(Controversial content) a letter to girls in the pew in front of us...

[Firefly]

Hearing a different view once or twice isn't so tragic.

 

Hearing it over and over and over and over again, everywhere you go- church, private school/homeschool co-op, youth group if the church has one, from nearly everybody you know- yeah, that is kinda dangerous.

 

Especially when you multiply it by the fact that there is NOTHING you can do to be good enough- you will never be covered enough as long as you are recognizable as female-shaped. And multiply it again by the idea that everything is your fault- both your allowing the world to know you are female-shaped, but also anything a male does wrong because of that fact.  Oh, and also what an evil example you are to all of the younger girls who should be able to look up to you.

 

No anger, no vitriol, just a deep heartbreaking sadness for my girls, and the soul-crushing self-loathing for any part I had in this when I bought into this bullmanure as a new homeschooler.

 

 

 

Well said.  I still maintain that this line of thinking espoused by the blogger is dangerous.  To defend it, in my mind, is defending the indefensible.

[SKL]

My post saying I wasn't angry was in response to this post, not your quoted post:

 

But I did not quote you.  You made an assumption.

[PeacefulChaos]

I haven't been to every church in the world, but I've been to a bunch of them and most that I'm aware of have allowed pants (without any raised eyebrows) for generations.  Most that I'm aware of don't have sermons about how women should dress.  I don't think I'm living in a bubble.

 

But there are still PLENTY who say stuff like 'modest is hottest' and have set forth rules for how the girls should dress for events.  No two piece bathing suits when they go to the water park, for example.  No short shorts.  No spaghetti strap tank tops.  No bare midriffs.

That sort of thing.  I mean, as winter rolls around I wouldn't be surprised if the leggings argument crops up again.  

 

ETA: Oh, and they use excuses like that it's the job of the female to 'not cause their brother to stumble.'  This even comes into play when women talk about breastfeeding in church.  

[Desert Strawberry]

One thing that bothers me about this blogger - other than her judgmental, passive-aggressive attitude - is that while she is preaching modesty, she is openly sharing on the internet very personal information about her wedding night.  'Hey Babe, it looks like you're bleeding' - not an exact quote.  Is that modest?  I would think long and hard before I started sharing personal information about my first sexual encounter on the internet for all the world to read.  And I'm no prude and pretty darn open about sex.  They just seem like two extremes to me.  It's one thing to share personal information of that type with a very close friend, or group of friends, or on a private, closed blog, but this was out there for anyone to read.  I know she's trying to help young women, but it still seems at odds with her views on modesty.  She could discuss sex in general without bringing in personal conversations between her and her husband.  I'm trying to picture older women from her church reading that post???  Also, if she wasn't so preachy about exactly what constitutes modesty and judgmental of women who don't fall into her narrow parameters, then the other post probably wouldn't bother me so much.

 

I'm fairly liberal, but I am older so it might be my age speaking

The more I think about, the more it seems she's playing at modesty, openly demanding it from others,and speaking as if she knows more than she does, while it's not something she has really embraced in her own life. 

I don't think her concern is theological at all. I think it's practical. "If my new husband sees you looking sexy, he will stray. Don't tempt him. Don't trust your husband either, if you have one. I will try not to tempt him with whatever dangerous but seemingly innocuous clothing items my husband deems inappropriate."

[Mrs Mungo]

But I did not quote you.  You made an assumption.

How? I actually ASKED, that isn't the definition of assuming.

[SKL]

But there are still PLENTY who say stuff like 'modest is hottest' and have set forth rules for how the girls should dress for events.  No two piece bathing suits when they go to the water park, for example.  No short shorts.  No spaghetti strap tank tops.  No bare midriffs.

That sort of thing.  I mean, as winter rolls around I wouldn't be surprised if the leggings argument crops up again.  

 

 

Well I think "modest is hottest" is ridiculous - I've never heard that before today.  (I agree with the comments about hypocrisy.)

 

As for the 2 piece bathing suit rule, I suspect that is based on the fact that some girls have been "pantsed" while swimming.  It is a rule to protect them from having that happen, and it has nothing to do with how modest a 2-piece is or whose fault anything is.  Many 2-piece suits are more modest than 1-piece suits.

 

The other stuff?  I am good with dress codes that discourage short shorts etc.  I won't even get into why because that's not what this thread is about IMO.

[SKL]

How? I actually ASKED, that isn't the definition of assuming.

 

Edited:  Sink's point was countering the inaccurate accusation that I walked into a peaceful thread and injected the ideas of anger and evil where they had not been mentioned before.  I pulled them out of my rear just to make this a more controversial thread.

[PeacefulChaos]

Dress codes are fine. 

Dictating what a girl can and can't wear in her own life are not.

Saying that she has to dress a certain way to protect the boys around her is not.  

Saying that she should be treated a certain way depending on her clothes is not.

 

That's what my problem with that line of thinking is.  A person's value isn't determined by their clothing.

[creekland]

Just breaking in to say I'm pretty sure this has set the record for the longest thread I've missed in my holiday vacationing time...

 

And there's no way I'm attempting to read it all now.

 

Wear what you want IMO!  I know I do.  I haven't worn a dress since oldest son's wedding a year ago June and I've no intention of starting to wear them more often... and I don't think God minds at all!  I know my hubby sure doesn't (and if he did, we likely would never have married as he saw what he was getting into way back then).

[*Lulu*]

I haven't been to every church in the world, but I've been to a bunch of them and most that I'm aware of have allowed pants (without any raised eyebrows) for generations. Most that I'm aware of don't have sermons about how women should dress. I don't think I'm living in a bubble.

Well I imagine none of us have been to all of them.

 

I personally have been to churches of a dozen different denominations as well as Anglican and RC in more than 15 states. I have only been treated to a couple of sermons on women's clothing. Just because your experience has been with more liberal denominations/churches (liberal in that women wear pants) that does not make it universal.

 

This isn't about that.

 

This is about the Bible study where the girls are encouraged to help their brothers in Christ.

 

This is about the sweet older woman who used to teach you Sunday School and taught you the 10 commandments with a song, pulling you aside to counsel you that showing your knees is sending signals to the boys that you are loose.

 

This is about the news getting back to you that your boyfriend's mom thinks you aren't really saved because you wear pants.

 

This is about the girl who was raped being told she was dressed provocatively (in her church clothes, no less) and should ask forgiveness for her part in the attack.

 

This is about the sweet older woman telling the youth girls to "keep an aspirin between your knees or you'll be ruined for marriage".

 

This is about girls having abortions rather than tell their parents they had sex, then crying in bathrooms because there sat through another sermon pontificating on why girls who have abortions are going to hell.

 

This is about the mother who encourages her son not to date so and so because she isn't as Christ focused based solely on seeing her church attire.

 

If that isn't your experience, I get it.

 

I have never been sold into prostitution.

 

It doesn't mean that I am incapable of understanding that it is a real and prevalent problem in the world. It doesn't render me incapable of compassion for those who have lived and are living that reality.

 

Just because I don't see it with my own eyes doesn't mean I can't acknowledge it exists and support entities that work to eliminate it.

[Caroline]

Well I imagine none of us have been to all of them.

 

I personally have been to churches of a dozen different denominations as well as Anglican and RC in more than 15 states. I have only been treated to a couple of sermons on women's clothing. Just because your experience has been with more liberal denominations/churches (liberal in that women wear pants) that does not make it universal.

 

This isn't about that.

 

This is about the Bible study where the girls are encouraged to help their brothers in Christ.

 

This is about the sweet older woman who used to teach you Sunday School and taught you the 10 commandments with a song pulling you aside to counsel you that showing your knees is sending signals to the boys that you are loose.

 

This is about the news getting back to you that your boyfriends mom thinks you aren't really saved because you wear pants.

 

This is about the girl who was raped being told she was dressed provocatively (in her church clothes, no less) and should ask forgiveness for her part in the attack.

 

This is about the sweet older woman telling the youth girls to "keep an aspirin between your knees or you'll be ruined for marriage".

 

This is about girls having abortions rather than tell their parents they had sex, then crying in bathrooms because there sat through another sermon pontificating on why girls who haveabortions are going to hell.

 

This is about the mother who encourages her son not to date so and so because she isn't as Christ focused based solely on seeing her church attire.

 

If that isn't your experience, I get it.

 

I have never been sold into prostitution.

 

It doesn't mean that I am incapable of understanding that it is a real and prevalent problem in the world. It doesn't render me incapable of compassion for those who have lived and are living that reality.

 

Just because I don't see it with my own eyes doesn't mean I can't acknowledge it exists and support entities that work to eliminate it.

 

This is about the next door neighbor calling your son to tell him he shouldn't date that girl who came over to drop off a cake for his birthday in her dance clothes because she was on her way to dance class.

[SKL]

Well I imagine none of us have been to all of them.

 

I personally have been to churches of a dozen different denominations as well as Anglican and RC in more than 15 states. I have only been treated to a couple of sermons on women's clothing. Just because your experience has been with more liberal denominations/churches (liberal in that women wear pants) that does not make it universal.

 

This isn't about that.

 

This is about the Bible study where the girls are encouraged to help their brothers in Christ.

 

This is about the sweet older woman who used to teach you Sunday School and taught you the 10 commandments with a song, pulling you aside to counsel you that showing your knees is sending signals to the boys that you are loose.

 

This is about the news getting back to you that your boyfriend's mom thinks you aren't really saved because you wear pants.

 

This is about the girl who was raped being told she was dressed provocatively (in her church clothes, no less) and should ask forgiveness for her part in the attack.

 

This is about the sweet older woman telling the youth girls to "keep an aspirin between your knees or you'll be ruined for marriage".

 

This is about girls having abortions rather than tell their parents they had sex, then crying in bathrooms because there sat through another sermon pontificating on why girls who have abortions are going to hell.

 

This is about the mother who encourages her son not to date so and so because she isn't as Christ focused based solely on seeing her church attire.

 

If that isn't your experience, I get it.

 

I have never been sold into prostitution.

 

It doesn't mean that I am incapable of understanding that it is a real and prevalent problem in the world. It doesn't render me incapable of compassion for those who have lived and are living that reality.

 

Just because I don't see it with my own eyes doesn't mean I can't acknowledge it exists and support entities that work to eliminate it.

 

I understand these things exist.  I was responding to your implication that they the majority of the church population is OK with this.  I don't think it is.  Yes, some are, and yes, I'm capable of understanding and having compassion for people who have experienced that.  It does not mean I am not allowed to say anything about the topic unless it agrees with your views.

 

 

[SpecialClassical]

You are right. I do believe that modesty as discussed and lived in Christian and Islamic families is inherently and always patriarchal. But I believe the US and Western culture is patriarchal. I realize that I am one of the few in this thread with that perspective.

 

I don't agree (and didn't when I was a Christian) with the generalized commentary about Christians in your post. There are many thousands of Christians who respond to the same verses very differently than you do.

I understand you are talking about a patriarchal "system" that is inherent with these beliefs.

 

I want to address two points.

 

First, I adhere to these beliefs because of my understanding of Scripture. I think the idea that it is so harmfully patriarchal is ironic in our situation. I cannot remember one time when my father, husband, or any Christian male friend commented on my clothing choice. If I ask my husband for his opinion about a particular piece of clothing he most likely will go for more cleavage and shorter hemlines. 😄. Also, my husband has never said a word to my adult daughter about her clothing. From the time she was little until now I can't think of any criticism for being immodest or otherwise.

 

Also, I attend a church in which this modesty view is taught. In our church we have women with long skirts and very high necklines and women with very short hemlines and/or quite a bit of cleavage. The fact is, it is up to each woman to decide. We have young men with buttoned up polos and saggy pants (my own sons have been in both categories.) They are all valued and loved. They all have opinions that are considered. The fact is, in the end it is that person's personal relationship with God that should dictate how he/she conducts himself/herself. Other people can give opinions, but it becomes legalism when others impose their beliefs of modesty upon you. That doesn't mean the teachings about modesty are invalid, it means it is a choice for you to make as you walk in your faith.

 

Lastly, the church we came from years ago was all about "grace" and acceptance. Coming out of that church I was pretty judgemental of others choices. Now I am in a church with more conservative doctrine and I see much less judging and much more love among the members. It is truly full of grace and our congregation is noticed for the uncommon fellowship we have.

 

The word patriarchal gets used so much, but there are distinctions between patriarchal society, patriarchal churches, and patriarchal families. Those distinctions matter and I don't like being lumped in with the likes of Pearl, Gothard, and Farris.

 

Nm

[LucyStoner]

I will never forget being pulled aside at church camp to be told that the fact I wasn't wearing a bra had made "some" (I suspect some=one) boys uncomfortable. Obviously the fact that he was looking at my tiny chest closely enough to see that I wasn't wearing a bra wasn't the problem. The problem was clearly me. Duh. I should wear a bra. Trouble being I was tiny chested enough that I basically only ever wore a bra under my softball jersey and in fact had no bra with me at camp to wear. It was the first day of a week long camp. I was I think 15, possibly 16. A range of "helpful solutions" to "my problem" were suggested, included but not limited to, borrowing a bra from a friend :P . I pointed out that even if I were in the habit of sharing underwear with my friends, I was by far the smallest busted girl among my friends and would have to stuff one of their bras for it to even fit and that seemed worse than not wearing one at all. I offered up a fake solution, saying I would wear a tank top layer if wearing a sleeveless blouse. The woman who was talking to me about it deemed this acceptable. She didn't realize that I was in fact wearing layers like that already and was wearing two shirts at the time this boy was apparently "made uncomfortable" by watching me dance with some friends to some opening night Christian music. My argument that he shouldn't be staring at me that hard was totally glossed over. The fact that I was braless continued to make waves for the entire time I went to that camp (4x a year annually through high school). One year I spent the summer camp not able to swim because they, without notice, changed the rule and said girls needed to wear one piece suits and I again, hadn't brought one (and my two piece wasn't anything revealing either).

[MrsMommy]

I will never forget being pulled aside at church camp to be told that the fact I wasn't wearing a bra had made "some" (I suspect some=one) boys uncomfortable. Obviously the fact that he was looking at my tiny chest closely enough to see that I wasn't wearing a bra wasn't the problem. The problem was clearly me. Duh. I should wear a bra. Trouble being I was tiny chested enough that I basically only ever wore a bra under my softball jersey and in fact had no bra with me at camp to wear. It was the first day of a week long camp. I was I think 15, possibly 16. A range of "helpful solutions" to "my problem" were suggested, included but not limited to, borrowing a bra from a friend :p . I pointed out that even if I were in the habit of sharing underwear with my friends, I was by far the smallest busted girl among my friends and would have to stuff one of their bras for it to even fit and that seemed worse than not wearing one at all. I offered up a fake solution, saying I would wear a tank top layer if wearing a sleeveless blouse. The woman who was talking to me about it didn't realize that I was in fact wearing layers like that already and was wearing two shirts at the time this boy was apparently "made uncomfortable" by watching me dance with some friends to some opening night Christian music. My argument that he shouldn't be staring at me that hard was totally glossed over. The fact that I was braless continued to make waves for the entire time I went to that camp (4x a year annually through high school). One year I spent the summer camp not able to swim because they, without notice, changed the rule and said girls needed to wear one piece suits and I again, hadn't brought one (and my two piece wasn't anything revealing either).

 

That's gross. Staring boy should have been the one to be reprimanded, not you. And he was so bothered about it that he actually brought it to an adult's attention? Just ick.

[Shahrazad]

Modest may actually be hottest...temperature wise ;) Glad I don't live in Florida anymore.

[SKL]

That's gross. Staring boy should have been the one to be reprimanded, not you. And he was so bothered about it that he actually brought it to an adult's attention? Just ick.

 

Yeah, I'd like to know how anyone knew that boy was uncomfortable looking at a female body in a co-ed camp?  Perhaps he was overheard talking trash with his buddies later?

 

Why wasn't the annual joke about the boy who couldn't handle seeing evidence of breasts?

 

I think you should facebook friend that man and ask him if he's gotten over the trauma yet.  :P

[LucyStoner]

That's gross. Staring boy should have been the one to be reprimanded, not you. And he was so bothered about it that he actually brought it to an adult's attention? Just ick.

I know, right?

 

Even if I had been well endowed my underwear is my own business and I was probably a lot more conservatively dressed than one might imagine. I have a picture taken from that camp where I am wearing a turtle neck, a wool cardigan and a green head scarf. It doesn't show in the picture but my lower half was most likely an ankle length skirt and combat boots. That was a somewhat typical level of clothing for a grunge era Seattle chick. But alas, no bra means I'm in the wrong, right?

[creekland]

That's gross. Staring boy should have been the one to be reprimanded, not you. And he was so bothered about it that he actually brought it to an adult's attention? Just ick.

 

I'd seriously doubt there was a staring boy.  Chances are there were staring adults (either or both genders) using "boy" as a convenient excuse, but very doubtful about staring boys IMO.

 

I work in a public high school.  Boys only notice clothing issues with girls when there's something to notice.  Then they tell their friends, not adults who might "correct" the situation to fit the dress code.  

[HRAAB]

Was anyone else ever taught that modesty didn't just concern the amount and coverage of the clothes you wore, but also concerned the words you spoke and wrote, your actions and behavior?  Drawing attention to yourself by flaunting your intellect, talents, riches or by assuming authority that isn't naturally yours?  Presuming to instruct your peers from a position of presumed superiority?  Being a little too full of yourself?

 

I think the blogger needs a broader definition of modesty.

 

eta:  A definition of modesty that can be equally applied to both genders.

[LucyStoner]

I'd seriously doubt there was a staring boy. Chances are there were staring adults (either or both genders) using "boy" as a convenient excuse, but very doubtful about staring boys IMO.

 

I work in a public high school. Boys only notice clothing issues with girls when there's something to notice. Then they tell their friends, not adults who might "correct" the situation to fit the dress code.

I was there for 6 more days and went to camp with the same group for 5 years- I had a pretty good idea of just who would do something like that. There was one guy who so would have done that, one from a very messed up family. His sister once loudly complained that I was holding hands with my girl friends (as in friends who were girls, not anything more interesting). It was a strange blend of kids from very conservative and very progressive families.

 

Somehow I had gained a totally baseless "reputation" at camp. I laughed it off but it was totally unacceptable and obnoxious. It also made me an object of interest among some of the more naive and less savvy male campers. A small but loud group of the kids from rural areas were convinced that all of the kids from the city with grunge clothing were all having sex and doing drugs. Which couldn't have been further from the truth. :P

[Joanne]

I understand you are talking about a patriarchal "system" that is inherent with these beliefs.

 

I want to address two points.

 

First, I adhere to these beliefs because of my understanding of Scripture. I think the idea that it is so harmfully patriarchal is ironic in our situation. I cannot remember one time when my father, husband, or any Christian male friend commented on my clothing choice. If I ask my husband for his opinion about a particular piece of clothing he most likely will go for more cleavage and shorter hemlines. 😄. Also, my husband has never said a word to my adult daughter about her clothing. From the time she was little until now I can't think of any criticism for being immodest or otherwise.

 

Also, I attend a church in which this modesty view is taught. In our church we have women with long skirts and very high necklines and women with very short hemlines and/or quite a bit of cleavage. The fact is, it is up to each woman to decide. We have young men with buttoned up polos and saggy pants (my own sons have been in both categories.) They are all valued and loved. They all have opinions that are considered. The fact is, in the end it is that person's personal relationship with God that should dictate how he/she conducts himself/herself. Other people can give opinions, but it becomes legalism when others impose their beliefs of modesty upon you. That doesn't mean the teachings about modesty are invalid, it means it is a choice for you to make as you walk in your faith.

 

Lastly, the church we came from years ago was all about "grace" and acceptance. Coming out of that church I was pretty judgemental of others choices. Now I am in a church with more conservative doctrine and I see much less judging and much more love among the members. It is truly full of grace and our congregation is noticed for the uncommon fellowship we have.

 

The word patriarchal gets used so much, but there are distinctions between patriarchal society, patriarchal churches, and patriarchal families. Those distinctions matter and I don't like being lumped in with the likes of Pearl, Gothard, and Farris.

 

Nm

Thank you for this discussion and such a content filled, respectful, and on topic response. I disagree with your perspective that the idea of patriarchy is over used.

 

I can't and won't comment on your family, of course! But patriarchy does not have to look like Gothard et al to exist. It is a continuum and as I have stated, I believe modesty teachings are on the continuum somewhere - some more than orhers.

 

I am glad you are in a church that works for you. That is always a good feeling.

[creekland]

I was there for 6 more days and went to camp with the same group for 5 years- I had a pretty good idea of just who would do something like that. There was one guy who so would have done that, one from a very messed up family. His sister once loudly complained that I was holding hands with my girl friends (as in friends who were girls, not anything more interesting). It was a strange blend of kids from very conservative and very progressive families.

 

Somehow I had gained a totally baseless "reputation" at camp. I laughed it off but it was totally unacceptable and obnoxious. It also made me an object of interest among some of the more naive and less savvy male campers.

 

I always say I got the last laugh. All of the teen pragnancies

 

Ok, that makes sense then.  You ended up with a boy on the extreme end of things rather than under the normal part of the bell curve.

 

Some of these things one just has to laugh about and share I think (esp since YOU couldn't do anything about it at the time)!  Too bad the adults didn't come to your aid though.

[Catwoman]

584#...that's what makes me angry

601#...I don't understand the vitriol

The sequence looks clear to me.

I still think we did pretty well if there were only a few angry remarks out of around 700 posts, but if those are the ones to which SKL was responding, I stand corrected.

 

Actually I was agreeing with a prior poster who commented that s/he did not understand the vitriol.

 

Yeah, people posted lots of jokes and silly photos in the thread. It does not change the fact that the OP and some others have consistently expressed what I consider a disproportionate amount of concern over the linked blog post.

 

I may express a minority opinion, but that is my prerogative too.

I think all of us need to remember to use the Quote function when we respond to posts in very long threads, to avoid misunderstandings like this.

 

I never said that I didn't think you should express a dissenting opinion -- I was just thinking that perhaps, like me, you only read the one blog post at first, so you might not have realized what some of our other posts were discussing. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Of course you should post your opinion.

[TranquilMind]

This reminds me of the time I decided to try out a new church (on my own).  I went in, modestly dressed.  Slacks and a nice shirt.  I realized right after I got there that all the women were wearing either skirts or dresses.  The pastor spent almost the entire sermon preaching against the immodesty of women wearing pants like men.  I wanted to sink through the floor, I was so embarrassed.  There was also a young teenager in pants and I felt so badly for her, as I knew she must have felt like I did.  At least I was old enough to know this was wrong.  I hope she did, too.  I'm still angry about that day. This rule is man-made... classic example of someone twisting the Bible to get what they want out of it.  

 

This is what her blog post reminded me of.  

That IS ridiculous.  I honestly would have walked out, rocking my pants.  ;)

 

I once did walk out - but I was sitting in the back - when I was visiting a church, 9 months pregnant.  The Pastor got up and said, "Well, we had a baby last night."  Great! 

 

Then he goes on and on about how "GOD wanted them to have a C-section because that was HIS plan", as if this is God's BIblical plan for birth or something....I kid you not.   Not something normal like, "We are just praising the Lord we had a healthy baby. There were some bumps along the way and a scary moment or two, but we got through it!" 

 

 

I gave my husband, "The Look", whispered, "I will meet you in the car." and left.  He met me right after, no questions asked.  Not the time for me to be hearing about his "God's plan is C-sections" nonsense, any more than the time to talk about "women  in pants"  - when women IN pants is not even the biblical issue, but he was supposed to be addressing immodesty, I presume - is when you have visiting women wearing pants sitting right there. 

[Catwoman]

Well, it looks like we're getting all serious now, and all of the fun is rapidly being sucked out of this thread, so I guess I'll throw on a pair of yoga pants and go do some boring real life stuff. I'll stop back in again later.

 

It was fun while it lasted, though.

[Scrub Jay]

Oh, whoops, I just put on cheap sweat pants.  I'm not following protocol.

[Catwoman]

Oh, whoops, I just put on cheap sweat pants. I'm not following protocol.

GO CHANGE RIGHT NOW.

[Firefly]

Well, it looks like we're getting all serious now, and all of the fun is rapidly being sucked out of this thread, so I guess I'll throw on a pair of yoga pants and go do some boring real life stuff. I'll stop back in again later.

 

It was fun while it lasted, though.

 

 

Well, still whoring here.  There's that!

[TranquilMind]

Exactly. SKL, you don't homeschool and your kids are too young to have been exposed to a great deal of this. You are ignoring our perspective and direct experience. Of course you don't find it dangerous if *you* don't encounter it on a daily basis.

My kids are almost grown, and I haven't been exposed to a lot of this either, despite attending many different kinds of churches over the past 40+ years. 

 

There was a woman at a Baptist Church who ran the women's Bible study who was a bit gossipy and judgmental, but I recognized that as HER issue, not necessarily a "Baptist" issue, even in those far younger days before I had kids.  I remember having a lecture from her directed specifically toward me about how "women" were to aim to have a "gentle and quiet spirit."  I was really in scripture a lot in those days, and I sought out and got an answer on that one almost immediately.  I heard plain as day (in my head) that the point was to have a gentle and quiet SPIRIT (meaning at peace with all), NOT a gentle and quiet PERSONALITY, which is entirely different.  We all have different personalities based on our roles and experiences. '

 

I had exactly the personality I was supposed to have, and also the gentle and quiet SPIRIT.  She simply didn't understand the difference. 

 

Like scripture says, "Whatever you get, get WISDOM". 

[TranquilMind]

Well, it looks like we're getting all serious now, and all of the fun is rapidly being sucked out of this thread, so I guess I'll throw on a pair of yoga pants and go do some boring real life stuff. I'll stop back in again later.

 

It was fun while it lasted, though.

Sorry... I was just catching up from a couple of days ago.  Sorry to rain on your parade with serious answers!

 

:party:   Here is a little happy dance for you, just so you know I am not too seriousl. 

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, whoops, I just put on cheap sweat pants.  I'm not following protocol.

Me too. In fact, the bottoms of mine are unhemmed. I cut them off in a fit of pique after tripping over them (I did mention I'm just over 5' tall?).

[myfunnybunch]

Oh, whoops, I just put on cheap sweat pants.  I'm not following protocol.

 

Eek. I'm wearing a dress.

 

It's above the knee, though, and I wore it while riding a bike.

 

Cat

 

[Scrub Jay]

Eek. I'm wearing a dress.

 

It's above the knee, though, and I wore it while riding a bike.

 

Cat

 

 

TEMPTRESS!!!

 

[Guest]

So how many guys in the Bible actually wore pants?

 

I actually had that in my post, originally, but removed it!  That's what's so funny about the whole argument that women can't wear pants!  

[Mrs Mungo]

Eek. I'm wearing a dress.

 

It's above the knee, though, and I wore it while riding a bike.

 

Cat

[GailV]

Sorry... I was just catching up from a couple of days ago.  Sorry to rain on your parade with serious answers!

 

:party:   Here is a little happy dance for you, just so you know I am not too seriousl. 

 

Have we ever figured out just what those little dancers are wearing?  Looks suspicious to me.

[Joanne]

I am wearing a dress and I have NEVER worn yoga pants.

[Jane in NC]

Have we ever figured out just what those little dancers are wearing?  Looks suspicious to me.

 

Madame, it is the state of your avatar that has me worried.  Has the fig leaf slipped?  ;)

 

[*Lulu*]

Post one of two:

 

If I was a betting woman I would say even if 100 of the hive left her constructive critiques in her comment section only one or two would be allowed, if any. From the snippets I read it is a blog for an echo chamber of a subset of Christendom.

  

Here is the problem (okay one problem of MANY) she doesn't know those girls. She has no real basis for her assesment of the girls' spiritual condition. All she has are assumptions and we know what happens when you assume.....

Praising young ladies for dressing in a way that helps the poor, spiritually deficient, bad man misses the point.

Outer appearance is ZERO indicator of inner beauty.

Maybe she missed the verses that talk about clean on the outside cups and whitewashed tombs?

Maybe if she was more focused on her own plate she wouldn't have the time to congratulate other on putting what she likes on theirs.

 

  

Well, sure. When you've got a blog all about telling people how to do this Christian life thing "right" and you've been an adult all of 10 minutes you've got to pull material from wherever you can.

  

So we have Naughty Vixens with their one hit wonder, B.B. And Free.

Chorus:

So I put my brassiere in the brazier and set.them.free.

Then I shook my flame hot bod and said you can't.have.me.

They will be followed by One Step Closer to Whoredom performing from their album, Yoga Pants Slut.

Including such ditties as:

Pandalicious

Coulattes are the New Nekkid

Don't put your Plank in My Eye

Revolutionary, Evolutionary Hamhocks

I'll judge Your Junk

  

So you would prefer to do a drive by character attack?

There have been post after post in this thread where people have directly quoted the blog and commented on what they found distasteful about its contents.

Is this where the vitriol lies?

There have also been many posts that have made light of the overarching themes found in the places the patriarcy movement of modern evangelical American Christianity has infested. Some of us have spent enough time in these church cultures to know their venom in a personal way. If we choose to laugh rather than cry as our way to deal, is that spewing vitriol?

Why even post and chide us if you aren't willing to engage in a discussion about the topic?

 

[SKL]

I won't wear a dress to church because I don't believe in dressing like the men did in the Bible.

 

(Actually I just plain hate wearing dresses.)

[*Lulu*]

Post two of two:

 

 

Exactly.

The ideas this of blogger, Gothard and his ilk, Josh Harris and those who kissed dating goodbye, and those that promote extra-biblical "guidelines" are like poison that has insidiously spread through the American church.

My church as a child didn't promote ATI or dresses only but they did embrace the purity movement, and I watched films about the danger of secular entertainment, dancing, tobacco, alcohol and my mother forbid many dolls, books, and movies because of witchcraft.

Don't think its poison? Don't think it is damaging? Don't think I have any reason to be so "angry"?

I was sexually abused for 5 years within that church. I was shamed for it by the church people who expressed the above beliefs. They used tools like the True Love Waits program and the Bible.

Those teachings created an atmosphere where sexual abuse was easily concealed and the victim held as responsible as the abuser. In some ways even more so because not forgiving imediately was a sign of spiritual deficiency.

We might be joking around a bit about Yoga Pants Sluts but the harm of these ideas is not one bit funny or overblown. And I have reached a point in my life where I refuse to ignore this when it crosses my path. If this offends....what can I say- the idea that women are responsible for the thoughts of the men around them is offensive to me.

  

The story I posted above took place before the Internet totally changed the ease with which ideas could be disseminated. If you think some the concern in this thread is about one little ole blogger with her head not on quite straight, or that you are somehow immune to these ideas effects because of your ability to reason you may want to reevaluate the situation.

  

Those things were happening loooooooong before the advent of the World Wide Web.

The reason?

The sort of ideas perpetuated in the blog of this woman.

(And found in surprising quantities in your local Lifeway, at institutions of higher learning like Liberty, and in every thread on modesty I've ever read here.)

  

Y'all, I don't normally get upset about threads here, even when I think people posting in them are totally wrong.

This thread has very much upset me.

It has been more than two decades since the first instance of abuse and I STILL am dealing with it.

I have PTSD and physical damage that STILL impact my daily life.

The dismissive tone and the attitude that those sitting in judgement of this blogger's IDEAS are being hypocrites is just too similar to the attitudes I faced from Christians when I first shared about the abuse I had suffered in the church at the hands of professing Christians and *gasp* even a minister.

I'm not coming to this as some saber rattling god hater who wants to trash Christianity.

I am a Christian who knows first hand the harm these ideas can contribute to.

I believe that these ideas are not just unscriptural, but harmful to Christians.

I have every bit as much the right to share my thoughts and experiences as a Christian wife as she does.

Only, in this case, I have a hell of a lot more experience to speak from.

  

Of course you may express your opinion.

You think there is a disproportionate amount of concern about the blog post.

I think there is a disproportionate lack of concern in the American church over the overarching issue.

Just because your opinion is the minority in this thread doesn't make it the minority in the church or society at large. It also doesn't make it right.

  

Well I imagine none of us have been to all of them.

I personally have been to churches of a dozen different denominations as well as Anglican and RC in more than 15 states. I have only been treated to a couple of sermons on women's clothing. Just because your experience has been with more liberal denominations/churches (liberal in that women wear pants) that does not make it universal.

This isn't about that.

This is about the Bible study where the girls are encouraged to help their brothers in Christ.

This is about the sweet older woman who used to teach you Sunday School and taught you the 10 commandments with a song, pulling you aside to counsel you that showing your knees is sending signals to the boys that you are loose.

This is about the news getting back to you that your boyfriend's mom thinks you aren't really saved because you wear pants.

This is about the girl who was raped being told she was dressed provocatively (in her church clothes, no less) and should ask forgiveness for her part in the attack.

This is about the sweet older woman telling the youth girls to "keep an aspirin between your knees or you'll be ruined for marriage".

This is about girls having abortions rather than tell their parents they had sex, then crying in bathrooms because there sat through another sermon pontificating on why girls who have abortions are going to hell.

This is about the mother who encourages her son not to date so and so because she isn't as Christ focused based solely on seeing her church attire.

If that isn't your experience, I get it.

I have never been sold into prostitution.

It doesn't mean that I am incapable of understanding that it is a real and prevalent problem in the world. It doesn't render me incapable of compassion for those who have lived and are living that reality.

Just because I don't see it with my own eyes doesn't mean I can't acknowledge it exists and support entities that work to eliminate it.

  

I understand these things exist.  I was responding to your implication that they the majority of the church population is OK with this.  I don't think it is.  Yes, some are, and yes, I'm capable of understanding and having compassion for people who have experienced that.  It does not mean I am not allowed to say anything about the topic unless it agrees with your views.

 

Pray tell, where did I say that?

 

(All my non-frivolous posts are quoted for your convenience.)

[HRAAB]

I am wearing a dress and I have NEVER worn yoga pants.

 

I don't even own yoga pants, but I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with my bra straps showing.  Black bra straps and hot pink tank top.  It actually makes me chuckle to think of making a man stumble at my age.  Maybe with failing eyesight it's possible.

[SKL]

Post two of two:

 

             

Pray tell, where did I say that?

 

(All my non-frivolous posts are quoted for your convenience.)

 

The last 2 lines of the fifth quote in your 2nd of 2 posts just above.

 

I actually provided that citation before.  It was an edit though, so maybe you did not see it before you quoted and responded to that post of mine.

 

ETA:  see my post 725.

 

[*Lulu*]

I don't even own yoga pants, but I'm wearing shorts and a tank top with my bra straps showing. Black bra straps and hot pink tank top. It actually makes me chuckle to think of making a man stumble at my age. Maybe with failing eyesight it's possible.

I made a man stumble at church this week-

 

 

He tripped straight over size 10 feet! :P

[myfunnybunch]

TEMPTRESS!!!

 

 

Well, in my defense, I also did yardwork in my dress so I am all sweaty and gross and I have leaves in my hair.

 

Plus I went and got old. So....not so tempting.

 

Uh oh. Scratch that. Dh just walked by and wiggled his eyebrows at me. Maybe he was just having an eyebrow seizure.

 

Cat

 

[BrookValley.]

Was anyone else ever taught that modesty didn't just concern the amount and coverage of the clothes you wore, but also concerned the words you spoke and wrote, your actions and behavior?  Drawing attention to yourself by flaunting your intellect, talents, riches or by assuming authority that isn't naturally yours?  Presuming to instruct your peers from a position of presumed superiority?  Being a little too full of yourself?

 

I think the blogger needs a broader definition of modesty.

 

eta:  A definition of modesty that can be equally applied to both genders.

 

Yes! This is what I was trying to get across a few pages ago. Thank you for distilling it down and saying it much more succinctly than I did. This is why her entire blog is just soaking in hypocrisy, IMO.

[Shahrazad]

I've made many a man stumble. Try standing behind someone in line or in public in full black with a face veil. When they turn around, 80% of the time, they either jump, stumble, or combine the two. The worst stumble ever happened when I had to stop one time and grab something but I was wearing eye makeup so I put the thing down that covers your eyes too just to run in. Hahaha, the guy in front of me in line not only stumbled but yelped. I can't blame him, with that particular one and with the eyes unexposed, you look almost identical to a ringwraith.

[*Lulu*]

I haven't been to every church in the world, but I've been to a bunch of them and most that I'm aware of have allowed pants (without any raised eyebrows) for generations. Most that I'm aware of don't have sermons about how women should dress. I don't think I'm living in a bubble.

 

ETA the above was mostly in response to this comment by BLA:

 

"Just because your opinion [i.e. that the blog post is not dangerous] is the minority in this thread doesn't make it the minority in the church or society at large. It also doesn't make it right."

I think we could have a vigorous debate over the patriarchal nature of our society. (In fact, it happens pretty regularly around here.) That isn't my intention though.

 

Looking through all I posted again I repeatedly said that I was speaking from my experience across many churches in many states. I also said that this one blog post isn't the danger, it's the bad theology that inspired it. THAT is what is dangerous. And, in my personal experience, is present to one degree or another in a shocking number of churches. The reason is because the THEOLOGY is like a vapor. It slips in and distills throughout the room. If it is just a little the air may make you gag or give youa slight spiritual headache after awhile. But if it is highly concentrated it has the potential to spiritually poison all those breathing it in.

 

We can discuss this all you like, but I would appreciate it very much if you don't take the whole of what I've written and summarize it as me saying the entire church is infested with people pushing patriarchy and all other opinions must be silenced.

[Catwoman]

Sorry... I was just catching up from a couple of days ago. Sorry to rain on your parade with serious answers!

 

:party: Here is a little happy dance for you, just so you know I am not too seriousl.

Thanks!!! I'm feeling better already!

 

Here's a happy dance for you, too! :party: