Learning to read but won't look at the page?!

[Aiden]

I have been going through OPGTR with my 4yo daughter. We're on Lesson 30, one of the lessons using the short-A sound. She knows all the letters and their sounds, and when she wants to, she can sound out words just fine. Ability, readiness from an academic standpoint--those are not the issues we're having.

 

The problem we're having is that my daughter often refuses to look at the page. It isn't that she's tired; we'll have just started the lesson. It's that the words are so repetitive that she thinks she knows what's coming up, so she'll look at the page for the first letter, then just say the whole word before I uncover the rest of the letters. Then, when we're reading sentences and the words don't all end in the same sound, she continues to think she knows what's coming--often not looking at the page to see even the first letter of the word.

 

For example, in today's lesson, the words that were read in the first part all ended in "-ad": pad, had, mad, etc. So after the first two or three words, she looked at the first letter and said the whole word before the second letter was revealed.

 

Then we started reading sentences: Dan can bat. Dan ran. Dad can bat, etc. She sounded out the first sentence. On the second sentence, she first said "Dan can," and then I stopped her, told her to look at the page, and asked her what the first letter in the second word was. When she said, "r," I asked what sound it made and asked why she said the "c" sound. She said she didn't mean to (her standard answer for anything and everything she does wrong). After re-reading the second sentence, she proceeded to the second sentence. She saw the "D," looked up at me, and said "Dan." I told her that the first step to reading is to look at the page.

 

This is how our lessons go. She's capable of doing them, but she insists on going faster than she can, not actually looking at the page to read, but rather do a combination of reading, skimming, and guessing. If I call her on it and tell her to look at the page and the letters that are actually there, she cries and says she can't do it and says she won't do it. If I tell her (unfortunately, more often yell at her in frustration) that she's going to go into time out until she's ready to obey me and pay attention, however, suddenly she can do it just fine and even seems to feel a sense of proud accomplishment when she gets it right.

 

I do not want to teach her that she doesn't have to do school if she doesn't want to. I do not want to get frustrated and yell at her and make reading a negative experience for her (or for me). I do not want her to dread doing school. I do want her to experience and enjoy that feeling of accomplishment. I do want her to develop confidence that she can do this--and I know she *can* do this if she'll just pay attention to what she's doing.

 

So how do I get her to slow down and pay attention to what she's doing before it gets to the threatening time out phase?

[mymomtime]

My four year old did/does the same thing. I sometimes switch to writing the words on a whiteboard. I haven't figured out sentences totally yet for my son. My son also seems to be a more whole word reader. He knows the phonics/sounds, but seems to decode whole words. For him I only isolate sounds when he isn't sounding it out. Sometimes that works, other times he just keeps guessing.

 

I also do it orally. I'll spell the word and he can sometimes sound it out better than seeing it. His eyes are fine.

 

OPGTR worked really well for us, until we hit the long vowels. I don't think he was ready for the long vowels. We are really getting those short vowels and blends down and going back to long vowels after the first of the year.

[MotherGoose]

I think it's a maturity issue. She's only four. I'd slow down and wait. Use moveable letters and put out one letter at a time. Read aloud to her and play games. After Christmas start again and see how it goes.

[Caribbean Queen]

 She said she didn't mean to (her standard answer for anything and everything she does wrong). 

 

... she cries and says she can't do it and says she won't do it. If I tell her (unfortunately, more often yell at her in frustration) that she's going to go into time out until she's ready to obey me and pay attention,

 

She's telling you she is not ready for this.  Back off. 

[desertflower]

I would not put her in time out if you want her to enjoy learning how to read.

 

Two things come to mind.

1. I think she's bored. If you know she can do cvc words, then I would move on. Try using a different tactic. Perhaps more game related. I bought aar just for ideas for games and it worked. Of course, mine was little over 5 at the time.

 

2. She's still young. I have my 4 year read 3 words a week from the whiteboard. She can read cvc and some cvcc words. If she wants to do a lesson, then we do. If not, then we don't. No hurry. She does love being read to and that's what is important to me.

 

Hth

[FO4UR]

She's 4yo. She's looking at her Mommy instead of the page.

 

 

This is not a discipline issue.  It's a maturity issue.  If you would have told me that she was 7yo and looking away from the page to guess, I would have thought maybe it's a vision issue.

 

 

Put the book away on the shelf.  After she goes to bed at night, sneak a peek at what patterns are coming next.  Practice those patterns with alphabet magnets on the fridge in the morning.  Practice writing those letters on a big chalkboard, no pressure b/c she's 4yo.  Another variation is mom writes one sound at a time on the board, dd shouts out the sounds, and then she blends the word.  You can take her through all of the phonograms/phonics patterns this way.

 

Give her a piece of junk mail or newspaper.  Have her circle or highlight a specific word, or 3 specific words.  'the' is blue, 'and' is green, 'of' is pink...use this to review.

 

Happy Phonics is excellent.

 

Back off with the pressure, way back. Save some of that for the preteen years when you'll both need it.

[msjones]

She's little.  Lots of little kids don't want to do reading lessons.  Maybe they just want mom to read to them and they want to play and pretend to read and write.  

 

There is plenty of time, and she sounds like a bright little girl who will be a good reader! 

 

Consider taking a break.  The battle over the lessons won't be worth it if she learns to fight reading lessons.  

[Crimson Wife]

My almost 6 y.o. will do the guessing- rather-than-decoding thing. Her siblings never did that but reading came easier for them once they cracked the code.

 

At 4, I would be inclined to shelve formal phonics for a bit.

[Ellie]

I have been going through OPGTR with my 4yo daughter. We're on Lesson 30, one of the lessons using the short-A sound. She knows all the letters and their sounds, and when she wants to, she can sound out words just fine. Ability, readiness from an academic standpoint--those are not the issues we're having.

 

The problem we're having is that my daughter often refuses to look at the page. It isn't that she's tired; we'll have just started the lesson. It's that the words are so repetitive that she thinks she knows what's coming up, so she'll look at the page for the first letter, then just say the whole word before I uncover the rest of the letters. Then, when we're reading sentences and the words don't all end in the same sound, she continues to think she knows what's coming--often not looking at the page to see even the first letter of the word.

 

For example, in today's lesson, the words that were read in the first part all ended in "-ad": pad, had, mad, etc. So after the first two or three words, she looked at the first letter and said the whole word before the second letter was revealed.

 

Then we started reading sentences: Dan can bat. Dan ran. Dad can bat, etc. She sounded out the first sentence. On the second sentence, she first said "Dan can," and then I stopped her, told her to look at the page, and asked her what the first letter in the second word was. When she said, "r," I asked what sound it made and asked why she said the "c" sound. She said she didn't mean to (her standard answer for anything and everything she does wrong). After re-reading the second sentence, she proceeded to the second sentence. She saw the "D," looked up at me, and said "Dan." I told her that the first step to reading is to look at the page.

 

This is how our lessons go. She's capable of doing them, but she insists on going faster than she can, not actually looking at the page to read, but rather do a combination of reading, skimming, and guessing. If I call her on it and tell her to look at the page and the letters that are actually there, she cries and says she can't do it and says she won't do it. If I tell her (unfortunately, more often yell at her in frustration) that she's going to go into time out until she's ready to obey me and pay attention, however, suddenly she can do it just fine and even seems to feel a sense of proud accomplishment when she gets it right.

 

I do not want to teach her that she doesn't have to do school if she doesn't want to. I do not want to get frustrated and yell at her and make reading a negative experience for her (or for me). I do not want her to dread doing school. I do want her to experience and enjoy that feeling of accomplishment. I do want her to develop confidence that she can do this--and I know she *can* do this if she'll just pay attention to what she's doing.

 

So how do I get her to slow down and pay attention to what she's doing before it gets to the threatening time out phase?

 

:blink:

 

Girlfriend, I say this with all love: STOP IT!!!

 

She's only 4yo. ONLY 4yo. There is no reason on God's green earth that you should expect a *4YO* child to do school. And putting her in time out? No. Just...no.

 

She does not need to Do School to experience and enjoy the feeling of accomplishment. Life is full of opportunities that don't look anything like school; that's what you should be focusing on.

 

[chepyl]

At 4, my son was ready to read. He focused easily and he learned quickly with 100ez lessons. He still had off days. On those days, we stopped.

 

At 4, my daughter desperately wanted to read so that she could read books to the new baby. She was not ready. When she asked, we tried. But I did not push and definitely did not punish for normal 4 yo focus issues.

 

She is 4. Play games, read to her and back off. She will learn to read and it will be fine.

[ElizabethB]

I would not do more than 5 minutes a day with a 4 year old, and all fun, fun colors with colored marker or magnetic letters on a whiteboard for a few words and my phonics concentration game, which discourages guessing because it makes both real and nonsense words.

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Phonics/concentrationgam.html

[Amira]

I remember feeling some of these things with my oldest (I'm finally getting past it with my youngest).  It can be hard to back off when you feel like they're ready for it and it's something as amazing as reading, but I really think that's the best thing to do.  

 

You're not at all wrong for being motivated about this.  It can be hard to teach someone to read.  Just try to make it a positive experience for both of you if possible.  You have plenty of time right now.

[lea1]

I also started teaching my two sons to read when they were 4.  It didn't take long that they would moan and groan when I brought out the OPGTR book.  I knew they could do it but I had to be creative and make it a little more fun and very short to begin with.  I put the individual words on index cars and I also put sentences on the cards.  If I needed a reminder to me about the lesson so I would not forget something, I would put a little note to me on the card.  So there was no 'school book'.  It was just a fun game. 

 

This made all the difference to my sons.  They felt like it was a game.  If they could sound out the word or read the sentence, they kept the card in their pile.  If not, I kept it in my pile (they always got to keep them though;) but they didn't notice that). They loved this and, even though it was a bit more work for me, it was worth it to me because they were reading in no time at all.  Then they were so happy to be able to read, it didn't take too long before we didn't need the cards anymore.

 

I never covered up the letters though.  They always saw the entire word or sentence and I just moved my finger under the letter or word they were working on.  What does she do if you are not covering up the letters of the word?

 

If you are really wanting to teach her to read and you feel she is ready, think of ways to make it a game.  Children love to play games with their parents.  Just keep it short and sweet and stop when she is still having fun.  She won't even think of it as "school"...and, if it were me, I would not really call it school. Save that label for when she really has to do mandatory schooling and you have no choice but to impose consequences to make sure it happens, although by then you probably won't need to anyway:).

 

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Aiden]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

For the record, my daughter is not disciplined for normal 4yo focus issues, for not being able to read, or other developmentally expected things. She is not disciplined for telling me that she *can't* do what I tell her to do (even though her behavior across a range of situations has demonstrated that when she says "I can't," what she really means is "I don't want to," because she'll almost always complete the action quickly and easily if told she can do something fun afterward or if told that she'll have to go into time out if she doesn't do it, and it is apparent to me when she really can't do something, and in that case I help her and teach her how to do it).

 

She *is* disciplined when, after being told to do something, she looks at me with drawn eyebrows, set lips, and crossed arms and says "I won't." That response is disciplined no matter if it happens in the context of school or of being told to go to the bathroom so we can brush her teeth before bed or of being told to come here or in any other context. The defiance is what prompts the discipline--and that won't change; defiance will be disciplined no matter in what context it happens. As she grows older and more mature, she'll earn the right to question us, but at 4 years old, she's expected to obey, and when she doesn't, she's disciplined so that she learns for next time.

 

I will discuss this issue with my husband and show him this thread--we'll talk it out and decide together if we should shelve the phonics for now, figure out a way for me to use OPGTR while making it a game (lots of good suggestions for that, thank you!), or maybe even buy a subscription to something like Reading Eggs--we tried that once, after she enjoyed a free sample lesson, but she got bored and frustrated when she had to start at the beginning with things she already knew in order to earn her way to the cat game she'd seen in the sample; if we decide to buy a subscription, we'll have her do the placement test so she'll start at a more appropriate level.

[SKL]

I suggest checking for vision issues.  When my dd was 3-4 she would always look away from the page when I was reading to her and trying to draw her attention in.  She would even get up and leave the area if looking at books was the other option.  Turns out the words were swimming around on the page and she found it really uncomfortable to look at them.  Vision therapy helped a lot.

[SKL]

And I didn't use a reading curriculum.  We just used a variety of kid books and some word cards and a white board.  It worked better for us.  I think I would have heard groans if I brought out a textbook every day at that age.

[sbgrace]

My top priority in those young ages was to make their experience of school/the connontation in their mind positive. This was especially important when it came to reading. You want her to associate reading with good times with you.

 

Learning to read at 4, or even 5, is simply not important enough to push when she doesn't want to do it in my opinion, even if she's capable. I would absolutely drop this for now. Give both of you a break. When I came back, I would do it with other materials. I would make sure what you use when you start again is pleasant for both of you.

 

That level of frustration over reading lessons is something you want to avoid like the plague imo. I think you'll look back with regret.

 

FWIW, I used I See Sam and Progressive Phonics (free online). It was fun and painless. I also started quite a bit older, but both of mine enjoy reading and read above grade level. You really don't need to do this at her age, and you definitely don't need to do it with tears or anger from either of you.

[regentrude]

She *is* disciplined when, after being told to do something, she looks at me with drawn eyebrows, set lips, and crossed arms and says "I won't." That response is disciplined no matter if it happens in the context of school or of being told to go to the bathroom so we can brush her teeth before bed or of being told to come here or in any other context. The defiance is what prompts the discipline--and that won't change; defiance will be disciplined no matter in what context it happens. As she grows older and more mature, she'll earn the right to question us, but at 4 years old, she's expected to obey, and when she doesn't, she's disciplined so that she learns for next time.

 

This seems to me a pretty sure way to instill a negative attitude towards school work.

 

I am not sure of the benefit in punishing a 4 year old for not being interested in learning to read.

Not wanting to would be a sign for me that she is not ready. Which would be developmentally appropriate.

[meggie]

She's four! Just because she can do it if she tries, doesn't mean you should be forcing her if she doesn't want to. It's ok to just say, "Alright, then we'll try again tomorrow" and put OPGTR away. That's not a discipline issue, that's a maturity issue. There is a time for disciplining for not wanting to do school or saying no. This is not it. This is not it. This is not it. She's four. If you pull the book out and she says no, then put it away.

FTR, my son was ready and was demanding to learn how to read. He'd demand to do more and more lessons. But we did OPGTR on the whiteboard. I don't know why, but for some reason it's better. If I were you, I'd give that a try first instead of disciplining over saying no to reading out of the book.

[meggie]

Oops, double post

[EmilyGF]

If your child were ready for reading instruction at her age, you wouldn't be posting about your current frustrations on this board.

 

Back off. Or make letter cookies, spell out something, make that your final lesson, to end on a positive note, and then come back to lessons in three months. 

[Ellie]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

For the record, my daughter is not disciplined for normal 4yo focus issues, for not being able to read, or other developmentally expected things. She is not disciplined for telling me that she *can't* do what I tell her to do (even though her behavior across a range of situations has demonstrated that when she says "I can't," what she really means is "I don't want to," because she'll almost always complete the action quickly and easily if told she can do something fun afterward or if told that she'll have to go into time out if she doesn't do it, and it is apparent to me when she really can't do something, and in that case I help her and teach her how to do it).

 

She *is* disciplined when, after being told to do something, she looks at me with drawn eyebrows, set lips, and crossed arms and says "I won't." That response is disciplined no matter if it happens in the context of school or of being told to go to the bathroom so we can brush her teeth before bed or of being told to come here or in any other context. The defiance is what prompts the discipline--and that won't change; defiance will be disciplined no matter in what context it happens. As she grows older and more mature, she'll earn the right to question us, but at 4 years old, she's expected to obey, and when she doesn't, she's disciplined so that she learns for next time.

 

I will discuss this issue with my husband and show him this thread--we'll talk it out and decide together if we should shelve the phonics for now, figure out a way for me to use OPGTR while making it a game (lots of good suggestions for that, thank you!), or maybe even buy a subscription to something like Reading Eggs--we tried that once, after she enjoyed a free sample lesson, but she got bored and frustrated when she had to start at the beginning with things she already knew in order to earn her way to the cat game she'd seen in the sample; if we decide to buy a subscription, we'll have her do the placement test so she'll start at a more appropriate level.

 

She's just 4. She isn't old enough yet to be able to articulate to you her frustration with being asked to do something that is not developmentally appropriate. She can only behave "defiantly," because that's all she has in her arsenal.

 

It seems to me that it would be better for *you* to try to avoid those non-essential activities which elicit the behavior that you attribute to her defiance. She does NOT need to read at 4yo. That is a non-essential. You're setting her up for failure and discipline.

 

[FO4UR]

This truly is not a discipline issue.  I promise.  Do not turn it into one.  Asking "Would you rather play with letter magnets or playdoh?" is an easy way to give her a choice to do some informal school or not. *BEFORE* frustration sets in with the letter work, say "OK, time for playdoh!"  If she really wants to continue with letters then, "You can play letters some more while mommy fixes lunch." 

 

 

She's looking up at you for a cue when she feels lost.  This is baby behavior.  She is still part baby.  Give her the needed cues, gently, and move on to other things.

 

There are plenty of sub-skills to reading/writing to work on that are actually age-appropriate right now, and will be "too babyish" at age 6. Build her fine motor skills.  Build her phonemic awareness.  Build her visual acuity.  Build her working memory. Read aloud to her!

 

There are ways to build a positive relationship with your dd so that homeschooling long-term is a delight and not torture for you both.  Many of us have btdt with our oldest dc and want to save you the pain and frustration. 

 

 

ETA:  I think you will both enjoy Happy Phonics.  Try it.

[Soror]

Please, please for the love of Pete, just STOP. A 4 yo doesn't have to have formal lessons, some are ready and many are not. What she is being taught is to dread school. It is a normal developmental pattern that she is able to do some things at some times and not at others, punishing her for this is not appropriate. She has plenty of time, really. 

[Aiden]

From some of the responses, it appears that some of you missed the whole point of my initial post. My question was: how can I change what I'm doing with my daughter so we don't get to the point where she becomes defiant and discipline becomes necessary?

 

Some of you responded with ways to make learning to read more fun and/or interesting for my daughter. Thank you. Others replied with the reasonable suggestion that I shelve the phonics lessons until her maturity has caught up with her academic ability. Thank you.

 

Some of you responded by attacking my decision to teach my 4yo to read, or by attacking our decision to punish unacceptable behavior in all contexts, without giving a pass because it occurs in a school context. No, thank you. As I stated earlier, we cannot accept defiance, and we will discipline every time it happens. That is why I asked the original question about how to prevent it from getting to that point, because I know that I need to discipline that behavior every time it occurs, even though I also already know that repeatedly having to discipline in a school setting is a bad thing.

 

My husband and I have decided to take a break from phonics for the rest of the week while I figure out ways to make it more interesting for our daughter (trying some of your suggestions; thank you). When we start again, I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues from her that we should put it aside again for a while, but if she becomes defiant, she will be disciplined for that defiance. Depending on how it goes, we may try Reading Eggs again in the near future.

 

Thank you again for all of the helpful replies. I think we have a solid plan for moving forward, so I will consider my question answered for now.

[LaughingCat]

She's capable of doing them, but she insists on going faster than she can, not actually looking at the page to read, but rather do a combination of reading, skimming, and guessing. If I call her on it and tell her to look at the page and the letters that are actually there, she cries and says she can't do it and says she won't do it.

 

Saying "look at the page" or "look at the letters that are there" seems like a logical thing to say --  I said it many times myself and it worked just as poorly as it's working for you.   So the first thing I would do is stop saying that. 

 

Then I would stop doing so many repetitions of words with the same ending -- she obviously gets the pattern so mix it up on her.  Do 3 and then do words from previous pages.   Test her on the pattern again later in the day or the next day if she struggles with that ending in the sentences.  Go back and do 3 more if she struggles with it later in the week.  

 

And I would uncover the letters a lot faster.  My 5 yo also starts guessing if things go too slow - so I just uncover the letters very quickly - that way I can still 'show' her the letter combinations (with a minute pause/wiggle of the card) and she doesn't get bored and start guessing.  I will also show her the whole word and then go back and quickly show the letter combos. And I rarely cover the letters in sentences unless she is obviously struggling with a word.  Part of learning to read sentences is learning to see a wider field/scan ahead.

 

If she does mistake a word after showing the letters a lot faster then just point at the incorrect letter and say something like - you said 'n' here but this letter says 'd'   -- here is a youtube link that shows this type of error correction for the Abecedarian program.

[regentrude]

, we cannot accept defiance, and we will discipline every time it happens. That is why I asked the original question about how to prevent it from getting to that point, because I know that I need to discipline that behavior every time it occurs

 

:confused: Why???

 

You are raising a child, not training a dog.

[Pronghorn]

With my daughter, we skipped the formal phonics and just started reading, mostly in real-world contexts. We took walks and read street signs. We went to the grocery store and tried to sound out the labels and figure out what was in the packages. We looked at the labels of our clothes and read what country they were made in. The only time I encountered defiance was when I tried to make my daughter read actual books and she wasn't ready.

 

Now she is older. Just finished reading Herodotus. I think we finished one phonics review book (very thin summary) in her life. That was to help her figure out how to spell. Neither reading nor defiance are a problem.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Sometimes kids refuse to do stuff because they know how important it is to you. 

 

Sounds like she is either bored, not interested, or you are pushing too hard. 

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

OP, why are you refusing to listen to older, more experienced homeschooling parents when they tell you that what you are doing is developmentally inappropriate? When they tell you that it's wrong to push and frustrate your child and then punish her for feeling frustrated? Did you seriously only want to hear how to teach phonics more effectively? Surely you can appreciate that there may be factors other than the intellectual processes at work here. We can see it. We've BTDT. It's not even ambiguous, what's happening here -- you are incorrect about child development and behavior as well as about pedagogy.

 

She is not acting defiant or disrespectful. She is not challenging your authority or being a brat. She is using the body language that comes naturally to tell you that she isn't ready and able to do what you're expecting. I will go so far as to say that punishing a four year old and attributing these negative intentions to her over an academic lesson is abusive. It's not right. You'll hurt your relationship with your daughter, and you'll hurt your later ability to educate her effectively at home if you continue to treat her this way.

 

You can learn about child development and pedagogy. Many homeschooling parents have needed to study these things and keep studying them; you are by no means the first. But you owe it to your daughter to learn how children learn.

[Dramorellis]

No I think you have missed the point of what many people are saying. Stop viewing it as defiance. She is trying to communicate with you in the only ways she knows how when she is frustrated. Stop trying to make her do things she is not ready to do and I assure you her level of defiance will decrease. What if instead of these interactions being met with anger and punishment, you actually teach her (the true meaning of discipline) how to work through her frustrations in an acceptable way together. I have taught two 4 year olds now how to read with no yelling, sitting on my lap and having a nice time with mommy. The minute their attention wanders too much the lesson was over. It is NOT necessary or serious that they learn today. If it gets dropped for days or weeks no worries. There is nothing more important for my 4 year old to learn than that I am their soft landing place. Defiance with school is totally different than defiance because they don't want to leave the park. It is always, always addressed in my home with me listening to them first. Once the tension goes down, hugs, snacks, then we can together find a solution calmly. Even if that solution is that hey, lets shelve this for a few months.

[msjones]

I know you've chosen to take a week off.  

 

Something else to think about -- some of the behavior (guessing) may be the result of fatigue.  Little kids get tired while learning the complex task of reading.

 

Depending on how long the lessons take, you may try really short lessons for a while.  Perhaps set a timer (or, even better, have her set it) for 5 or 7 minutes.  Help her understand that she is expected to cooperate and work her hardest for those 5 minutes.  Try to be specific about what you mean by working hard (i.e. focusing on the letters, looking at the page, listening to her teacher/mom, saying the letter sounds, etc.).

 

She may feel better and ready to really working knowing how long the lesson will last.  And it may be that those short, highly focused, cooperative lessons get better results than the longer lessons that she dreads and resists.  

 

Good luck!

[Soror]

OP, why are you refusing to listen to older, more experienced homeschooling parents when they tell you that what you are doing is developmentally inappropriate?. It's not even ambiguous, what's happening here -- you are incorrect about child development and behavior as well as about pedagogy.

 

She is not acting defiant or disrespectful. She is not challenging your authority or being a brat. She is using the body language that comes naturally to tell you that she isn't ready and able to do what you're expecting. I will go so far as to say that punishing a four year old and attributing these negative intentions to her over an academic lesson is abusive. 

:iagree: I don't know how else to expect a 4yo to respond when being pushed in ways that are developmentally appropriate. This level of academic work wasn't expected for 4yos until very recently and it is still far, far from universal even in the US, not to mention other countries that far outperform us. There is a reason, although some kids can learn at this age, most cannot and when you push them, you are the one acting inappropriately. 

[Aiden]

(Edited to say: Apparently my attempt to quote Regentrude and Tibbie Dunbar was unsuccessful. No matter, I would have needed to edit anyway to add Soror.)

 

You both appear to be missing the point.

 

I asked a question about how to teach phonics in a way that did not frustrate my child. Both of you are insisting that I'm all about the disciplining and that I'm pushing my child and will not listen to advice to stop pushing.

 

Plenty of people in this thread have provided wise advice about how to teach phonics more effectively. Several suggested waiting a while, saying that she does not appear to be ready. In case you missed it in my last post, I acknowledged that both of those positions were heard, are useful, and are contenders for being implemented. Those who said to back off and shelve it for a while were advocating for the same response you advocate for, but much more reasonably. You seem to be intentionally confrontational and attempting to hijack this thread into a discussion of discipline rather than answering the question asked.

 

My last post was an attempt to shut down the hijacking of this thread. You chose not to listen to that, so I'm making it explicit now: I am not interested in discussing our parenting philosophy. I am well aware that we are raising a child, not a dog. I am not abusive to my child.

 

I do know that once threads are started, they often veer off onto unrelated tangents, often in direct opposition to what the original poster had asked and desired the thread to discuss. I have no control over where this thread goes from here. Got it. But no matter what you may believe, I do have some (and growing) knowledge of child development and pedagogy and extensive knowledge of our values and how we want our daughter raised. I have knowledge of my daughter that you do not have and a finer understanding of this situation--one which, btw, has been validated and encouraged by some good advice given by PM from someone who was wise enough not to wade into the fray of this thread but who recognized my daughter's behavior as somewhere she's been and something she's done. And I asked and have listened to advice given here because I know that there are those who have BTDT and who offer wisdom.

 

Any further responses I choose to make will be in response only to constructive suggestions that are relevant to my original question. I will not be discussing our parenting or disciplinary philosophies.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

(Edited to say: Apparently my attempt to quote Regentrude and Tibbie Dunbar was unsuccessful. No matter, I would have needed to edit anyway to add Soror.)

 

You both appear to be missing the point.

 

I asked a question about how to teach phonics in a way that did not frustrate my child. Both of you are insisting that I'm all about the disciplining and that I'm pushing my child and will not listen to advice to stop pushing.

 

Plenty of people in this thread have provided wise advice about how to teach phonics more effectively. Several suggested waiting a while, saying that she does not appear to be ready. In case you missed it in my last post, I acknowledged that both of those positions were heard, are useful, and are contenders for being implemented. Those who said to back off and shelve it for a while were advocating for the same response you advocate for, but much more reasonably. You seem to be intentionally confrontational and attempting to hijack this thread into a discussion of discipline rather than answering the question asked.

 

My last post was an attempt to shut down the hijacking of this thread. You chose not to listen to that, so I'm making it explicit now: I am not interested in discussing our parenting philosophy. I am well aware that we are raising a child, not a dog. I am not abusive to my child.

 

I do know that once threads are started, they often veer off onto unrelated tangents, often in direct opposition to what the original poster had asked and desired the thread to discuss. I have no control over where this thread goes from here. Got it. But no matter what you may believe, I do have some (and growing) knowledge of child development and pedagogy and extensive knowledge of our values and how we want our daughter raised. I have knowledge of my daughter that you do not have and a finer understanding of this situation--one which, btw, has been validated and encouraged by some good advice given by PM from someone who was wise enough not to wade into the fray of this thread but who recognized my daughter's behavior as somewhere she's been and something she's done. And I asked and have listened to advice given here because I know that there are those who have BTDT and who offer wisdom.

 

Any further responses I choose to make will be in response only to constructive suggestions that are relevant to my original question. I will not be discussing our parenting or disciplinary philosophies.

 

:gnorsi:  Good luck.

 

I wasn't being defiant, by the way, so I didn't need quite this level of crochety scolding. But now I do have my arms crossed and my lower lip out. Just so you know.

 

[Farrar]

If you can't see how discipline and parenting go hand in hand with instruction and creating positive associations for learning then I'm not even sure where to begin.

 

The practical advice is, any time she's not doing what you want, say, okay, we're done for the day! You have to approach any learning at this age going in saying if it doesn't work, then it's not a big deal. Sometimes it will work out and be great. Other times it won't. Both are totally normal but you can't punish a kid for the days it doesn't work out. Because it's normal.

[violamama]

I only read about the first five responses but I think you and I are kindred spirits!! 

 

So, gently as I can and with complete understanding, if it's causing you to be frustrated and yell then change the whole thing up. I don't think you need to completely ditch the teaching of phonics, just the teaching of phonics with a book. 

 

I remember being worried it was a discipline issue with my older boy in particular. I still post freak outs here from time to time- I'm apparently an exceptionally slow learner in this area. So I can tell you, she will totally come around, and you need to adjust to her now, and she's way young. 

 

I think my slightly wiser self would use letter tiles, flash cards she herself makes (and draws on with stickers), sidewalk chalk she gets to obliterate with the hose if she reads it, a sticker where a letter should be in about every third word, etc.

[Pronghorn]

Humor and playfulness could help too. Attention spans often increase when your child is joined by stuffed animal classmates. Then you can say, Oops, Doggie is not looking at the page. Playful interaction will reduce the likelihood of defiance.

[SparklyUnicorn]

How about trying songs?  Or videos like Letter Factory.  Those are both very fun and engaging for a lot of kids.

I think what people are trying to say is that there isn't always a magical way to entice a 4 year old into doing things in the way that we want them to. 

 

I had one early reader and one who started reading much later on.  There was nothing magical I did with the early reader.  He actually learned a lot on his own.  At that point I had not done formal reading instruction.  The second child I figured hey I got this.  Nope.  He was totally different.  He was similar in terms of refusing to look at the page, etc.  I just backed off or made the lessons extremely short. 

 

(Edited to say: Apparently my attempt to quote Regentrude and Tibbie Dunbar was unsuccessful. No matter, I would have needed to edit anyway to add Soror.)

 

You both appear to be missing the point.

 

I asked a question about how to teach phonics in a way that did not frustrate my child. Both of you are insisting that I'm all about the disciplining and that I'm pushing my child and will not listen to advice to stop pushing.

 

Plenty of people in this thread have provided wise advice about how to teach phonics more effectively. Several suggested waiting a while, saying that she does not appear to be ready. In case you missed it in my last post, I acknowledged that both of those positions were heard, are useful, and are contenders for being implemented. Those who said to back off and shelve it for a while were advocating for the same response you advocate for, but much more reasonably. You seem to be intentionally confrontational and attempting to hijack this thread into a discussion of discipline rather than answering the question asked.

 

My last post was an attempt to shut down the hijacking of this thread. You chose not to listen to that, so I'm making it explicit now: I am not interested in discussing our parenting philosophy. I am well aware that we are raising a child, not a dog. I am not abusive to my child.

 

I do know that once threads are started, they often veer off onto unrelated tangents, often in direct opposition to what the original poster had asked and desired the thread to discuss. I have no control over where this thread goes from here. Got it. But no matter what you may believe, I do have some (and growing) knowledge of child development and pedagogy and extensive knowledge of our values and how we want our daughter raised. I have knowledge of my daughter that you do not have and a finer understanding of this situation--one which, btw, has been validated and encouraged by some good advice given by PM from someone who was wise enough not to wade into the fray of this thread but who recognized my daughter's behavior as somewhere she's been and something she's done. And I asked and have listened to advice given here because I know that there are those who have BTDT and who offer wisdom.

 

Any further responses I choose to make will be in response only to constructive suggestions that are relevant to my original question. I will not be discussing our parenting or disciplinary philosophies.

 

[Crimson Wife]

 

Learning to read at 4, or even 5, is simply not important enough to push when she doesn't want to do it in my opinion, even if she's capable. I would absolutely drop this for now.

 

I agree with this. My issue is that my little one very much WANTS to do reading practice. She'll pull out the Hooked on Phonics workbook or the first set of BOB books and ask me to do reading. But then she'll guess words randomly based on the first letter rather than actually sounding them out and blending them back together (which she can do, albeit V-E-R-Y S-L-O-W-L-Y). Drives me bonkers!

 

[Pronghorn]

Another thing that might help is talking to the child about learning to read. How does the child feel about it? Mine had a meltdown once because she thought that her learning to read would cause me to quit all those cozy read alouds that we shared. She demanded to know if I would read to her when she was forty. Reassured that I would (assuming that I could still read at the age of 80), she settled peacefully into the task of learning to read.

[kiwik]

Perhaps look at it differently. Do you want to homeschool long term? If so you need to be happy teaching. If it is making you miserable it is probably not the right approach.

 

There are I expect books that would hold the attention of a 4 year old better than OPGTR. Also remember that we can do more than we think we can under pressure but that does not mean we can maintain that level all the time. It may take an immense effort that she can only manage when really pushed. I would consider vision testing except both my kids did the same sort of thing.

 

One thing ds5 liked was having the words on a whiteboard - after hr read them he rubbed them out.

[Mergath]

From some of the responses, it appears that some of you missed the whole point of my initial post. My question was: how can I change what I'm doing with my daughter so we don't get to the point where she becomes defiant and discipline becomes necessary?

 

Some of you responded with ways to make learning to read more fun and/or interesting for my daughter. Thank you. Others replied with the reasonable suggestion that I shelve the phonics lessons until her maturity has caught up with her academic ability. Thank you.

 

Some of you responded by attacking my decision to teach my 4yo to read, or by attacking our decision to punish unacceptable behavior in all contexts, without giving a pass because it occurs in a school context. No, thank you. As I stated earlier, we cannot accept defiance, and we will discipline every time it happens. That is why I asked the original question about how to prevent it from getting to that point, because I know that I need to discipline that behavior every time it occurs, even though I also already know that repeatedly having to discipline in a school setting is a bad thing.

 

My husband and I have decided to take a break from phonics for the rest of the week while I figure out ways to make it more interesting for our daughter (trying some of your suggestions; thank you). When we start again, I will be on the lookout for and receptive to cues from her that we should put it aside again for a while, but if she becomes defiant, she will be disciplined for that defiance. Depending on how it goes, we may try Reading Eggs again in the near future.

 

Thank you again for all of the helpful replies. I think we have a solid plan for moving forward, so I will consider my question answered for now.

 

So basically, what you're saying is that you want to be able to push your child to do work she's not developmentally ready for, but without her having any of those pesky emotions in the process.

 

I see what the problem is.  You don't need a child, you need a pet rock.

 

And please stop telling everyone that they've missed the point.  Everyone here got the point just fine, thanks.  If you keep talking down to everyone who tries to help you, you're going to find it very difficult to get help when you need it in the future.  Adults don't generally appreciate being scolded.

[FO4UR]

I was where you are a few years ago, only I was never so strict with the defiance/discipline issue.  I pushed, but in other ways.  I skipped over many vital things in order to push towards reading.  Joke is on ME...oldest is a raging dyslexic and I did him NO favors by pushing so hard.  It was like expecting a crawling baby to compete in a gymnastics match.

 

 

If a child is resistant to reading lessons, it's b/c there is a prerequisite skill missing...or a few prerequisite skills missing.  The tips and hints I've give are ways to get some phonics/decoding in around the skills that are likely missing in MOST 4yos. 

 

Can she do the monkey bars?  Ride a bike? Dribble a basketball?  Skip?  Crabwalk? Jump with one foot?  Walk backwards?  Use scissors/tweezers?  Cut with a blunt knife?  Do intricate puzzles? Remember a list of 5 things to bring from another room?  Recall 10 objects seen on the morning walk?  Describe several plants and animals in your neighborhood? Play a game like Uno?  Remember songs?  Nursery rhymes? Short poems?  Can she rhyme words as a fun diversion?  Does she retell stories that she's heard you read? Can she draw simple animals/plants?  Can she color with accuracy? Can she eat without making big messes?  Clean up small messes?  Can she wash dishes? Sweep? Wipe windows? Fold small towels?  Can she sew stitches or hand crochet?  Can she button/snap/zip her own clothes?  I could go on...

 

Everything listed above will do more good than reading lessons at age 4.  In fact, if there is anything on that list that is not quite happening yet (which would be expected at 4yo), then you have uncovered some skills that need working on before expecting reading to happen.  Do some kids learn to read before learning to tie their shoes? Yes...but they are the exception. 

 

 

 

Discipline is 75% modeling desired behavior.  If you are reading for pleasure, she wants to read too.

 

It's 20% careful and gentle habit training. The mundane things of life need to be on autopilot so that effort can be used wisely.

 

It's only 5% effort output, and most of that must remain positive or you will unravel it all. Save punishments and "NO" for severe things and emergencies.

 

 

 

 

 

I know you do not want parenting advice, but it is so intertwined with the reading lesson...it's a central factor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LaughingCat]

 Adults don't generally appreciate being scolded.

The irony is rife throughout this thread .... pot, meet kettle

 

I am in total disagreement with OP's thoughts on disobedience and neutral on whether OP's DD is developmentally ready (not enough evidence either way imo) but....   OP was in fact scolded roundly multiple times in this thread before she responded in kind.  I guess it's not a scold if you agree with it and is a scold if you don't?  I must have missed that in the definitions post.

[Momling]

Think of reading like any developmental skill - sitting up, walking, talking, potty training, drawing a figure, tying a shoe, anything....

 

This situation is like a mother who wants her young baby to learn to walk... Every time she stands her baby up, the baby plops back down. In time, the baby cries in frustration or tries to crawl away. Rather than recognize that her child just isn't ready to walk yet and her expectations are unrealistic, the mother is instead upset by her baby's lack of cooperation.

[Mergath]

The irony is rife throughout this thread .... pot, meet kettle

 

I am in total disagreement with OP's thoughts on disobedience and neutral on whether OP's DD is developmentally ready (not enough evidence either way imo) but....   OP was in fact scolded roundly multiple times in this thread before she responded in kind.  I guess it's not a scold if you agree with it and is a scold if you don't?  I must have missed that in the definitions post.

 

I didn't say anything until AFTER the op was rude, so I don't know why you're saying this to me.  She wanted people to give her permission to punish a four-year-old for not being ready for phonics lessons, and when people didn't give that, she lashed out at everyone.  

[Tsuga]

 

My question was: how can I change what I'm doing with my daughter so we don't get to the point where she becomes defiant and discipline becomes necessary?

 

Just do as much reading as she wants and then stop. That is how. ETA: Nowhere in the WORLD are four year olds learning to read as a matter of course--most learn to read at seven.

 

 

I'm all for forcing a child to learn to read by seven or eight, but what is the point at four?

 

Early reading, when spontaneous, is a sign of precociousness and probably somewhat above intelligence, possibly giftedness.

 

Early reading, when forced, is a sign of a mom who needs a part time job and possibly a glass of wine.

 

"I know she *can* do this if she'll just pay attention to what she's doing."

 

Yeah, like I could slam dunk if I was 7 feet tall.

 

Four year olds don't have that level of attention. If you had remarkable kids before her, lucky you--get ready to live life like the rest of us, one battle at a time. :D

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2713445/

 

"Early reading was associated with early academic success, but less lifelong educational attainment and worse midlife adjustment. Early school entry was associated with less educational attainment, worse midlife adjustment, and most importantly, increased mortality risk."

 

http://www.sciencealert.com/late-readers-close-learning-gap

 

"The study controlled for their home literacy environments, the economic situation of their parents, parental education, school decile rating, their vocabulary development (called receptive vocabulary), ethnicity and sex. Their reading fluency and comprehension were then measured and he found there was “no difference†by age 12 in the reading ability between the early and later starters."

[horsellian]

ETA: Nowhere in the WORLD are four year olds learning to read as a matter of course--most learn to read at seven.

 

Just as a point of information, that's not true.  In England (and I think Wales) 4-year-olds are routinely taught to read, as the first year of school is 4-5 year olds. (The youngest children in the class turn 4 on 31 August, with a school year that starts 1 September or a few days later, so most children are 4 for a good part or all of the school year).

[EmilyGF]

Just as a point of information, that's not true.  In England (and I think Wales) 4-year-olds are routinely taught to read, as the first year of school is 4-5 year olds. (The youngest children in the class turn 4 on 31 August, with a school year that starts 1 September or a few days later, so most children are 4 for a good part or all of the school year).

Yet, around the corner, the "ghetto" school teaches kids to read at 4.

 

Down the street, the $27K/year private school teaches kids to read at 6. Before that, they play and dance and make music. Yes, you can pay $27K/year for your child to play.

 

The "ghetto" kids never catch up to the rich kids. When you learn to read doesn't really matter...