Trainwrecks among formerly homeschooled students

[dawn of ns]

But she homeschooled from the start, considered herself an unschooler and laughed at the fact her kids did what they wanted all day while she laid on the couch watching tv.

 

I used to be a complete unschooler. Now I suppose I'm more of a delayed schooler since my daughter started formal work at 8 (my son, 6, still unschools)

 

What gets me is that unschooling as I practised it meant work and involvment. So I didn't do spelling or times table drills. I made sure we had lots of resources, strewed interesting things, took walks, read to them a lot, etc....Unschooling isn't neglect and there's a lot of literature online that supports that.

 

It just irks me to hear of parents who are using it to justify their uninvolvement ro disinterest in raising their kids.

[mommaduck]

What is his thinking behind that? That higher education is evil? I know of families that only feel 8th or so is enough, but then they move to technical training.

 

His thinking is that they don't need it. He's not the brightest crayon in the box, but he's charismatic in character, and is doing "just fine" in the line of work he's in. He doesn't want his children being any smarter than he is (my opinion, based on knowing him since we were kids). They claim that their children becoming educated will cause them spiritual harm (but then, I don't buy that when they teach their children that it's okay to lie and cheat). There are so many inconsistencies that you can't take anything they say to heart.

[angela in ohio]

I have sometimes wondered if I have a myopic view of homeschooling, based upon my experiences with the normally good to sometimes exceptional homeschoolers I've met. Are we on these forums in the minority?

 

Yes.

[iquilt]

I get to hear a lot about "that kid in german class" from my friend, a ps teacher who had to teach this kid, at age 16, how to write down his assignments because his mom had always taken care of the details for him. She tells me about him almost weekly :)

[HRAAB]

If you're speaking academics - prepared for college or post-high school education, yes. I know several. From what I've seen lacking, I do believe had they been in school they would have been better prepared academically.

 

If you're speaking emotionally or morally, yes I know some of those, too. However, I don't think it would have been any different had they been in school in that case.

 

Janet

[Plucky]

I strongly disagree. I know a lot of homeschoolers very few are WTMers and they are not trainwrecks. I think the trainwrecks are the minority.

[angela in ohio]

I've seen trainwrecks of all sorts around here: mom works full time and young dc are home alone all day; mom isn't educated and can't teach dc even basic skills; mom babies sons and they are socially maladjusted; mom is an alcoholic (two families, actually; ) family has no money for books or supplies and doesn't bother to try to find free resources; mom couldn't control kids when she tried to do school so she gave up; etc, etc...

[dirty ethel rackham]

You see, I wouldn't consider that a train wreck ... maybe a slight skirmish. My children have been behind in writing if you ask a ps teacher what they should be doing. However, based upon standardized tests, they are doing great. We just don't do a lot of writing until 6th grade because it just results in frustration, not learning.

 

If I had put my child into 2nd grade last year, she would have been behind. She was not reading at grade level yet, nor were her math skills where we wanted them to be. We didn't panic. We didn't hit things hard. We just kept on keeping on. She blossomed last spring. She went from reading at a 1st grade level to a 4th-5th grade level in about 3 months. Some would have said this was a train wreck. I say it was the beauty of homeschooling - working at her pace.

 

I don't know any train wrecks. I know some families who have different goals and talents than ours, but their kids are developing great, getting into colleges, getting scholarships, becoming productive citizens.

[LisaKinVA]

I have known some trainwrecks -- boys and girls -- well meaning families, "good kids" -- but unprepared for life. They are definitely the minority of the families I've met, but there have been some overriding similarities in their approach(es) to homeschooling.

 

Some let the children teach themselves, or ignored schooling completely.

Others, focused so much on the "moral training" they neglected other work completely. Girls didn't need to learn too much (beyond Algebra I), because they would be called to be wives and mothers... boys unprepared for a career, working odd jobs until they truly knew God's calling (the two I knew are still aimless adults)

 

Another whose passion was driven out of him by an overbearing mother, and a father who didn't stand up to her -- he's now 32 living at home and mom still cleans up after him. He still acts like he's 15 (except he comes and goes as he pleases.)

 

The last one, although homeschooled from 2nd grade through highschool, the problems are not the fault of the homeschooling, it has to more with the parenting aspects (he did very well on his SAT's 1300's). To outsiders, he would be considered a homeschool trainwreck...

 

I worry constantly about my children. Am I pushing too hard? Am I not pushing enough? Because of this, I do use what is going on at top-notch schools as a guide line. It helps keep me honest. It helps keep me on track. So far, so good... but we've still got a looong way to go!

[dirty ethel rackham]

How do you know his math was neglected? Perhaps that is a weak subject for him. How many on this board never got beyond algebra? We have a boy in our hs group who is a sr. this year. He didn't read until he was 10. His mother did not neglect his education in the meantime. He struggles with algebra and is working with a tutor. However, this young man is an exemplary citizen - Eagle scout, has a paying job playing organ for a local church, volunteer work, taking community college classes in high school. He will likely get a full college scholarship for music (St. Olaf, Yale, Juliard). In the early years, many would have considered him a train wreck, but I have had the pleasure to see this boy grow and develop into a fine young man.

[jamnkats]

I suppose there are those who would consider my kids trainwrecks but I've never met actual trainwrecks.

 

My boys (14 and 12) are just starting their first dip into formal math. They have an understanding of addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, percentages, fractions, decimals and even algebra simply from living life. They are having absolutely NO trouble with the math (TT7) thus far, however, and every new concept they approach is immediately absorbed and makes perfect sense to them. That tells me that they are ready to absorb this stuff. The 14yo might have been ready at 12 but I really don't think he was ready maturity wise. He really has to believe in the process and is very resistant to formal academics.

 

Both boys were writing letters and numbers backwards a couple weeks ago but expressed interest in cursive and are now copying Shakespeare sonnets and printing beautifully. So far, they have dipped into cursive but aren't interested enough to pursue it. The 6yo LOVES cursive however, and is always asking for another worksheet to work on.

 

We have always had a very rich literate life and while the girls (8 and 6) aren't yet reading I'm not worried in the least. But I'm sure there are those who would consider them trainwrecks for that.

 

I have always read a LOT to the kids; we have Sonlight literature and I read a lot from the Gutenberg project literature; we have always read a minimum of 2 hours a day to the kids. They are always drawing, creating with clay, creating homes and cities with cardboard and other "trash" materials and this year we're going to do painting and pastel work.

 

So, since my kids aren't right at school level, (althought the 14yo reads at a college-level and the 12yo reads at a highschool level) I'm sure many would consider them trainwrecks but I'm confident that they'll end up where they should be in their own time.

[Eleni]

These stories sound more like they are issues from the kids having been raised in the families they were raised in more than anything. These kids could very well have gone off to PS or billion $$ a year private school and had the same issues.

 

My husband was a "trainwreck". Heavy drug addiction in high school, almost dropping out, barely graduating, dressed funny, long hair, etc.

 

And he never went to college.

 

 

Now, he is a very successful Sales Exec. and renowned throughout his company for his business skills, public speaking, and writing skills.

 

I really truly do not think that ones schooling 100% makes them the adult they turn out to be. Sure, it can play a role, but there is also a point where one has to say that "Ok, it wasnt all that great, but Im an adult now and can change that"

[swellmomma]

I used to be a complete unschooler. Now I suppose I'm more of a delayed schooler since my daughter started formal work at 8 (my son, 6, still unschools)

 

What gets me is that unschooling as I practised it meant work and involvment. So I didn't do spelling or times table drills. I made sure we had lots of resources, strewed interesting things, took walks, read to them a lot, etc....Unschooling isn't neglect and there's a lot of literature online that supports that.

 

It just irks me to hear of parents who are using it to justify their uninvolvement ro disinterest in raising their kids.

 

 

I think that is where the problem lies. Those that truely believe in unschooling know how hard ti really is, much harder than following a curric imo, trying to keep on topof the kids interests, strewing etc. I know one homeschooling mom that was my idol when it came to this. When her kids went back to ps (their choice) they were far ahead of their peers and she had unschooled from the start. The problem is those that are purely too lazy to bother schooling their kids and figure the title of 'unschooler' gives them an easy out of the responsibility. I think that is why so many of those that we consider trainwrecks are from families that practiced unschooling. NOt because unschooling is wrong, but because it becomes a cop out of being an involved parent.

[jamnkats]

We have a boy in our hs group who is a sr. this year. He didn't read until he was 10. His mother did not neglect his education in the meantime.

 

My 12yo started reading a 10 - due to Runescape. It just never interested him before. Right now he is in his room reading "The Land I Lost" (about Vietnam) because he found it "interesting".

 

My 14yo started reading at 7 - I remember when he started he could read "neighbor" but stumbled at "and". :) Within 6 months he was reading Harry Potter.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I think that is where the problem lies. Those that truely believe in unschooling know how hard ti really is, much harder than following a curric imo, trying to keep on topof the kids interests, strewing etc. I know one homeschooling mom that was my idol when it came to this. When her kids went back to ps (their choice) they were far ahead of their peers and she had unschooled from the start. The problem is those that are purely too lazy to bother schooling their kids and figure the title of 'unschooler' gives them an easy out of the responsibility. I think that is why so many of those that we consider trainwrecks are from families that practiced unschooling. NOt because unschooling is wrong, but because it becomes a cop out of being an involved parent.

 

 

There is, IMO, a enormous difference between non-schooling and un-schooling. One should not mix up the two.

[Kidlit]

I just wanted to weigh in here as a very new, uninitiated homeschooler. My children are really too young to even go to school, but we do "learning time" here at home.

 

 

As an adjunct cc instructor, I occasionally have homeschooled students who usually somewhat disappoint me in their writing abilities. However, I should qualify this by saying that I am disappointed in the writing abilities of almost all of my ps-ed students, too. There doesn't seem to be a huge difference. My greatest shock was one semester when I taught developmental (remedial) English and had a girl as a student who had graduated as salutatorian of her public high school class the previous spring. Remedial English!:ack2:

 

When I was a fresh high school graduate (ps), I worked for five years at a public library while I got my bachelor's degree. We had several homeschooling families who were regular patrons. I was always favorably impressed by the children in these families. They seemed to genuinely enjoy reading and were extremely well behaved.

 

I agree with the person who said that most of the time, public school teachers never meet the hs successes. They usually only meet the trainwrecks.

[lovemyboys]

I've seen trainwrecks of all sorts around here...

 

her own teens and their friends with alcohol and pot that she let them use at home. She was arrested and sent to jail.

 

Her rationale was that at least she knew where the kids were, who with, and the quality of the stuff they were using. What a thrill when they identified her as a homeschooling mom.

 

A dear friend of mine met a young mom at a park day that really, really concerned her for a number of reasons. But overall, the parents I've met may be all over the spectrum of skills and challenges and attitudes, but they've been really committed to their kids.

[BusyMum]

Interesting topic! I am new to homeschooling and I don't know what the set up is in America, but here in NZ we have to submit a proposal to the Ministry of Education containing our philosophy of learning, our understanding of our own child's particular aptitudes and needs and how we will develop them, what resources we are planning to use, and what extracurricular resources are in our comminuty. People are often declined or asked for more information before their exemption is granted.

 

 

Also, here in NZ is a government body called the Education Review Office, which reviews and assesses schools. They have a special unit for homeschoolers and after you have been schooling for at least six months your name goes into a ballot to have an ERO assessment done on your homeschool. If it is inadequate then they can require you to remedy certain areas of lack or even revoke your exemption and require you to send your kids back into public school.

 

Personally, I think that this is an excellent thing.

[astrid]

I knew one. Here's what happened: the mother felt that she needed to go back to work and so she enrolled two kids in hs. They had to be tested to be placed into classes and both ended up one year behind. The mother told me that she "didn't do much writing with them."

 

I consider this a minor trainwreck, since it basically meant that a year of each child's life was wasted since they ended up graduating at 19.

 

That's why, while I respect the right of people to hs however they want, I think it is a good idea to give some attention to your ps standards so that, if your circumstances change and you have to enroll a child, they do not end up "behind." While I don't really care about "behind" as a concept, I think it can be embarrassing to the child and harm her self-confidence to be in classes where everyone is a year younger.

 

Interesting thoughts.

 

I know an unschooler whose father suddenly died in a car wreck. He had very little in the way of life insurance, and suddenly mom was faced with having to go to work full time. With no family in the area, their dd (only child) was enrolled in public school. She was 9 years old and could not read above a first grade level, couldn't write and didn't know anything about math. Mom and dad always intended to homeschool her through high school, but tragically, their plans suddenly changed.

 

The little girl didn't do well. She was embarrassed that she was so far behind her peers, and really struggled. Coupled with the sudden loss of her dad, it was a very rough several years for the family. She ended up quitting school at age 16, and is now estranged from her mom. It's such a heartbreaking situation.....

 

astrid

[Cheryl in NM]

Three families come to mind for me.

 

One family basically just left their son alone. The mom tried to school him some, but they butted heads so he unschooled. He started community college at 16 and went part-time for 2 years. He scored at the top of his class. He loved his class and was esteemed by his peers and teachers. Just recently, though, he's been tanking. He just isn't taking his schooling seriously after starting full-time.

 

The second family was very sheltered. The kids were exposed to lots of stuff through TV, the internet and video games, but didn't get out much. The daughter started community college at 17. She has blossomed.

 

The third family was hard-core unschooling. The youngest daughter was begging others to teach her to read at 11 yo but shows no interest in higher education now. The oldest son held a job from 16 on with no interest in higher education.

 

I really don't consider any of these trainwrecks. They are just families that I have seen grow for years. I think "different strokes for different folks".

 

OTH, I know a family that did everything right for their older son. He dropped out of college and waited tables. He got married, had a baby and got divorced in 2 years. He's still waiting tables. He was public schooled his whole life with very supportive, involved parents.

 

Trainwrecks happen. I think homeschool trainwrecks are more popular discussion. It's a human nature thing not a form of education thing.

[PrairieSong]

I knew a couple of single, divorced moms (I have nothing against divorced people!) who each hsed a daughter. Neither one really did anything for high school. In the first family I knew, the mother and daughter butted heads and the daughter refused to do much of anything.

 

In the other family, the mother had serious issues and was always wrapped up in some great cause or another, and when she wasn't working she was constantly on the phone. EVERY time I ever tried to call her I got a busy signal; if I went to her house she was on the phone...working on the Great Cause. She was totally focused on her own interests and ignored her daughter's needs. Once when I was riding in their car the daughter (then going into 9th grade) picked a fight with the mom because she was three years behind in school. (They used a correspondence school.) They looked at me, and I suggested calling someone at the school. The mom said, "Why would I do that???" :001_huh:

 

A few months later I asked the daughter (when the mom wasn't listening) how school was going and she said they hadn't done any school for months. I went to their house to speak to the mom. She was angry with ME for coming. I did not yell, but calmly stated that I thought education was important and also said there were people (including me) who would gladly offer free tutoring. She flatly refused, saying they'd been "focused on other things" lately.

 

The mom was extremely religious and legalistic (I share her basic beliefs but live them out very differently) and was very controlling with the daughter. Eventually she was not allowed to spend time with my girls anymore. She wasn't allowed to do much of anything; she had no outside activities of which I was aware. My dds told me that this girl had said when she turned 18 she was leaving. At age 18 she had a long, mysterious, grave illness that was thought to be malaria. When she turned 19, the mom came home one day to find a note. "Don't come looking for me," the girl wrote. I hope and pray that she is okay, and that she's found a way to complete high school, learn to drive, and do something with her life.

 

This situation was not the fault of homeschooling, but rather the dynamics between the mother and daughter. She'd have been better off going to school, but the mom was as adamantly opposed to that as anyone I've ever known.

[JWSJ]

I have met wonderful college students that were homeschooled.

 

And I've met some homeschool parents that were down right scary.

 

Homeschoolers are as diverse as can be.

[JudyJudyJudy]

I wouldn't consider this to be a trainwreck per se, but it is an example of someone who should not be homeschooling. My cousin's husband is a Southern Baptist minister. Because of this, he felt that their children should be homeschooled. Unfortunately, that meant that the schooling fell on my cousin, who suffers from depression and is very unorganized. (Her husband became a minister after they got married, and she feels that she was not cut out to be a preacher's wife, but she does the best she can.) She started off by buying a lot of curricula and had good intentions, but she never followed through; so basically their boys have done very little in terms of schooling for years now. They brag to their friends and cousins that they never have to do any work. One is in 12th grade this year, and the other is in 10th. I fear that neither will be able to pass the GED.

[Pamela H in Texas]

They were a large family and they claimed to homeschool but there were no books, no learning whatsoever. No order, either. The kids had no respect for their parents, got into drugs, alcohol, started having babies in their teens, you get the picture. The house was a disaster. It was just a very negative picture of what homeschooling is.

 

There is a HUGE difference between NON-schooling and UNschooling.

 

I tend to think that most homeschool wrecks are those who are wrecks in some way or another generally, not necessarily about homeschooling. Homeschooling is just another area that is neglected or mishandled for some people. Those are the situations where I DO believe the kids would be better off in school. At least there, they have a little more of a chance though there certainly are wrecks coming from, even caused by, public schools also.

 

JMO,

[Pamela H in Texas]

Some parents opt to homeschool for learning disabilities. We don't see this from the outside, so don't know what obstacles have been overcome in order to achieve whatever success a child has.

 

This is true. Most people would consider us a success because of our daughter and a failure because of our son. In reality, I think we've failed our daughter more and had more success with our son! Regardless, we did the best we could and our kids are where they are. We just keep trying to do better a little at a time.

[Pamela H in Texas]

When my kids were little, I would have said that I didn't know any homeschool failures and doubted there were many. In the last few years, I've changed my tune.

 

I know very few people who consistently homeschool in a bonafide manner (regardless of style INCLUDING unschooling!). Most non-school or MOSTLY non-school (for example, do school for 3 days then life happens for 2 weeks then they homeschool for 2 weeks then have no school for a week, etc). A few get as much as a semester or so per year. A few others get a class or two outside the home and that is it.

 

Stinks! I wish all homeschoolers were doing right by their kids!

[Catherine]

are out on their own with friends for many hours daily, or to my eyes, it seems that way. It is so true that we really can't know what is happening in someone's else's house or family.

 

I agree that the time issue is real, and I personally have had to set firm limits on time with some neighbor kids who we've had problems with. Luckily my kids play with each other a lot, and have at least a couple of friends whose parents I trust and who seem very decent and good kids.

 

I think that supervision is the key-when my kids are free, I allow play with other children, as long as it is either here at our house, or at the child's house (when I know parents will keep an eye on things). Honestly, so much depends on the child's personality. Some kids have a way of looking for trouble, and some don't! I have at least 2 of each! Even (especially!) supervision of teens. And, my mantra-keep them busy. Sports have done this for us, to a great extent.

[Pamela H in Texas]

What do you think? Is there anything to this?

 

I do think there is something to this! I think it is FINE for a 6yo to climb trees, play Barbies and trucks, do playdough, take a nap, etc. However, those things aren't so common for 14yos. So what ARE they doing past their homeschooling hours?

 

I tell you, this is something we DO struggle with as my kids are teens. Through unschooling then doing formal learning but having plenty of hours when they were younger, things were fine; but with teens.... They do volunteer (ds 3-6 hours per week; dd 3-20 hours). DS's schooling is not done by lunch but dd usually is done early. I just feel they have WAY too much time....

 

Anyway, but I know homeschool kids who use a certain correspondence school that work for a couple hours 2-3 days per week, do 3-10 hours per week of volunteering, and then watch an inordinate amount of tv, play on the computer, sleep too much, etc. I just don't think it's healthy.

[Renee in NC]

I get to hear a lot about "that kid in german class" from my friend, a ps teacher who had to teach this kid, at age 16, how to write down his assignments because his mom had always taken care of the details for him. She tells me about him almost weekly :)

 

I have a 15yo who has always been in ps that can't seem to write down his own assignments either. I wouldn't call it a hs problem!:D

[WTMindy]

After reading some comments here today, I wonder how many of you have known or known about formerly homeschooled students who are "trainwrecks".

 

I have not met anyone like that, and I'm surprised there are enough of those to comment on. I guess I don't get out much.

 

Is this the case -- that there are plenty of homeschoolers who are not as vigilant about educating their children as we are (or at least as we portray ourselves to be)?

 

RC

 

I know quite a few, actually. In my job, (I work in our school district's co-op for homeschool kids) I work with homeschooled high-schoolers. And, I am SOOOO saddened and dismayed by the education that many of them have received. I have TWO students who are at what would be considered grade level in math (out of 40-ish high schoolers) and while many of them are strong in language arts, I have many that are also not at grade level in these areas as well. By highschool, more than a handful of the parents have given up the fight and are not making their kids do ANY work. I have a couple of students who literally play video games all day when they are not in class with us. Now, many of these kids will probably go on to have productive lives, so I am not necessarily calling them "trainwrecks". I'm just saying that there are definitely families out there NOT providing a strong education for their kids.

 

My cousin, who is 20, is an example of a homeschooled kid who is a trainwreck. She has no skills, no motivation, she just got pregnant (not married), and she is not doing well.

 

There is no guarantee that because we homeschool "right" our kids will turn out fabulous! There is also no guarantee that because we do it "wrong" our kids will be a trainwreck. However, my goal is to give my kids every open door possible. I don't want them unprepared for college because I didn't do my job. I want them to be able to do whatever they feel God calling them to do!!

[WTMindy]

How do you know his math was neglected? Perhaps that is a weak subject for him. How many on this board never got beyond algebra? We have a boy in our hs group who is a sr. this year. He didn't read until he was 10. His mother did not neglect his education in the meantime. He struggles with algebra and is working with a tutor. However, this young man is an exemplary citizen - Eagle scout, has a paying job playing organ for a local church, volunteer work, taking community college classes in high school. He will likely get a full college scholarship for music (St. Olaf, Yale, Juliard). In the early years, many would have considered him a train wreck, but I have had the pleasure to see this boy grow and develop into a fine young man.

 

I know that math is neglected because they tell me. One kid hid his math book for a year and mom never did anything about it. They don't like it, so they don't do it. And, then the problem gets worse. I'm not talking about struggling with math. I expect kids to struggle with math, but I also would expect that the parents would help them persevere.

[Lovedtodeath]

If the definition of train wreck is that the family believes that the level of academics is adequate to meet the future goals of the children and it isn't......then, yes, I know plenty of families that fall into that definition.

 

And, yes, in my yrs of homeschooling, I would not hesitate to state that the level of academic pursuits on this board is an anomaly. It is why I do not discuss homeschooling with my friends and it is why I ask all my homeschooling related questions on this forum.

 

YES!!! I know of at least 6 homeschooling families who use workbooks from Walmart, the equivalent or even less. They know nothing of CM or classical, and have no idea what I mean when I say that is what we are doing. One family is "unschooling: which basically means doing nothing at all and watching Titanic 4 times a week, the other has kids taking a GED after they are "done", and I have my doubts that they will pass it. These kids have been "homeschooled" with parents gone, working full time and no supervision for the last 5-6 years. For the first couple of years Grandma homeschooled them while mom worked. She used sight reading and... you guessed it, workbooks from Walmart. Many homeschoolers I know think that they should put Biblical knowledge first... which is fine... but they do not value any secular education at all. I know many kids who are not just 1 or 2 grade levels behind. I bet I learned more in PS 4th grade than these "highschoolers". One was looking into a local highschool for an elective class and they won't take him.

 

Okay, that is enough... but IRL I know many more who have failed at homeschool than those that have succeeded.

[Diane]

Wow, I haven't read every single response, but I did read quite a few. It's scary that so many "trainwreck" homeschoolers are out there.

 

I know of one teen homeschoolers personally. She was homeschooled from K-until now. She is 15, dual inrolled at our local college, she is on the Dean's list, and she is so motivated, she is actually a personal trainer as well. She is the Pastor's daughter, and she takes on so many responsibilities at church, not because she is asked but because she insists on it. She has 4 other siblings, the next one in line is 13 and he is also doing well. The others are younger, so time will tell.

[Academy of Jedi Arts]

What bothers me, and I have gone full off 4 times in the last 2 days about it-

 

These same slack Wal Mart workbook using, Titanic watching, parents bash hard working public school teachers.

 

It makes me ashamed to go out in public and call myself a homeschooler.

[elizam]

How do you know his math was neglected? Perhaps that is a weak subject for him. How many on this board never got beyond algebra? We have a boy in our hs group who is a sr. this year. He didn't read until he was 10. His mother did not neglect his education in the meantime. He struggles with algebra and is working with a tutor. However, this young man is an exemplary citizen - Eagle scout, has a paying job playing organ for a local church, volunteer work, taking community college classes in high school. He will likely get a full college scholarship for music (St. Olaf, Yale, Juliard). In the early years, many would have considered him a train wreck, but I have had the pleasure to see this boy grow and develop into a fine young man.

 

 

Thank you for making this point!!!!!!!

 

I was PSed and I never liked math. I took Alg., Alg. 2, and Geometry. I have no idea how I even passed Geometry, but I tried hard and I got some tutoring and I think I made a C overall.

 

Otherwise I have always tested well, and made a 5 on my AP English exam, and CLEPed out of English, French 1, and Humanities in college.

 

People consider me intelligent.

 

My math was not neglected. I do remember the way things were done in PS, I often didn't really "get" the concepts. The beauty of homeschooling and choosing curriculum like Saxon, was that I was able to teach my own dc in a different way and make sure they had the time to get it before we moved on.

 

That said, when my 7th grade ds entered PS, he was a math trainwreck. They used GLencoe and they said Saxon itself was a trainwreck. I disagree, but then again, I'm not an "expert" and I probably failed my child, right?

 

He's been in PS 3 years now and is still a math trainwreck. SO I guess the PS can't do any better by him than I could. He IS ADHD, but that's considered a "made up" thing by so many people, especially homeschoolers.

 

This thread is just making me mad. I think many homeschooled kids are/were not served well in PS and they did better in HS, but no one wants to admit that.

[dangermom]

Recently I visited a girl I grew up with--we lived next door to each other, went to church together, I was her bridesmaid, etc. We weren't best friends or anything but we're still very happy to see each other. At one point she talked about her brother's wife (who I also knew and went to high school with)--they are homeschooling their 5 kids.

 

What I heard concerned me very much, really. They are unschoolers but that mainly means that Mom pays attention to the baby and not much to anyone else; they just hang around the house and don't do much. Mom talks about having up to 8 children, which would be great if she did something with the older ones. Mom dropped out of high school at the encouragement of her own mother, but not with intent to homeschool (which is totally flabbergasting, since they were an upper-middle class family with high education levels).

 

Now, it's very hard for me to figure out how much proverbial salt to take this description with. The trouble is, my friend and her SIL really have nothing whatsoever in common and I don't think they understand each other too well. For all I know, she's doing a fine job and my friend just doesn't like her very much, but the specifics she gave were quite worrying. I'm not one to go around thinking the worst and assuming everyone who doesn't homeschool my way is doing it wrong, but I do wonder if that isn't a trainwreck in the making.

[Jenny in Florida]

YES!!! I know of at least 6 homeschooling families who use workbooks from Walmart, the equivalent or even less.

 

I just have to say that I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with using inexpensive, off-the-shelf workbooks as the core of a homeschool curriculum, especially when kids are young. We did, and it doesn't seem to have done either of ours any harm. Heck, I was at Target the other day and noticed they had a bunch of elementary-level workbooks in their Dollar Spot and got all nostalgic about buying things for my two at the dollar store lo these many years ago.

 

For me, the key is doing whatever you do consistently and taking it seriously. So, if you pull together a basic curriculum with workbooks from Wal-Mart but make sure your child is doing the work properly and regularly, I honestly think that's probably fine. Especially if you enrich with plenty of reading and field trips and projects. Sure, it's not our beloved "classical" approach, but I think it's more than adequate as long as parents are involved and making sure it gets done.

[Lovedtodeath]

I just have to say that I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with using inexpensive, off-the-shelf workbooks as the core of a homeschool curriculum, especially when kids are young. We did, and it doesn't seem to have done either of ours any harm. Heck, I was at Target the other day and noticed they had a bunch of elementary-level workbooks in their Dollar Spot and got all nostalgic about buying things for my two at the dollar store lo these many years ago.

 

For me, the key is doing whatever you do consistently and taking it seriously. So, if you pull together a basic curriculum with workbooks from Wal-Mart but make sure your child is doing the work properly and regularly, I honestly think that's probably fine. Especially if you enrich with plenty of reading and field trips and projects. Sure, it's not our beloved "classical" approach, but I think it's more than adequate as long as parents are involved and making sure it gets done.

 

I am sorry if I came across as snobbish. In these cases many of these are enrichment workbooks and were never meant to be used as a curriculum. They have many holes that never get covered at all. But if someone has done their research about what a scope and sequence should be and takes homeschooling seriously, adding to these, as you are stating then that is a different matter.

[Jean in Newcastle]

In the interest of fairness - parents who won't school their homeschoolers aren't the only ones out there creating train-wrecks! And also in the interest of fairness - most parents who send their kids to public school aren't creating train-wrecks. Do you know what is the common denominator in the majority of home and public school trainwrecks? Parents who don't parent. As a former teacher I saw lots of kids who were dumped on the school-bus with no breakfast (which is why the schools now have taken over). They came with no homework done. Little ones and big ones came without ever having had anyone read to them, or do flash-cards with them. I tutored kids whose sole vocabulary came from watching Jerry Springer. I tutored an inner-city boy who didn't know the meaning of the word "intersection" even though he was surrounded by them. These parents park their kids in front of the t.v. or video game system or computer. Many of these kids came to school blurry eyed and then fought to stay awake because Mom had gone out and left them (a 3rd grader) in charge of baby-sitting the younger siblings. Seeing what this behavior did to these kids made me so mad (as well as sad for the kids). Seeing what happens when supposedly homeschooling parents don't actually follow through and school their kids makes me mad and sad also. But it also makes me scared: because sometimes I ignore my kids. Sometimes I let things slide much too long (like my ds's handwriting). And yes, I know the key is the word "sometimes" but I do find all of this to be a lesson to me.

[Lovedtodeath]

But it also makes me scared: because sometimes I ignore my kids. Sometimes I let things slide much too long (like my ds's handwriting). And yes, I know the key is the word "sometimes" but I do find all of this to be a lesson to me.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

YES! Me too on all accounts.

 

DH and I have seen these horrendous trainwrecks and we are determined that it will not be us!! If I let things slide to the point that our children are behind PS kids (and it is my fault, not a LD or a difficult subject) they will go to PS. I will not let them be illiterate.

[ravengal]

Thanks to the recommendations on this board, my older dd was certainly given a more than average academic foundation when she was homeschooled. However, dh and I were not as vigilant about character development, or adjusting to her changing needs as she entered adolescence. After entering public high school as a ninth grader, my dd struggled mightily in a way that would classify her as a trainwreck by this board's standards.

 

She will soon turn 19, and is making much better choices. As a matter of fact, her maturity level surpasses that of many young adults her age. She's gained some insights into life that took me much longer to obtain. We are developing a wonderful, adult-level friendship, and I'm prouder of her than ever before.

[scubamama]

Yikes! Reading all these stories of train wrecks makes me go into a panic....We are only starting 1st grade - what if I ruin my kids b/c I think hs is the way to go? What if etc etc etc...I guess I could spend all day worrying (or the rest of my life for that matter!)I have seen a few "potential trainwrecks" at my HS coop...it gives me the willies. This topic gives me even more reson to be GRATEFUL that I stumbled onto Classical ed and this board so early in the game...it's nice to know there's somewhere I can go to get a clue. Keep on posting ideas ladies - us newbies need YOU!!!!

 

Michele

 

DS 6.5 1st super reader!

DD 3.9 "I can read too!!"

DD 1 eating the books

[angela in ohio]

Yikes! Reading all these stories of train wrecks makes me go into a panic....We are only starting 1st grade - what if I ruin my kids b/c I think hs is the way to go? What if etc etc etc...

 

I think the key piece of advice to take away from this thread is not to be complacent. The parents I see having trouble are those who assumed that homeschooling is some magc pill. They think the act of homeschooling itself will make dc academically superior and morally upstanding. This is not the case. Parents still need to put in the day to day (to day to day...) grueling work.

[Lovedtodeath]

I think the key piece of advice to take away from this thread is not to be complacent. The parents I see having trouble are those who assumed that homeschooling is some magc pill. They think the act of homeschooling itself will make dc academically superior and morally upstanding. This is not the case. Parents still need to put in the day to day (to day to day...) grueling work.

 

:iagree: Very well said. What a nice wrap-up!!

[jamnkats]

Yikes! Reading all these stories of train wrecks makes me go into a panic....We are only starting 1st grade - what if I ruin my kids b/c I think hs is the way to go? What if etc etc etc...I guess I could spend all day worrying (or the rest of my life for that matter!)I have seen a few "potential trainwrecks" at my HS coop...it gives me the willies. This topic gives me even more reson to be GRATEFUL that I stumbled onto Classical ed and this board so early in the game...it's nice to know there's somewhere I can go to get a clue. Keep on posting ideas ladies - us newbies need YOU!!!!

 

Michele

 

DS 6.5 1st super reader!

DD 3.9 "I can read too!!"

DD 1 eating the books

 

I personally think (but I'm an unschooler whose kids love unschooling but I would have preferred a Classic education as a kid) that as long as YOU are learning and the kids, on a daily (or weekly) basis say, "I didn't know that!", you are doing well.

 

Right now we're are reading a lot about Japan's history and we have daily, "I didn't know THAT’S" :) As long as I keep hearing that or seeing the spark of understanding something new in my kids eyes or simply MYSELF learning something new as I read it to them, I know I'm on the right track.

[Joanne]

Quote:

They were a large family and they claimed to homeschool but there were no books, no learning whatsoever. No order, either. The kids had no respect for their parents, got into drugs, alcohol, started having babies in their teens, you get the picture. The house was a disaster. It was just a very negative picture of what homeschooling is.

There is a HUGE difference between NON-schooling and UNschooling.

 

I'd further clarify this to say that there is a difference between unschooling and un*parenting*. Most unschoolers I know would also be aghast at the above.

 

I'm a bit.......:confused: at the "unschooling" comments in this thread. I've noticed over the years that 1) more traditional homeschoolers tend to evaluate unschooling inaccurately and 2) there is a segment who call themselves unschoolers who do unparent and call it unschooling - but, IMO, not to the numbers percieved by the traditionally homeschooling community. It's kind of like other situations where an individual "doesn't bother" to explain learning in their home because people fail to get it or they listen with a decision made. Let's face it, on a classical based board, the respect for unschooling - even true, intentional unschooling - is going to be reluctant.

 

I know quite a few, actually. In my job, (I work in our school district's co-op for homeschool kids) I work with homeschooled high-schoolers.

 

I *used to* defend homeschoolers as superior - staunchly and loudly. While I still don't personally know of any homeschooling trainwrecks, I have read the exist by many people I respect - such at WTMindy above and Ria (where is Ria, anyway?). So, I believe them.

 

I do still wonder, though. Not that they exist, but to what degree. Maybe because my mothering peer group has always been intentional, diligent and disciplined? I wonder if trainwrecks exist to the levels that seem to be represented here. I've been around homeschoolers, fairly intimately, for 8 years and haven't seen anything like what I've read here.

 

My speculation is that perhaps trainwrecks or at risk situations are more prevalent among those who homeschool primarily for very conservative, sheltering, legalistic and fear-based reasons. I'm going to further speculate there is an increased percentage of parents concerned primarily with education as I define it in that group. It's a homeschool segment I've spent little time with.

[Kimberleigh]

I think unschooling has been given a bad connotation because most of the trainwrecks people know use the term unschooling as an excuse for not guiding and parenting their children. They're not unschooling any more than they're homeschooling. It's just legalized truancy. I know several real unschoolers who have done amazing things with their children, and those kids have gone on to top colleges and excelled there.

 

We knew a trainwreck family. The mother openly admitted that she was homeschooling because it just seemed like such a hassle to have to get the kid up every morning to go to school. They filled every day with park days and play dates, with no time to go to the library or stay home and work. The child didn't know how to read and couldn't do even basic math. Making a bad situation worse, he was an absolutely obnoxious kid and none of the other kids wanted to be around him. He'd bully the other kids, sometimes physically, and the mother would refuse to take action. They just kept showing up at a group until someone would finally get the courage to kick them out, then they'd be on to the next group.

 

As bad as he was, I always felt sorry for the kid. He desperately needed parenting and an education, and those would have curbed most of the behavioral problems. But because the mother was homeschooling simply to avoid having to make any effort whatsoever, he wasn't getting those. And yes, she called herself an unschooler. But she could've also called herself Nicolas Sarkozy and that wouldn't have made her the leader of France.

[8filltheheart]

 

I *used to* defend homeschoolers as superior - staunchly and loudly. While I still don't personally know of any homeschooling trainwrecks, I have read the exist by many people I respect - such at WTMindy above and Ria (where is Ria, anyway?). So, I believe them.

 

I do still wonder, though. Not that they exist, but to what degree. Maybe because my mothering peer group has always been intentional, diligent and disciplined? I wonder if trainwrecks exist to the levels that seem to be represented here. I've been around homeschoolers, fairly intimately, for 8 years and haven't seen anything like what I've read here.

 

My speculation is that perhaps trainwrecks or at risk situations are more prevalent among those who homeschool primarily for very conservative, sheltering, legalistic and fear-based reasons. I'm going to further speculate there is an increased percentage of parents concerned primarily with education as I define it in that group. It's a homeschool segment I've spent little time with.

 

 

THis is why I posted my definition of "homeschooling train-wreck." I have a child of my own who I know is very possibly going to train wreck if the definition is screwing up their lives and making huge mistakes. It has nothing to do with education, upbringing, values, etc. It has everything to do with mental stability, personal responsibility, and thinking through to the ultimate end of consequences of choices.

 

"Homeschooling train wreck" in my POV is strictly about whether the same child in two different educational situations has the equal opportunity for achieving future goals. Not the parents goals. Not spiritual goals. I am speaking strictly in terms of the child's/teenagers future academic/career goals.

 

There is a huge distinction here. I have been bashed for making comments like above with the argument that many families don't have academic achievements as their primary goal. Personally, that argument doesn't hold any value with me b/c I do not see how having high academic standards in any way devalues or infringes upon spiritual values. If the child is insisting on lower standards, that is a different scenerio than a parent making the decision to not provide appropriate education.

 

Secondly, I am thinking specifically about the child. When you have a child that has serious academic goals and the parent dismisses appropriate academic standards or doesn't properly investigate educational standards/requirements.....and that same child in a different educational setting would have self sought those academic courses......I see that as a situation where homeschooling has done a child a serious disservice.

 

I have been told, well, if the child is that serious, they can pursue those educational goals as an adult. Yes, they can. After a couple of yrs of hard work gaining the academics that should have been accomplished during high school. Yes, if they are willing to endure the expense of paying for remedial courses on top of typical college tuition. Yes, if they can recognize that they possess the skills to actually succeed and that the fault is not that they are dumb, but they simply weren't educated.

 

I get frustrated by the thinking that anything that is done at home is superior to other educational choices. While there are horrendous schools out there, they are in no way every single school and every single teacher. Complacency doesn't help anyone, in or out of a school setting.

[ChemMommy]

you are doing a good enough job, that you are doing a good enough job.

 

Just the fact that you are concerned about whether you are preparing your kids adequately for the dreams you have for them means that you are on the right track.

 

Genuine unschoolers are very concerned about helping their kids pursue their passions.

 

Genuine Classical schoolers are very concerned about getting the correct literature and history program

 

Truant schoolers are not concerned about their kids education and have given up the struggle to get them to learn or to go to school. They've abdicated from parenting, not schooling!!!!

 

And yet, when all is said and done, you can't control and create the perfect child. You may pour your life into a child and they may deviate greatly when they hit adulthood. I pray that they never happens in our house!! But, at least, I gave it a huge effort.

 

Yes, I know a hs train wreck: pg at 18, married at 18, dropped out of college, pg at 20, divorced at 20. Her mom said that her dd's character and willfulness was obvious throughout the hsing years. The intangible, unmeasurable, uncontrollable factor is the child's free will or nature. I can only provide the best fertilizer and let God grow the crop.

[ChemMommy]

In the interest of fairness - parents who won't school their homeschoolers aren't the only ones out there creating train-wrecks! And also in the interest of fairness - most parents who send their kids to public school aren't creating train-wrecks. Do you know what is the common denominator in the majority of home and public school trainwrecks? Parents who don't parent.

 

 

:iagree:

 

I had friends who rejoiced when their last child headed off to KINDERGARTEN because they were "done" with parenting now!