s/o How do I make Saxon Work?

[Caribbean Queen]

We're using 8/7.  He is demoralized by the size of the book, and the number of problems that have to be done.  He has stopped complaining (mostly) but his daily work has "careless" errors, like somewhere in there he thought 2 x 3 = 5. He skips problems, and puts a question mark as the answer for others.  He will never go back to reread any lessons to figure out answers.  He will not write down his calculations, even when he can't get the correct answers mentally.  He'd rather get it wrong than write the steps down.  He gets distracted while doing mixed practice which makes his 'school day' long.  I have to keep telling him to get back to work.  When I let him skip 12 problems he nagged and whined to skip more, and the ones he did were mostly wrong.  So, it was worse when he skipped problems.

 

Even though I think he should be able to do it independently, I have realised he can't or won't do well that way, so we do the warm-up, lesson, new concept, and lesson practice together.  Is that how you do it?  Do you have your child do mixed practice independently?  Does he correct the problems he gets wrong?  Do you let him skip problems? Does your child do mixed practice in one sitting, or more?  What is your child's motivation to do well in math?  I am not above bribes/rewards/punishments.  The reward of good grades, and free time when he is done is not motivating him. 

[KarenNC]

Are you new to Saxon or have you been doing it for a while?

[Caribbean Queen]

New.

He did Singapore 1A-4B.  We used the textbooks and workbooks, not the Challenging Word Problems or Intensive Practice.  I supplemented with various things to cement the math facts.  Then he did MCP Math F (grade 6).  I let him skip problems.  Now we are using Saxon 8/7.

[Justified]

I was able to cut down on the careless mistakes and taking forever to finish the lesson by breaking math up with other school work. (Rewards of any sort did not work to solve this problem). He does six to eight problems (depending on the ease) and then he switches for 10-15 minutes to simple copywork, a math drill app/game, narration, grammar, etc. I still go over the lesson with him sometimes. He also corrects his mistakes. I would insist though that he look back in previous lessons on his own first when he has forgotten something, but there are some insistences where I think you can make the call on hand holding. For example, it takes my son a few lessons to really become independent on word problems so I think a little hand holding in areas your son is weak in is perfectly fine and needful.

 

There is an absurd idea that children should be independent learners completely, but Adulthood does not support this idea. Adults still benefit all the time from being taught by a teacher. The media changes from a classroom teacher to lectures, books, etc. For certain, I benefit from great teachers everyday. There is however some expectation that one should be able to interact with what they have learned to demonstrate understanding. If understanding is lacking, a teacher is able to identify these weakness and go back over material that is lacking in the child and needed for understanding.

 

Try a few ways of breaking math up. Do four lessons a week instead of five. Do a day of going over weak areas or just making math fun. But no need to worry that your child isn't as independent as some have led you to be as a necessary ability at this stage. :) HTH

[BusyMom5]

We are also new to 8/7, coming from PS.  Before, all of the problems on the page were the same type.  WIth Saxon, the student has to read each problem to figure out what type it is.  Yes, my DD has complained!  I have not let her skip any, but I do help her with anything she does not understand.  Usually I read thru the lesson, explain it on the board, and then let her go.  If it is something we/she does not understand, we look up other alternatives on-line to explain.  If it's something she already knows, we go over it quickly and she gets to work.  I've noticed that depending on attitude it can take 30 minutes, or 3 hours.  It is all dependant on her mood!  I've talked with her later about attitude, and how much longer it takes when she comes in with a bad one vs. a good one.  She also tends to miss a lot (like 5+) if she's in a mood, but only 2-3 if she's not.  Puberty :)

[KarenNC]

Did you use a placement test?

 

Our experience: We used Singapore through 4A then wanted to switch because it was a bad fit. I gave her a placement test, which put her one point shy of 7/6. Looking at both books and realizing the amount of review in Saxon, I assumed it would be okay to just start with 7/6. Things didn't go as well as I'd expected--problem sets took forever, lots of careless mistakes, etc. I called and spike with Art Reed (who is very helpful btw, and doesn't require that you buy anything--he even asked for my phone number and called me back since he has free long distance www.homeschoolwithsaxon.com). The upshot of the conversation was that we went back and tested through 6/5, stopping if she made less than 85 (I think he said 80) on any of the tests and working on the sections she missed. This took a couple of months, then we started back in 7/6 and things were better (not perfect, but much better).

 

Our routine is do the lesson together, go over the practice problems together, then she does the problem set independently. We skip no problems in the problem set, but I did sub xtramath.com for some of the timed tests in 7/6 (we didn't do 8/7, so I don't know how it's set up, we went from 7/6 to 8/7). I check it and have her rework anything she missed (and that means if she didn't include units, if I couldn't read the answer, if only part of a multipart problem was wrong--everything). She has one chance to redo it so that she can take care of careless errors. If she still gets it wrong, I have her walk me through the problem step by step to find out where she went wrong. I don't give any grade for homework. For tests, I also grade very strictly, no partial credit, and we do the same process of reworking missed problems (but no change of grade). If she makes less than an 80, especially if she can't redo them easily and correctly on the first redo chance, we go back and work on the sections related to the problems she missed. 

 

Part of it could be the age. My kid wasn't the only one whose brains seemed to dribble out her ears around that age :)--I've heard lots of folks talk about puberty fog and a rough transition around 6th grade. We went through a lot of struggle with careless errors and other such seemingly simple stuff for a while, but it got better. Even now, at 14 and in 9th grade, my daughter doesn't get all the answers right the first time in a problem set. IMO, they are for practice and finding the holes in understanding is exactly their purpose. I *want* her to make her mistakes there so that we have a chance to fix them. She's done really well with Saxon since then, up until this year. Last year, she did Saxon algebra 1 primarily independently using the free at your own pace program through the Virtual Homeschool Group (www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com). This year, for algebra 2, she wasn't doing as well with it doing it entirely online independently, so we did a reboot in October, to doing it all at home with me, starting all over and things are going better.

 

Good luck!

[mom2att]

My 11-year-old is in Saxon 7/6. I do the lesson with him, including the practice set, then am nearby while he works on completing the problems. Since transferring the info from the text to paper is where we sometimes run into difficulty, I write out some of the problems on the paper for him, having him refer back to the text for the very wordy problems.  I'd say he is semi-independent--he does still ask for assistance quite a bit and I check up on him often. My plan is for him to move into 8/7 next year and hopefully continue with Saxon past that. But there's no way he could handle 8/7 now.

 

8/7 is a huge and daunting text.  I know, because my older son got about 80 lessons in last year before we had to abandon it--he has processing issues and though we had used Saxon successfully from 2nd grade, he really hit a wall at 8/7. I switched him to another program at that point and it has gone well. In hindsight, I think he would have been better served by me slowing down at 7/6 and going through 8/7 at a half-time pace.  In my experience, errors and frustration with Saxon are more common when a student is inappropriately placed.  If you are still in the first half of the book and he is having difficulty, consider adjusting his placement.  The back half of the book is where Saxon texts really amp it up--things will not get easier as you move along.

 

Of course every learner is different. YMMV.

[Ellie]

We're using 8/7.  He is demoralized by the size of the book, and the number of problems that have to be done.  He has stopped complaining (mostly) but his daily work has "careless" errors, like somewhere in there he thought 2 x 3 = 5. He skips problems, and puts a question mark as the answer for others.  He will never go back to reread any lessons to figure out answers.  He will not write down his calculations, even when he can't get the correct answers mentally.  He'd rather get it wrong than write the steps down.  He gets distracted while doing mixed practice which makes his 'school day' long.  I have to keep telling him to get back to work.  When I let him skip 12 problems he nagged and whined to skip more, and the ones he did were mostly wrong.  So, it was worse when he skipped problems.

 

Even though I think he should be able to do it independently, I have realised he can't or won't do well that way, so we do the warm-up, lesson, new concept, and lesson practice together.  Is that how you do it?  Do you have your child do mixed practice independently?  Does he correct the problems he gets wrong?  Do you let him skip problems? Does your child do mixed practice in one sitting, or more?  What is your child's motivation to do well in math?  I am not above bribes/rewards/punishments.  The reward of good grades, and free time when he is done is not motivating him. 

 

Like KarenNC, I wonder if you had him take the placement test. If not, perhaps he is placed too high.

 

How you're "supposed" to do it depends on you. :-) If he is indeed at the correct level, then you do what works for you, and it might be that you'll need to work closely with him for awhile, perhaps having him check in with you after every five problems. Under no circumstances should he be allowed to skip any of the problems. Every single one has a purpose in the teaching and development of concepts; when you allow him to skip, he is missing that, and he needs it.

 

Some people allow their dc to work for a set amount of time, 45 minutes for example, and stop for the day; the next day they pick up where they left off. Yes, a lesson might take more than one day, but often people find that their children are able to complete a lesson in that amount of time when they know they don't have to work longer than that. Strange but true. :-)

[Critterfixer]

Is he still 11? He sounds like he's 11. :laugh: Got two fixing to turn 11, and they would be nowhere near Saxon 8/7.

But when we used 5/4 (changed to CLE to repeat that work this year because I felt they needed to-standardized scores were high, but I felt they needed more practice and boy was I right!) I would assign odds in the morning, evens in the afternoon. That helped. I often found that what took 45 min to over an hour in the morning went by in 30 min or less in the afternoon on their time. 

I stay at hand for nearly everything. Yes, they do their mixed practice in CLE on their own, but I'm right there at the table, working through Key to Algebra for myself, and redirecting attention where I need to, and helping as needed.

[Reefgazer]

Tell him you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

 

When I see DD start to make careless mistakes that are excessive, refuses to show her work, and pulls the question-mark stunt on things she knows but is too lazy to think about, she is required to re-do the lesson properly and with greater care during her free time on Saturday before anything else she would like to do.  Harsh?   Yup, by design.  And I only had to do it once or twice before the nonsense came to a screeching halt. 

 

ETA:  DD has been using Saxon regularly, is properly placed at grade level, is a proven independent worker, and perfectly capable of performing accurately with Saxon.  But you have to know you kid and be sure he is not having real difficulty before implementing harsher measures.

 

We're using 8/7.  He is demoralized by the size of the book, and the number of problems that have to be done.  He has stopped complaining (mostly) but his daily work has "careless" errors, like somewhere in there he thought 2 x 3 = 5. He skips problems, and puts a question mark as the answer for others.  He will never go back to reread any lessons to figure out answers.  He will not write down his calculations, even when he can't get the correct answers mentally.  He'd rather get it wrong than write the steps down.  He gets distracted while doing mixed practice which makes his 'school day' long.  I have to keep telling him to get back to work.  When I let him skip 12 problems he nagged and whined to skip more, and the ones he did were mostly wrong.  So, it was worse when he skipped problems.

 

Even though I think he should be able to do it independently, I have realised he can't or won't do well that way, so we do the warm-up, lesson, new concept, and lesson practice together.  Is that how you do it?  Do you have your child do mixed practice independently?  Does he correct the problems he gets wrong?  Do you let him skip problems? Does your child do mixed practice in one sitting, or more?  What is your child's motivation to do well in math?  I am not above bribes/rewards/punishments.  The reward of good grades, and free time when he is done is not motivating him. 

 

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I agree with the pp who asked if your son took the placement test. My dd is in Saxon 76 currently, and it takes her an hour tops to finish her lesson and exercises and we do the same thing you do. I sit with her for the warm up, lesson, new concept and lesson practice. Does 87 have more exercises than the earlier levels? If I were in your shoes, I would do the entire lesson from beginning to end with him. I would allow him to work out the problems on his own, and I would be watching to catch where he is getting hung up, that should prevent those pesky question marks from appearing as answers. I am an annoying math teacher for my daughter and she has become much more independent as a result! :lol:

[Chris in VA]

So is your child a 5th grader (already turned a year older--) or a 6th grader (turning 12 before or in June)? I ask because, even though I know homeschooling meets a child at the level they are, not the grade they are, it could be that he's placed way high.

I would ask about the placement test, too.

 

For dd, she did Saxon just one year ahead. Her last year, we did the whole lesson together until the practice set (the main problem set). She'd tackle those for a few minutes, then do the rest of them later in the day--even after dinner. The next day, I let her look over her work before I looked at it--she could usually catch her careless mistakes. Then I'd have a go at it, and we'd talk thru any lingering mistakes. THEN we would start the new lesson.

[Another Lynn]

For my 11 yo dd using Saxon 6/5 we go over the lesson and do the practice together.  Then I set up her notebook for her drawing lines (one down the middle of the page and others across the page spaced appropriately).  I write down all computation type problems to save her time and reduce copy-errors.  As I do this, if I come across a problem that can be solved mentally, I read it to her and ask her the answer and then put a checkmark by that problem in her notebook showing both of us we have already done it.  So, in a matter of minutes I have set her up for a more successful math time (reduced copy errors, and reduced number of possible distractions by reducing her tasks, and reduced number of problems by 5 or so by having her do them orally/mentally).

[Amithy]

I have a 12yr old/7th grader in Saxon 87. We've been doing Saxon math for 4 years. I nearly always do the mental math with her and take the answers orally, read the lesson with her, and stay nearby while she does the practice problems.

 

For the actual problem sets we have done a variety of things over the years. Sometimes I let her skip problems. Sometimes she does all the even numbers one day, all the odd numbers the next. Sometimes I have her do entire lessons, but only half a lesson a day. This year we have primarily done the latter. I feel like we have the freedom to take the math books slow because Saxon has so much review at the beginning of the next book that we typically skip the first 40 lessons of the new book. This reduces the total of lessons we need to complete to get done in one school year.

 

Do you get the sense that you son knows how to do the work but isn't motivated? Or do you think he's struggling with the math itself? Is the struggle more about copying problems down into a notebook? (I don't know how Singapore works, but if he's never had to write his work in a seperate notebook, that can be a challenge all by itself.) Did he fight math homework in previous years?

[Momling]

My 12 year old can do a lot of independent work, but math is not a subject I trust her to complete on her own. Review type topics are no problem independently, but I absolutely sit next to her for complicated problems and complete them in my own notebook, comparing answers after each one. It helps for a few reasons... It keeps her on track, it allows me to be truly aware of the time it takes to complete a problem (I used to assign too many problems, not realizing how long some problems take), it allows me to know exactly the areas she struggles and excels in, and (as a bonus) I have been learning problem-solving techniques that I either forgot or never fully understood.

[Punks in Ontario]

My ds 12 started 87 from SM 6A when he was almost 11.  Skill wise he tested into that level, but he found the extra workload and the variety of questions really tough.  For the first while, I would have him do a timed math test and about 1/2 lesson per day.  Slowly we built up to a full lesson some days.  I still teach the lesson part to him as well as do the mental math with him.  For difficult problems he will wait until I'm free to help.  We've also taken a couple of short breaks to do AOPS.  I really believe that the timed math tests are key to learning the basics to the point of instant recall.  Currently he's doing lesson 94 or so and we've had to slow down again because he has a couple of concepts that he's not very solid with.  We will complete 87 this January in a year and a half.  

 

Ds 10 switched into Saxon 76 from SM5B this fall.  His skills weren't quite as strong as his brothers.  So far he's cruising through (L38).  His lessons are completed in about 1/2 hour.  Part of me wishes I had backed the older guy up to 76.

 

ETA:  With ds 12, we're currently stopping math after 1-1.25 hours regardless of how much is completed as long as he's giving it a serious amount of attention.

[chiguirre]

For my 11 yo dd using Saxon 6/5 we go over the lesson and do the practice together.  Then I set up her notebook for her drawing lines (one down the middle of the page and others across the page spaced appropriately).  I write down all computation type problems to save her time and reduce copy-errors.  As I do this, if I come across a problem that can be solved mentally, I read it to her and ask her the answer and then put a checkmark by that problem in her notebook showing both of us we have already done it.  So, in a matter of minutes I have set her up for a more successful math time (reduced copy errors, and reduced number of possible distractions by reducing her tasks, and reduced number of problems by 5 or so by having her do them orally/mentally).

I use many of these same ideas with Trinqueta, although she's working through VHSG's ayop lessons for a different Saxon book. The computer takes care of the correcting. The answer won't turn green until the units are correct, the answer is in the correct format and you've reworked any careless errors. I do sit with her while she works to keep her on track. She was more independent when she was 10. She's become much more foggy and argumentative this year.

[Caribbean Queen]

In the past day, we've had the worst time ever doing math.

 

Half the problems were left blank, were answered with a question mark, or were wrong.

While doing Mixed Review, he told me he had never seen that kind of problem before.

He tried to tell me "they" should change the laws of math so that his answer would be correct.

It took 2 minutes for him to understand what "Copy the problem in your notebook," meant.

 

Oh, and he gave me The Stink Face.

 

Note To Self:  Work on that bad attitude.

 

I looked at the Saxon placement test, but I don't think I made him do it.  Now, I think I should have put him in a lower grade.  I think the problem is a combination of the wrong placement, puberty brain fog, a defeatest attitude and grouchy resistance. 

 

 

Here is my plan:

Have him work on Saxon Math for 45 minutes, only. We'll finish the book one day.

Help him do all the problems. Hopefully, he will decide he doesn't need so much help, after a while.

Stop slacking on giving him the timed tests.  I won't time him, though.

Continue using the website Xtra Math for extra math practice. He feels successful at that.

 

 

 

 

[kiwik]

I.suppose cutting the binding off and rebindingit as 4 books isn't an option?

[Critterfixer]

I made the mistake of pressing on with Saxon 5/4 with two boys who were not ready for it. They placed in that book. It was clear to me thirty lessons in that they were going to struggle. (That is usually where Saxon ramps up). I should have stopped and gone to CLE or taken them back a grade. I did not.

It isn't worth being miserable a whole year. They learned a lot (I thought-it certainly showed on their standardized tests) but I had to take them back to CLE 4 this year.  So basically, I spent the rest of the year being miserable, and making them miserable, and it plain wasn't worth it, since I had to go back a grade anyway. 

My advice? If you think he needs to go back a year, take him back a year now, and save yourself the angst of finishing a year with a curriculum that is causing headaches.

[kiana]

I agree with Critterfixer. Being overplaced in Saxon is a recipe for a really crappy math year. 

 

Stop immediately and give him the placement test. If he is getting half the problems wrong at this part of the semester, he is probably overplaced and needs to step back a year. 

[FriedClams]

We're Saxon users, and like you we switched in Middle School. I wrote a post on my blog about how we do Saxon, so here is a link: http://friedclamsandsweettea.wordpress.com/2014/01/23/algebra-12-or-how-i-do-middle-school-math/

 

I just want to encourage you that tutoring and teaching are not "helping him do all the problems". You're teaching. Guiding. Mentoring. I would encourage you to try and ask leading questions and not answer anything that he already knows. You might have to lead him a little, then back off as he practices stuff. But, teaching isn't cheating. It's teaching. I get frustrated sometimes on the boards here because there is such a push to be "independent" that the whole "homeschooling is awesome because my kids have a one on one tutor!" gets lost. 

 

The other thing I did with my son was to separate the copying and the math. We did Horizons so switching to Saxon was hard from the copywork side of things. We moved to having him copy the work, then I checked it. When it was copied correctly he did the math. It seemed to speed up the whole overall process and really mentally helped him to divide up the work. After a bunch of lessons he had the swing of it and just went straight to copy / math / copy / math. 

 

I will say that as much as my kids love white boards, I don't think it helps them long term. I might let them do one lesson a week on them. It seems the discipline I want in copying, neatness, etc. gets lost the day after a whiteboard day. Might just be my kids. I am a STICKLER for showing work, copying neatly, circling answers, etc. so I'm moving from the white boards I mentioned in the post. 

 

I hope this helps a little. I am actually getting behind in my math lesson so I have to run. I'm to the point now that i really like to do the math with the kids... unless they crush me on it!!

 

[KarenNC]

In the past day, we've had the worst time ever doing math.

 

Half the problems were left blank, were answered with a question mark, or were wrong.

While doing Mixed Review, he told me he had never seen that kind of problem before.

He tried to tell me "they" should change the laws of math so that his answer would be correct.

It took 2 minutes for him to understand what "Copy the problem in your notebook," meant.

 

Oh, and he gave me The Stink Face.

 

Note To Self:  Work on that bad attitude.

 

I looked at the Saxon placement test, but I don't think I made him do it.  Now, I think I should have put him in a lower grade.  I think the problem is a combination of the wrong placement, puberty brain fog, a defeatest attitude and grouchy resistance. 

 

 

Here is my plan:

Have him work on Saxon Math for 45 minutes, only. We'll finish the book one day.

Help him do all the problems. Hopefully, he will decide he doesn't need so much help, after a while.

Stop slacking on giving him the timed tests.  I won't time him, though.

Continue using the website Xtra Math for extra math practice. He feels successful at that.

 

If the problem is wrong placement, going slowly through this level from this point may not solve the issue. He is likely missing some foundational skills taught in the previous level, which is not uncommon when switching programs, since all of them have a slightly different scope and sequence. Even though Saxon reviews, it doesn't necessarily go as indepth in the reviews as it did in the original teaching section. 

 

Honestly, if it were me, I would stop and apologize. I would explain that because he was obviously missing some background information from having switched math programs, I had made a mistake and given him the wrong book, so we were going to drop back and test through the previous level to fix the problem. Then I'd get 7/6 and give him the first test. All questions must be totally right to get points---no missing units, no partial credit, no question marks, if one part of a multi-part problem is wrong, it's all wrong, no partial credit for copying it incorrectly, etc. I would require him to rework any problems missed to see if he made a careless error or didn't understand the process. For a careless error (meaning he got it correct on the redo without help), I wouldn't worry about it. If he had to have help to fix any problem, we would go back and do the section again together, including the practice problems and maybe the questions in the problem sets leading up to the test that were associated with the section (the problem should show which section it relates to). IIRC, some of the books have A and B test forms, so you could give a retest after working on any problem sets. If he gets less than 80 on two tests in a row, start the book full bore from the point covered by the last test. This will likely take at least a couple of months, even if he just tests straight through. After all that is completed, then I'd go on back to 8/7. I would also have him do the tests and work on graph paper to help keep things neat.

 

If getting a copy of 7/6 is not an option immediately, you might consider using the free online version at http://www.virtualhomeschoolgroup.com/course/category.php?id=98  You are supposed to have the book, but all the material is online, so could work until you can get a copy.

 

If you are not interested in or able to go back to 7/6, I would at minimum totally stop, give him the placement test (see the same link in previous paragraph), see which types of problems he misses below 8/7, and look at online resources like Khan Academy or the Key to.... workbooks to address the specific skills. Then I would restart 8/7 from the beginning (which is what we've done with algebra 2 and it's helping tremendously).

 

For the question marks, I would explain that any unanswered question means a total redoing of the section associated with that question, including the practice and problem set in addition to his regular math assignment for the day. Anything not completed by Friday gets done on the weekend. It's likely going to be a long haul, unfortunately, to get him to take you seriously, but it got better for us. One thing that helped for us was having to take incomplete math work to the park during our homeschool group park day and having to sit at a picnic table near the adults to complete it before joining the other kids.

 

Definitely continue with xtramath until he can meet their criteria. My daughter didn't have her math facts down in 6th grade and it was a big stumbling block. Xtramath was a lifesaver. I used them instead of timed drill for fact practice. Once those are down, you can go back to the timed test for things other than basic facts (measures, fractions, etc). 

[kiana]

Karen has some really excellent suggestions and I would take them seriously. 

[Pen]

We moved over from AoPS to Saxon bec. AoPS did not have enough practice for my ds. But he is using the AoPS approach of doing problems first to learn the concepts (I forgot what the term is for that--discovery?), rather than reading how to do them first. If he has trouble he asks me rather than reading, usually, though sometimes I direct him to read something or to the glossary. We go over the answers together, usually. If it looks like he understood and made a "silly" mistake I am letting it go (except on the tests). If it looks like he did not understand something, then I go over it with him. He does 3 pages per day, 7 days per week (though he can do more and have days off if he wants). 

 

I agree though that if you have put your ds in too high a level, you need to go back, not just do less.

[Seasider]

We alternate Saxon with Life of Fred. Fred is the carrot that gets my student through the Saxon!

 

Are you utilizing the little numbers in parenthesis under each question/problem number? This tells you which lessons the concept being exercised comes from. When he gets problems wrong, take the time to go back and review the associated lessons. The review sections (especially as the levels increase) start to present problems that incorporate more than one concept or procedure. These are great problems! But the students really need a firm grasp on the individual processes. Also, some may disagree, but I am a drill kind of gal. Kids don't love memorizing math facts (and yes, understanding how addition, subtraction, multiplication and division actually work is vital), but the kids who have their facts down cold are free to move through more conceptual ideas without having to stop and finger or skip count. There are tons of games that will give your students practice with handling facts and basic computations that are also fun.

[OneStepAtATime]

Every system has a bit different scope and sequence.  As others have said, if he is struggling and frustrated and putting question marks on things, he is probably missing critical pieces.  Kids frequently develop the bad attitude not because they are lazy or just have an attitude in general.  They frequently develop the bad attitude because they are missing critical basic pieces that just seem simple to an adult.  Pieces that we assume they had long ago, but are actually still not solid.  It makes math so hard and confusing.  Give him the placement test.  See where the gaps are.  Go back and solidify the foundation instead of pushing forward.  You will be building his math skills on a house of cards and possibly completely demoralizing him and making him hate math if you keep pushing forward when he isn't ready.

 

But if he has always struggled with math, you might want to take a month or so to just review really foundational skills, like basic subitization.  Work with manipulatives to break it down and build it up into a cohesive whole again.  And do lots of math related activities that help him see the purpose of math.

 

Good luck and best wishes....

[MiMi 4under3]

DD13 is doing Saxon 8/7 now, and we make it work by taking lots of breaks...

 

I sit with her for almost the entire lesson - which sometimes takes an hour and a half!

 

I scribe the mental math, otherwise she's tempted to use her pencil. We also do the problem solving together, otherwise she just says "I don't know!" so I give her little clues or guide her in the right direction. We read the lesson together, and sometimes I read it aloud while having her follow along while pointing to the words with a pencil. We do ALL of the examples. At this point she may take a break for 2-3 minutes, but usually she takes a break after the Lesson Practice.

 

Then, depending on her mood, she brakes after every 10 problems in the Mixed Practice, or she'll take a longer break after 15. And I sit with her for all 30 problems - she likes the company - and I catch her arithmetic mistakes.

 

I realize this is a TON of hand holding, but Saxon works for her. It's just too overwhelming if she does it all on her own.

 

 

[Seasider]

DD13 is doing Saxon 8/7 now, and we make it work by taking lots of breaks...

 

I sit with her for almost the entire lesson - which sometimes takes an hour and a half!

 

I scribe the mental math, otherwise she's tempted to use her pencil. We also do the problem solving together, otherwise she just says "I don't know!" so I give her little clues or guide her in the right direction. We read the lesson together, and sometimes I read it aloud while having her follow along while pointing to the words with a pencil. We do ALL of the examples. At this point she may take a break for 2-3 minutes, but usually she takes a break after the Lesson Practice.

 

Then, depending on her mood, she brakes after every 10 problems in the Mixed Practice, or she'll take a longer break after 15. And I sit with her for all 30 problems - she likes the company - and I catch her arithmetic mistakes.

 

I realize this is a TON of hand holding, but Saxon works for her. It's just too overwhelming if she does it all on her own.

Smiling at the memories here. It was at this stage with my oldest that I took up knitting. 😄

[Caribbean Queen]

One of my dumplings spilled water on my keyboard.  Now that it's replaced I can post an update.

 

Since I last posted, we've done Xtra Math, and only one Saxon lesson.. 

 

That one lesson was well done.  My son didn't act clueless or have a stinky attitude.  I did the math alongside him.  That made all the difference. 

 

We're having a hard time with prime factorization, so I put on a Khan Academy video for that.  My son said it was easier to understand than the lesson in his Saxon book.

 

As we go through the book, if it gets too hard for him to do along side me, I'll put 8/7 aside, and get him something easier.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

[SparklyUnicorn]

We've only used Algebra 1 and now are doing Algebra 2 (prior we used SM).  I just don't give my son all the problems.  I know that's what Saxon says to do, but I don't find it necessary.  I don't assign more than half.  If he really bombs out that day I give him the other half the next day and then move on from there.  If it were necessary for my son to do all the problems, meaning he really needed the practice on all of it, I'd find a way to still not do so many in one sitting.  It's just too much I think. 

[Caribbean Queen]

We did the one lesson over two days.  I'm thinking we'll do Saxon for 45 minutes every 'school day' regardless of whether we finish a lesson or not.  We wont do it all in one block of time.

[VeteranMom]

I have 2 doing Saxon 8/7.  This is our 5th school year using Saxon.  We watch the Art Reed DVD for the lesson and he goes through some sample problems.  After that, they do the lesson.  I keep the answer key close by when they are doing the lesson.  I have them complete 5 problems at a time and then, we go over the answers.  If they are confused, we work through the problem.  If the problems were answered successfully, they move onto 5 more problems and so on until the lesson is finished.  45 minutes/day of math isn't unheard of around here and I don't think it's unreasonable.      

[happypamama]

Ah yes. Btdt with Saxon. Very frustrating to have the child get several wrong, only to find that they were almost entirely careless errors.

 

I posted about that a few months ago, and people suggested having my student do only part of the problems, and having her check them herself. So that's what we have been doing. She does 20 problems a day, and if she gets three or fewer wrong (ones she doesn't understand don't count; she doesn't check her work until she's gotten help with anything confusing), she doesn't have to do the other ten in the set. More than three wrong, she does the other ten. The first couple of days, she was annoyed at having to do all 30, but then, miraculously, the errors started dropping, and she hasn't done all 30 in several weeks.

 

She does 1-20 of a lesson, 6-25 of the next lesson, 11-30 next, then 1-5 and 16-30, then 1-10 and 21-30, then 1-15 and 26-30, and then back to the beginning. (She skips ten consecutively, but the ten she advances five each day.). This gives her a good variety without me needing to pick out ones for her to do.