique.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/bill-gothards-49-character-qualities/

I'll read through this, too. Thank you ma'am!

[DawnM]

We may mean different things on that point. Doesn't matter though, I'm glad you found a church that is a good fit! I love mine as well, and I firmly believe God allows denominational differences so we don't all strangle one another over preference issues. Not every believer is best suited to every church body, and that's okay.

 

We can argue the finer points of theology another day, because they are important, but it's more of an iron sharpening iron kind of discussion and not tossing heretics off boats ;)

 

I need to make dinner and finish reading the ATI paper. Thank you for the discussion and resources, ladies!

 

 

My point wasn't to argue theology, my point was to say that Arminian doesn't equal liberal, nor does Calvinist equal conservative.

[MaeFlowers]

The division in the SBC are generally classified as Arminian/Lib and Calvinist/Con when you're talking about men representing the various theological schools, in particular. But there is definitely a lot of generalizing in that. I cannot say I've met too many people I'd consider more theologically traditional in terms of soteriology, in particular, who would properly be classed as Arminian.

 

I agreed it's you on Wesley, but he wasn't inside the SBC, either (he split from the Methodists). It's accepted that the Convention was calvinist, especially pre-1920, then tilted more and more theologically liberal on a number of doctrinal points, and has been shifting back the other direction in the last two decades. Right now is as close to a 50/50 mix as I've seen in my lifetime. I'm also no longer a member of the SBC, though I was baptized into it and have missionary family who were involved their entire lives.

 

I also agreed with you that, as a denomination, it falls on the moderate to slightly conservative side of the spectrum. As with Anabaptists, Presbyterians, and everyone else, there are variations inside each denomination thar make them hard to class so up and down. My bad for the generalizing, as it was indeed a very oversimplified tidbit. Baptists are a complicated bunch as denominations go, and the different camps still have 90% or more of their basic doctrine in common. Some of those differences are immensely important, some are peanuts.

 

I have to admit, I thought that you initially implied that the SBC was/is a liberal church on the spectrum of Christian denominations. I think(?) this is what DawnM is referring to, as well. It kind of threw me because I have never heard anyone refer to Baptists, particularly the SBC as liberal. I also thought that you implied that SB are not fundamentalists. I'm totally confused.

 

Anywho, I found this chart that shows the theological spectrum from liberal to conservative. Thought it applied here.

[happypamama]

I have to admit, I thought that you initially implied that the SBC was/is a liberal church on the spectrum of Christian denominations. I think(?) this is what DawnM is referring to, as well. It kind of threw me because I have never heard anyone refer to Baptists, particularly the SBC as liberal. I also thought that you implied that SB are not fundamentalists. I'm totally confused.

 

Anywho, I found this chart that shows the theological spectrum from liberal to conservative. Thought it applied here.

Thank you for posting that chart!  I felt pretty comfortable with the doctrines of the church where I grew up, but there is not a church of that denomination close enough to me now to be a real church home (occasional Sunday mornings, yes, but nothing beyond that).  But I hate trying to find a church that fits our beliefs.  That chart looks like it could help me in finding a similar church.

 

We have a new Foursquare church very close by.  We have been a couple of times and have liked it okay, but we were there for "special Sunday" both times -- once for their grand opening service and once for Easter -- so it wasn't necessarily representative of their typical sermons.  I wish I knew where the Foursquare denomination fell on that chart.

[Seasider]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

Oh no. How horrible. I am so sorry you experienced that. The people who treated you that way certainly misrepresented Jesus.

[albeto.]

I haven't read ahead to see if anyone else has posted this. Sorry if it's a repeat.

 

This blogger has taken a look at Mr. Gothard's 49 Character Qualities, which are a core teaching of the program. While the desirable quality and its opposite are understandable for the most part, the definition he gives often leaves you scratching your head. But then when if you actually take the time to read the verse that is supposed to support the concept, you will begin to get a sense of what many refer to as Mr. Gothard's "scripture twisting". 

 

https://yewnique.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/bill-gothards-49-character-qualities/

 

I don't mean to be dense, but the "twisting" of scripture seems to be more about "sloppy application" of scripture. I can point to scripture used in the Roman Catholic church that people considered terrible twisting. I was at one time very devoted to my Catholic faith, so I maybe it's easier for me to see the accusation as being a matter of difference of opinion (I never considered it to have been twisted myself, despite the sincere assurances of the "right" interpretation offered by others). As I think about this, I wonder if accusing a denomination of being a cult is no different than accusing a denomination of being legalistic (another popular accusation against Catholic interpretation of the bible). The thing is, from the inside, one's arguments are no less personal and insightful and divinely inspired than anyone else's. So there's got to be something else, hasn't there? 

 

On a related note, I "know" this blogger from elsewhere on the web. I always found her to be articulate in her arguments, and having a kind personality. I hope she's doing well. :)

[albeto.]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

I can't imagine. 

 

:(

[MyThreeSons]

I don't mean to be dense, but the "twisting" of scripture seems to be more about "sloppy application" of scripture.

 

You're probably right that the Character Qualities are better examples of "sloppy application" than of "twisting Scripture". 

[MaeFlowers]

Thank you for posting that chart!  I felt pretty comfortable with the doctrines of the church where I grew up, but there is not a church of that denomination close enough to me now to be a real church home (occasional Sunday mornings, yes, but nothing beyond that).  But I hate trying to find a church that fits our beliefs.  That chart looks like it could help me in finding a similar church.

 

We have a new Foursquare church very close by.  We have been a couple of times and have liked it okay, but we were there for "special Sunday" both times -- once for their grand opening service and once for Easter -- so it wasn't necessarily representative of their typical sermons.  I wish I knew where the Foursquare denomination fell on that chart.

 

To be honest, I don't know anything about pentecostal churches. I found this flow chart, Which Denomination Am I?, which I thought was interesting. Maybe it would help?

[Katy]

Thank you for posting that chart!  I felt pretty comfortable with the doctrines of the church where I grew up, but there is not a church of that denomination close enough to me now to be a real church home (occasional Sunday mornings, yes, but nothing beyond that).  But I hate trying to find a church that fits our beliefs.  That chart looks like it could help me in finding a similar church.

 

We have a new Foursquare church very close by.  We have been a couple of times and have liked it okay, but we were there for "special Sunday" both times -- once for their grand opening service and once for Easter -- so it wasn't necessarily representative of their typical sermons.  I wish I knew where the Foursquare denomination fell on that chart.

 

My great grandmother was foursquare.  My understanding is they are very pentecostal - like they don't just believe in speaking in tongues, they believe you must speak in tongues as a sign of being baptized in the spirit in order to be saved.  My family (apart from ggma) did not have good experiences there - very legalistic and hypocritical, though I suppose that could be true in any small town southern church.  Here's a wiki on them:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Church_of_the_Foursquare_Gospel

[staceyobu]

 As I think about this, I wonder if accusing a denomination of being a cult is no different than accusing a denomination of being legalistic (another popular accusation against Catholic interpretation of the bible). The thing is, from the inside, one's arguments are no less personal and insightful and divinely inspired than anyone else's. So there's got to be something else, hasn't there? 

 

 

I do think defining a cult is difficult.  This is from Christianity Today, and I think some of the points make sense:

 

The third, and most commonly used definition, refers to a religious group that is:

1) Exclusive. They may say, "We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."

2) Secretive. Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.

3) Authoritarian. A human leader expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience.

 

So, I'll use my denomination and show how it compares.  I am Presbyterian.  I do not believe Presbyterians are the only ones going to heaven.  We have no secret teachings.  I would happily spell out everything I know about being presbyterian to you and then find someone more presbyterian than I am to tell you more.  We do not have any leader who expects total loyalty or obedience.

I have limited knowledge of ATI, but it seems that there are secretive teachings... you have to pass the basic seminar to get to the advanced seminar.  The homeschooling materials are only for people who have attended certain seminars.  They don't give you all the information up front.  ATI followers have a human leader they follow who expects loyalty (don't grow beards, wear certain clothing).  I'm not sure if they believe they are the only ones going to heaven. 

[Guest]

i linked this earlier but just finished reading the whole thing.

 

For those who, like me, are struggling to tease out the Gothard heresies from a sea of information and opinion (many of which are quite hurtful to conservative Christians in general), this is a *great* and brief summary of some of the many issues with ATI's teachings:

http://www.recoverin...-discernment-2/

 

It was wonderfully done, very sensitive, and respectful to all involved. Really great stuff.

[Ausmumof3]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

I am so sorry!

[Matryoshka]

I do think defining a cult is difficult.  This is from Christianity Today, and I think some of the points make sense:

 

The third, and most commonly used definition, refers to a religious group that is:

1) Exclusive. They may say, "We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."

2) Secretive. Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.

3) Authoritarian. A human leader expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience.

 

So, I'll use my denomination and show how it compares.  I am Presbyterian.  I do not believe Presbyterians are the only ones going to heaven.  We have no secret teachings.  I would happily spell out everything I know about being presbyterian to you and then find someone more presbyterian than I am to tell you more.  We do not have any leader who expects total loyalty or obedience.

I have limited knowledge of ATI, but it seems that there are secretive teachings... you have to pass the basic seminar to get to the advanced seminar.  The homeschooling materials are only for people who have attended certain seminars.  They don't give you all the information up front.  ATI followers have a human leader they follow who expects loyalty (don't grow beards, wear certain clothing).  I'm not sure if they believe they are the only ones going to heaven. 

 

I think those are good criteria, especially the slavishly-followed human leader.  That seems to be a pretty much universal one - there's a human (virtually always a guy) who is the conduit for all spiritual knowledge, and the most ridiculous (to anyone not in the group) dictates are followed without question because he said so.

 

I'd add one more about them making it psychologically (because of shunning or just plain brainwashing) or even physically (the even more extreme kinds of cults with compounds) very hard to leave the group.

 

[MercyA]

For those who, like me, are struggling to tease out the Gothard heresies from a sea of information and opinion (many of which are quite hurtful to conservative Christians in general), this is a *great* and brief summary of some of the many issues with ATI's teachings:

http://www.recoverin...-discernment-2/

 

Arctic Mama, I'm interested, but the link isn't working.

 

Here it is:  http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/03/a-call-for-discernment-2/

[LMD]

Holy crap dmmetler, that's some next level evil. I am so sorry.

 

And such 'shooting our wounded' bs is far too common in the church. Not good enough.

[Pam in CT]

dmmetler,  :grouphug: .  That is an abomination.

 

 

 

 

I have to admit, I thought that you initially implied that the SBC was/is a liberal church on the spectrum of Christian denominations. I think(?) this is what DawnM is referring to, as well. It kind of threw me because I have never heard anyone refer to Baptists, particularly the SBC as liberal. I also thought that you implied that SB are not fundamentalists. I'm totally confused.

 

Anywho, I found this chart that shows the theological spectrum from liberal to conservative. Thought it applied here.

Thank you for this.  Where is it from?  And, does it "feel" more or less "right" to y'all from different perspectives / places on that spectrum? 

 

 

 

I do think defining a cult is difficult.  This is from Christianity Today, and I think some of the points make sense:

 

The third, and most commonly used definition, refers to a religious group that is:

1) Exclusive. They may say, "We're the only ones with the truth; everyone else is wrong; and if you leave our group your salvation is in danger."

2) Secretive. Certain teachings are not available to outsiders or they're presented only to certain members, sometimes after taking vows of confidentiality.

3) Authoritarian. A human leader expects total loyalty and unquestioned obedience.

 

So, I'll use my denomination and show how it compares.  I am Presbyterian.  I do not believe Presbyterians are the only ones going to heaven.  We have no secret teachings.  I would happily spell out everything I know about being presbyterian to you and then find someone more presbyterian than I am to tell you more.  We do not have any leader who expects total loyalty or obedience.

I have limited knowledge of ATI, but it seems that there are secretive teachings... you have to pass the basic seminar to get to the advanced seminar.  The homeschooling materials are only for people who have attended certain seminars.  They don't give you all the information up front.  ATI followers have a human leader they follow who expects loyalty (don't grow beards, wear certain clothing).  I'm not sure if they believe they are the only ones going to heaven. 

That seems to me to hit on the most salient points -- faith exclusivity, community isolation, and extreme authoritarianism.  

 

Within Judaism, there are definitely pockets/communities that fit that definition and more "mainstream" -- not necessarily looser in terms of observance and/or liberal in terms of theology-- strands that do not.

[DawnM]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

 

 

Horrible, horrible, horrible.

[Mandylubug]

What is the connection of ATI and A.C.E. Paces?

[fairfarmhand]

IME, in this discussion about ATI and some VERY conservative Baptists, liberal vs conservative has less to do with theology (although that can play a part) than it does externals.

 

Liberals:

Listen to music that's not Christian

Women wear pants, shorts, and skirts that show the knee

Women may or may not work outside the home

Go to movies

Use versions of the Bible that may not be KJV

Consider sending their kids to Christian Schools, public schools, or homeschool as equally viable choices

Permit their children to date, and attend college

Allow older teens a significant voice in their decisions

Swim in mixed gender groups

Miss church from time to time due to prior commitments, and feel that it is okay.

 

Conservatives:

Don't attend movies at the theater

Women are often skirts only, with below the knee to ankle length the preferred length; Shorts are wrong, but "culottes" are okay. Men never wear shorts, since they are ungodly. Pants on women are "wearing that which pertaineth to a man" and are an abomination.

Women are encouraged strongly to stay at home with kids, even if it means deep financial difficulty for the family

Homeschooling is the best educational option with Christian school being the next choice. Public schools are pits of iniquity.

Courting is the preferred means of matching up young people of marriageable age

Teens are permitted very little voice in their homes

Women Never wear a typical bathing suit, don't swim in mixed gender groups

Do not listen to secular music, even Christian music with a rock beat is forbidden

Only use the KJV. All other versions of the Bible are "adding to or subtracting from the Word," and are condemned

Attend church every time the doors are open, because we are not to forsake the assembling together of the church

Men must have short hair. Longer hair on a guy is an abomination. The same with ear piercing on men.

I'm not saying that every conservative or liberal adheres to these rules. These are the extremes. But in the Independent Baptist circles that I grew up in, this was what most preachers taught were many of the differences between liberal and conservatives.

 

I think to the ATI crowd, these are some of the high points. I do remember running into a few ATI families as a kid, but I was too young to figure out the nuances. Thus my original question.

 

My family of origin is what they consider "conservative" because of the above list. All others that permit things that they do not are labeled "liberal."

 

I think that is what the PP meant when she talked about certain people considering BJU and PCC as "too liberal" and the Southern Baptists as being "too Liberal" for the ATI crowd.

[sunflowerlady]

What is the connection of ATI and A.C.E. Paces?

As far as I know, there isn't one.

[MaeFlowers]

dmmetler, :grouphug: . That is an abomination.

 

 

 

 

Thank you for this. Where is it from? And, does it "feel" more or less "right" to y'all from different perspectives / places on that spectrum?

 

 

 

That seems to me to hit on the most salient points -- faith exclusivity, community isolation, and extreme authoritarianism.

 

Within Judaism, there are definitely pockets/communities that fit that definition and more "mainstream" -- not necessarily looser in terms of observance and/or liberal in terms of theology-- strands that do not.

I found it through a Bing search. I think I typed in "spectrum of Christian denominations". There are tons of charts out there like this one. This particular one seemed the simplest and the clearest. Of course, it leaves off huge groups.

I can't speak for anyone else but I think it is pretty accurate. I would love to hear from others because there are some denominations on here that I know nothing of.

[MaeFlowers]

That chart may be helpful in sorting through the differences between various evangelical denominations that answer "yes" to the first question. Everything downstream from the "No" or "Well . . ." answer to the first question seems to be written from a "they're wrong anyway so who cares" perspective.

I agree. It is a incredibly simplistic view and maybe I should have given a disclaimer. Sorry if I offended.

[MaeFlowers]

dp

 

I have to quit responding on my phone. It always looks like it didn't go through.

[Mandylubug]

As far as I know, there isn't one.

Oh okay, on the other thread, I had read something someone stated something about ACE paces and ATI being affiliated somehow.

 

Eta: we have used Paces in past but they bothered me, even as a conservative Christian. I couldn't pinpoint my discomfort at the time. So, was just curious.

[K&Rs Mom]

Depression? Hard to say because ATI sees that as a spiritual issue and shuns mental health services. ATI people are not going to admit they have depression. However, judging by the blog posts of survivors who have left the cult, I would say that may people are clinically depressed trying to keep up with all the rules, the judgmentalism, and keeping up appearances, depression could be very common.

 

I get that all those things would really bring someone down, but isn't clinical depression a chemical issue?  Can it be "caused" by outside factors?  This is something I've struggled to understand for a long time.  If it isn't chemical, it seems they aren't SO far off trying to "cure" it by prayer; but if it is chemical, to the point of needing (but not getting) a prescription, I can imagine lots of disasters by denying that - it seems like we'd hear about more people doing crazy things.

[Alessandra]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

(((Hugs)))

[Onceuponatime]

I get that all those things would really bring someone down, but isn't clinical depression a chemical issue? Can it be "caused" by outside factors? This is something I've struggled to understand for a long time. If it isn't chemical, it seems they aren't SO far off trying to "cure" it by prayer; but if it is chemical, to the point of needing (but not getting) a prescription, I can imagine lots of disasters by denying that - it seems like we'd hear about more people doing crazy things.

Yes it is a chemical issue, but chemical issues can have underlying causes, extreme physical and mental stress, lack of sleep, and hormonal imbalances. Not every depressed person does crazy things. Sometimes they just shut down, or operate on auto-pilot.

 

A woman who thinks she is sinful for wanting to rest and have time to herself or even have personal enjoyments that don't include the rest of the family is not prone to happiness and contentment. And being discontented is also a sin. Add to that the burden of a large family on her body, time, and resources. Appearances must be maintained, children must be controlled and trained, everyone must be on the same page. Plus a husband who insists on things being done a certain way, and who considers himself more "spiritually minded" because women are susceptible to the devil's persuasion. That's just the tip of the iceberg.

[LucyStoner]

I get that all those things would really bring someone down, but isn't clinical depression a chemical issue? Can it be "caused" by outside factors? This is something I've struggled to understand for a long time. If it isn't chemical, it seems they aren't SO far off trying to "cure" it by prayer; but if it is chemical, to the point of needing (but not getting) a prescription, I can imagine lots of disasters by denying that - it seems like we'd hear about more people doing crazy things.

Situational depression can affect someone as much as different types of clinical depression.

[shawthorne44]

My brain sort of shut down when I googled Blanket Training that was mentioned in regards to the Duggards in a PP.  

I see nothing wrong with tomato staking.  

[Annie G]

I attended a church with a large quiverful population for awhile, and when I had severe HELLP, leading to an emergency C-section, a week in ICU for me, and a dead baby, was told it was my fault for not bringing my husband to the church. I'm still very shaky on my beliefs and feelings about Christianity largely due to that experience-not just the loss, but the condemnation that followed it.

:grouphug:  I am so sorry.  

[Halftime Hope]

How does one know what is going on in the privacy of the home?

 

Look at all the things the Duggars removed from their websites when they started to become a household name.

 

I remember people discussing them many years ago and I do remember seeing the Pearls content on their website and I do remember quite clearly seeing the tomato staking and blanket training things on their website.

 

I don't believe there is any such thing as a non-crazy ATI believer. If they weren't crazy they wouldn't give ATI their support. 

I am not one of them, but we do know some families who, back in the day, had adopted ATI for their families.  You may not believe it is possible, but they were not crazy, not whackadoodles, not lacking in good judgement and common sense.  Some of them drew narrower boundaries than we did (TV and music come to mind), but it really would be inappropriate to paint with a broad brush and say that these families were crazy. 

 

I do think that many ATI families were deceived and had no idea that Gothard would go off the deep end in his beliefs.  He triggered my legalism bells from the beginning, but his early teachings, from Scripture, were very helpful to my husband's healing and wholeness after years of struggling with dyslexia.   ETA: Just to clarify, hubby is still dyslexic, but the healing was in his self-image and his understanding of God's purpose for him, and it came from teaching of Scripture, through early Gothard materials.

 

That said, I've seen several teachers who start out relatively sound and go off on a tangent that irreparably damages people who are not discerning or who have no frame of reference.  It grieves me that this is part of human nature.

[FaithManor]

What is the connection of ATI and A.C.E. Paces?

There isn't one specifically. It's that they are recommended for those ATI families that want a more structured approach specifically to math and English. The reason they are recommended is because they are very conservative...pictures of girls in longer sleeves, never in pants, long skirts, much discussion of modesty and purity, etc. That's all.