s/o Duggar/courtship threads - criticism from former courtship advocate

[bibliophile]

Not everyone will agree with you on that. People have very different definitions of "sin."

 

And are you suggesting that Christians have some sort of God-given advantage over non-Christians in terms of their chances of having a healthy marriage?

 

I think that is ridiculous.

 

I understand that not everyone will agree with me.  I agree with you that people define sin differently.  The point I was attempting to make was that we all have times when we say something unkind to a spouse, we may yell, we may be over critical, we may have our moments of selfishness, or make any number of poor choices. These choices affect our lives, the lives of our spouses, and our marriages. We may vow to do better, and we fail again. ALL of us, Christians and non-Christians. 

 

No, I don't believe that Christians have an advantage over non-Christians in terms of marriage. I think that both can have great, healthy marriages. I also think that both can have unhealthy marriages. In fact, a non-Christian marriage can be much healthier than a Christian marriage.

[Catwoman]

I understand that not everyone will agree with me. I agree with you that people define sin differently. The point I was attempting to make was that we all have times when we say something unkind to a spouse, we may yell, we may be over critical, we may have our moments of selfishness, or make any number of poor choices. These choices affect our lives, the lives of our spouses, and our marriages. We may vow to do better, and we fail again. ALL of us, Christians and non-Christians.

 

No, I don't believe that Christians have an advantage over non-Christians in terms of marriage. I think that both can have great, healthy marriages. I also think that both can have unhealthy marriages. In fact, a non-Christian marriage can be much healthier than a Christian marriage.

Thanks for clarifying -- I misunderstood your other post. :)

[bibliophile]

You said that by God's grace both Christians and non-Christians can have happy marriages. I interpret that to mean that God does something (provides grace) to make marriages happier.

 

I'm a non-believer and I have a happy marriage (bordering on blissful in fact). Do you think that God has given us grace even though we haven't asked for it? What would that look like? Would my husband and I have a worse marriage if God wasn't doing something to help our marriage out? If so, why would God be providing it to our marriage and not a desperately unhappy Christian marriage?

 

I believe that God provides common grace to all of mankind. I will use this quote to define common grace: Louis Berkhof, “[Common grace] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men." 

 

This is why the sun rises and sets for all of us, why we have a conscience, police to protect us, medical advancements, etc. 

 

Yes, I think God has given you grace even though you haven't asked for it, just as he has extended the same measure of common grace to all of us.  Yes, life would be more difficult and unpleasant for all of us without this common grace.

 

Why does one marriage look different than another? That's the tough question...and the one that denominations would have varying opinions on. My faith teaches that we are responsible for our actions and the natural consequences of those actions. God is sovereign and all things that come to pass are for His eternal purpose.

[livetoread]

Thanks, Bibliophile, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

 

I believe that God provides common grace to all of mankind. I will use this quote to define common grace: Louis Berkhof, “[Common grace] curbs the destructive power of sin, maintains in a measure the moral order of the universe, thus making an orderly life possible, distributes in varying degrees gifts and talents among men, promotes the development of science and art, and showers untold blessings upon the children of men." 

 

This is why the sun rises and sets for all of us, why we have a conscience, police to protect us, medical advancements, etc. 

 

Yes, I think God has given you grace even though you haven't asked for it, just as he has extended the same measure of common grace to all of us.  Yes, life would be more difficult and unpleasant for all of us without this common grace.

 

Why does one marriage look different than another? That's the tough question...and the one that denominations would have varying opinions on. My faith teaches that we are responsible for our actions and the natural consequences of those actions. God is sovereign and all things that come to pass are for His eternal purpose.

 

:iagree: I just explained common grace and special grace to my kids.   For some reason, common grace and its realities make me love God even more.  How kind he is to those who don't even acknowledge Him as God and also to those who do.  None of us deserve His grace, but He offers it nonetheless.  "You are good, you are good, when there's nothing good in me.  You are love, you are love on display for all to see..."

[FiveOaksAcademy]

The problem with encouraging casually dating is that in mainstream American society, there isn't the norm for it any more. There is pretty much either hanging out in large co-ed groups or hooking up with all the health and emotional dangers that casual s*xual intimacy poses. The kind of innocent casual dating that I did before DH and that my mom did before her first serious BF in college (who is still friends with both my parents as he's a great guy even if he wasn't my mom's Mr. Right) no longer seems to exist outside of certain subcultures like apparently LDS.

 

I don't believe in the patriarchal, semi-arranged, almost no physical contact prior to marriage courtship model, but I do believe in a "dating with the purpose of finding a marriage partner" type of courtship.

 

THIS!!!  This is the approach we have taken, and so far it has been a good choice for us.  When under 18, we involved ourselves a lot more.  Now that our oldest is college age, the years of discussions, guidance, prayer, and this child deciding what character qualities she desired in a boy, have been a great combination.  She is free to make her own choices, but she has made the choice to find out about guys that are interested in her before going on a date.  She is known for being nobody's fool.  One guy was adored by many, was in a leadership position, but she observed that he was a player and pursued 4 or 5 girls at a time.  He was NOT happy when she decided to have nothing to do with him.  Love that girl!!!  Prayer has been key.  Things may change from child to child, based on God's leading for that child.  

 

I vehemently disagree with forcing a daughter to stay home with the dad having complete control over her life.  I just don't think that is the one-anothering that Jesus was talking about.   

[FiveOaksAcademy]

Not everyone will agree with you on that. People have very different definitions of "sin."

 

And are you suggesting that Christians have some sort of God-given advantage over non-Christians in terms of their chances of having a healthy marriage?

 

I think that is ridiculous.

 

I don't think she was saying that at. all!!  It didn't look anything like it!  :confused1:

[Catwoman]

I don't think she was saying that at. all!!  It didn't look anything like it!  :confused1:

You're right -- she wasn't! :) She explained what she meant in a later post and I thanked her for clarifying.