Homeschooling with an Aristotelian Husband

[raptor_dad]

That's where you and this gentleman differ. The OP's husband is not looking for parenting advice or even deciding how to raise his own children. He would be willing to sacrifice them to the greater good, she said, if that is what Aristotle requires.

 

The state takes precedence over the family. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the view. The great strength of the totalitarian state is that it forces those who fear it to imitate it -- through guilt and self-loathing if not at the point of a gun. In other words, how does the love of a philosopher whose primary consideration was the state cause a man in another time and place to consider all of these philosophies as more important than his own flesh and blood?

 

Sometimes it's good to blow away the dust from the ancient tomes and call a thing what it is.

 

Exactly.

 

Tracing it back... I have heard it said that Socrates was the one violation of the Peace of Eucleides. His uncle was in the Group of Thirty, the so called Thirty Tyrants. Socrates's students tried to overthrow the democracy. There is more going on there than academic freedom. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle are a direct lineage. They are great philosophers and anyone who comes after has to wrestle with their ideas but that doesn't mean you have to be naively beholden to those ideas... either philosophically or personally.

 

Aristotle, Rousseau, the Pope, Mao, my neighbors... doesn't matter. I'm not going to force my kids into a "little box" to meet some communitarian ideal.

 

 

 

[Innisfree]

How would he feel about "keeping it small-scale" with a group of like-minded people: i.e., a co-op?

[LucyStoner]

Oh to have a preschooler and believe that public education is a totally functional public good and great equalizer. Or even to believe it can be fixed from within.

 

-signed the mom who would NEVER homeschool but who is now in year five of homeschooling after two disasterous public school years.

 

Children should not be sacrificial lambs to their parents' philosophical beliefs. There's belief and then there's the cold hard truth. Public school is a great idea that works for many but also fails many.

[Miss Mousie]

Right! I agree. He agrees that the education received won't be adequate but that the fact that it is "public" (in the sense that its communal, it could mean private education as well) is a big concern.

 

So here's the compromise:

 

You have a gaggle of children, call your school the City of CMB5, and homeschool away!

[cmb5]

It might be something to note that many home schoolers have a community like this that gathers regularly. Not exactly the same education given, but a community with similar values toward education.

 

I have made this point to him - and he agrees that a co-op situation (or even an informal community of homeschoolers) definitely makes it better.

[cmb5]

How would he feel about "keeping it small-scale" with a group of like-minded people: i.e., a co-op?

 

Oh - I just replied to someone else. Yes, having a co-op definitely makes him more sympathetic to the idea.

[cmb5]

Oh to have a preschooler and believe that public education is a totally functional public good and great equalizer. Or even to believe it can be fixed from within.

 

-signed the mom who would NEVER homeschool but who is now in year five of homeschooling after two disasterous public school years.

 

Children should not be sacrificial lambs to their parents' philosophical beliefs. There's belief and then there's the cold hard truth. Public school is a great idea that works for many but also fails many.

 

If you read above, public school isn't what we're considering here.

 

Pretty sure my husband is not sacrificing his children anytime soon.

[cmb5]

Ok - thanks everyone for your input!

 

For anyone posting - PUBLIC SCHOOL IS NOT IN QUESTION HERE.  :)  Given the philosophical beliefs that he holds, we agree that public school, as it is right now, is not going to work.

 

I'm more looking for actual arguments here that will appeal to him, given his beliefs. Telling him that he's sacrificing his child because of those beliefs isn't going to convince him to homeschool. ;)

 

Thank you again everyone!

[LucyStoner]

Um, the comment about sacrificing your children was tongue in cheek and meant in jest.

 

It's all well and good to have opinions about education when one has no children old enough for any type of school but those opinions are just that, opinions. My main advice to anyone considering their educational choices for their kids when their kids are still tiny is to wait and see what works for the child. This could be way different than what you want or what he wants.

[cmb5]

Um, the comment about sacrificing your children was tongue in cheek and meant in jest.

 

It's all well and good to have opinions about education when one has no children old enough for any type of school but those opinions are just that, opinions. My main advice to anyone considering their educational choices for their kids when their kids are still tiny is to wait and see what works for the child. This could be way different than what you want or what he wants.

 

Sorry, I know. You weren't the first to use the word "sacrifice".

 

I like what you say here though. Of course we will wait, especially since we don't even know where we will live when schooling time comes. I would just rather not get to Kindergarten and with me feeling as if homeschooling is the way to go and my husband feeling (still) that it isn't even an option.

[Catwoman]

No advice here, but I wanted to welcome you to the forum! :)

[Catwoman]

Ehhhhh... I wouldn't say he agrees with all of that. At all. My husband is ironically enough very anti-State. The ideas of Aristotle that we're discussing here aren't to be connected to the State but to a community in a more broad term. My husband believes that education should happen in a communal atmosphere, with people who share common values and goals. He (and I don't think Aristotle!) does not think it should be run by the State, but by the community. America is very anti-Aristotelian, namely because of its size and also because of its lack of community.

 

The idea is that your community, your people, are the people who both live near and share values with. You share the same "end" and therefore you come together and educate your children together and with the same values in mind. They are given the same education. America has adopted this general idea, but it doesn't work because again, the size and the lack of shared values.

 

When you keep it small-scale (to your parish, your street, your group of friends, whatever), it is easier to understand his position without making grand statements about my husband sacrificing our children on the altar of government-run-education.

 

(Edited for some typos! Though I'm sure I missed some.)

Given that public school isn't an option, specifically how and where does your dh want your children to be educated?

 

It's all well and good that he has lofty ideas and goals, but how does he plan to implement them?

[cmb5]

Given that public school isn't an option, specifically how and where does your dh want your children to be educated?

 

It's all well and good that he has lofty ideas and goals, but how does he plan to implement them?

 

Oh he doesn't have a plan. He's a philosopher, he lives in the loft. ;)

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread... his thought is that if our local parochial school is doing good and is reforming (for instance our parish is moving towards more classical education at the moment), that we should support the school by sending our kids there. Because if we all keep our children home, then the support won't be there and likely the reform won't happen.

 

I see his argument and agree with it to a certain degree, I just think many Catholic schools are subject to the same sorts of issues as public schools and are often just as mainstream. Same with many private schools, unless they are specifically geared otherwise.

[forty-two]

Oh he doesn't have a plan. He's a philosopher, he lives in the loft. ;)

 

I mentioned earlier in the thread... his thought is that if our local parochial school is doing good and is reforming (for instance our parish is moving towards more classical education at the moment), that we should support the school by sending our kids there. Because if we all keep our children home, then the support won't be there and likely the reform won't happen.

 

I see his argument and agree with it to a certain degree, I just think many Catholic schools are subject to the same sorts of issues as public schools and are often just as mainstream. Same with many private schools, unless they are specifically geared otherwise.

A few thoughts/questions:

 

Do you agree with his educational ideals? Setting aside the practical side of implementation, if there magically existed such a school, would you want to send your kids?

 

Does he agree with your educational ideals? Does he agree with you that parochial schools too often have the same issues as public schools, and that they are indeed deal-breaking issues?

 

In summary, is his vision of his ideal parochial school compatible with your vision of the ideal educational environment? (From what you've said thus far, you don't sound *too* far apart, and if you have substantial agreement here, that's an excellent start.)

 

And turning to specifics, is the particular parochial school that is being reformed, that your dh thinks might be compatible with his ideals - if it turns out that it is not only compatible with *his* ideals, but also *yours* (assuming your two ideals are compatible themselves), would it be a realistic option for you? From what you've said, it seems your objections to Catholic schools aren't absolute (that there is no possible school that could be acceptable ever) but more because you don't think a good one (from your perspective) actually exists; but if it *did* exist, you might be open to sending your kids there. And if so, is it possible this particular school might be in the process of turning into a school you could approve of? That while you would be threatened by the idea of *any* Catholic school being better than homeschooling, you maybe could be on board with seriously considering if *this* particular Catholic school, at a particular time, is good enough for you to send your kids?

 

It sounds to me like neither you nor your dh would actually want to send your kids to a *bad* Catholic school, but that you might have higher standards for what a "good enough" Catholic school would look like. That since your dh values having a community, he might be willing to overlook some level of issues you wouldn't overlook in order to have the benefits of a shared Catholic education. One thing I might mention is that it's not much of a shared community if you don't actually share the beliefs being taught ;).

[LucyStoner]

Given that public school isn't an option, specifically how and where does your dh want your children to be educated?

 

It's all well and good that he has lofty ideas and goals, but how does he plan to implement them?

Time machine to study with Aristotle in the flesh.

 

Also, meant in jest.

[foxbridgeacademy]

Well, that's a good point.

 

If he feels ethically bound to participate in public schools for the greater good, let him enroll. Let him endure inappropriate and non-traditional standards, curriculum, and assignments. Let him sit through 20 hours of federally-mandated testing which tells the teachers and administrators nothing about his educational needs. Let him be denied bathroom breaks, sufficient time to eat his dinner, and adequate outdoor recess. Let him also be denied access to effective math and science instruction and any teaching of the classics. Let him be denied Latin, Greek, Logic, Rhetoric, and religious studies. Let him bring home hours of homework after sitting through hours of classes.

 

I daresay no adult would be willing to live that way or to be educated that way. If your husband would not, why would he send his children?

 

I am not so sure that homeschooling is killing public school, anyway. I have a theory, upon which I will update everybody in 10 years, that properly educated homeschoolers will grow up to care about better education for all. We know they are not all going to choose homeschooling for their own families. I rather doubt they'll have the option, to be honest. But they will know what it means to be educated, and they will not settle for less for their children. If their own children are in school they will advocate for a better education for all.

 

This would be my argument on top of the fact that I would probably boot DH out if he ever insisted that we put any one or any thing above our children, which your Dh isn't doing yet and will likely see the err of his philosophy.  

 

As for our children wanting to make the educational system better because of having a better education at home, I think you're right.  DD wants to be a P.S. teacher (right now, who knows next year).  Her reasoning is that she wants to make a difference for the future. DS wants to marry a woman who either will Home school their children or make enough money so he can stay home and school the children.....

 

I have lots of thoughts on this but I don't know how to express without being offensive/insensitive to others. My children are so much happier being HS'ed and for me that is the only thing that matters.

[forty-two]

Maybe it would help if both you and your dh considered what would have to be in place for each of you to be comfortable with the other person's preference? That you think about what an acceptable-to-you Catholic school would look like, and your dh thinks about what an acceptable-to-him homeschooling environment would look like. And then look at what it would take to make each option practical. If, as you say, you aren't going to be able to afford even the perfect Catholic school, then it's probably a good idea for you and your dh to be thinking about how to make homeschooling an acceptable, *doable* option in any case.

[EmilyGF]

Not an argument, but my neighbor was an Aristotelian professor married to the same and they had their kids at a private school until that didn't work for them anymore.

 

(Don't run into those types much...)

 

Great that you're working on agreement before it becomes a big deal. My husband sometimes wants to send our kids to private school, but then runs the numbers and we're back to homeschool. Reality sometimes gets in the way of ideals.

 

Emily

[Tsuga]

 

 

I see his argument and agree with it to a certain degree, I just think many Catholic schools are subject to the same sorts of issues as public schools and are often just as mainstream. Same with many private schools, unless they are specifically geared otherwise.

 

I could not agree more.

 

There is a time and a place for excellent private schools, but given your husband's goals, I'm surprised he'd consider it. I think he will be sorely disappointed when he realized what community he has chosen for his children to grow up in, if his goals are social consciousness, equal access to education for all, and quality learning.

 

As many have pointed out on other threads, many of the standards in K-5 are pretty much the maximum of what children can do developmentally; introducing the factor of "not just anybody can come here, you have to be very special or have money" will not change the quality of instruction. Again, that is not towards you, but your DH.

 

 

 

his thought is that if our local parochial school is doing good and is reforming (for instance our parish is moving towards more classical education at the moment), that we should support the school by sending our kids there. Because if we all keep our children home, then the support won't be there and likely the reform won't happen.

 

A couple of classic fallacies here:

 

1. Slippery slope: if we don't support this school, nobody will. Not true: many people do not have the stamina or need to homeschool. School is actually a great environment for many social kids (yours might be among them--when my children were the ages of yours, I was preparing a homeschool curriculum for kindergarten, oh how things change). The reason people continue to public school, in fact, is that we need public schools. End of story. The need will not suddenly end. And we didn't get public schools or even church schools in the first place due to upper-middle class people being in the schools. As a matter of fact, it was a question of public policy mainly championed by people with much better options.

 

2. Denying the antecedent: "If we don't go to school with others, we can't reform that school" does not imply that "if we do go to school with others, then we can reform that school." This is the fallacy of denying the antecedent (except denying a negative in this case leads to a positive). 

 

Leaving that aside, I would strongly encourage you to take the dialectic approach with your husband. What specifically does he want to see change? How has this sort of change happened in the past? In other countries? What policies were enacted, when, and how? (Dates, names of lobbyists, did it go to a popular vote or was it through parliament, or something else?) What were the management decisions that made changes in the lives of individual students? Let him find evidence of specific mechanisms that led to school reform. Having lost "if we don't homeschool then we can reform that school" to the fallacy of denying the antecedent he is now in a position where he needs to construct evidence for the positive conditional statement "If we send our children to a particular school, then we will support that school's mission."

 

He also needs to defend:

 

"If we support a particular school with a mission that aligns with Aristotle's policy claim, then we will be supporting this policy's being adopted by a wider society."

 

This will be tough particularly if you take the private school route. Private schools can do things that public schools cannot, such as exclude people, and pay higher salaries (for a variety of reasons). So a private school's development of a unique environment is not only unlikely to effect change even on a city-wide level, it has been shown in nearly every single case not to do that because private schools that have more money to serve fewer people with less diverse needs are not equipped to demonstrate solutions to larger public problems.

 

Now, by all means, private school if you wish. But your husband's assertion that this would somehow comprise part of a rational strategy to support his Aristotelian ideals is naive at best, self-serving at worst.

 

I say that with respect and affinity for a fellow philosopher. From one woman to another... he must be awfully cute for you to put up with that. I know mine is, lol.

[Orthodox6]

A family is a community.

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

My husband basically believes that, but he is not impressed with the schools.  He is from a country where homeschooling is not legal and he thinks that is fine and dandy and would not have a problem sending his kids to school there.

 

 

 

 

[Tsuga]

A family is a community.

 

In the context of Aristotle's Politics, a family is the building block of a community, but he actually has a pretty well-laid-out theory about the relationship between families, communities, and city-states and how they are supposed to relate to one another.

 

Some of it is kind of proto-socio-ethical work and useful.

 

Then you get other stuff about women which just plain sucks.

 

I think that OP will not make a lot of headway trying to convince her husband that Aristotle was wrong, at least not before making headway on homeschooling.

[Orthodox6]

I was not speaking as an Aristotelian -- a mindset outside of my worldview -- but voicing the commonly held view of many.

[kiwik]

You want to homeschooling but your husband has philosophical and ethical reservations. Tgefd are many people on these boards whose husband would be happy for them to attend public school and would indeed enroll them without a second though if the need should arise. I think the problem is just one of many child rearing things that come up in marriage and you will have to come to some agreement. Lucky you have plenty of time still.

 

And in a broad sense I agree - the education of the children in a village is the responsibility of the entire village but we live in a different society and even in Ancient Greece the cities were probably too big for it to work properly.

[Lucy the Valiant]

Another angle is to consider that home schooled children are part of "the greater community" in a way that traditionally-schooled children simply cannot be, due to the constraints of space and time. Home schooled children have the freedom to interact with a wide variety of age groups, "ability" groups, specific interest groups, etc. So I would argue that a "typical home schooled kid" (not that there is such a thing) can - in MANY ways - more fully experience Aristotle's theoretical ideal than a "typical school kid" (not that there are many of those, either).

 

I was a (good) public school teacher who had only ever seen dismal examples of home schooling. Heh.

 

(I also hold, philosophically speaking, that the outliers offer a critical possibility to the "general middle" that serves as their contribution to society's whole; it is our cultural responsibility to push the brightest ones forward to their full potential, because their full potential benefits the whole. Restricting them to average or lowering ceilings for the greater convenience is NOT helpful to the greater (public) good.)

[Guest]

First, you have to agree with the goal of the polis and then that the goal will be met in the schools and that you are glad that this will happen.  

 

It is very likely that your dh is thinking of seeking the true, the good and the beautiful--that was the classical goal of education.  If you can find a public school that says there is Truth, or can define Goodness, or agree on what is Beautiful, then you might have something to talk about.  

 

I'm shorthanding it here--but there are countless (because I couldn't spell innumerable) books on the subject of classical education. (And there is disagreement among them as to what it IS....)

 

The Well Trained Mind is a good roadmap. 

Latin Centered Curriculum is one if you have the chops to implement it.

The Circe Institute is another--and while it has less of a roadmap than TWTM (which we used as our main *guide* not *law*) than an inspirational and aspirational group with some curricula behind it--and it is the one that made my heart sing.  

 

I was one who had to have the philosophy behind education before I could start down the road, and we ended up in private schools, homeschooling (which my dh said we would NEVER do--because we had seen it implement so sloppily--until we found classical) and classical co-ops in our area.  Always with the goal of getting what was true, good and beautiful instilled into our lives and into my son. 

 

 

[momacacia]

Just tell him that there are very, very, very few even private schools where his children will learn diddly (that's Greek for "any little thing") about Aristotle. If that doesn't scare the carp out of him, tell him he can after-school them after they go to the school of his choice during the day (oh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth!).

 

Then come back and tell us what he said. ;)

[readinmom]

Education cannot be "one and the same for all" for a lot reasons.  I suggest that your dh and you start visiting different schools, particularly at the middle/high school level now, and then visit again in about six years when Common Core has been firmly established.  Visit different counties, and if possible, different states and have him explain how all the children are of equal ability and all learn at the same rate.  

 

Not trying to be snarky here, whatsoever.  You want the best possible education for your children.  If you have an amazing public school, or access to a quality charter, or want to supplement with after schooling activities, great.  I will be the first one to say that school is what you make it.  I'm just not willing to sacrifice my own as part of the great social experiment.  

 

Welcome to the Boards!

[Seasider]

Welcome!

 

I have found that my home educated kids have had no problem picking up general cultural literacy. I do believe, however, that as kids reach the upper logic and rhetoric stages, that they need a wider audience upon which to bounce their rhetoric. 😊 Perhaps these issues form part of your husband's concern.

 

As others have said, I don't think Aristotle could have fathomed what our 21st century public education system looks like.

[ktgrok]

Ehhhhh... I wouldn't say he agrees with all of that. At all. My husband is ironically enough very anti-State. The ideas of Aristotle that we're discussing here aren't to be connected to the State but to a community in a more broad term. My husband believes that education should happen in a communal atmosphere, with people who share common values and goals. He (and I don't think Aristotle!) does not think it should be run by the State, but by the community. America is very anti-Aristotelian, namely because of its size and also because of its lack of community.

 

The idea is that your community, your people, are the people who both live near and share values with. You share the same "end" and therefore you come together and educate your children together and with the same values in mind. They are given the same education. America has adopted this general idea, but it doesn't work because again, the size and the lack of shared values.

 

When you keep it small-scale (to your parish, your street, your group of friends, whatever), it is easier to understand his position without making grand statements about my husband sacrificing our children on the altar of government-run-education.

 

(Edited for some typos! Though I'm sure I missed some.)

 

Um, that community sounds like the homeschool groups I'm part of. Perhaps he needs to think along those lines?

 

There are also Catholic homeschool groups, as well as Catholic hybrid schools (Regina Caeli I think?). Maybe he should consider starting one of those in your area?

[momacacia]

Maybe Classical Conversations would work for him.

[ElizabethB]

I have tutored hundreds of children while homeschooling...I actually have more time and energy and flexibility to do that than if my children were in school. My children came with me to group classes. When they were younger, other moms watched them, now they stay at home or come and help out. I taught individual children as I found them and groups of inner city children and formerly homeless children in several different states.

 

If you are still around and interested in more details and why it is easier when homeschooling, let me know.

[Little Women]

I would ask what is his "one end," and does he feel that the schools available to your family would adequately meet that "one end"?

[WTMCassandra]

I'm sorry that I don't have time to reply in more depth, but I've read the thread and would like to add a few things.

 

You are married to a philosopher. You are lucky because many husbands would not want to even go there. This can be to your advantage. Take this time while your children are small for both of you to read books, think deep thoughts about education, and put them on paper. What would an ideal education look like? The above-recommended WTM, Latin-Centered Curriculum 1st edition, Climbing Parnassus, anything by the CiRCE institute, are all terrific.

 

Keep a commonplace book about education. Collect quotations. Both of you! Wallow in educational philosophy and theory. Hammer out your family's educational manifesto. You can work really hard on this in the next couple of years regardless of where you live. Create a vision for where you want to go (even if you aren't totally sure yet how to get there). 

 

Then, when your children are school age, look to see where you've ended up locality-wise, and evaluate what educational options are available to you there, and see how closely any of them match up to your educational philosophy. That will be your answer. And you (both of you) will be in a much better position to evaluate those choices, having done your homework ahead of time.

 

Now, regarding those Greeks. You cannot lift one philosopher's words, or even a whole work, out of his society. Others have pointed out things about how this was theoretical, applied only to full citizens of the polis (white men, not women, slaves, commoners, etc.), meant to discuss education broadly, etc. But any philosopher must take the context into account when weighing philosophy, and that includes cultural context. However, that doesn't mean that the Greeks don't have things to contribute. People are writing whole rhetoric curricula (Classical Writing, Classical Composition, etc.) to unpack those ancient Greek educational curricula. Awesome stuff. 

 

About a community? I agree with someone upthread (sorry, can't remember who) that this becomes more of an issue in high school. It can be useful to have a group to do Socratic-style classes with. I also agree with other posters that your husband might be an excellent candidate to lead a small co-op of this kind when the children are older.

 

When they are younger, honestly, I don't think anything beats the one-on-one tutorial model. There is just too much normal variation in young children to be able to do too much productively in groups. I'd save most of the "community" experiences for high school. And even in high school, I still think the one-on-one tutorial model is best for writing instruction. People's writing processes are so different. I remember teaching a high school writing co-op with only six students and struggling to provide what I considered to be appropriately differentiated instruction. The tutorial model is hands-down the most efficient. Think of the student-teacher ratio, LOL!

 

I'm afraid that's about all I have time for right now, but this is an awesome thread. Welcome to the boards, and I wish you the best on your family's journey! 

[Dina K]

No, I don't think so. I don't think he thinks that either.

 

See above where I mentioned supporting a pastor who is reforming his school. 

 

If your children were homeschooled, they could enter the world capable of making the educational system better. If they went to PS, the reality is that they're not going to make it better. If they were homeschooled, they could make a difference in the future. 

 

I know nothing about Aristotle's philosophy however. I've only recently got into reading philosophy. :)

[Ausmumof3]

It sounds like your husband would like a Reggio Emilia style school.

 

I guess the trouble that I personally have with the idea of the same education for all is that different people have different gifts and talents. You can't cover everything but by individualising education you can cover a broad base them focus on the specific areas of interest in more depth. I do believe all kids should have equal access to educational opportunities but the specific opportunities that are relevant to different kids will differ so not every kids education should look the same.

 

Minus the Aristotle slant this argument floats around from time to time - that by homeschooling or doing private school parents are deserting the common good. But if the common good isn't good at all maybe leaving is the best option for everyone. It has to be better to have some well educated people than none at all.

[Laura Corin]

Time machine to study with Aristotle in the flesh.

 

Also, meant in jest.

 

Alongside Alexander the Great!  All kinds of fun.  Just watch out for the parents.