s/o Duggar/courtship threads - criticism from former courtship advocate

[ocelotmom]

The other day, I read an article on Why Courtship is Fundamentally Flawed, written by a Christian and former major advocate of courtship (he ran a website on the subject). There's also a follow-up Q&A post.

 

This isn't the "Won't their wedding night be awkward?" argument. That doesn't even come up. He still advocates abstinence until marriage. However, his suggestion is, within that context, the other extreme - that we return to "Traditional Dating", where young people casually date a variety of people in a non-exclusive matter, and that this non-exclusivity promotes more chaste interaction and helps teens and young adults develop a better understanding of what they are looking for in a life partner.

 

While I don't agree with the whole thing (I think the idea of the guy being financially responsible for the dating isn't appropriate), I thought it was interesting, and generally made a lot of sense. It was also a bit of a lightbulb moment for me as far as historical context for books, movies, etc. about teens dating in the early-mid 20th century.

 

Though it is a little disconcerting to think of my DS as dating age...

[fairfarmhand]

Yes, I read that article too and did agree with quite a bit of it. He concisely expressed why we think courtship is not a great model for couples and why it is no guarantee of happiness.

[umsami]

This reminded me a lot about my parents who grew up in the 40s.  They too dated a lot…and had lots of "beaus".  I don't know if there was the rule of don't date the same person two times in a row, but exclusivity was frowned upon.   They've been married now 52 years.

[DesertBlossom]

I'm LDS and in our standards for the youth they are not supposed to "date" until they are sixteen. Once they start dating they are encouraged to "group date" and avoid pairing off or dating one person exclusively until they are at least 18 or so. When I was in high school my group of friends often went out on group dates and we rarely went out with the same person more than a couple times.  I only had a few friends that ever had "boyfriends" or 'girlfriends." However, we had a lot of fun dating. I think that's what dating in the teenage years should be-- just a lot of fun getting to know different types of people, learning how to treat members of the opposite sex, etc.

 

While I strongly believe that teenagers should only be dating for fun, I do believe that young adults need to begin dating with a purpose. IMO, there's no point continuing to go out with a person if you can already tell they aren't somebody you want to marry. Not that anyone needs to rush out and get married, but I think young adults ought to be thinking about what they want in their future spouse and date with the purpose of really getting to know a person.

 

I was 23 when I got married and while DH and I were dating I was 600 miles away from my family at college. I had only had a couple "serious" relationships before meeting DH. But I absolutely can not imagine "courting" under the watchful eye of my parents and not having the freedom to really get to know a person like you do when you are dating.  DH and I waited until we were married for s3x, but while we were engaged we learned to open up to each other, and communicate our thoughts, worries and expectations about marriage and intimacy. I really feel like those opportunities set us up for a successful marriage.

 

[Only me]

The problem now is often if they date more than one person they are looked down on. Even though they are casual dates often someone who dates a lot gets a bad rep. Also many guys and girls get jealous if the other person goes on dates with someone else My 22 year old dd dealt with this recently. She met a lot of guy friends while working at the Disney college program. For instance she went out to eat with one young man (she didn't even think it was a "date". )The following day he posted that he was in a relationship with her on FB. She explained to him that she just wanted to get to know him and enjoyed his company but that she didn't want to be exclusive. She hung out with other guys (again casually) and the first guy got very upset. Right now dd really wants to meet different kinds of people to learn what she is looking for in a relationship. I really like this article and I wish that society would make it easier for kids to date like this. Often it seems like if you go on one date they expect to be exclusive.

 

Edited to add: this is one reason why my 16 year old ds won't date. Right now he just wants to be friends with girls but they want to be exclusive.

[maize]

Also LDS, and this was the general expectation I grew up with but I found that outside of areas with large LDS populations it just was not the social expectation anymore. I basically didn't date until I was ready to start looking for a spouse, the opportunity to date multiple people in a casual way simply wasn't available when and where I lived as a teenager.

[Mergath]

While I strongly believe that teenagers should only be dating for fun, I do believe that young adults need to begin dating with a purpose. IMO, there's no point continuing to go out with a person if you can already tell they aren't somebody you want to marry. Not that anyone needs to rush out and get married, but I think young adults ought to be thinking about what they want in their future spouse and date with the purpose of really getting to know a person.

 

But how is a young person supposed to know what they're looking for in a future spouse if they haven't had the opportunity to date at least a few different people?  Before I began dating, my idea of the perfect spouse was based primarily on movies and books.  It was by dating that I began to learn what I actually wanted and needed in a life partner.  Even dating a person you don't plan on marrying can teach you a lot about yourself and about life.  Only dating if you're considering the person a potential husband or wife is a lot of pressure for a teen.

[maize]

But how is a young person supposed to know what they're looking for in a future spouse if they haven't had the opportunity to date at least a few different people? Before I began dating, my idea of the perfect spouse was based primarily on movies and books. It was by dating that I began to learn what I actually wanted and needed in a life partner. Even dating a person you don't plan on marrying can teach you a lot about yourself and about life. Only dating if you're considering the person a potential husband or wife is a lot of pressure for a teen.

I think you misinterpreted DesertBlossom's post. She was not saying don't date a person unless you think you want to marry them, she was saying that a young adult who is ready to look for a marriage partner should be dating in more than a casual group-date kind of situation, they should be looking to really get to know the people they date--which leads to exactly the kind of learning experience you describe.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I read that article a few days ago. We know a lot of courtship families and it doesn't seem to be working out well. It's too much pressure for the guys, especially the shy ones. Unless the dads loosen up and start to allow dating, I predict that many of the young adults will still be single at 28-30.

[idnib]

I usually try and stay out of these discussions....

 

My parents have an arranged marriage. They met once at a dinner and my dad's sister went to school with my mom but my dad never met her before the dinner. Their marriage was arranged and has been a good one, as have most arranged marriages I know. My parents have been married 46 years. All 11 of their siblings have arranged marriages and they have worked out well. No divorces, good kids.

 

There are many ways to find and love a spouse. The truth is if you marry a decent person from a good family and you have similar ideas about religion, children, and money, you can come to love them. Imagine being stuck on an island with a good and decent person. Would you seriously not come to care about them over the years?

 

I know more arranged marriages than not. The seem to have the same number of highs and lows as any other marriage, but with much lower divorce rates. It's nice to marry for love too. But it's not the only way.

 

:leaving: 

[JumpyTheFrog]

I do have to agree that someone trying to date lots of different people like that might quickly develop a bad reputation. I do like the idea, though, because as someone pointed out in the comments, group dates aren't very helpful for getting to know shyer or more introverted people. And the current culture of having large numbers of exclusive relationships can be a big distraction from school and leads to lots of pre-marital sex. (Even if you approve of pre-marital sex, I think most of us can agree that it's better if people wait until they are 18-20 for it than doing it at 14-16.)

[FaithManor]

Courtship in the strict sense isn't working here. The boys move on to college, trade school, business, jobs etc. They meet young ladies whose parents and siblings are not hovering around treating an adult like a five year old and choose to marry outside the sect. This is leading to a lot of  females never marrying. The interesting phenomenon is that the fundamentalist church that practices this is dying out. The boys marry outside the church and the strictness, cleave to their wive's more moderate family, and do not raise their children in the tradition. For the most part it seems to be single generation church and the numbers are dwindling. We have three fundamentalist, strict courtship churches in the area, one ATI, one that was loosely Vision Forum associated, and one that is IFB but does not advertise association with ATI or VF. All of them are losing their young adult males and have a high percentage of single females pushing 30 and no prospects because there aren't any single males knocking down daddy's doors. A new generation of families who believe and practice as mom and dad do is not appearing.

 

So in the long run, from what I have witnessed which is obviously anecdotal and not a study, I suspect it may not be a sustainable model.

[maize]

ETA woops somehow I quoted myself when I was trying to quote idnib

 

 

The arranged marriages I am familiar with appear happy and successful as well, but they exist within a culture where that is the norm and there is a lot of tradition and cultural support. I am not sure how well the model works when, as seems to be happening within the courtship movement in certain religious groups, it is outside the culture and experience of even those parents doing the arranging.

[JumpyTheFrog]

http://1689nut.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/the-wrong-answer-to-the-real-difficulties-of-modern-courtship/

 

This response blog was immensely better. And the best part of it:

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with much of that post. That man is one of the "daughters are under their father's control until they are *given* to their husbands" crowd. He greatly downplays the importance of compatibility. Not every sincere Christian man and woman can be happily married to each other. I know a whole bunch of devout men that I'd rather be single than be married to. Look at all the threads we have in this forum about men who are slobs or hoarders and how crazy it drives their wives.

[hillfarm]

I have seen only 2 courtship relationships in person, and unfortunately both were disasters. Interestingly enough, the major problems in both were the expectations and interference by a parent, rather than anything on the part of the young couple.

 

My dd is just now reaching the age to date. I had forgotten how traumatic it can be.

[Hikin' Mama]

I'm LDS and in our standards for the youth they are not supposed to "date" until they are sixteen. Once they start dating they are encouraged to "group date" and avoid pairing off or dating one person exclusively until they are at least 18 or so. When I was in high school my group of friends often went out on group dates and we rarely went out with the same person more than a couple times. I only had a few friends that ever had "boyfriends" or 'girlfriends." However, we had a lot of fun dating. I think that's what dating in the teenage years should be-- just a lot of fun getting to know different types of people, learning how to treat members of the opposite sex, etc.

 

While I strongly believe that teenagers should only be dating for fun, I do believe that young adults need to begin dating with a purpose. IMO, there's no point continuing to go out with a person if you can already tell they aren't somebody you want to marry. Not that anyone needs to rush out and get married, but I think young adults ought to be thinking about what they want in their future spouse and date with the purpose of really getting to know a person.

 

I was 23 when I got married and while DH and I were dating I was 600 miles away from my family at college. I had only had a couple "serious" relationships before meeting DH. But I absolutely can not imagine "courting" under the watchful eye of my parents and not having the freedom to really get to know a person like you do when you are dating. DH and I waited until we were married for s3x, but while we were engaged we learned to open up to each other, and communicate our thoughts, worries and expectations about marriage and intimacy. I really feel like those opportunities set us up for a successful marriage.

I'm not LDS, but I agree with all of this.

[Joanne]

I'm LDS and in

 

While I strongly believe that teenagers should only be dating for fun, I do believe that young adults need to begin dating with a purpose. IMO, there's no point continuing to go out with a person if you can already tell they aren't somebody you want to marry. Not that anyone needs to rush out and get married, but I think young adults ought to be thinking about what they want in their future spouse and date with the purpose of really getting to know a person.

 

I

I was going to ask "why" for paragraph #2 and then I saw your opening: LDS. The expectation of marriage is a known quantity.

 

However. Some people don't have that expectation or culture behind us and so dating indefinitely is welcomed.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think the mistake here is a typical newbie/outsider one.  Whether it's Classical Education or Courtship, there's something that makes some people assume that there's only one way to do something-the way they first heard about it.  Since I've been homeschooling since 2000 and did a few years of research about homeschooling before that, I knew there were lots variations on the theme of every new term or idea I heard about whether it was Classical Education or Courtship. What the author is criticizing here is extreme courtship.  There are plenty of other variations that are so much milder. 

 

No, my girls don't do any version of courtship, so I don't have a dog in this fight.  What I do have is enough background to have a clearer perspective . It's not a matter of either or or all or nothing. But then again, we should all have learned that by adulthood in all the other aspects of our lives so applying it to something new shouldn't be very hard.

[DesertBlossom]

But how is a young person supposed to know what they're looking for in a future spouse if they haven't had the opportunity to date at least a few different people?  Before I began dating, my idea of the perfect spouse was based primarily on movies and books.  It was by dating that I began to learn what I actually wanted and needed in a life partner.  Even dating a person you don't plan on marrying can teach you a lot about yourself and about life.  Only dating if you're considering the person a potential husband or wife is a lot of pressure for a teen.

 

I think you misunderstood everything I wrote.  First of all, I said teenagers should be dating for fun.  I said young adults should be dating with a purpose. (I'm thinking 20+)  Dating with a purpose doesn't mean marrying the first person you date. I said that there was no point continuing to date someone that you knew you wouldn't marry which assumes you've gotten to know the person well enough to know you wouldn't ever want to marry them. 

 

In my mind, this is how this works-- you go with a person on one date and if that went well, you go on another... and another... and another. One or both people may decide at any point along the way they are no longer interested in the relationship and it ends. My friends often joked about the "DTR" or "define the relatioship" where at some point the couple opens up about their feelings about the other person. (it was a joke because those conversations we always so awkward and it's hard to put yourself out there and admit you really like someone, especially if you aren't sure of their feelings)  We called it "dating  exclusively" when the couple decided they were no longer interested in going out with other people  Plenty of those relationships ended long before it got really serious.

 

When I got married at 23 I had dated a few guys fairly seriously.  Only 1 other guy was it serious enough where I felt like I needed to ponder and pray over whether or not I could marry him.  I didn't. I went on a fair number of first dates (or 2nd or 3rd) with guys and nothing serious came of it.  And honestly, I don't feel like I dated "a lot" compared to some.  I had roommates that got asked out all the time. I did learn a lot about the kind of guy I wanted to marry throughout my dating experiences. (Like once, this guy walked me up to my front porch and made a comment about how scared he was because the lights were off and it was so dark. I decided then and there I wanted a guy who would protect me if the boogeyman appeared instead of running off! lol!) 

[JumpyTheFrog]

At our former church, the oldest of the stay-at-home daughters is now 30. (Actually, I think I heard she finally moved out and got an apartment and a job.) There have only been a few weddings:

 

1. Couple 1 has been married for five years. It took several men to convince the husband that the wife was a good match worth persuing. I guess he was shy.

 

2. Couple 2 has been married for 4-5 years. He met her at college and they dated, so it wasn't a courtship success.

 

3. Couples 3 and 4 have been married for 6 years. The 30 and 40 something men met their wives online at a dating site for women in the Philipines who wanted to move out of the country. These men married women they barely knew because they were from a super submissive culture. In fact, the first man considered himself bethrothed to his wife before they men. When he flew to meet her, he had promised to marry her, no matter what. I've very concerned about the balance of power in these relationships.

 

4. Couple 4 courted and friends of the wife worry that the husband is abusive. After they married, he began to forbid her from contacting her family. Her parents, who are very into patriarchy, thought it was a good idea and she should obey him. They don't notice red flags. Also, the groom picked out her wedding dress and she wasn't allowed to try it on until the wedding day. I heard it didn't fit well.

 

5. Couple 5 has been married a year and based on my calculations (and a 1 week engagement) got married because she was already pregnant. I don't know if they courted or dated.

[KungFuPanda]

I do have to agree that someone trying to date lots of different people like that might quickly develop a bad reputation. I do like the idea, though, because as someone pointed out in the comments, group dates aren't very helpful for getting to know shyer or more introverted people. And the current culture of having large numbers of exclusive relationships can be a big distraction from school and leads to lots of pre-marital sex. (Even if you approve of pre-marital sex, I think most of us can agree that it's better if people wait until they are 18-20 for it than doing it at 14-16.)

I disagree with this. I don't think it's the girl dating lots of different boys you have to worry about as much as the girl with the steady boyfriend. The longer they're together, the closer they get. It's these girls who are too soon attached and so much 'in love' that are having sex with their boyfriends. I don't think most normal, healthy teenagers are promiscuous, but I do think far too many of them are in relationships that are too serious for their age. I also think it's the girls in these exclusive relationships who really put the pressure on the less serious girls and criticize them for dating around.

[chiguirre]

http://1689nut.wordpress.com/2014/08/16/the-wrong-answer-to-the-real-difficulties-of-modern-courtship/

 

This response blog was immensely better. And the best part of it:

 

A marriage is kept from failure by both spouses loving Christ more than each other, loving one another more than themselves, and living according to the commands of scripture. No amount of “doing things right†beforehand, whether that be courtship or dating, can ever ensure a marriage that endures unless both parties are determined to do things right for the rest of their lives together.

Unfortunately, this doesn't reflect actual divorce figures:

 

A Barna poll (Barna is an evangelical Christian, so his bias would normally be the opposite of his results):

 

 

Variation in divorce rates by religion:

 

Religion % have been divorced

Jews 30%

Born-again Christians 27%

Other Christians 24%

Atheists, Agnostics 21%

 

 

Here's a link to a long discussion of the results, including criticisms by religious leaders (that, unfortunately, seem to rely on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy). There are lots of other interesting insights including the influence of financial stability and regional variation.:

 

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

[JumpyTheFrog]

Oh yeah, another couple courted but the young man was so shy and miserable that the dad suggested they date instead! They broke up after a few months and apparently he is heartbroken. He had been interested in her for years but had never talked to her much until they began courting. He was a "nice Christian guy" so she agreed to court. He was expecting they marry but she hadn't figured out if whe was even attracted to him yet. He probably feels like whe strung him along when really, the whole system created these ridiculous expectations about marrying the first person you have a crush on.

[DesertBlossom]

I usually try and stay out of these discussions....

 

My parents have an arranged marriage. They met once at a dinner and my dad's sister went to school with my mom but my dad never met her before the dinner. Their marriage was arranged and has been a good one, as have most arranged marriages I know. My parents have been married 46 years. All 11 of their siblings have arranged marriages and they have worked out well. No divorces, good kids.

 

There are many ways to find and love a spouse. The truth is if you marry a decent person from a good family and you have similar ideas about religion, children, and money, you can come to love them. Imagine being stuck on an island with a good and decent person. Would you seriously not come to care about them over the years?

 

I know more arranged marriages than not. The seem to have the same number of highs and lows as any other marriage, but with much lower divorce rates. It's nice to marry for love too. But it's not the only way.

 

:leaving:

I do agree with this, mostly. When I was a teenager I had a list of things I wanted in my future husband, many of which were rather superficial.  As time went on I realized that really what I wanted was a good man who was Christlike. When I met DH he just radiated goodness.  I married him just for that. As a bonus, we also happen to have a whole lot in common. ;)

 

 

I do have to agree that someone trying to date lots of different people like that might quickly develop a bad reputation. I do like the idea, though, because as someone pointed out in the comments, group dates aren't very helpful for getting to know shyer or more introverted people. And the current culture of having large numbers of exclusive relationships can be a big distraction from school and leads to lots of pre-marital sex. (Even if you approve of pre-marital sex, I think most of us can agree that it's better if people wait until they are 18-20 for it than doing it at 14-16.)

I think a lot of this depends on your culture. I think members of the LDS have their own subculture, especially in places with a lot of members. Teenagers who go out with a lot of people, without ever "hooking up" isn't looked down upon at all. In fact, it's encouraged.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think a lot of this depends on your culture. I think members of the LDS have their own subculture, especially in places with a lot of members. Teenagers who go out with a lot of people, without ever "hooking up" isn't looked down upon at all. In fact, it's encouraged.

I understand and agree, but most people don't live in areas with high concentrations of LDS members. A lot probably depends on whether a person is dating lots of people from their school or from other places. With Facebook, it's much more likely that someone is broadcasting all the people they've gone out with even once.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

 

:ohmy:

 

I can't even think how to ask the questions. Just -- could you elaborate on this opinion of yours?

[JumpyTheFrog]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

Yeah, but as Joanne so frequently points out, it takes two people to make a marriage work and only one to break it. If a couple marries because they are both Christians and that is all they think it takes, what happens when one struggles with the faith or leaves altogether? If they weren't compatible otherwise, they will probably end up divorced. This isn't a hypothetical - there are people on these boards who are no longer "equally yoked" but have stayed together because they still like each other because they had things in common besides religion.

[FaithManor]

:ohmy:

 

I can't even think how to ask the questions. Just -- could you elaborate on this opinion of yours?

Megalomania, rampant paranoia, psychopathic ideation, mass genocidal murderer....I do not want to even contemplate what his version of "successful marriage" would be, and fail to see how this comment contributes to a discussion about courtship! 

[maize]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

I really don't agree with this. I would not be compatible with any of the guys my sisters chose to marry, even though their husbands are all decent men and their marriages are as happy as mine. Nor can I imagine any of my sisters married to my husband.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Megalomania, rampant paranoia, psychopathic ideation, mass genocidal murderer....I do not want to even contemplate what his version of "successful marriage" would be, and fail to see how this comment contributes to a discussion about courtship!

Science and logic get in the way, when you start thinking about what makes a thing a thing. Properties of Hitler, properties of Mother Teresa, if those essentials are altered will they even be Hitler and Mother Teresa -- this would be a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. :)

[Catherine]

I usually try and stay out of these discussions....

 

My parents have an arranged marriage. They met once at a dinner and my dad's sister went to school with my mom but my dad never met her before the dinner. Their marriage was arranged and has been a good one, as have most arranged marriages I know. My parents have been married 46 years. All 11 of their siblings have arranged marriages and they have worked out well. No divorces, good kids.

 

There are many ways to find and love a spouse. The truth is if you marry a decent person from a good family and you have similar ideas about religion, children, and money, you can come to love them. Imagine being stuck on an island with a good and decent person. Would you seriously not come to care about them over the years?

 

I know more arranged marriages than not. The seem to have the same number of highs and lows as any other marriage, but with much lower divorce rates. It's nice to marry for love too. But it's not the only way.

 

:leaving:

 

I think there are a few factors that account for what you are observing.  One is that cultures that favor arranged marriages are very often cultures that strongly discouraged divorce.  Another is that marriages that last are not always good relationships.  I know many arranged marriages too but the success record in my circle is considerably worse than in yours.  I count success as a long relationship that is not miserable.  Even with that low bar there are a number of failures.  That's not to say I think marriage for love is more likely to be successful...I don't.  It's more that I think successful marriage is probably not going to happen in many, many couples and there are many factors that account for that fact.  In fact I would argue that staying together should not, in every single case, be the measure of a successful marriage.  

 

Knowing that divorce is not really an option is a strong motivator.  Sharing cultural background, and having strong extended family support, is also a benefit, and one that many American families do not have. 

 

[fairfarmhand]

One issue that we're running into is often one of semantics

 

Dating to some means sleeping with someone. Dating around means that you're sleeping around.

 

Dating to some means that you are having a "steady beau." This is exclusivity and romance.

 

Dating in other places means that you went out for a movie and an ice cream cone and had a good time. You could date a different guy each week and still be a moral, Godly young person.

 

There's the dating that teens do. Which could be any of the above scenarios.

 

There's the dating that young adults do which could be any of the above but is more likely to be a more serious looking for a marriage partner type.

 

It seems that in the late 90s Christians tried to redefine dating by calling it something else to encourage young people to be more serious about playing the field.

 

I have a 16 yo. She's gone out a couple times with some guys. We are VERY involved with who she's going with, just like we would be with any GIRLS that she's spending time with. Courting in our area implies that you are SERIOUS about a guy and you shouldn't date a guy until you are SERIOUS about him. But that seems to put a TON of pressure on young people when they should be just having some fun and getting to know one another. I don't expect, however, that trend will continue past her leaving for college.

 

As an introverted private person, I could not get to know a guy by hanging out in groups. My dad tried to push a quasi courtship on my and my dh. Both of us are incredibly private people. This resulted in our sneaking around because we really NEEDED privacy. I hate that and I am ashamed of my sneaking around.

 

[Shahrazad]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

Come on, are you trolling us or what? We're just being punk'd right?

[Slartibartfast]

I do not want to even contemplate what his version of "successful marriage" would be 

 

Less than 48 hours apparently.

[Impish]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

Holy. Old. Cheezits.

[GWOB]

Eh, I'm of the opinion Mother Teresa and Hitler could make a successful marriage, if they both desired to do so.

That's cute. I bet they would make an awesome Epic Rap Battles of History video. Thanks for the laugh! I'm off to make evil cupcakes for my little consequence of premarital sex/not courting.

[Impish]

Simple. If both individuals are committed to loving one another, serving each other to the best of their abilities, communicating clearly and respectfully, and not giving up on one another, you have a solid marriage.

 

Compatibility is all well and good, but no marriage will work if work is not put in. Love is so much more an action than a feeling. The above was just an absurdity to demonstrate the point - the individuals and their qualities matter far less than how they choose to act, think, and respond within the context of their marriage.

 

Great people have made terrible spouses, and milk toast people have had incredible marriages. There is more to it than chemistry, compatibility, and what society might deign valuable or desirable qualities.

 

I refuse the notion that a happy, healthy marriage is just based on the luck or skill in selecting the *perfect* companion. That's nonsense and yet something our culture seems to buy wholesale and teach to our children. So sad.

So, basically, HITLER couldn't have been successfully married to anyone. The whole, evil meglomaniac, sociopath thing he had going.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So, basically, HITLER couldn't have been successfully married to anyone. The whole, evil meglomaniac, sociopath thing he had going.

And then, of course, Mother Teresa was already married, to God, because she was a nun.

[Impish]

That's cute. I bet they would make an awesome Epic Rap Battles of History video. Thanks for the laugh! I'm off to make evil cupcakes for my little consequence of premarital sex/not courting.

I'm eviler than you. I didn't marry the progenitor of my consequence. You be saved, b/c he made an honest woman outta you.

 

I'm a dishonest evil trollop...until Wolf redeemed me. 

 

Like a coupon, I guess. I wonder if that was in the fine print of our marriage licence? "To redeem Trollop, submit one marriage licence, in exchange for Wifedom"

[Impish]

And then, of course, Mother Teresa was already married, to God, because she was a nun.

Oh, SURE, bring the whole, "My first husband is GOD" argument into things.

 

Like anyone could compete with Him.

 

Poor HItler. Not even Mother Theresa would wive him.

 

Perhaps he should've travelled to Padua, instead of trying to take over the world.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

 

And having changed my thoughts and action, my husband having worked on himself as well, I have a beautiful and satisfying marriage. I might be Hitler to his Mother Teresa, but both of us could do our best, love The Lord, and love one another actively and intentionally.

 

 

 

 

I find it boggling that everyone is assuming the worst of what I said instead of just a hyperbolic statement to demonstrate a concept.

This isn't hyperbole. This is a logic fail. We have to assume the worst because with Hitler there was no best. If you were Hitler it wouldn't matter that your husband was Mother Teresa...

 

Why am I explaining this? I'm not even sure.

[mommaduck]

I'm eviler than you. I didn't marry the progenitor of my consequence. You be saved, b/c he made an honest woman outta you.

 

I'm a dishonest evil trollop...until Wolf redeemed me. 

 

Like a coupon, I guess. I wonder if that was in the fine print of our marriage licence? "To redeem Trollop, submit one marriage licence, in exchange for Wifedom"

 

I'm going to sit in Judgement of both of you....I lived up to the Holy Hymen Club Standards. But for some reason, I was labelled the virginal trollop by MIL. It's just too confusing. I think I'm going to try those cupcakes GWOB is working on.

[Impish]

I'm going to sit in Judgement of both of you....I lived up to the Holy Hymen Club Standards. But for some reason, I was labelled the virginal trollop by MIL. It's just too confusing. I think I'm going to try those cupcakes GWOB is working on.

Her cupcakes bring everyone to her yard.

 

Hussy.

[Scarlett]

I usually try and stay out of these discussions....

 

My parents have an arranged marriage. They met once at a dinner and my dad's sister went to school with my mom but my dad never met her before the dinner. Their marriage was arranged and has been a good one, as have most arranged marriages I know. My parents have been married 46 years. All 11 of their siblings have arranged marriages and they have worked out well. No divorces, good kids.

 

There are many ways to find and love a spouse. The truth is if you marry a decent person from a good family and you have similar ideas about religion, children, and money, you can come to love them. Imagine being stuck on an island with a good and decent person. Would you seriously not come to care about them over the years?

 

I know more arranged marriages than not. The seem to have the same number of highs and lows as any other marriage, but with much lower divorce rates. It's nice to marry for love too. But it's not the only way.

 

:leaving:

 

 

Yeah, love is over rated.  :)  I am fascinated by the arranged marriage....I know it can be an abuse of power that really makes life miserable for some women, but obviously that is not how it is always done.  

[Shahrazad]

You could make a point that very different people could heal and improve their marriage. However, your choice of example was what was baffling because whether or not "Hitler" and "Mother Theresa" worked to save their marriage, it wouldn't change the fact that Hitler was a delusional genocidal sociopath which in and of itself would be a barrier to having a successful marriage. I don't know about you but no matter how much my husband and I bent over backwards to preserve our marriage, if I found out he was chopping up people in the basement for funsies, well, "thems the brakes".

As for a less extreme example, I think that telling women that it doesn't matter who their spouse is, they can fix their marriage just through "putting Jesus first" is pretty dangerous. It is exactly that mindset that convinces women to stay with incompatible, unfaithful partners or much worse, with abusive spouses because they think that if they just work on it enough he will quit beating them black and blue.

ETA: Btw, I actually HAD an "arranged" marriage and I still think this is crazypants.

[Impish]

This isn't hyperbole. This is a logic fail. We have to assume the worst because with Hitler there was no best. If you were Hitler it wouldn't matter that your husband was Mother Teresa...

 

Why am I explaining this? I'm not even sure.

Have a cupcake Tibs. Sugar is good, mmmkay? Even Hussy baked cupcakes. Guaranteed not to harm the hymen.

 

Unless they have booze in them. Then, you're on your own.

[maize]

Simple. If both individuals are committed to loving one another, serving each other to the best of their abilities, communicating clearly and respectfully, and not giving up on one another, you have a solid marriage.

 

Compatibility is all well and good, but no marriage will work if work is not put in. Love is so much more an action than a feeling. The above was just an absurdity to demonstrate the point - the individuals and their qualities matter far less than how they choose to act, think, and respond within the context of their marriage.

 

Great people have made terrible spouses, and milk toast people have had incredible marriages. There is more to it than chemistry, compatibility, and what society might deign valuable or desirable qualities.

 

I refuse the notion that a happy, healthy marriage is just based on the luck or skill in selecting the *perfect* companion. That's nonsense and yet something our culture seems to buy wholesale and teach to our children. So sad.

OK, so you are saying any two people with exceptional relationship skills can have a successful marriage. Sounds reasonable. Do you have a magical way to help ordinary people develop these exceptional skills, guaranteed?

 

Most of us mere humans are a work in progress with unique combinations of strengths and weaknesses. A compatible marriage in my mind involves not just commitment on the part of both parties but also a degree of natural complementarity such that the different strengths and weaknesses of the individuals don't drag the whole relationship into chaos. As an example, dh is an orderly, linear thinking kind of guy, very steady in a course he is on but has a lot of anxiety about trying new things. I tend to be more willing to embrace challenges and change, but not to the point of jumping into things without thinking them through. Together we make a good team. If we were too much alike (say, both afraid to make a change, ending up almost paralyzed in life) or too different (if I just wanted everything to be spontaneous, couldn't plan or budget, turning life for dh into an endless cycle of anxiety and stress) the marriage would not likely be successful in any real terms even if we technically stayed married to each other. As it is, in addition to a mostly unified vision and goals we have strengths that compliment each other and weaknesses that are tolerable to each spouse.

[Crimson Wife]

The problem with encouraging casually dating is that in mainstream American society, there isn't the norm for it any more. There is pretty much either hanging out in large co-ed groups or hooking up with all the health and emotional dangers that casual s*xual intimacy poses. The kind of innocent casual dating that I did before DH and that my mom did before her first serious BF in college (who is still friends with both my parents as he's a great guy even if he wasn't my mom's Mr. Right) no longer seems to exist outside of certain subcultures like apparently LDS.

 

I don't believe in the patriarchal, semi-arranged, almost no physical contact prior to marriage courtship model, but I do believe in a "dating with the purpose of finding a marriage partner" type of courtship.

[mommaduck]

 

 

A marriage is kept from failure by both spouses loving Christ more than each other, loving one another more than themselves, and living according to the commands of scripture. No amount of “doing things right†beforehand, whether that be courtship or dating, can ever ensure a marriage that endures unless both parties are determined to do things right for the rest of their lives together.

Curious how you explain healthy non-Christian marriages.

[Impish]

 

Curious how you explain healthy non-Christian marriages.

They don't count. :P

 

Seriously, I've heard that before. If it doesn't happen in a Church, it doesn't count. Which begs the question about consummation...