Some thoughts on racism ......

[Home'scool]

These are just some rambling thoughts - I hope I can come to some conclusion somewhere in here!

 

I am a white, middle class female. The only prejudice I have personally experienced is from a female perspective. I am well aware that I do not have to deal with racism on a daily basis.

 

Last weekend my sister and I went into a really nice yarn store that is located in a small, predominately white community. They have a lovely back room set up with tables and a small kitchen to make tea/coffee, etc. Really a lovely place to sit and browse thru books. When my sister and I walked in there were 3 other ladies already in the room knitting. I said something like "oh, how smart of you ladies to bring a knitting project here!" Complete silence. No one responded at all. It was quite an awkward moment. Then, a little while later, one of the ladies put on a poncho that she had been working on with the help of the shop owner to show how it had turned out. Everyone, including my sister and I, started to exclaim how nice it looked, etc. She never even looked at us or acknowledged us. Finally my sister and I packed up and left. We chuckled the whole way home that "no one liked us" and we were obviously "friendless", but then I thought that if I was black, or wearing a head scarf, or something like that, I would perhaps assume it was because of that.

 

I have no idea why they were so rude and unapproachable, but I realized I immediately thought it had nothing to do with me, it must be them. The burden of feeling rejected because of my race is something I do not have to deal with. On the other hand, if I was black, I would probably count that as another example of racism when it really wasn't.

 

Another example: My husband and I and another couple made reservations in the city at a small but popular restaurant that we had never been to. When we arrived we entered the restaurant only to realize there was no waiting area, you literally were walking into the eating area. The hostess came rushing over and quite brusquely waved her hand at us and said "could you please wait outside on the sidewalk until we call you?!" I guess this is how they do it. We laughed it off that we were obviously such unsavory characters that they shooed us outside - but again, it never crossed our mind that the hostess was racist because we are white. And if we were black would we have assumed that such poor treatment was an example of racism?

 

I know racism exists and is still a huge problem, but I wonder how many times people think they are the victim of prejudice when really the other person is just rude or unsociable or flustered or any number of reasons that does not have to do with race?

[LucyStoner]

These are just some rambling thoughts - I hope I can come to some conclusion somewhere in here!

 

I am a white, middle class female. The only prejudice I have personally experienced is from a female perspective. I am well aware that I do not have to deal with racism on a daily basis.

 

Last weekend my sister and I went into a really nice yarn store that is located in a small, predominately white community. They have a lovely back room set up with tables and a small kitchen to make tea/coffee, etc. Really a lovely place to sit and browse thru books. When my sister and I walked in there were 3 other ladies already in the room knitting. I said something like "oh, how smart of you ladies to bring a knitting project here!" Complete silence. No one responded at all. It was quite an awkward moment. Then, a little while later, one of the ladies put on a poncho that she had been working on with the help of the shop owner to show how it had turned out. Everyone, including my sister and I, started to exclaim how nice it looked, etc. She never even looked at us or acknowledged us. Finally my sister and I packed up and left. We chuckled the whole way home that "no one liked us" and we were obviously "friendless", but then I thought that if I was black, or wearing a head scarf, or something like that, I would perhaps assume it was because of that.

 

...

I know racism exists and is still a huge problem, but I wonder how many times people think they are the victim of prejudice when really the other person is just rude or unsociable or flustered or any number of reasons that does not have to do with race?

If only it were as gray as being ignored. Trust me when I say you learn the subtle differences between a rude or unsociable person and a person who, for instance, thinks my nephew is a problem to be watched until they see me hand him a juice box or push him on the swings. It's written in a series of very subtle social cues.

[Miss Peregrine]

If only it were as gray as being ignored. Trust me when I say you learn the subtle differences between a rude or unsociable person and a person who, for instance, thinks my nephew is a problem to be watched until they see me hand him a juice box or push him on the swings. It's written in a series of very subtle social cues.

I agree with this. My son is treated very differently on a playground before people know his mom is white. I see it a lot.

[Tanaqui]

I know racism exists and is still a huge problem, but I wonder how many times people think they are the victim of prejudice when really the other person is just rude or unsociable or flustered or any number of reasons that does not have to do with race?

 

That's the problem with structural racism. You DON'T know, not on an individual level. But on a societal level, the effects of racism are made clear.

[Laurel]

If only it were as gray as being ignored. Trust me when I say you learn the subtle differences between a rude or unsociable person and a person who, for instance, thinks my nephew is a problem to be watched until they see me hand him a juice box or push him on the swings. It's written in a series of very subtle social cues.

 

But sometimes it is gray. This is commonly brought up when talking about white privilege, and (from my understanding, as a white female myself), it's not about one incident, it's about a pattern, the institutionalized racism. And it's one of the things that (again IMHO), makes it difficult to understand privilege. To understand, one asks for specific examples, i.e. being followed/watched closely in a store, or a rude cashier, or being pulled over by the police. And (partly bc it is human nature to identify with other people), you (original poster) can think, yes, I remember the time I dealt with the rude/unsocialized people at that store. And because it happened once, or relatively infrequently, you can tell yourself (rightly) that it wasn't about you. But what if it happened in EVERY store you went to? Would you still be able to rationalize that it wasn't about you? So, sure, in some of those instances it could just be rude people who are like that to everyone, but taken as a whole, looking at the pattern and frequency, the message is clear that racism is a factor.

[Slache]

So I just don't get what we white women are supposed to do about it...

 

There is nothing. As an average person nothing is the best thing one can do. A racist hiding their racism would argue that a black person deserves the same rights as a white person because they're equal. A non racist person doesn't feel the need to argue a fact. I have not made racial differences a point of conversation in our home. My children, still very young, don't feel differently about differing nationalities. I have nothing to say about the grand scale of things or politics. But just love everyone equally. Making racism a thing will make racism a thing.

[Guest]

I as a white woman was blatantly criticized by black members of my community for reaching out and helping a couple of black homeless men.  Even after getting one signed up to start receiving SS, food stamps and finding him a place to live....I still must have had a motive for doing it.  He was told by countless blacks, in front of me, to not trust my family because "those white folk don't want nothing but your money".  Thank goodness he listened to his aunt and uncle when they told him to accept the help we gave.  We didn't give it because we were rich or thought we were better than he was.  Not even close.  Dh met him when we were doing outreach, and felt a very nagging call to help him out.  

 

How is it ok that other blacks in our community talked trash about me when I was helping out one of "their own." (Their words.)  It goes both ways, and there is a much broader spectrum of it than people realize.

[Home'scool]

I go through this type of argument with my husband. He insists that sexual harassment is not an issue any more. I (and my two daughters) just want to smack him when he says this! He is not a female walking down the street feeling uncomfortable, he is not raked over by some man's eyes on the subway ...... because he does not experience these things on a regular basis he just assumes that rampant sexual harassment is a thing of the past.

 

I always say to him "You are an American, white, middle class, heterosexual, college educated, Christian male. When have you EVER experienced ANY prejudice?!"

 

Those on the top of the heap don't always have the capability of seeing it.

[SKL]

When I was younger, I probably would have assumed it was my hair or old coat or shoes that people didn't like.  (Now, I am too old to care what their malfunction is.)

 

I agree with you, but I also know that people with visible differences will wonder if they're being marginalized, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly.  I am careful to extend a welcoming smile or other gesture so there is no doubt (hopefully).  Normally I am an introverted person who does not like talking to strangers, but I don't want my normal "cold" demeanor to hurt anyone.

[LucyStoner]

But sometimes it is gray. This is commonly brought up when talking about white privilege, and (from my understanding, as a white female myself), it's not about one incident, it's about a pattern, the institutionalized racism. And it's one of the things that (again IMHO), makes it difficult to understand privilege. To understand, one asks for specific examples, i.e. being followed/watched closely in a store, or a rude cashier, or being pulled over by the police. And (partly bc it is human nature to identify with other people), you (original poster) can think, yes, I remember the time I dealt with the rude/unsocialized people at that store. And because it happened once, or relatively infrequently, you can tell yourself (rightly) that it wasn't about you. But what if it happened in EVERY store you went to? Would you still be able to rationalize that it wasn't about you? So, sure, in some of those instances it could just be rude people who are like that to everyone, but taken as a whole, looking at the pattern and frequency, the message is clear that racism is a factor.

Institutionalized racism is way more a series of bias events. It's a lot more than being unwelcome in a hotel lobby or stared at while at the opera or even followed at the candy store. Institutionalized racism is the disproportionality in drug sentences, the wealth gap between the average AA family and the average white family, the achievement gap in school etc.

 

All I am saying is that when you've experienced those bias events up close (and I have, as the white sister of a black brother), you learn to tell when it's about race and when it might be more gray than that. The OP was suggesting that maybe people think it's race when it is not with some frequency. I am saying it IS race with unfortunate frequency.

[LucyStoner]

I go through this type of argument with my husband. He insists that sexual harassment is not an issue any more. I (and my two daughters) just want to smack him when he says this! He is not a female walking down the street feeling uncomfortable, he is not raked over by some man's eyes on the subway ...... because he does not experience these things on a regular basis he just assumes that rampant sexual harassment is a thing of the past.

 

I always say to him "You are an American, white, middle class, heterosexual, college educated, Christian male. When have you EVER experienced ANY prejudice?!"

 

Those on the top of the heap don't always have the capability of seeing it.

In college, this was how a popular professor opened the discussion on race. Women see and experience gender bias when many men do not directly in the day to day. So he'd have women share their stories and then let students see that the same thing goes on with race.

[LucyStoner]

We bother because we are required to love each other, even when we don't understand each other.

 

I, for one, don't think we are doomed. Racism is a challenge to be addressed, it does not make life not worth living.

[shawthorne44]

OP, I see your point.  I remember one time in college a friend and I went to this tucked away diner that I'd always wanted to try.  They wouldn't seat us and we eventually took a seat because we thought maybe we were supposed to.  Then they refused to serve us or even look us in the eye.  We left.  I decided that the diner was not interested in outsiders.  But, I remember thinking how outraged I would be if I'd thought it was prejudice.  Being refused service in a restaurant is a pretty clear-cut thing.  But because I was white I figured it had nothing to do with me.  Although in hindsight maybe it was my friend.  I never knew his family ancestry.  Maybe Southern Europe or middle east or a mix.  It never really registered with me.  He shrugged it off along with me, so I don't think prejudice was normally a problem for him.  

 

[hornblower]

So I just don't get what we white women are supposed to do about it...  All of these threads have left me depressed.  I obviously don't get it, but so what if I do, what difference will it make???  I don't think I can get it...  Back in my hole.

 

Being an ally is a critically powerful thing to do. People who are marginalized need those who have more power to a) recognize they have more power and b ) consult with the marginalized & use their power to drive change.

 

Use it to speak out. Use it to protest. Use it to stand up, say 'this is wrong' and leave the room when anyone make an 'offcolor' joke or comment at a family dinner.

 

Since this is a homeschool board, you can use use the resources on www.tolerance.org to teach yourself & your children. For example, their resource Civil Rights Done Right. http://www.tolerance.org/publication/civil-rights-done-right

 

Change happens because people make change happen. Be the change you want to see in the world.

 

[creekland]

SO WHAT...  IT EXISTS.   ALL I GET IS DEPRESSED BECUASE IT IS OBVIOUS THAT NEITHER SIDE UNDERSTANDS THE OTHER.  SO WE ARE DOOMED.  THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING.  I DONT GET YOU.  yOU DONT GET ME..  I GIVE UP.  WHY BOTHER.

 

I don't think we're doomed.  I rarely see students who are prejudiced if their parents/relatives aren't also that way.  I think we are making progress overall.

 

As a pp suggested, most of the time doing nothing is the correct thing.  Keep living life as if everyone is equal ('cause they are).  Kids pick up on this and model accordingly.  It doesn't need to be taught in words the vast majority of the time.  

 

We traveled all over the US and a good part of Canada when my kids were young and we'd often buy food from a local grocery store to eat at parks.  Our kids would play on the playgrounds and sometimes in the pools.  Not once did they care what color their playmates were and not once did we mention it.  A couple of times they were the only white kids there, but if they noticed, they didn't care.  Many times there was a mix.  I thought it was great.  

 

Hubby mentioned it a few times... his background is on the challenge thread.  My MIL would have been livid - and fearful.  But with just a couple of generation changes, that racist line is dead while the line itself continues.  That's a plus.

 

When should it be mentioned?  For me, I'll respond to prejudice in school whenever I hear it from a student.  I won't condemn the student directly or tell them to quit saying anything.  Doing so more or less reinforces their views to be honest.  But I challenge their views according to the situation.  I try to get them to truly think about what they are saying.  I'll bring up that situation with my MIL (on the other thread) to use an example.  I'll ask them how they figured out which line to get in so they could win the birth lottery.  More often than not, given time, racist students soften their views and eventually give them up.  They may still think the thoughts they were taught, but then they correct themselves.  The next generation now has hope.

 

With adults, silence is often the best answer or something more witty.  It can be a tough call.  Again, being nasty rarely changes anyone.  Getting them to think can.  Going along with them is never right IMO.

 

It can be tough to break stereotypes just as it is with the homeschooling stereotype.  Any one person isn't likely to change the world, but any one person can make a difference in their world as they see a need.  Just remember to treat everyone normal (the same) when there isn't a problem being stated or seen.  That really is the goal.

[Slartibartfast]

SO WHAT...  IT EXISTS.   ALL I GET IS DEPRESSED BECUASE IT IS OBVIOUS THAT NEITHER SIDE UNDERSTANDS THE OTHER.  SO WE ARE DOOMED.  THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING.  I DONT GET YOU.  yOU DONT GET ME..  I GIVE UP.  WHY BOTHER.

You know, I find this really offensive.

 

I am sorry it depresses you but some people have to live with it every day.

 

I for one do want to see things change so I think discussing it is a good thing.

[Slartibartfast]

But things don't ever change.  Ever.  I don't care how many "difficult" conversations you have....  See now you are mad at me... This is why I should just stay off of here.  I don't see racism around me.  I'm sorry.  I don't.  I'm just nice and people are nice back, whether they are black, Hispanic, white or from other countries....  I'm really sorry, but this is what I mean.   Everyone is upset.....

I am mad because you are saying threads should be shut down while you don't even experience this issue.

 

Multiple people have said they are in the St Louis area, multiple people have been sharing experiences. People who have to live with this want the discussion.

[Slartibartfast]

Seeking, things DO change. Black Americans were SLAVES a mere 150 years ago. They were considered little more than dogs then. A hundred years later was the civil rights movement, which made a difference. Are things perfect? No. But it is getting better, slowly but surely. Yes, things do change and get better - in time. Don't give up. Galatians 6:9. :)

My mother attended segregated schools, the Civil Rights movement wasn't that long ago, the kids who were Kindergarten in those first integrated classrooms are not much older than me.

 

Things can get better but people have to want them to get better.

[SKL]

But things don't ever change.  Ever. 

 

Well, I can understand why you are saying this, because that is often the tone of some people's posts.  The fact is that things have changed a lot over the years - over the decades.  Even when I was a kid racism was much more accepted and tangible than it is now.  Integration is the norm, which wasn't the case when I was a kid.  There is a lot less distrust than there used to be.

 

I remember going to a magnet school for a one-day gifted program, and a couple of the kids were black.  I was surprised and mentioned this to my mom.  (The idea that a black kid could be really smart??)  She responded that naturally they had to send someone from the all-black schools, and those boys were probably just the smartest in that school, not actually gifted.  I can't see a conversation like that occurring today, at least not in my neck of the woods.  Oh, and the fact that we have a black President (among many others in high places) is not insignificant.

 

Yet until racism is dead, people aren't going to be "satisfied," nor should they be.  People are going to be passionate, as they should be.  It probably would be a good idea to occasionally reflect back on what we have accomplished, though, to show that it isn't a futile race to run.

[MrsMommy]

I think as homeschooling parents, there is something, a lot of things, we can do. I, for one, am going to make damn sure that my kids aren't raised with the same prejudices I was. I try to make sure they're involved in activities where they're not only with people just like them. And I make sure that we take an honest look at history, not just the pleasant stuff that everybody wants to read about, but the ugly stuff, too, that shouldn't have happened, but shouldn't be forgotten or diminished.

 

I may not be able to change the world, but I can change my house, and that's a start. If more people took the time to intentionally do that, the world really could change.

[Slartibartfast]

Well, I can understand why you are saying this, because that is often the tone of some people's posts.  The fact is that things have changed a lot over the years - over the decades.  Even when I was a kid racism was much more accepted and tangible than it is now.  Integration is the norm, which wasn't the case when I was a kid.  There is a lot less distrust than there used to be.

 

I remember going to a magnet school for a one-day gifted program, and a couple of the kids were black.  I was surprised and mentioned this to my mom.  (The idea that a black kid could be really smart??)  She responded that naturally they had to send someone from the all-black schools, and those boys were probably just the smartest in that school, not actually gifted.  I can't see a conversation like that occurring today, at least not in my neck of the woods.  Oh, and the fact that we have a black President (among many others in high places) is not insignificant.

 

Yet until racism is dead, people aren't going to be "satisfied," nor should they be.  People are going to be passionate, as they should be.  It probably would be a good idea to occasionally reflect back on what we have accomplished, though, to show that it isn't a futile race to run.

I agree, I was born in the 70s, I cannot imagine what some people were going through during that time period. We have come a long way.

[Mergath]

There is nothing. As an average person nothing is the best thing one can do. A racist hiding their racism would argue that a black person deserves the same rights as a white person because they're equal. A non racist person doesn't feel the need to argue a fact. I have not made racial differences a point of conversation in our home. My children, still very young, don't feel differently about differing nationalities. I have nothing to say about the grand scale of things or politics. But just love everyone equally. Making racism a thing will make racism a thing.

 

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that anyone who talks openly about how to combat racism is secretly a racist?   :confused1:

[LucyStoner]

An aside...

 

I was watching "Finding Our Roots" on PBS last night (LOVE that show!), and last night's episode was about DNA heritage.

 

In the show they explained about how nearly all African Americans have roughly 25% white/European genetics, if not even more. It pretty much stems from the fact that slave owners sired children with slaves. Regardless of how or why it happened, it does blur the line between the "us vs them" racial divide, doesn't it?

Yet at the same time it also calls the not so distant legacy of humans *owning other humans* into sharp focus. It's impossible to look at those statistics and not feel a fair bit of sadness.

[DawnM]

Ok, why do we need "thoughts" on racism?  Why do we need single anecdotal references that basically claim, "I knew this one black person this one time" that so very much reminds me of homeschooling critics who start with, "I knew this one homeschooling family this one time" and therefore they are ALL like that.

 

Don't we have more insight than that?  Really?  

 

I am so upset reading all of these racism threads and comments.  I haven't said much.

 

Here is the bottom line........do you respect and treat people the same regardless of their ethnicity?  When you walk on an airplane and see a black pilot, do you have the exact same thoughts as walking on that same airplane and seeing a white pilot?  When a black doctor comes in to perform your heart surgery, do you have the exact same thoughts as when a white doctor walks in to perform your heart surgery?

 

Unless you are describing someone for a specific purpose, you shouldn't even mention race.  

 

Frustrated,

 

Dawn

[mommymilkies]

There is nothing. As an average person nothing is the best thing one can do. A racist hiding their racism would argue that a black person deserves the same rights as a white person because they're equal. A non racist person doesn't feel the need to argue a fact. I have not made racial differences a point of conversation in our home. My children, still very young, don't feel differently about differing nationalities. I have nothing to say about the grand scale of things or politics. But just love everyone equally. Making racism a thing will make racism a thing.

I think I would have somewhat agreed with you at one point.  I used that with my children.  Until we moved to a very rural 99% white town with racist issues (KKK propaganda dispersed, etc.).  ANd this town isn't even THAT bad compared to some I've lived in.  And my 4th child decided she was terrified of people of color and thought they were strange, different, and threatening.  I was horrified.  Shocked, disgusted, and really feel like I've failed.  Me teaching my kids that color doesn't matter didn't make a darn difference to my one child who was raised without diversity.  I was raised and raised my oldest three in diverse cultures.  They "get" it.  My 4th does not.  She's making progress.  We're working on it.  We talk a lot about racism, slavery, inequality, and the wonderful differences in people now and I can see a change.  I had to make it an issue for her to understand there's nothing to be afraid of in other races. 

 

SO WHAT...  IT EXISTS.   ALL I GET IS DEPRESSED BECUASE IT IS OBVIOUS THAT NEITHER SIDE UNDERSTANDS THE OTHER.  SO WE ARE DOOMED.  THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING.  I DONT GET YOU.  yOU DONT GET ME..  I GIVE UP.  WHY BOTHER.

 

I gently suggest you walk away from these threads.  Also, all caps: screaming.

But things don't ever change.  Ever.  I don't care how many "difficult" conversations you have....  See now you are mad at me... This is why I should just stay off of here.  I don't see racism around me.  I'm sorry.  I don't.  I'm just nice and people are nice back, whether they are black, Hispanic, white or from other countries....  I'm really sorry, but this is what I mean.   Everyone is upset.....

Actually, they do.  Otherwise we'd still have legalized slavery, lack of voting rights, or heck, a King. Nobody is mad at you.  Sad that you're hopeless, yes.  A little irritated that you want the threads closed, yes.  But I don't hate you!

 

But the fact that you don't see racism around you shows your privilege.  We are all privileged in some way.  Color of skin, family background, economic background and current economic status, where we live, clean water, etc. 

 

But don't be ashamed of that.  It took me a long time to not be ashamed because of my privilege.  I was not economically or religiously privileged, but I do have the privilege of skin color and several other things (sexual orientation, etc.). But we can use our privilege and try to understand and help those who are not privileged.  That's our responsibility.  Change is slow, but don't give up.

[The Girls' Mom]

Our society has come a long, long way in race issues.  We still have a long, long way to go.

I know in our small town, the change in the past 50 years has been enormous.  My MIL's generation saw the first desegregated school in our area.  KKK members actually blew up the school.  The hate here was wide open and awful.  Now?  Mixed race couples can walk through town without fearing for their lives.  Kids of all colors go to the same schools and play together.  It is no longer ok to be openly racist here.  Does it still exist? Definitely.  But it IS getting better.  With each generation it has been getting better.  I pray that OUR generation doesn't mess it up and set us back.  

What do I do to help fight it?  I don't let my kids think that it is EVER ok to treat someone differently/poorly because of where they are from or how they look.  They have seen me and my husband stand up to our own parents and family against racism.  We have friends that are PEOPLE from all sorts of backgrounds.  Just the way we live our lives and how our children see that will have a big impact on the future generations of our family.  

[Slache]

I think I would have somewhat agreed with you at one point.  I used that with my children.  Until we moved to a very rural 99% white town with racist issues (KKK propaganda dispersed, etc.).  ANd this town isn't even THAT bad compared to some I've lived in.  And my 4th child decided she was terrified of people of color and thought they were strange, different, and threatening.  I was horrified.  Shocked, disgusted, and really feel like I've failed.  Me teaching my kids that color doesn't matter didn't make a darn difference to my one child who was raised without diversity.  I was raised and raised my oldest three in diverse cultures.  They "get" it.  My 4th does not.  She's making progress.  We're working on it.  We talk a lot about racism, slavery, inequality, and the wonderful differences in people now and I can see a change.  I had to make it an issue for her to understand there's nothing to be afraid of in other races. 

Yes, that definitely wasn't taken into account when I made that comment. I live in a diverse area with multicultural friends. I'm sorry for your situation, but you definitely HAVE NOT FAILED.  :grouphug:

 

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that anyone who talks openly about how to combat racism is secretly a racist?   :confused1:

No. I believe that constantly discussing racism, sensitivity training for 5 year olds, anti-racist messages on commercials, etc. enforce the idea of racism. Telling a white child that a black child is just like them is stupid when children already think that way. You're just causing them to question it. I'm not talking about when racism is in your face. Ignorance needs to be challenged, but I believe that many of things we do to combat racism breed ignorance.

[Caroline]

Which states do you think have the best outcomes due to the least discourse? Where are you getting this information?

 

It means what it says. Racial issues are not uniformly bad across the union, precisely because each state has different policies, demographics, history, and management. It isn't even necessarily straight numbers of individuals that indicate whether ethnicity is a major community issue or not. There are reasons why. And I wish more investigation was put into those reasons, than just trying more of the same and getting nowhere.

 

I was getting things off my chest that have been bothering me. I'm not arguing details with you.

[Guest]

I know racism exists and is still a huge problem, but I wonder how many times people think they are the victim of prejudice when really the other person is just rude or unsociable or flustered or any number of reasons that does not have to do with race?

 

. (i have not read replies, so as to answer unfiltered...)

 

I think your examples are good ones. I do think that being white and middle-class in America means you will interpret many experiences as "Wow. What douchbags they are," rather than assuming the poor treatment is due to your race, ethnic group, cultural markers, etc.

 

Having said that, there are numerous fascinating, if extremely sad, studies that demonstrate that caucasian is prefered in America. One recent study was set up on Ebay, ostensibly selling baseball cards. The baseball cards were pictured being held by a black hand, or the identical card held by a white hand. People offered to buy the card held by a white hand, but did not offer on the card held by a black hand. Now, I think it is probably uncommon for a person to consciously think or say, "I am not buying a card a black person is selling!" But subconciously, perhaps, the buyer thinks there is something more appealing about the one card (white seller) than the other (black seller).

 

IOW, while I do think there are probably instances in which a person interprets rude behavior as bigotry, when in fact, the person was just an equal-opportunity A$$h@le, it doesn't negate the fact that prejudice and preference for whiteness is deeply ingrained in American society.

[Blessed Mommy]

This is an aside...

 

My husband, who is a white cop, pulled over a black man in his twenties for speeding.  My husband walked up to the man's car, and before he could even say anything, the man he pulled over accused my husband of being racist and racial profiling (This occurred during the midnight shift, so it was dark).  My husband responded with something like, "The only reason you're accusing me of that is because I'm white." 

 

The man was immediately taken aback.  After a few seconds of thought, he responded to my husband with something like, "You know, you're right.  I never thought of that.  Sorry, man."

 

My husband then proceeded to explain to the man why he was actually pulled over, and the guy ended up admitting to speeding.  My husband let him go with a warning.

 

This is an example of what my husband experiences almost everyday on his job.  He works with a couple of cops who are black.  They have never been accused of being racist or of racial profiling. 

 

Racism goes both ways.  Change starts with us, in our homes, as we raise our children.

[Guest]

When I was younger, I probably would have assumed it was my hair or old coat or shoes that people didn't like. (Now, I am too old to care what their malfunction is.)

I agree with you, but I also know that people with visible differences will wonder if they're being marginalized, sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly. I am careful to extend a welcoming smile or other gesture so there is no doubt (hopefully). Normally I am an introverted person who does not like talking to strangers, but I don't want my normal "cold" demeanor to hurt anyone.

Absolutely true. i was so embarrassed about my old thrift store clothes, but now I realize how much power I gave to my circumstances. There is an element at play where you see what you look for. What you focus on expands.

[creekland]

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but are you saying that anyone who talks openly about how to combat racism is secretly a racist?   :confused1:

 

I didn't take it that way.  I took it to mean that if we point out that our kids should be nice to that little _____ boy, then we're pointing out the difference in race - a difference the youngster likely didn't even think much about before, but is thinking about now.

 

Kids can ask questions, of course, and we ought to respond to those as well as any statements we hear that aren't true with factual info (rather than punishment to silence), but parents don't need to teach with words as much as just to model.

 

Here is the bottom line........do you respect and treat people the same regardless of their ethnicity?  When you walk on an airplane and see a black pilot, do you have the exact same thoughts as walking on that same airplane and seeing a while pilot?  When a black doctor comes in to perform your heart surgery, do you have the exact same thoughts as when a white doctor walks in to perform your heart surgery?

 

Unless you are describing someone for a specific purpose, you shouldn't even mention race.  

 

 

Exactly!

 

I had to find a couple of physicians in the past few months.  I looked online at their qualifications and reviews and picked one.  Hubby later looked at the full practice and told me MIL wouldn't approve (as if I care, but he was pointing it out).  Why?  Well, there were two foreigners and one black doctor.  I hadn't even noticed - nor did I care.  He (with his ingrained upbringing) pointed it out, but then definitely agreed with me that it didn't matter (it wouldn't have changed my mind if it had mattered to him for that reason).

 

The second I picked due to recommendations from school - also not caring about race.

 

So I ended up with one who is black and the other who is white.  So what?  I see no need to include race in the discussion when anyone asks me about either.

 

That's what I want my kids to be like.

 

People are people.  Period.  We didn't teach about actual racism until much later - though we had to do it some to prepare my guys for what they would hear when visiting MILs house.  Due to her not liking me or the guys much in the early days, we also didn't visit often.  The way she was didn't encourage them to put much faith in her views either.  ;)

[Guest]

Which states do you think have the best outcomes due to the least discourse? Where are you getting this information?

 

 

I don't think it is necessary to ask Arctic Mom so aggressively. Racial tensions are not equally intense over the entire nation. Many areas of the deep south have much more incendiary racial tension. The history of slavery and then unequal treatment is obviously far more intense than in some northern states or states in which the ethnic mix is not predominantly white.

 

Black/White racial tension existing in the south is deeply entrenched in part because of the manner in which blacks came to be on these shores. Other racial and ethnic groups largely arrived on these shores of their own volition, which is not to say that the terms of those groups abiding here has been above-board, but even so, I think I am correct that blacks are the only racial group that has been bought and sold in this country, in open auctions, as "chattel," described a "breeding males," and "fertile females," sold with no regard to notions of humanity, let alone family. I think I am correct that only blacks have this despicable of a history in this country, not to say all other groups have not suffered from hate.

[Mrs Mungo]

Personal incidents of racism might work two ways, but institutional racism really only works one way. If you won't recognize there is a difference, then why would you feel a need to fight for the oppressed against an unjust system?

[SKL]

 

No. I believe that constantly discussing racism, sensitivity training for 5 year olds, anti-racist messages on commercials, etc. enforce the idea of racism. Telling a white child that a black child is just like them is stupid when children already think that way. You're just causing them to question it. I'm not talking about when racism is in your face. Ignorance needs to be challenged, but I believe that many of things we do to combat racism breed ignorance.

 

I do believe we are not doing it right in the schools with young kids (and anyone who tries to copy or get a head start on what they do in schools).  People seem to forget that little kids think adults are pretty much always right, unless they are wearing a cartoonish jailsuit or something.  It's probably instinct for them to look up to adults.  So telling children that not long ago all the people in charge, teachers, parents, police, clergy, bosses, bus drivers, yes even presidents believed in the inferiority and immorality of people of color is going to do what?  When my kids did the MLK lesson in KG, they came home saying "at least my skin isn't as dark as M__'s (their AA classmate whom one of my kids had recently said she was going to marry, but no longer).  This was all the more concerning to me because my kids' skin is brown.  Up until that day, their skin was just different.  After that day, their skin was inferior.  :/  I had to do a lot of work but now I think/hope they again value people without regard to skin color.

 

I also think the standard MLK day lesson is outdated.  In most of the USA, kids (and adults) are not segregated.  We have black people at all levels including president.  We don't need to teach white kids that it's OK to drink from the same fountain or swim in the same pool as AA children.  It would never occur to them to think otherwise.  There are other messages that would be more productive.

[Slache]

Not discussing racism is a luxury that only some families have.

 

Guess what ? Some families have to discuss it, explain it and help children challenge or cope with it, because that is their lived reality.

 

My daughter was 8 when she started asking me questions about why non-white models almost never appeared on the cover of her favourite magazine. You bet we talked about the reasons why. You bet I helped her write the letter to the editor she decided was an appropriate response.

 

She was 12 when she came home and talked about realising the playground pecking order. Blonde and blue-eyed first. How she was 'lucky' because mixed race kids get to be 'exotic' so they don't have to be at the bottom of the pecking order. They can be the 'pets' of the Anglo queens, unlike the Asian, black and the Muslim girls.

 

And dd is lucky! She's mixed! She can use my name, my family, my white privilege to 'pass'. She's lucky because she's not indigenous - meaning people don't assume she's lazy, stupid, dirty and likely to grow up to be some black man's punching bag.

She gets to be 'exotic'!

 

So dd only gets a glimpse into what it means to lack privilege - a tiny little glimpse of the subtle side of racism. And because she's one smart cookie, she sees, she understands, she can imagine what it is like to be not-her-but-"worse" - you bet we talk about it.

What you quoted was a response to a quote, which was a response to a quote, which was a response to "What can we as white women do?" As a white person I feel that constantly pushing tolerance on those that are tolerant is wrong.

 

Also, I was one of 3 white people at my middle school. I've been the subject of racism on a daily basis. Even on the other side I was always more comfortable with those who ignored my race than those who thought of me as a cool person who also happened to be white.

[SKL]

Having said that, there are numerous fascinating, if extremely sad, studies that demonstrate that caucasian is prefered in America.

 

I would just note that this isn't really an American phenomenon.  It's the case also in places where pretty much all citizens' skin is brown.

 

I don't understand it.  My brown-skinned immigrant friends consider this to be a natural preference, but I don't buy that.  I assume it has its roots in European imperialism, but my, those are old, long-lasting roots.

 

[SKL]

With my girls, I tried to ease them into the concepts by discussing ancient slavery situations (like Pharoah / Egypt vs. Israel), faraway historical situations (like the various racism references in The King and I (the musical), old Shirley Temple movies, and other stuff that doesn't hit too close to home.  We are now watching the Kung Fu series, in which racism / discrimination comes up frequently but is still not right in our backyard.  I don't know when they will be fully equipped to handle direct in-their-face racism.

 

We live a pretty integrated life at all levels, but that isn't necessarily enough to prevent kids from getting ignorant ideas.

[Ausmumof3]

Yes, that definitely wasn't taken into account when I made that comment. I live in a diverse area with multicultural friends. I'm sorry for your situation, but you definitely HAVE NOT FAILED. :grouphug:

 

No. I believe that constantly discussing racism, sensitivity training for 5 year olds, anti-racist messages on commercials, etc. enforce the idea of racism. Telling a white child that a black child is just like them is stupid when children already think that way. You're just causing them to question it. I'm not talking about when racism is in your face. Ignorance needs to be challenged, but I believe that many of things we do to combat racism breed ignorance.

I used to think this till my three year old told me he didn't like a child because he looked funny. He was Asian. This wasn't a learned response, it was his natural reaction. Sometimes you have to actually proactively teach them.

[TianXiaXueXiao]

SO WHAT... IT EXISTS. ALL I GET IS DEPRESSED BECUASE IT IS OBVIOUS THAT NEITHER SIDE UNDERSTANDS THE OTHER. SO WE ARE DOOMED. THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ALL SAYING. I DONT GET YOU. yOU DONT GET ME.. I GIVE UP. WHY BOTHER.

 

Dear Seekinghim45,

 

I'm not entirely white. I'm mixed and 3/4 non-white. I'm mostly Asian and Native American. I look mysterious to most people because they can't place me. The first question people ask me when they meet me is either "what are you?" Or "where are you from?" Most people assume I'm not from the US even though I was born and raised here. I have received my unfair share of rude and racist treatment. I get followed around in stores and doctors think I just want drugs when I go in with chronic pain. I've been told many times to go back to where I came from by bigots. When my first daughter was born (unplanned c-section), the anesthesiologist did something wrong and as soon as he inserted the needle in my spine,I had a pounding headache and cried out. He said, "What are you crying for? In Indonesia or wherever you come from, they don't even have this kind of healthcare. You should be grateful." I experience racism pretty regularly, but not to the same degree as many others. Racism is real and it affects us all. You cannot change the fact that racism exists and will always exist. You cannot stop each and every person from exercising their prejudicial views. Just because you are a white woman does not mean you are endowed with the special ability to magically erase racial prejudice. This is why I hate the buzz word du jour, "white privilege." Many white people think they are more evolved or empathic to what non whites experience because they are aware of the ease with which they move through life. Being treated like a normal human being is not a privilege. Just because white people don't experience racial profiling and on average have better experiences with law enforcement when they break laws (my sister is serving a life sentence for a felony that most whites serve 15 to 20 years for, but she still broke the law and I'd rather she were alive in prison than dead on the streets) does not equate to privileged status. If it did then what we are saying is no one should be treated as normal and human because we've decided that being treated as humans is a freaking privilege.

 

You want to know what you can do? You can be good to people around you. You can speak up when you see others mistreating others regardless of race. You can refrain from all this meaningless talk about white privilege and racism and move forward with life, teaching your children about the dangers of prejudice and hate, and showing them what it is to make peace wherever and whenever you encounter conflict. Take heart. We are all only human.

[Rosie_0801]

If only it were as gray as being ignored. Trust me when I say you learn the subtle differences between a rude or unsociable person and a person who, for instance, thinks my nephew is a problem to be watched until they see me hand him a juice box or push him on the swings. It's written in a series of very subtle social cues.

 

:(

 

You'd probably get the same reaction out of me, but it stems from my years as a brownie leader. Inside my brain wouldn't be "white responsible person" it'd be "oh, good, someone is supervising them so I don't have to feel like a pseudo-guardian."

[Pronghorn]

I find it interesting that people think kids don't notice race. My daughter was noticing by the age of four. People with Asian blood were "people with hair like me." And that included a half Asian girl who I wouldn't have recognized as Asian without knowing who her father was. I think kids notice race but lack the words to express what they see. I taught my daughter about race, often explaining it as a reflection of where people's ancestors came from. My daughter herself is an immigrant from China. Perhaps with a non-immigrant child I could have avoided the topic. But why? Even though I taught her about race she continued to value people of all colors.

[Guest]

She's not saying some states have less tension, She's saying some states have less tension because they don't talk about racism.

I didn't interpret it that way. Maybe she was saying that; I don't know. perhaps Arctic Mom will clarify.

 

I took it to mean that in some states, racial tension is not much of a thing. There isn't a lot of heated talk about racism, because there isn't as much background of "blacks are inferior." I think, living in Maryland, I am exposed to a blend of southern culture and northern culture. i did not take her to be saying, "Let's never mention racism in the hopes that it will go away." I took it to mean that in some states, racial tensions stay on simmer in part because "we" keep highlighting our expectations that they are simmering, KWIM?

[Guest]

I find it interesting that people think kids don't notice race. My daughter was noticing by the age of four. People with Asian blood were "people with hair like me." And that included a half Asian girl who I wouldn't have recognized as Asian without knowing who her father was. I think kids notice race but lack the words to express what they see. I taught my daughter about race, often explaining it as a reflection of where people's ancestors came from. My daughter herself is an immigrant from China. Perhaps with a non-immigrant child I could have avoided the topic. But why? Even though I taught her about race she continued to value people of all colors.

I love this. And yes, I do believe kids notice difference and sameness, so it is no surprise that they notice skin color, eye color, eye shape, hair texture and so on. (See the study done on babies who prefer a puppet that prefers graham crackers and hates green beans.) My red-headed friend said her adopted African American son said, "Mommy, why is my skin so tan and not like yours?"

 

But I love that you are explaining this through the lens of ancestral region.

[Murmer]

In my home we talk about race A LOT!  It makes people uncomfortable but its the reality of my children.  They know they are different they know their skin is brown and all the other kids are white.  They knew in Preschool that they were different and the other children knew too.  When people of the majority (white here in the US) look around they see others like themselves and a few who are different and don't really have to talk about race because its not in their face daily.  For my children their race is in their face daily, thankfully not yet racisism.  It is not racist to talk about race it is racist to let race effect a persons bias, stereotypes, and prejudices that come because of skin color.  I think one of the worst things that happened was the idea of colorblindness....its ok to talk about skin color its ok to acknowledge someones differences we all do what is not OK is to assign anything to that label.  Yes my child is black that does not mean that she will be a basketball player, a thug, or from another country.  She is just black (and gorgeous but that may be my bias).  Talk about race to your children talk about differences and how wonderful all differences are, talk about the similarities between everyone.  PS this works for not just race but disabilities, gender, religious differences basically talking about differences and similarities helps bring people together rather than leaving the elephant in the room.

[Guest]

does not equate to privileged status. If it did then what we are saying is no one should be treated as normal and human because we've decided that being treated as humans is a freaking privilege.

Very interesting and thought-provoking.

[Rosie_0801]

Personal incidents of racism might work two ways, but institutional racism really only works one way. If you won't recognize there is a difference, then why would you feel a need to fight for the oppressed against an unjust system?

 

You know, it didn't occur to me until one of these threads this week how different a conversation on interpersonal racism and one on institutional racism could be. There's been some interesting thought experiments going on in my head.

[Guest]

The quote was this:

 

 

 

 

*I* think that what we are seeing today is that states/areas/groups that have ALREADY had these collective conversations are better at race relations. But only to an extent. Vermont seemed pretty open, but the Native people were long gone by the time I was there ykwim? And they'd chosen their side of the slavery issue a long time ago too.

 

Some southern states and some urban areas ime just kept delaying that collective conversation....kept denying the need to think about these things...to suss out ideals and then ACT ON THEM. . And now people are demanding we have the conversation. And people are like WE DON'T WANNA TALK ABOUT THIS and it's not OK.

 

Hmmm. I'm not sure. The way I see it, there was so much extreme racial hatred, overt and legal, quite recently in historical terms in the south, compared with some northern states or other areas which behaved differently from farther back in time, i.e., Quakers in Pennsylvania, who always held that slavery was wrong. It takes a long time to overcome such a bitter past. You pretty much have to wait until a couple of generations die out. I can easily recognize, for example, how my parents hold many racially bigoted views and hold to stereotypes. My oldest sister was less so than my parents, but more so than myself. My younger sister was less and is married to a minority race. I expect my children will be much less still.

 

Watching cartoons from my childhood, it shocks me completely the disgusting racial stereotypes at play. That wasn't so long ago, yet no cartoon would be aired like that now. So progress is made. But it is slow.

 

I think what is hard for we white folk who do care is that it does feel hopeless sometimes. I intentionally refrained from jumping into the Ferguson thread, even though I was mulling around some things I wanted to talk about. But I didn't because that thread was SO hot and I also just did not have time to put into it. It feels so hopeless because my little voice saying I care doesn't amount to much. I turned off the news this morning, because I just can't absorb any more scenes of violence that I can do nothing about. So I do think sometimes, that's where, "Can we just not talk about it?" Feelings come from.

[SKL]

I didn't mean to imply that kids don't notice race.  They notice race, but they don't assume that people with different skin are better or worse because of that, or dirty or clean, or whatever, unless they either 1. have never seen that skin color before and assume it is dirt (this happened to my aunt at 3yo), or 2. have seen their parents act like brown skin is yucky.  Where I live, and I believe in most of the USA, people used to think brown skin was dirty or yucky, but that is not true any more.  People don't feel funny about getting in the same pool etc. with people of different skin colors, as used to be the case.  So why would our kids think it strange?  People are people.  They have different color skin and other features.  In preschool and KG, they hold hands and sit next to each other without regard to skin color.  Different skin / hair / eyes is fascinating.

 

My daughters were once talking about ways in which they are different.  I was expecting to hear shorter, older, faster, even smarter.  But my kids surprised me by pointing out that the soles of Miss E's feet are darker than the soles of Miss A's feet.  I had never noticed that before.  So yes, they observe, but observing is one thing, making judgments is another.

[Pronghorn]

Sometimes kids may naturally think kids who look like them are more desirable. My daughter at the age of four did gravitate toward people with "hair like me."