Libertarians-poll-not a debate

[Desert Strawberry]

Please be nice.

I identify as a libertarian.

Most political discussion divides into liberal/conservative, left/right. I don't find that I can identify with any of those labels. It feels a bit pretentious, though, to say that I am neither left nor right, liberal, nor conservative. But that's how it feels from where I'm standing. 

 

Where would you place libertarians on the political spectrum?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think the problem is that many far right conservatives label themselves as libertarians when they don't actually fit the description.

 

Edited to say that I do agree with you, as a rule.

[SeaConquest]

I identify as a Libertarian, but register as a Republican to vote in the CA primary. I'm fiscally conservative and socially liberal, but more interventionist/pro-national defense than many Libertarians, so I voted neither in your poll.

[Orthodox6]

Closer to the right end of the spectrum than perhaps they wish to admit.  At least that is how their typical positions come across when I have read about them.

 

 

[Orthodox6]

Please be nice.

 

I identify as a libertarian.

Most political discussion divides into liberal/conservative, left/right. I don't find that I can identify with any of those labels. It feels a bit pretentious, though, to say that I am neither left nor right, liberal, nor conservative. But that's how it feels from where I'm standing. 

 

Where would you place libertarians on the political spectrum?

 

Would you feel more at ease stuck in my political non-definition?  I am either left OR right, either liberal OR conservative, with everything depending wholly upon the particular issue under discussion.  Awkward, but that is what results from thinking things through, rather than blindly following someone else's platform. 

[creekland]

I'm Libertarian and voted somewhere else entirely as whether I side left or right depends upon the issue at hand - and even then it can be different.

 

I'm registered Republican where I live as some of our elections are determined in the primaries here (no Dem has a chance).  In elections where there are chances for either party, I can vote as I wish and do so.

 

When I lived in FL I was registered as a Democrat, but to be honest, neither party fits me.  That just seemed right at the time.

 

I'd register Independent, except then, where I've lived, that means one can't vote in the primaries.  More or less ditto if I register Libertarian - it makes the primaries really out and some of our elections are decided there.

 

I hardly follow politics except right before elections (primary and general) so I can decide who to vote for and then I use voting records if possible, statements of what they want to happen if not (coupled with what their position has influence on).

[Desert Strawberry]

Would you feel more at ease stuck in my political non-definition?  I am either left OR right, either liberal OR conservative, with everything depending wholly upon the particular issue under discussion.  Awkward, but that is what results from thinking things through, rather than blindly following someone else's platform. 

Not really. I have strong convictions, and come from a single, solid point of view. I generally think both sides are wrong, and approaching any given issue from an incorrect angle. I view both sides as essentially the same, and bickering over details.

So, yeah. Neither. 

[Orthodox6]

Not really. I have strong convictions, and come from a single, solid point of view. I generally think both sides are wrong, and approaching any given issue from an incorrect angle. I view both sides as essentially the same, and bickering over details.

So, yeah. Neither. 

 

Interested in understanding better.  If you have a "single, solid point of view", would not it coincide with some existing political group or philosophy?  There is no element with which you agree at all, when considering typical viewpoints of Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever else there is in the U.S.?  Absolutely no overlap on any issue with anybody? 

 

I ask this with true interest, because as best as I can interpret the text of your post, in that there exists an expressed political opinion available for probably every possible topic, I am left to conclude that you are apolitical, thus with no discernible political views.  This, however, is not what you say about yourself.

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

[SKL]

I view Libertarians as moderate to left on social issues, and more right on economic issues.

 

I know many people who would identify as Libertarians if they were aware of that choice.

 

Of course just like Liberal and Conservative, nobody is going to be exactly 100% Libertarian, but it fits many better than the two "default" parties.

[Desert Strawberry]

Interested in understanding better.  If you have a "single, solid point of view", would not it coincide with some existing political group or philosophy?  There is no element with which you agree at all, when considering typical viewpoints of Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens, or whatever else there is in the U.S.?  Absolutely no overlap on any issue with anybody? 

 

I ask this with true interest, because as best as I can interpret the text of your post, in that there exists an expressed political opinion available for probably every possible topic, I am left to conclude that you are apolitical, thus with no discernible political views.  This, however, is not what you say about yourself.

 

Thanks for your patience!

 

I identify as a libertarian. I'm asking where libertarians fall on a left-right spectrum.

 

You asked (if I am understanding) if I would be more comfortable in the middle, choosing left or right based on each individual issue. I would not.

[obsidian]

I think the problem is that many far right conservatives label themselves as libertarians when they don't actually fit the description.

 

Edited to say that I do agree with you, as a rule.

 

Mm yeah, pretty much this. My understanding of the word as a more...dictionary? definition is mostly that it's a live and let live sort of philosophy, I suppose. It's hard to know what people mean when they identify as libertarian, though, because of those on the far right using the label.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think right and left don't apply to Libertarians.  (I am one.)  Both the left and the right accept government intervention, legislation and regulation in areas the US Constitution does not and state constitutions should not.  Which ones and how much are what steer you to the left or right.  

Libertarians and much of the left agree that government shouldn't intervene in sexual matters between consenting adults.  They disagree on government regulation of just about everything.  Libertarians and much of the right agree that government shouldn't regulate education but disagree when it comes to who qualifies to be legally married to whom.  So, it's impossible to make left right orientations except maybe when it comes to international policy on things like preemption and retaliation for acts of war.

Also, many a Libertarian is personally extremely socially conservative because of their moral convictions, but recognize the right of everyone else to act immorally without government intervention as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's individual  rights.  I think this is the biggest divide between those in the right/left spectrum and Libertarians in general.  We don't feel the need to legislate our deep, burning ,personal convictions, where as those on the left and right feel morally obligated to do so.

So, I picked "somewhere else entirely."

[MFG]

I see the underlying philosophy of Libertarianism being laissez-faire, which leads to more right-seeming economic positions and more left-seeming social views, although neither right nor left are a perfect match. Also a non-interventionist foreign policy.

[poppy]

I see the underlying philosophy of Libertarianism being laissez-faire, which leads to more right-seeming economic positions and more left-seeming social views, although neither right nor left are a perfect match. Also a non-interventionist foreign policy.

 

Non interventionist foreign policy

Do not interfere with business

Does not support social programs to support the poor or ill

I think all 3 align pretty well with the right.

 

Keeping the government out of the bedroom and doctor's office is a bit closer to the left.

 

But the scale tips strongly to the right IMO.

[EKS]

From what I've read, Libertarians supposedly fall on the far right.  But what's funny is that I actually find myself agreeing with them on some things even though I am am extremely liberal.  

[Farrar]

Sort of somewhere else. However, I think there's a reason that the right welcomes them and likes to brand themselves as libertarian (even though, as pointed out, they often aren't really) and the left does not. Plus... many of the professional LP, Cato types simply do not have a good record of standing up for some of the social issue elements of libertarianism, such as gay rights and separation of church and state. It means that politically speaking, the right really does "own" the label even if the philosophy is really a different perspective.

[Guest]

I identify as libertarian. If asked, I would say I am a centrist, or moderate, but a more thorough answer would be fiscally conservative, socially liberal.

[Guest]

I think right and left don't apply to Libertarians. (I am one.) Both the left and the right accept government intervention, legislation and regulation in areas the US Constitution does not and state constitutions should not. Which ones and how much are what steer you to the left or right.

 

Libertarians and much of the left agree that government shouldn't intervene in sexual matters between consenting adults. They disagree on government regulation of just about everything. Libertarians and much of the right agree that government shouldn't regulate education but disagree when it comes to who qualifies to be legally married to whom. So, it's impossible to make left right orientations except maybe when it comes to international policy on things like preemption and retaliation for acts of war.

 

Also, many a Libertarian is personally extremely socially conservative because of their moral convictions, but recognize the right of everyone else to act immorally without government intervention as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's individual rights. I think this is the biggest divide between those in the right/left spectrum and Libertarians in general. We don't feel the need to legislate our deep, burning ,personal convictions, where as those on the left and right feel morally obligated to do so.

 

So, I picked "somewhere else entirely."

Well said.

[Erin]

Yet another who voted somewhere else entirely. 

 

I like politcalcompass.org for the this questions, personally...

[Lady Florida.]

NM. I misunderstood the question. :) 

 

I'm not at all libertarian.

[Word Nerd]

Libertarians tend to be more liberal on social issues (though they may have more conservative views for themselves) and more conservative on economic issues--at least if they're consistent.

[texasmama]

Not really. I have strong convictions, and come from a single, solid point of view. I generally think both sides are wrong, and approaching any given issue from an incorrect angle. I view both sides as essentially the same, and bickering over details.

So, yeah. Neither. 

This is pretty much where I am.  I am about as apolitical as one gets.  I do vote.  I described myself once to my dad and he told me I am Libertarian, which is the only way I know this.

[Crimson Wife]

The libertarians I know agree with liberals on certain issues like the legalization of marijuana, gay marriage, foreign policy, and civil liberties but disagree with them on the size and scope of the government. The libertarians agree with conservatives on most fiscal issues but disagree that government should be the morality police or get involved in foreign policy matters that do not have a direct impact on our national security.

 

I always come out at the intersection of libertarian, moderate, and conservative on those political quizzes.

[kiwik]

I don't think we have them here. You have to register as Republican or Democrat to vote? How does that work?

[Audrey]

I consider them further to the right than the standard right-wing US conservative.

[PrincessMommy]

Closer to the right end of the spectrum than perhaps they wish to admit. At least that is how their typical positions come across when I have read about them.

Except with foreign policy and war. Also many libertarian ideology would not be compatible with conservative politics on things like porn, abortion, and prob. marriage rights.

[umsami]

Today, most Libertarians I know are definitely right.  A lot came over from the Tea Party.

 

But..in the past (pre-2008)…the ones I knew tended to be neither.

 

We have a libertarian candidate for gov. of Florida.  You can read his views here.  He's more liberal on social issues and more conservative on other issues as far as I can tell. 

 

http://wyllieforgovernor.com

[Slartibartfast]

I don't think we have them here. You have to register as Republican or Democrat to vote? How does that work?

 

 

Parties often have more than one candidate each in some areas, they have to run off against one another to see which will represent their party in the election, those are primary elections. In some states one has to be a member of one of those parties to vote in those elections. For instance, Democrats vote in the Democratic primary and Republicans vote in the Republican primary.

 

For the final election everyone votes.

[Slartibartfast]

IME Libertarians are more left wing than an average-Democrats and right wing than average-Republicans.

 

I chose, "somewhere else entirely"

[MistyMountain]

The political spectrum is actually much larger than left, right middle to me. To me I think of it as a huge quadrant with social issues going up and down and economics going left to right and the range on that is actually much larger than the difference between the democrats and republicans. The political spectrum is huge.

 

The Political Compass is a good reflection of it but not perfect. http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2 Bottom line though is that the political spectrum is much bigger then most people make it out to be and things don't always fit in neat little boxes.

[Erin]

I've noticed a lot of self-proclaimed libertarians don't actually understand what the term means...Usually the extreme right-wing calling themselves "libertarian."

 

 

WordNerd is right.  

 

Libertarians tend to be more liberal on social issues (though they may have more conservative views for themselves) and more conservative on economic issues--at least if they're consistent.

[Slartibartfast]

I really like that chart.

 

I wonder where the new Pope would fit...

 

I guess I think of libertarians being a boon to the right by default, whether they want to be or not. 

 

I don't think they have really been much of a boon, more  like second cousins that annoy one another.

 

 

[Word Nerd]

I consider them further to the right than the standard right-wing US conservative.

Then you must not read Reason.

[KidsHappen]

Also a Libertarian and I voted somewhere else entirely. A good short book for explaining what Libertarians believe is: What Libertarians Believe by Charles Murray: http://www.amazon.com/What-Means-Libertarian-Charles-Murray-ebook/dp/B0042JSO0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411785202&sr=8-1&keywords=what+it+means+to+be+a+libertarian 

[HS Mom in NC]

It irritates me when someone who hasn't actually read the Libertarian party platform goes around telling people what Libertarians believe.  If you have done so in the past, please refrain from doing it in the future. I refer people directly to the Democrats' party platform, the Republicans' party platform, the Green party's platform, and the Constitutionalist's party platform so they can read it for themselves.  All I ask is they do it in return because fair and accurate is fair and accurate.

 

http://www.lp.org/platform

 

http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform

 

https://www.gop.com/platform/

 

http://www.gp.org/committees/platform/2012/

 

http://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/2012-2016-platform-and-resolutions/

 

 

 

NOTE* When I say I am one, I mean I'm a registered Libertarian.

[kiwik]

Parties often have more than one candidate each in some areas, they have to run off against one another to see which will represent their party in the election, those are primary elections. In some states one has to be a member of one of those parties to vote in those elections. For instance, Democrats vote in the Democratic primary and Republicans vote in the Republican primary.

 

For the final election everyone votes.

I see so it is only for votes between members of the same party. That is the same as here but the in party votes are not part of the electoral process and most people are not a member of a party and don't take part.

[poppy]

It irritates me when someone who hasn't actually read the Libertarian party platform goes around telling people what Libertarians believe.  If you have done so in the past, please refrain from doing it in the future. I refer people directly to the Democrats' party platform, the Republicans' party platform, the Green party's platform, and the Constitutionalist's party platform so they can read it for themselves.  All I ask is they do it in return because fair and accurate is fair and accurate.

 

http://www.lp.org/platform

 

http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform

 

https://www.gop.com/platform/

 

http://www.gp.org/committees/platform/2012/

 

http://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/2012-2016-platform-and-resolutions/

 

The platform tell you a small portion of the story. 

If you don't know anything about FDR or JFK  or Clinton, you don't really understand Democrats.

If you don't know anything about Nixon or Reagan and Bush, you don't understand Republicans.

[HS Mom in NC]

The platform tell you a small portion of the story. 

If you don't know anything about FDR or JFK  or Clinton, you don't really understand Democrats.

If you don't know anything about Nixon or Reagan and Bush, you don't understand Republicans.

 

The party platforms never claim to be the whole story.  They're an overview of the main issues. I said people who have never read the party platform, speaking on behalf of the party tend to get it wrong.  I'm recommending people make an effort to go directly to a first source rather than getting it from someone who isn't one-that's directly relevant to the previous posts who seem to have lots of different ideas about what Libertarianism is all about and how they are similar to and different than other parties.   What was your point?  That I didn't give a complete history of the evolution of each party and biographical and political philosophy information about icons from within each party?  You're right, but then I wasn't trying to and never claimed to because that's not what this thread is about.

[Erin]

Also, the current Libertarian party isn't necessarily synonymous with libertarian political ideals (much like the Communist party isn't a very good example of actual communism)

[Slartibartfast]

I see so it is only for votes between members of the same party. That is the same as here but the in party votes are not part of the electoral process and most people are not a member of a party and don't take part.

 

 

 It is a separate election, when one registers to vote one must say whether they are Republican, Democrat, Independent, Green, Libertarian, or whatever other parties are recognized in certain states. 

 

In some states one needn't be a member of a party to vote in a primary but one is only allowed to vote in one primary and not just vote in them all to mess with their numbers.

[kiwik]

Thanks. I must learn some more before your next election.

[Spy Car]

Then you must not read Reason.

 

Reason, like the Tea Party, is bankrolled by the Koch brothers.

 

Same family that bankrolled the far-right John Birch Society.

 

The LP is just the JBS with a different face.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Also a Libertarian and I voted somewhere else entirely. A good short book for explaining what Libertarians believe is: What Libertarians Believe by Charles Murray: http://www.amazon.com/What-Means-Libertarian-Charles-Murray-ebook/dp/B0042JSO0S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411785202&sr=8-1&keywords=what+it+means+to+be+a+libertarian

 

The same Charles Murray, self-described "paleo-conservative," who wrote the notoriously racist "Bell Curve" book which argued blacks were genetically inferior/stupid. The man the Southern Povery Law Center calls a "white nationalist."

 

Good grief.

 

Bill

[KidsHappen]

Libertarians tend to be more liberal on social issues (though they may have more conservative views for themselves) and more conservative on economic issues--at least if they're consistent.

This is where I fall although I prefer a smaller government than either party.

[LucyStoner]

Little l libertarian? I associate it strongly with the Chicago school of economic thought and economists like Milton Friedman and Thomas Sowell; influenced by Austrian Econ and the likes of FA Hayek. These people tend to be, in the USA anyways, Republicans and too realistic to join a third party.

 

Capital L Libertarianism as I the Libertarian party? I associate that with a hodge lodge of some leftish and some more hard right political thought, comprised of people who I tend to find rather idealistic and pedantic. It varies regionally to a degree. More right wing in red states; more lefty social views in blue states.

 

I am not now, not have I ever been either sort of libertarian. It's at the very bottom of my list of ranked preferences for political beliefs. That said, I am far from ignorant about libertarian thought. Frankly, most of the non-right wing people I know who think they are libertarians aren't really. At all. In any way actually libertarians.

[creekland]

I don't think we have them here. You have to register as Republican or Democrat to vote? How does that work?

 

Yes, as mentioned upthread, in our state we have primary elections in May to determine who will represent their party in Nov (or, for Pres elections, who our state will vote for to represent the party at the National Convention).  If one is not a registered member of the party, one can't vote in the primary.

 

I live rural and rural tends to be synonymous with Republican.  True to the stereotype, for some of our local elections, the Democrats don't even run an opposition member in the general election.  Therefore, the Republican winner in May runs unopposed.  Where the Democrats do run a competitor, it's merely a token as they'll be outvoted 3:1.  Therefore, the Republican winner in May wins.  The way I see it is if I care to vote for who will be running local offices, I need to be registered Republican - so I do.  Local gov't affects us far more than many other positions.

 

In the General elections in Nov, I can vote for whichever candidate I want and I often vote for different parties for different positions.

 

My Libertarian views are fiscally Conservative (hubby works as a Civil Engineer & owns his own business - the more we see - the more fiscally conservative we get even though he benefits from some of the stupid regs that are passed).  However, I'm also mainly a live & let live person with regards to gay marriage, drugs, and other social issues (except abortion).  Then I'm a nature lover and pretty green.  This last part doesn't align with most Libertarians, but the first doesn't align with the Democrats and the second doesn't align with the Republicans, so when voting comes around I have to really think about who CAN change things or who is most likely to vote the way I would in issues that will come up (vs those that won't for their position).

 

Nonetheless, due to my chosen location, I'm a card-carrying Republican.  If I had my choice and could still vote in the primary of my choice in any given election year, I'd register Independent.  There is no party I truly identify with on all points, but I identify with all on some points. 

[Word Nerd]

Reason, like the Tea Party, is bankrolled by the Koch brothers.

 

Same family that bankrolled the far-right John Birch Society.

 

The LP is just the JBS with a different face.

 

Bill

So the point of this logical fallacy is that regardless of its actual editorial content, Reason must a far-right publication because a Koch is a donor to the Reason Foundation?

[Spy Car]

So the point of this logical fallacy is that regardless of its actual editorial content, Reason must a far-right publication because a Koch is a donor to the Reason Foundation?

Not "a" donor, but the leading funder of Reason.

 

"Following the money" is not a logical fallacy, it is soundly pragmatic.

 

Bill

[umsami]

It irritates me when someone who hasn't actually read the Libertarian party platform goes around telling people what Libertarians believe.  If you have done so in the past, please refrain from doing it in the future. I refer people directly to the Democrats' party platform, the Republicans' party platform, the Green party's platform, and the Constitutionalist's party platform so they can read it for themselves.  All I ask is they do it in return because fair and accurate is fair and accurate.

 

http://www.lp.org/platform

 

http://www.democrats.org/democratic-national-platform

 

https://www.gop.com/platform/

 

http://www.gp.org/committees/platform/2012/

 

http://www.constitutionparty.com/our-principles/2012-2016-platform-and-resolutions/

 

 

 

NOTE* When I say I am one, I mean I'm a registered Libertarian.

 

Sigh…you made me imagine what life could be like with a real viable Green Party. 

 

Sadly, I rarely vote green because 1) Usually don't have local candidates  and 2) It serves to throw away my vote in a state where the Presidential race is usually quite tight…and our electoral votes have been deciders in the past.

[poppy]

The party platforms never claim to be the whole story. They're an overview of the main issues. I said people who have never read the party platform, speaking on behalf of the party tend to get it wrong. I'm recommending people make an effort to go directly to a first source rather than getting it from someone who isn't one-that's directly relevant to the previous posts who seem to have lots of different ideas about what Libertarianism is all about and how they are similar to and different than other parties. What was your point? That I didn't give a complete history of the evolution of each party and biographical and political philosophy information about icons from within each party? You're right, but then I wasn't trying to and never claimed to because that's not what this thread is about.

My point is that the platforms are PR that aren't really all that revealing. Some of it , in my opinion, is bread & circuses. Others parts are a wish list so unrealistic that only the most naive idealist would give weight to.