(Controversial content) a letter to girls in the pew in front of us...

[Joyofsixreboot]

You've all made my weekend. I am chortling softly because children are sleeping but my inner trollop is guffawing with vigor. Ooh, and I'm wearing compression shorts. I feel like a tramp except here in the dark no one cares  :confused1:

[Guest]

I am saving my likes. I don't want to give them out, putting my likes all over your post and then tearing part of my "like heart" when you post something I can't like, and I must break off my like with you.

 

I will have to ask SWB about whether you are appropriate to like, and we can converse in a group, supervised setting without direct contact. I will be modest and conservative with my words and posts, use my icons judiciously, and will be in the sight of our moderators at all times.

 

If I read one of your posts and feel an urge to like it, I will pray, contact an accountability person, and I will fill my forum time with chatter with others.

 

I only have likes for a short period of time, they are limited and precious and I will protect them. I am going to google in search of a "like purity ring" which can be presented to me at a forum ball in which I commit to not liking any posts before a friendship request and I will only share my likes with that special friend once found and publicly declared.

Nicely done! Lol!

[*Lulu*]

I still have likes left. I don't know what I'm doing wrong! :D

 

Nooooo- don't let the likes die!

[Gentlemommy]

I am saving my likes. I don't want to give them out, putting my likes all over your post and then tearing part of my "like heart" when you post something I can't like, and I must break off my like with you.

 

I will have to ask SWB about whether you are appropriate to like, and we can converse in a group, supervised setting without direct contact. I will be modest and conservative with my words and posts, use my icons judiciously, and will be in the sight of our moderators at all times.

 

If I read one of your posts and feel an urge to like it, I will pray, contact an accountability person, and I will fill my forum time with chatter with others.

 

I only have likes for a short period of time, they are limited and precious and I will protect them. I am going to google in search of a "like purity ring" which can be presented to me at a forum ball in which I commit to not liking any posts before a friendship request and I will only share my likes with that special friend once found and publicly declared.

 

LIKE!

[FiveOaksAcademy]

I didn't read it that way at all.

 

She was simply saying that it was a refreshing change to see young ladies that were not overexposed in church, nor dressed in an overly provocative way, the way I read it. We all certainly see young people - men and women - who are letting it all hang out everywhere else. She was simply noting that this anomaly was welcome in this case, and that she noticed, and appreciated their failure/refusal to go with the flow in that way.

 

There was no syrupy sweet, evil approach but perhaps you know her personally and know she was being sarcastic? I don't. I am just responding on the basis of what she actually wrote

 

 

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

[bolt.]

I, for one, am not calling her "judgemental" -- I simply consider her ideas (as presented) distasteful, because they are unkind, superficial, disingenuous, unspiritual (in the 1st Corinthians sense) illogical, and mysogynistic (in the sociological sense). As such, I consider them unhealthy ideas for the Church, and am motivated to expose their flaws in order to limit their influence.

 

I *am* a conservative Christian. There is a wide gulf between conservative Christianity and these ideas about women and clothing. They are not religious ideas, and they exist in many cultural settings across religious and a-religious settings. As such, the proper Biblical label for ideas like these is the adjective "worldly".

[Jen in NY]

Not judging her for her conservative belief system. Calling her out on the overall message:

 

If you dress like a hussy, my husband will want you. If you are modest, he will want you even more.

 

Either way: girl's at fault, guy can't control his 'impulses.'

 

Not in my world.

[flyingiguana]

I actually just don't get the original blog post at all.

 

I'm sure churches/Christians/those of many religious faiths WANT the faithful to multiply and reproduce more little faithfuls (otherwise those faiths would probably not be with us any more).  How ELSE are potential mates supposed to find each other if not at the place of worship?  (Given our multicultural society)

 

Given that, a bit of eying during the service is a positive for the continued life of the church.

 

And if bothers the minister that he/she is not being listened to, maybe the sermon needs to be more interesting.  (I know I've snoozed through a lot of them, and it wasn't because of distracting sinful thoughts)

 

So one could blame the minister, not the girls, if eyes are a-wandering.  (Anyone wonder what the girls are looking at?  And thinking about?  Do people seriously believe that girls never have lustful thoughts?)

[SproutMamaK]

Also not judging her for being a conservative Christian, given that I am also a conservative Christian. My vitriol towards her message is based on that fact that posts like this:

- minimize Christ's power,

- are spiritually harmful for those who are its intended audience,

- are spiritually harmful for the person writing it, and

- take random cultural standards and force them upon others as though they had the full authority of the Bible behind them.

 

I find these types of blogs INCREDIBLY damaging to the church as a whole, and THAT is why I get angry about them.

[Scrub Jay]

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

 

Except there has been absolutely NO vitriol shared here for conservative people or moderately dressed people in the slightest.  It's kind of hysterical that you have decided to rewrite what has been written in your mind but then compare it to scientific facts like the sky being blue.

 

[Joanne]

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

Actually, if you look at my posts , you will apart always see that I use the phrase "conservative religion" when discussing issues of modesty, patriarchy, purity, egalitarianism, and exclusion.

 

I think ANY religion that reveres virginity and expects modesty (which always plays out with the expectations on the women elevated) to be inappropriate, damaging and sometimes even abhorrent.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Except there has been absolutely NO vitriol shared here for conservative people or moderately dressed people in the slightest.  It's kind of hysterical that you have decided to rewrite what has been written in your mind but then compare it to scientific facts like the sky being blue.

 

If you say so. 

[Scrub Jay]

If you say so. 

 

If you would like to point out all of the examples you are claiming then feel free to.  Otherwise, I'm sorry, but your accusations about the posters on this thread (a HUGE amount being self-identified as religiously conservative) are baseless. 

 

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Not judging her for her conservative belief system. Calling her out on the overall message:

 

If you dress like a hussy, my husband will want you. If you are modest, he will want you even more.

 

Either way: girl's at fault, guy can't control his 'impulses.'

 

Not in my world.

 

 

I don't agree with the girl's at fault, guy can't control his impulses mindset either.  I never have.  It isn't anything I'd ever teach my sons or daughter.  I DO teach them to be secure enough that they don't have to attract attention in that way and to have respect for people around them and at church.  I do like and appreciate modesty on both sides.  I won't apologize for thinking it is a great thing when people who 'could' choose to flaunt everything or reveal themselves just choose not to.   Honestly, this topic isn't a hot topic for me for the most part, but I just wanted to agree with those that say there is a whole bunch of judgment of thoughts, motives, etc., of the woman who wrote the blog...  It has a real mob feel to it.

[Aelwydd]

Well, I speak for myself. But, I think some of the most beautiful clothes are worn by conservative men and women. Some of the hijabis worn by Muslim women are exquisite. The sophisticated look of some conservative women here in Dallas makes me envious.

 

In short, I have nothing against conservative people's choices to cover various parts of their bodies. Some of them have a much more developed aesthetic than others, but that's personal taste. Just like people who like to show more skin. Some do it in a way that's attractive and others just...not.

 

The point is, my issue is when someone publicly announces that their personal standard of dress should apply to me or others. I have nothing against modest clothing; I just don't appreciate someone trying to spread the word that I'm a slut because I wear yoga pants to Kroger.

 

If some conservative people are feeling judged by that, I encourage them to read what several others who share a similar worldview, are saying. It's disrespectful, IMO, to try to apply one's personal spiritual convictions to others, without regard to their own consciences.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

If you would like to point out all of the examples you are claiming then feel free to.  Otherwise, I'm sorry, but your accusations about the posters on this thread (a HUGE amount being self-identified as religiously conservative) is baseless. 

 

 

No thanks.  I'm not going to go on a 20-minute copy/paste rampage then spend another hour arguing.  Not worth the time.  Good day. :)

[Scrub Jay]

Well, I speak for myself. But, I think some of the most beautiful clothes are worn by conservative men and women. Some of the hijabis worn by Muslim women are exquisite. The sophisticated look of some conservative women here in Dallas makes me envious.

 

In short, I have nothing against conservative people's choices to cover various parts of their bodies. Some of them have a much more developed aesthetic than others, but that's personal taste. Just like people who like to show more skin. Some do it in a way that's attractive and others just...not.

 

The point is, my issue is when someone publicly announces that their personal standard of dress should apply to me or others. I have nothing against modest clothing; I just don't appreciate someone trying to spread the word that I'm a slut because I wear yoga pants to Kroger.

 

If some conservative people are feeling judged by that, I encourage them to read what several others who share a similar worldview, are saying. It's disrespectful, IMO, to try to apply one's personal spiritual convictions to others, without regard to their own consciences.

 

Exactly.  I actually have some hair accessories from Garlands of Grace.  So pretty. 

 

[Mandylubug]

Well, I speak for myself. But, I think some of the most beautiful clothes are worn by conservative men and women. Some of the hijabis worn by Muslim women are exquisite. The sophisticated look of some conservative women here in Dallas makes me envious.

 

In short, I have nothing against conservative people's choices to cover various parts of their bodies. Some of them have a much more developed aesthetic than others, but that's personal taste. Just like people who like to show more skin. Some do it in a way that's attractive and others just...not.

 

The point is, my issue is when someone publicly announces that their personal standard of dress should apply to me or others. I have nothing against modest clothing; I just don't appreciate someone trying to spread the word that I'm a slut because I wear yoga pants to Kroger.

 

If some conservative people are feeling judged by that, I encourage them to read what several others who share a similar worldview, are saying. It's disrespectful, IMO, to try to apply one's personal spiritual convictions to others, without regard to their own consciences.

 

Exactly. I am conservative Christian. I believe women should have enough confidence and self respect to dress appropriately. However, I will gladly state God did not place me as the modest police and I WILL NOT dictate what is appropriate for women to wear. Obviously, since I have no qualm running in compression capris, and wearing a tankini at the pool, I am not the strictest of strict modest and religious of people even commenting in this thread. And that is OKAY. I do not mind the super modest clothing crowd.

 

What I do not like is how is evident that her husband is passive aggressive. He publicly shamed her because she was wearing an article of clothing that SHE LIKED and that HE FOUND APPEALING ON OTHERS. He tells her that he is attracted to other women in public that are wearing these garments to the extent that he just can't focus to exercise. There are multiple issues here. For one, she was publicly shamed. We know this by the sentence where she speaks of eating and picking at the tag of the tablecloth while he nagged at her for wearing these outfits that he has already ordained as inappropriate to her. So, she is sitting there, wearing the clothing that made her feel trendy and then felt belittled and emotionally chose to bow her head while he nagged away. (would you want to see your daughter in this stature in a relationship?!) For 2, in her articles, she claims she has authority of these opinions because her dearest husband has told her so. Therefore, it must be so. NO, women can be intelligent enough to make their own decisions! Thirdly, she speaks as if she has been married for years and is supposedly giving God ordained counseling on these topics. She has been married 6 months. Fourthly, she clearly thinks it is up to women to protect the men from their lust. That is absurd and I refuse to teach that to my girls or my boys. Dressing conservatively as a personal choice of self respect is entirely different than dressing conservatively because you must save the men from themselves. That is emasculating for the men and insulting.

 

I am done. I am walking out of this thread. It was a great thread of fun for a bit. Alas, all the fun as been had and it seems the "fun suckers" have come to beat on their chests, vote down the thread and I am sure reporting it to the moderators because they feel falsely persecuted.

[*Lulu*]

No thanks. I'm not going to go on a 20-minute copy/paste rampage then spend another hour arguing. Not worth the time. Good day. :)

So you would prefer to do a drive by character attack?

 

 

There have been post after post in this thread where people have directly quoted the blog and commented on what they found distasteful about its contents.

 

Is this where the vitriol lies?

 

There have also been many posts that have made light of the overarching themes found in the places the patriarcy movement of modern evangelical American Christianity has infested. Some of us have spent enough time in these church cultures to know their venom in a personal way. If we choose to laugh rather than cry as our way to deal, is that spewing vitriol?

 

Why even post and chide us if you aren't willing to engage in a discussion about the topic?

[Rebel Yell]

If you Give a Women Yoga Pants

she's going to want a ponytail.

If you let her wear a ponytail,

she's going to need long hair.

If you let a woman have long hair,

she's going to attract Bill Gothard.

If a woman attracts Bill Gothard,

the hussy has enticed a godly, helpless man to lust.

If a woman entices a godly, helpless man to lust,

she's going to have to run from those throwing stones.

And if a woman has to run,

She's going to need

YOGA PANTS

 

:glare:

I would say I "like" or "Agree" with this, but I just can't equate Bill G*thard with "godly." :leaving:

 

(and yes, I fully understand the post's sarcasm. I'm joining in. :lol: )

 

[PrairieSong]

I'm jumping in late, but I think that woman is just very young and has been raised with a certain mindset that is certainly not held by all religious people, conservative or not. I don't agree with it at all. I think she is focusing on the wrong things. I hope she will gain some wisdom through the years.

 

I had two friends many years ago who started in on the modesty stuff...skirts only, no makeup, etc. I won't lie and say they had no influence on me. They did. However, I kept wearing makeup when I wanted to, and sometimes (gasp) I colored my hair. The final straw for me was one day when they told me my long t-shirt dress was immodest because, well, let's just say they could tell I was a nursing mother. I was SO EMBARRASSED. Of course this was all said "out of love". I told dh and he was MAD. He said they were WAY overstepping, and that I could wear pants, or a swimsuit, or whatever I wanted. He said, women have bodies. They have curves. They just do. So what.

 

One of these "friends" had told a man at church that he shouldn't wear overalls, not because he was immodest, but because he was not dressed up enough. I wasn't there, but heard that this elderly man was VERY hurt and considered not coming to church anymore. Is that really the message we want to send??? The same friend talked to young women at church about being more modest. I'm sure that went over like a lead balloon.

 

I distanced myself from these women. One left our parish, and the other has changed and is not so legalistic anymore.

 

What about having a modest spirit? What about keeping our eyes on our own plate? It's kind of exhausting being Keeper of Other People's Modesty. No thanks. I would rather look for the good in others, not that I am always perfect at that.

[Rebel Yell]

I am saving my likes. I don't want to give them out, putting my likes all over your post and then tearing part of my "like heart" when you post something I can't like, and I must break off my like with you.

 

I will have to ask SWB about whether you are appropriate to like, and we can converse in a group, supervised setting without direct contact. I will be modest and conservative with my words and posts, use my icons judiciously, and will be in the sight of our moderators at all times.

 

If I read one of your posts and feel an urge to like it, I will pray, contact an accountability person, and I will fill my forum time with chatter with others.

 

I only have likes for a short period of time, they are limited and precious and I will protect them. I am going to google in search of a "like purity ring" which can be presented to me at a forum ball in which I commit to not liking any posts before a friendship request and I will only share my likes with that special friend once found and publicly declared.

 

Nope, sorry!  SWB is a female, and so are you.  You'll have to have your husband, father, son, brother, uncle, or some other male to approach HER husband and ask permission first.

 

:rofl:

 

[Rebel Yell]

Also not judging her for being a conservative Christian, given that I am also a conservative Christian. My vitriol towards her message is based on that fact that posts like this:

 

- minimize Christ's power,

- are spiritually harmful for those who are its intended audience,

- are spiritually harmful for the person writing it, and

- take random cultural standards and force them upon others as though they had the full authority of the Bible behind them.

 

I find these types of blogs INCREDIBLY damaging to the church as a whole, and THAT is why I get angry about them.

 

:iagree: :hurray:

[Jen in NY]

 

 

"Dressing conservatively as a personal choice of self respect is entirely different than dressing conservatively because you must save the men from themselves. That is emasculating for the men and insulting."

 

:iagree:, Mandylubug.

 

 

[sunflowerlady]

This thread brought back a memory from when I read Debi Pearl's book "Created to be His Help meet". There was a story in there which was told from a husband's point of view

 

The couple goes into the church and husband wants to sit in a certain area, but wifewants to go sit behind a certain other family. That family has two daughters (teens I guess) who dress "immodestly". The husband did not want to sit there because the girls distract him. Guess he can't tell the wife this, so they end up sitting behind this family and the husband outright admits in the story that he sat there having dirty thoughts about the girls.

 

I don't recall for sure,but it might have been in a section about making sure you give your dh plenty of tea. If that is the case, then the wife as well as the girls were all at fault for causing him to stumble.

 

I threw the book away long ago, but sometimes I wish I had kept it for reference purposes when having these types of discussions.

[SKL]

Yeah, I don't understand the vitriol against the blog post.  I do understand almost everyone disagreeing with it.  I understand most people viewing the author as a naive or immature person.  But I don't understand why any of that should make anyone angry. 

 

I mean, it's an obscure blog post that most people will never see except in the present type of context ("look how crazy this woman is").  It has no power to hurt us or our daughters, unless we know that lady personally and attend her church.

 

People have ideas we disagree with.  Some blog about them.  So what?

[Mrs Mungo]

Yeah, I don't understand the vitriol against the blog post. I do understand almost everyone disagreeing with it. I understand most people viewing the author as a naive or immature person. But I don't understand why any of that should make anyone angry.

 

I mean, it's an obscure blog post that most people will never see except in the present type of context ("look how crazy this woman is"). It has no power to hurt us or our daughters, unless we know that lady personally and attend her church.

 

People have ideas we disagree with. Some blog about them. So what?

Did you miss the bit about her attending homeschool conferences as a representative? You might not homeschool, but many of us do.

 

She can blog about her ideas all day long. People here can find them hurtful or damaging or misogynistic or whatever they want. If other people don't want to talk about it, then they should go start a thread about something else.

[Guest]

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

 

I'm of the conservative Christian belief system and I can understand one huge reason why everyone was turned off.  Her attitude in some of her posts was very condescending.  I picked up on it right away.  Do you really not see it?  I understand your need to defend her.  I defended some of her ideas.  I just don't condone her attitude and I don't appreciate her judgement on women who wear yoga pants.  Most women DO wear yoga pants.  Do you not or have you not ever?  I even gave her the benefit of the doubt by thinking maybe she meant certain leggings or tights that I saw when I googled yoga pants. The other issue I have is that she is hypocritical in her choice of a wedding gown.  It's more revealing than yoga pants.

[TeacherZee]

They'd be perfect for my gnome army I am assembling! 

 

 

 

I think if we strategically place hussy fighting garden gnomes in each yard, we can systematically eliminate all threats one jogger at a time. The fear will trickle down through society.

 

I'm late but these two posts require this video

 

http://youtu.be/E1kwGtl21bs

Edited October 17, 2014 by Susan Wise Bauer
Photo removed.

[myfunnybunch]

Why even post and chide us if you aren't willing to engage in a discussion about the topic?

 

This.

Healthy discussion occurs when people are willing to engage. It shuts down when people are only willing to chastise without supporting their argument. I've appreciated the posts from the posters who visited this thread to say, "I didn't see what you saw in that blog post, and here's why," even though I disagreed.

 

Cat

[Guest]

So you would prefer to do a drive by character attack?

 

 

There have been post after post in this thread where people have directly quoted the blog and commented on what they found distasteful about its contents.

 

Is this where the vitriol lies?

 

There have also been many posts that have made light of the overarching themes found in the places the patriarcy movement of modern evangelical American Christianity has infested. Some of us have spent enough time in these church cultures to know their venom in a personal way. If we choose to laugh rather than cry as our way to deal, is that spewing vitriol?

 

Why even post and chide us if you aren't willing to engage in a discussion about the topic?

 

This reminds me of the time I decided to try out a new church (on my own).  I went in, modestly dressed.  Slacks and a nice shirt.  I realized right after I got there that all the women were wearing either skirts or dresses.  The pastor spent almost the entire sermon preaching against the immodesty of women wearing pants like men.  I wanted to sink through the floor, I was so embarrassed.  There was also a young teenager in pants and I felt so badly for her, as I knew she must have felt like I did.  At least I was old enough to know this was wrong.  I hope she did, too.  I'm still angry about that day. This rule is man-made... classic example of someone twisting the Bible to get what they want out of it.  

 

This is what her blog post reminded me of.  

[Catwoman]

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

  

No thanks.  I'm not going to go on a 20-minute copy/paste rampage then spend another hour arguing.  Not worth the time.  Good day. :)

Is "vitriol" the new WTM buzzword? :glare:

 

If you actually took the time to read the thread, which quite clearly you did not, you would realize that you are entirely mistaken in your assumptions about the posts on this thread.

 

But obviously, it's easier to play the persecution card and claim that an entire religious belief system is being attacked, than to pay a bit of attention to what was really being said here.

 

And as I have said to a few others, perhaps you should read several more of that woman's blog posts before you pass judgment against those of us who find her message and attitude unappealing.

[sunflowerlady]

Sorry, messed up this post. Nothing to see here.:)

[Guest]

I'm jumping in late, but I think that woman is just very young and has been raised with a certain mindset that is certainly not held by all religious people, conservative or not. I don't agree with it at all. I think she is focusing on the wrong things. I hope she will gain some wisdom through the years.

 

I had two friends many years ago who started in on the modesty stuff...skirts only, no makeup, etc. I won't lie and say they had no influence on me. They did. However, I kept wearing makeup when I wanted to, and sometimes (gasp) I colored my hair. The final straw for me was one day when they told me my long t-shirt dress was immodest because, well, let's just say they could tell I was a nursing mother. I was SO EMBARRASSED. Of course this was all said "out of love". I told dh and he was MAD. He said they were WAY overstepping, and that I could wear pants, or a swimsuit, or whatever I wanted. He said, women have bodies. They have curves. They just do. So what.

 

One of these "friends" had told a man at church that he shouldn't wear overalls, not because he was immodest, but because he was not dressed up enough. I wasn't there, but heard that this elderly man was VERY hurt and considered not coming to church anymore. Is that really the message we want to send??? The same friend talked to young women at church about being more modest. I'm sure that went over like a lead balloon.

 

I distanced myself from these women. One left our parish, and the other has changed and is not so legalistic anymore.

 

What about having a modest spirit? What about keeping our eyes on our own plate? It's kind of exhausting being Keeper of Other People's Modesty. No thanks. I would rather look for the good in others, not that I am always perfect at that.

 

That's so sad.  I'm sorry you went through that and I feel so sad for the old man at church, too.   :(

 

The church that embarrassed me had the same way of thought... you had to be really dressed up, too.  What about people who can't afford to buy the fancy clothing?  Do they think God is concerned with how fancy our clothes are when we go to church?  Come on people, have you actually READ your Bibles?!

[myfunnybunch]

 But I don't understand why any of that should make anyone angry. 

 

It's not this one person. It's not this one blog post. It's the perpetuation of the ideas in the blog post.

 

Ugly ideas should be challenged ever time they rear their heads. They're like weeds. If you leave one little tiny not-so-big-a-deal  bless-its-heart dandelion in the corner of the yard, next thing you know those little seeds are flying all over and the yard is covered with dandelions.

 

Cat

 

[Mandylubug]

I'm late but these two posts require this video

 

 

RISE UP MY GNOMIES!

[Firefly]

The couple goes into the church and husband wants to sit in a certain area, but wifewants to go sit behind a certain other family. That family has two daughters (teens I guess) who dress "immodestly". The husband did not want to sit there because the girls distract him. Guess he can't tell the wife this, so they end up sitting behind this family and the husband outright admits in the story that he sat there having dirty thoughts about the girls.

 

I don't recall for sure,but it might have been in a section about making sure you give your dh plenty of tea. If that is the case, then the wife as well as the girls were all at fault for causing him to stumble.

 

Ew.  That makes my skin crawl.  :ack2:

 

 

I mean, it's an obscure blog post that most people will never see except in the present type of context ("look how crazy this woman is").  It has no power to hurt us or our daughters, unless we know that lady personally and attend her church.

 

 

It most certainly DOES hurt our daughters, as it perpetuates the idea that women are responsible for a man's lack of control.

[*Lulu*]

It's not this one person. It's not this one blog post. It's the perpetuation of the ideas in the blog post.

 

Ugly ideas should be challenged ever time they rear their heads. They're like weeds. If you leave one little tiny not-so-big-a-deal bless-its-heart dandelion in the corner of the yard, next thing you know those little seeds are flying all over and the yard is covered with dandelions.

 

Cat

 

Exactly.

 

The ideas this of blogger, Gothard and his ilk, Josh Harris and those who kissed dating goodbye, and those that promote extra-biblical "guidelines" are like poison that has insidiously spread through the American church.

 

My church as a child didn't promote ATI or dresses only but they did embrace the purity movement, and I watched films about the danger of secular entertainment, dancing, tobacco, alcohol and my mother forbid many dolls, books, and movies because of witchcraft.

 

Don't think its poison? Don't think it is damaging? Don't think I have any reason to be so "angry"?

 

I was sexually abused for 5 years within that church. I was shamed for it by the church people who expressed the above beliefs. They used tools like the True Love Waits program and the Bible.

 

Those teachings created an atmosphere where sexual abuse was easily concealed and the victim held as responsible as the abuser. In some ways even more so because not forgiving imediately was a sign of spiritual deficiency.

 

We might be joking around a bit about Yoga Pants Sluts but the harm of these ideas is not one bit funny or overblown. And I have reached a point in my life where I refuse to ignore this when it crosses my path. If this offends....what can I say- the idea that women are responsible for the thoughts of the men around them is offensive to me.

[PrairieSong]

Yes, this!! I will join the others and say that I find a LOT of judgment from those who are calling her judgmental. The vitriol held by many on these boards towards people with a conservative Christian belief system always amazes me! I could almost guarantee that if there was someone from a completely different religion who had a blog about modesty, it wouldn't even get a glance. Oddly enough, it doesn't really make me angry...it is just a truth I've seen, like the sky being blue, grass being green...

I'm a Catholic Christian. I don't identify with the blogger's brand of Christianity. She has every right to believe what she wants, but her post did have a judgmental tone. She places a high emphasis on looks, even commenting that the girls were attractive because they were tall and thin.

 

One comment that I found creepy: "Thank you for preserving your beauty for better eyes than the ones behind you today."

 

She was talking about the young man whose soul she is very concerned about, who was also sitting behind the "pretty girls". Wow, "better eyes than the ones behind you today"??? How does she know the state of another person's soul? If she doesn't know him, she would have no clue. If she does know him and he has shared struggles with her, well then why in the world is she sharing it on her blog? Doesn't she realize he might see it? I have been on the other end of that brand of judgment. I still remember the sting.

 

IMHO, better to keep your focus on yourself and your own thoughts and prayers and actions, and not on what others or wearing, or what you "know" they are thinking, and certainly not on the state of their souls. That in itself can be a struggle, to not judge, but well worth the effort.

[SKL]

This reminds me of the time I decided to try out a new church (on my own).  I went in, modestly dressed.  Slacks and a nice shirt.  I realized right after I got there that all the women were wearing either skirts or dresses.  The pastor spent almost the entire sermon preaching against the immodesty of women wearing pants like men.  I wanted to sink through the floor, I was so embarrassed.  There was also a young teenager in pants and I felt so badly for her, as I knew she must have felt like I did.  At least I was old enough to know this was wrong.  I hope she did, too.  I'm still angry about that day. This rule is man-made... classic example of someone twisting the Bible to get what they want out of it.  

 

This is what her blog post reminded me of.  

 

My friends' parents moved a bit south and became holy rollers after a not-so-holy earlier life.  Of course their kids, same age as me and my sibs, had to participate.  Once we visited them for a weekend and they asked us to come to church with them.  (We attended church weekly in our home town.)  We had not packed church clothes, but I borrowed a dressy pant suit.  As the pastor greeted us, he looked at me and said, "you will wear a dress next time, right?"  For me it was merely an eyeroll moment, something to laugh about later.  Ironically, the dress my same-age guest wore was not what I'd call modest, and she ended up having 5 out-of-wedlock pregnancies (the first at 16) and landed in jail at least once.  But because she didn't come to church in pants, she was more acceptable in that church than I was.

 

It is curious to me that some people choose to participate in organizations like that, when a brief glance around them would prove that they have the cause-effect theory all wrong.  But no, I don't think it's a national crisis.  Nothing to get my blood pressure up.  Because my own girls will have the choice to not participate.

[mommaduck]

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:   It is clear to me she doesn't even know what the standard should be.  I guess it's whatever her DH's whims are that particular day.  I guess he doesn't find open toe stilettos hot because this is the logo for the blog along with the tag "finding grace in red high heels" (see below, scroll right).  Truly, I feel sad for this young woman.  She seems misguided at best.  I cannot imagine not only having the mental energy to put thought into someone else's appearance at church and how it *might* be perceived by a young man there, and then take the time to blog about it.  The other things she has displayed on her blog could EASILY be labelled as unmodest by others.  Red velvet open toe stilettos?  Really?  And pony tails, t-shirts, and yoga pants are a problem?  She seems way obsessed on this topic. 

 

FTR - I actually dress very modestly on a day to day basis by choice.  I would not want to be called out on it by strangers.  I'm glad she didn't have a chance to approach those young woman at church.

 

Oh my goodness! THOSE SHOES! They would have been considered very sinful in my IFB church growing up. In fact, I do believe that it's in the Gothard manuals that open toed shoes, especially heels, are supposed to be seductive. Open toed means you are trying to be sexy and loose. Heels like that, rather than conservative pumps, are supposed to push your tush up...again, sex appeal. And then red on top of it. (btw, those shoes are gorgeous! I just don't wear heels like that)

[SKL]

It most certainly DOES hurt our daughters, as it perpetuates the idea that women are responsible for a men's lack of control.

 

No, it informs us that there are people who think that way.  It does not "perpetuate the idea" except within the very small group who already think that way.  And even in such groups, young girls have brains and they can see reality for what it is sooner or later.

 

Covering up one's skin to please one's parents and their church is not going to hurt anyone.  It's not that much different from wearing a uniform to school.  It does not prevent girls from thinking for themselves and making their own rational decisions when they are older.

 

My parents told me all kinds of things I never believed.  The brain is a wonderful thing.

[Firefly]

No, it informs us that there are people who think that way.  It does not "perpetuate the idea" except within the very small group who already think that way.  And even in such groups, young girls have brains and they can see reality for what it is sooner or later.

 

Covering up one's skin to please one's parents and their church is not going to hurt anyone.  It's not that much different from wearing a uniform to school.  It does not prevent girls from thinking for themselves and making their own rational decisions when they are older.

 

My parents told me all kinds of things I never believed.  The brain is a wonderful thing.

 

 

I'm taking about the idea it gives MEN.

[BrookValley.]

That's so sad.  I'm sorry you went through that and I feel so sad for the old man at church, too.   :(

 

The church that embarrassed me had the same way of thought... you had to be really dressed up, too.  What about people who can't afford to buy the fancy clothing?  Do they think God is concerned with how fancy our clothes are when we go to church?  Come on people, have you actually READ your Bibles?!

 

Your post reminded me of something I've wanted to ask since this thread started (but haven't because I've been reading from my phone; didn't want to type it all out on the teensy screen...).  Isn't modesty (in a biblical sense) more about not being...oh, what's the word I want. Worldy? Is that right? What I'm envisioning when I think about a modest person is someone who doesn't flaunt what they have, whatever that may be. For example, a person with significant material wealth would be modest if they went about every day life without flaunting that wealth. Things like that.

 

Someone will have to enlighten me, because I'm not Christian, but this is the idea of "modesty" that I have. Like my Mennonite neighbors--yes, they dress "modestly" in that they dress very conservatively, but they are very modest people. Some of them are very successful financially, but they live their lives no different than the other members of their community.  Anyhow, that is what I think of when I think about modesty in a Christian/biblical sense, and I could apply that idea to things other than monetary wealth, but that's an easy example.

 

So, when I read this woman's blog, one of my first reactions was--in addition to just being grossed out by quite a bit of it--was that she was a total hypocrite. She goes on and on about modesty, but at the same time is so very concerned with being trendy and fashionable and conventionally beautiful. To me, that's not modest at all. Not that there is anything wrong with dressing fashionably or being conventionally beautiful--don't misunderstand me there--but to uphold that as if it were some sort of value, all the while shaming those who do not hold those same standards, is pretty vile, IMO.

 

Also, about those yoga pants. Somewhere on her blog she mentions she is an equestrian. Any fellow riders will know that breeches don't exactly leave anything to the imagination. They are very much like compression pants. So....why is the appropriate wear for that sport ok, but the appropriate wear for running/working out/doing yoga not?

 

Again. Much hypocrisy.

[TeenagerMom]

Just wanted to assure people that she was not speaking about modesty at TTD. I went to Dallas & she represented Liberty University & spoke about college entrance, transcripts, CLEP, etc. She did have one session on staying on a path with Christ while in college but she did not speak on any topics about modesty, marriage, etc.

 

TTD did have a Conservative bent (heck Josh Duggar was there) but there were PLENTY of sessions that were about educating your child fir us Christian but secular educating homeschoolers.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is curious to me that some people choose to participate in organizations like that, when a brief glance around them would prove that they have the cause-effect theory all wrong.  But no, I don't think it's a national crisis.  Nothing to get my blood pressure up.  Because my own girls will have the choice to not participate.

You aren't involved in homeschooling circles where this stuff is more prevalent than in the general population. If you don't come in contact with it much, great. But, some of us do.

[SKL]

Clueless.  I'm taking about the idea it gives MEN.

 

Oh, does that blogger have a large male following?  Men are going to be convinced that they have a right to cheat on their wives or molest girls or something because they read that blog post?  I doubt both.

[*Lulu*]

No, it informs us that there are people who think that way. It does not "perpetuate the idea" except within the very small group who already think that way. And even in such groups, young girls have brains and they can see reality for what it is sooner or later.

 

Covering up one's skin to please one's parents and their church is not going to hurt anyone. It's not that much different from wearing a uniform to school. It does not prevent girls from thinking for themselves and making their own rational decisions when they are older.

 

My parents told me all kinds of things I never believed. The brain is a wonderful thing.

The story I posted above took place before the Internet totally changed the ease with which ideas could be disseminated. If you think some the concern in this thread is about one little ole blogger with her head not on quite straight, or that you are somehow immune to these ideas effects because of your ability to reason you may want to reevaluate the situation.

[Firefly]

:confused1:   This woman and her ilk are promoting this idea.  Obviously, she is part of a larger problem. 

[BrookValley.]

The story I posted above took place before the Internet totally changed the ease with which ideas could be disseminated. If you think some the concern in this thread is about one little ole blogger with her head not on quite straight, or that you are somehow immune to these ideas effects because of your ability to reason you may want to reevaluate the situation.

 

 

:confused1:   This woman and her ilk are promoting this idea.  Obviously, she is part of a larger problem. 

 

:iagree:   Yeah. That.