Santa Barbara shooting

[Mrs Mungo]

I should have been more specific. This case, there are journals, videos, creeped-out people, actual crimes, all of that "trail" leading to tragedy. I meant to speak more generally about when this happens and nobody knows anything, but the cries of "Bad parenting! Aspergers! Homeschooled! Video games!" start up right away.

I agree completely.

[Nart]

Were his parents financially supporting him? I would assume so since he had a BMW and money to buy guns. If they were supporting him, and co-signed for his apartment they could have told the police to search his apartment. What triggered his therapist to call his mom and not the police? Did he sign a release of information so that the therapist could speak to his mother, or did he threaten violence against his mother and then the therapist had a legal duty to inform his mother that she was threatened? 

[albeto.]

When things like this happen, it is so tempting to try to place blame (mental illness, access to weapons, religion, etc.). It makes everyone feel like they are "doing something to help".

 

But as long as there are people in the world, there is no way to stop stuff like this. Some people can be pretty shitty. That is just a fact.

 

I disagree. Knowledge is power. With information, we know how to predict likely events and can take measures to avoid them if unwanted. Knowledge about physiology helps us to address the needs of the individual with an ailment. Informations helps us prevent known ailments. Knowledge about mental health (not disorders, but health in general) helps us to address the needs of the individual. Information helps us prevent known trauma. There isn't nearly enough attention spent on mental health and I think it's because of an erroneous but conventional belief that one's mind is somehow separated from their physical being. In other words, one has free control over thoughts, impulses, desires, hopes and fears. Some have more control than others, but the mind is still a product of the physical - the brain. It's an enormously complex system, and shrugging our shoulders and saying "tsk, tsk, nothing can be done," is unethical in my opinion. I mean this statement to reflect society's collective opinion, Moxie, not yours personally. I think yours is a symptom of hearing the collective groupthink and assuming it's true.  

[Mrs Mungo]

I completely agree that we need to do something.  I don't agree with your other information - there are mass killings and many unrecorded murders in peaceful, gun-controlling countries such as India and China etc. etc.  Guns don't make people decide to go out and kill people.  Gun control doesn't make people peaceful or gentle at heart.

There hasn't been a rampage killing in India since 1983. Large areas of China are not really controlled by the government and an extremely large portion of the people don't have jobs, aren't involved in the economic or political functions of the country at all. Even *then*, the last rampage killing in China was in 2006. I'm not talking about all murders or killings ever. Most *murders* are far more intimate in nature than a rampage killing.

[Moxie]

I disagree. Knowledge is power. With information, we know how to predict likely events and can take measures to avoid them if unwanted. Knowledge about physiology helps us to address the needs of the individual with an ailment. Informations helps us prevent known ailments. Knowledge about mental health (not disorders, but health in general) helps us to address the needs of the individual. Information helps us prevent known trauma. There isn't nearly enough attention spent on mental health and I think it's because of an erroneous but conventional belief that one's mind is somehow separated from their physical being. In other words, one has free control over thoughts, impulses, desires, hopes and fears. Some have more control than others, but the mind is still a product of the physical - the brain. It's an enormously complex system, and shrugging our shoulders and saying "tsk, tsk, nothing can be done," is unethical in my opinion. I mean this statement to reflect society's collective opinion, Moxie, not yours personally. I think yours is a symptom of hearing the collective groupthink and assuming it's true.

But this kid had a therapist! His parents have probably spent thousands on his mental health. There is no "solution" to this issue. Short of solitary confinement, there is no way to stop someone bent on killing lots of people.

[SKL]

There hasn't been a rampage killing in India since 1983. Large areas of China are not really controlled by the government and an extremely large portion of the people don't have jobs, aren't involved in the economic or political functions of the country at all. Even *then*, the last rampage killing in China was in 2006. I'm not talking about all murders or killings ever. Most *murders* are far more intimate in nature than a rampage killing.

 

Actually there was a rampage killing in China very recently (this month) that I heard about.  They happen in India periodically.  They don't always make the US news.

 

This guy specifically targeted (in advance) at least 5 of the 6 people who were killed.  I'm not sure where you draw the line between murder and "rampage killing."  There are crazy, vindictive people in all countries.

 

I don't think it is helpful at all to make this a thing about Americans or gun-owners being more evil than most.  I also don't think that is remotely true.

[OneStepAtATime]

The fact that rampage killings have happened in other countries does not *at all* alleviate a need to do something about the *stream* of rampage killings in the US. As far as other countries are concerned, the vast majority of those in recent years have taken place in countries with little rule of law-Yemen, Uganda, Colombia, places where terrorist cells, drug cartels and warlords rule most of the country. Are those the countries we want to be lumped with? Can't we do better than that?

I agree.  And boy I really hope we can.  In fact, goodness, we should.

 

And I absolutely do not want to be lumped in with countries that see mass killings as just part of their day and have "little rule".  Good point.

 

I also don't believe blanket statements that we are the only country that shrugs off mass killings and all other countries value life besides us (which is what is sometimes implied) is terribly accurate.  In fact, it  isn't accurate at all.  And there are mass killings that occur in other countries that have laws in place and those laws are enforced.  We aren't the only country that has mass killings.  We just aren't.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

 

Just a few I found on Wikipedia.  There are a ton of others.

 

Do we still need to try to address the underlying causes and try to prevent these things from happening, even if this occurs all over the world and it appears that humanity is just awful at times, no matter what society the incident occurred in?  Yep.  I think we still need to try.  And hopefully someday succeed.

[albeto.]

But this kid had a therapist! His parents have probably spent thousands on his mental health. There is no "solution" to this issue. Short of solitary confinement, there is no way to stop someone bent on killing lots of people.

 

Not today we don't have a solution. We had no "solution" to diabetes a century ago, but diligent research gave insight. We're at the infancy stage in understanding human behavior, having really started serious research a century and a half ago with Phineas Gage, the guy who survived a pole through his head. We're still fighting the assumption that free will dictates and explains one's behavior. Therapy isn't a science, and in many cases, it's a crap shoot with regards to what you get out of it. 

[SKL]

I don't recall seeing these in the US news:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/25/india-bus-driver-rampage-pune

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9971747/Indian-man-kills-nine-in-axe-rampage.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633714/Chinese-man-attacks-students-knife-injures-8.html

[albeto.]

Anyone have more information on the link between psychotropic drugs and mass killings?

I was just reading 

INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR ETHICAL PSYCHOLOGY AND PSYCHIATRY 

Statement on the Connection Between Psychotropic Drugs and Mass Murder

 

Pseudoscientific foolishness. 

 

No more helpful than pointing out a statistical correlation between divorce in the state of Maine and consumption of margarine.

 

[Mrs Mungo]

This guy specifically targeted (in advance) at least 5 of the 6 people who were killed.  I'm not sure where you draw the line between murder and "rampage killing."

Rampage killing=running over random people with your car, shoot out of your car, shooting random people, etc.

 

There are crazy, vindictive people in all countries.

 

I don't think it is helpful at all to make this a thing about Americans or gun-owners being more evil than most.  I also don't think that is remotely true.

What in the WORLD? I said nothing about Americans OR gun owners being more evil than most!!! Wow, that is like the king of straw man arguments! What I *do* think is that the US *as a country* should be able to do better than Uganda or India or China or Yemen in preventing tragedies like this! That is hardly an unreasonable statement. :glare:

[SKL]

What I *do* think is that the US *as a country* should be able to do better than Uganda or India or China or Yemen in preventing tragedies like this! That is hardly an unreasonable statement. :glare:

 

My friends from some of those countries would look at you quizzically for saying that.

 

What is it about the USA that you think makes it easier for us to prevent these things?  We have a very large and diverse population.  We are more advanced in civil liberties (compared to the countries you listed), so it is harder for us to justify taking control over individuals' movements.  It's simply not easy, no matter what country you're in.  It may be impossible beyond a point.

[Word Nerd]

What on EARTH makes the fact that he used knife make the shootings OK?

Of course it doesn't--and it's disingenuous for you to suggest that anyone said or even remotely implied that. The killer's knife was just as deadly as his gun, yet the PP who was quoted and others have simplistically blamed this rampage solely on his access to guns. Either the weapon used is relevant or it isn't. You can't reasonably claim that one type of weapon is relevant to this incident and the rest don't matter.

[Mrs Mungo]

My friends from some of those countries would look at you quizzically for saying that.

 

What is it about the USA that you think makes it easier for us to prevent these things?  We have a very large and diverse population.  We are more advanced in civil liberties (compared to the countries you listed), so it is harder for us to justify taking control over individuals' movements.  It's simply not easy, no matter what country you're in.  It may be impossible beyond a point.

 

India has an extreme poverty problem and a much more massive population than the US. Yemen's government is controlled by terrorist cells. Colombia is largely ruled by drug cartels. Upwards of 80% of China's population lives in such extreme poverty that they never even see money. You don't see the difference between those countries and the US? Really? I think you're being disingenuous. You can't be serious. I'm out of this conversation because I can't believe you actually mean what you say. 

[SadieMarie]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/health/2013/09/19/u-s-has-more-guns-and-gun-deaths-than-any-other-country-study-finds/

[SKL]

India has an extreme poverty problem and a much more massive population than the US. Yemen's government is controlled by terrorist cells. Colombia is largely ruled by drug cartels. Upwards of 80% of China's population lives in such extreme poverty that they never even see money. You don't see the difference between those countries and the US? Really? I think you're being disingenuous. You can't be serious. I'm out of this conversation because I can't believe you actually mean what you say. 

 

I am aware of the poverty differences.  However, crazy people going on a killing rampage are not doing it because they are poor.  The Santa Barbara rampager was not poor.

 

You did not answer the question.  What is it about the USA that makes you think it should be easier for us to stop insane people from carrying out mass murders?

[Farrar]

Ok, this is something I've wanted to ask about but truly just because I want to be educated and not bc I am prejudiced. My background: I worked summers in high school and college in a school for autistic children, I as a classroom teacher for 10 years and taught ASD children. I have several friends with children who were diagnosed with Asperger. I have nannied for a child with Asperger as well. I run a co-op where I work out support plans for ASD children so they can be successful in our classes. In my experience, many ASD children do have very violent outbursts. I have scars on my arms from such outbursts. My son has been kicked violently by an ASD child bc my son accidentally brushed the boys shoulder and it was interpreted as an attack. I have seen children with Asperger bite and hit their parents during a meltdown. All these incidents have always been attributed to the Asperger/ASD. But now I keep hearing it is not a violent disorder. I am truly confused. Please don't flame me because I truly am trying to understand something that differs from my experience.

 

Well, I don't have any more experience in this arena than you, but since no one else responded...  I've also taught kids with Asperger's and I've seen some of the behaviors you describe.  I don't think I or anyone was trying to say that people with ASD cannot be violent.  But I think there's a huge difference between a violent tantrum in a child where someone might get hit or kicked and a violent, knife or gun wielding incident that was planned ahead.  My guess is that rates of this sort of violence may even be lower for adults with ASD than for others.  Not that it's impossible (obviously).

 

And, of course, the whole picture of this young man is not known.  He may have been dealing with multiple diagnoses.

[SKL]

There are other things that violent murder correlates to far more than legal gun ownership (in the US).  But it's politically incorrect to go down that path.  And, admittedly, unhelpful.  Just like it's unhelpful to target gun ownership.

[Farrar]

I have read that he had Asperger Syndrome and has been seeing therapists for years because of mental health issues. 

 

I don't care if this is an adult child.  I can't imagine going on with my daily routine after seeing suicidal/homicidal videos that my own "kid" has made...my kid who has known problems and has been seeing therapists for years.  I would be camped out on his doorstep, or sitting in my car "stalking" him just as he reports to have stalked the sorority house even before the day of the shooting.   I am not the kind of person who thinks the police need to do the searching when I would have no problem doing my own snooping in the apartment to see what in the heck is going on with him and is he keeping weapons, illegal drugs, etc.  And I would sure like to know if the parents talked to the roommates...to ask them about behavior, to ask them to call them right away if they notice anything, and especially to let them know that they are living with someone who is sick and might be dangerous.   They would at least have had the chance to get out of a bad situation, and who would blame them?   

 

When I was attending an autism parent support group we had a neurologist tell us that our kids most likely wouldn't be ready to launch at 18.   And I take that seriously....this kind of parenting doesn't end when your kid just happens to turn 21.    

 

And if you decided your presence was making it harder for an adult child to grow up?  If you felt that you had paid for the best care possible?  If your adult child refused to accept your direct help anymore?  If your child didn't care if he was "ready to launch" but insisted on leaving?  If after years of living at home, you all felt it was time and after he left he started to get worse?  You just can't control everything.

 

I just find this attitude that they are in any way at fault baffling.  They paid for care, they stayed in touch with him, they contacted the police on multiple occasions and tried to see if more needed to be done.  Hindsight is 20/20.

[SKL]

It sounds to me like these parents did more than most parents would do.

 

It is sad to see people saying "they should" or "I would" when they have not been in that situation themselves.

 

Why can't we just let a tragedy be a tragedy instead of always needing to string people up....

[Laura Corin]

There are many mass killings and individual killings around the world that don't make it to US TV.  There are many murders around the world that aren't even treated as murders.  Many, many.

 

If you wanted to, you could ask on these boards about mass killings in the home countries of board members.  This might give an idea of whether there were lots of incidents in other countries that don't make it to the US news.

 

L

[*Lulu*]

Well, I don't have any more experience in this arena than you, but since no one else responded... I've also taught kids with Asperger's and I've seen some of the behaviors you describe. I don't think I or anyone was trying to say that people with ASD cannot be violent. But I think there's a huge difference between a violent tantrum in a child where someone might get hit or kicked and a violent, knife or gun wielding incident that was planned ahead. My guess is that rates of this sort of violence may even be lower for adults with ASD than for others. Not that it's impossible (obviously).

 

And, of course, the whole picture of this young man is not known. He may have been dealing with multiple diagnoses.

Thank you.

 

My older son is ASD and we strongly suspect the younger of our boys is as well. The only time I would describe either boy as violent beyond their NT same aged peers is when they are in full meltdown. Even then, while my older son may say he wants to hit something or someone he has enough self control not to strike out with few exceptions. (He knows when he starts feeling like he is loosing control what he can do to calm himself and is getting better and better about doing it as he matures.) My younger son is not as controlled yet, but he is significantly less mature and much more easily overwhelmed by sensory input.

 

Honestly, both of my boys are MUCH more likely to hurt themselves during a meltdown than to hurt someone else. The only time I have ever been hurt by oldest was when I tried to physically restrain him in a public setting when he tried to bolt several years ago. Since then I have learned better holds and non-touching methods and I think if we had an exact replicant of that incident tomorrow I would be fine even though he is almost my size now.

 

When they do lose control they feel massive amounts of remorse after they calm down. I cannot imagine either one of them staying in "crisis" long enough to calculate and carry out a plan of the sort in the Santa Barbara situation. That sort of long term planning is not something I would equate with a meltdown.

 

Plenty of NT people do horrible things very day. I find it believable that sometimes someone with ASD is going to be capable of that level of violence. I do not, however, believe that our society is being plagued with violence because we have people with ASD living among us.

[Laura Corin]

And there are mass killings that occur in other countries that have laws in place and those laws are enforced.  We aren't the only country that has mass killings.  We just aren't.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_school_massacre

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre

 

 

You've chosen some bad examples.  Those two events (separated by many years - even the later one happened in the elementary school of Wimbledon champion Andy Murray whilst he was a pupil) led to a tightening up of gun laws in the UK.  Since that time, there have been two  more street shootings (using a shotgun) and, I think, two crazed school stabbings.  Even if I've missed some (I lived away for many years) the level is absolutely different from what is experienced in the US.   Check the dates.

 

I don't think that anyone has said that other countries don't have mass killings.  The scale is, in some cases, very different.

 

L

[freesia]

When they do lose control they feel massive amounts of remorse after they calm down. I cannot imagine either one of them staying in "crisis" long enough to calculate and carry out a plan of the sort in the Santa Barbara situation. That sort of long term planning is not something I would equate with a meltdown.

 

Plenty of NT people do horrible things very day. I find it believable that sometimes someone with ASD is going to be capable of that level of violence. I do not, however, believe that our society is being plagued with violence because we have people with ASD living among us.

Thanks to the folks who answered me. I hadn't thought about the pre-planning part of the issue. That makes sense to me and I should have seen that.

 

And, yes, I agree completely that the violence we have is not bc we have ASD folks living among us.

[SadieMarie]

I don't recall seeing these in the US news:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/25/india-bus-driver-rampage-pune

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9971747/Indian-man-kills-nine-in-axe-rampage.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633714/Chinese-man-attacks-students-knife-injures-8.html

 I heard about the one in China actually.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

I don't recall seeing these in the US news:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jan/25/india-bus-driver-rampage-pune

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9971747/Indian-man-kills-nine-in-axe-rampage.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2633714/Chinese-man-attacks-students-knife-injures-8.html

 

I saw all three of these in the news at the time.

[SadieMarie]

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/24/elliot_rodger_the_pick_up_artist_community_s_predictable_horrible_response.html

 

So Slate did an article about some of the sites the shooter was spending time on, mostly how to get women to give you "tea".  Relationships are nothing.  It is all about getting tea from h o t girls (they have a scale apparently).  They refer to the men that women chose instead of them as "targets", really sick and sad at the same time.  

[poppy]

 

 

What on EARTH makes the fact that he used knife make the shootings OK?

 

Of course it doesn't--and it's disingenuous for you to suggest that anyone said or even remotely implied that. The killer's knife was just as deadly as his gun, yet the PP who was quoted and others have simplistically blamed this rampage solely on his access to guns. Either the weapon used is relevant or it isn't. You can't reasonably claim that one type of weapon is relevant to this incident and the rest don't matter.

 

It's disingenuous of me? Someone talked about how we need better gun control, and the response was "it wouldn't help the people he stabbed".   I was questioning why that would be the response.... perhaps I should have worded it:  why on earth does the fact that he used a knife become the answer given to that statement? I mean, I know that's straight out of the NRA playbook..... but I also added the context  of a tearful and horrifying interview with the father of the student who was shot and killed.

I am the PP who was quoted, I didn't blame the rampage solely on guns, but I think they are a pretty critical factor.   I honestly don't know what to say to anyone who thinks guns are completely irrelevant in the case of a man who went on a shooting rampage.

[Jasperstone]

Yet in countries without guns like ours, it doesn't happen.

 

We are the only country that shrugs off mass murder sprees.

 

It happens here as well, except, its the criminals that only have them.

 

And the reason it's not as frequent is that we have less population here in Australia. So you would have to take the dynamics of that into account as well.

[mommymilkies]

Yes.

 

This is the point were usually I'd point out that since our CONSERVATIVE PM WITH BIPARTISAN SUPPORT  enacted strict gun laws almost two decades ago, we haven't experienced a mass shooting. He took this action immediately after the Port Arthur massacre, where 35 people where shot, including two children.

 

But I won't, because I get sick of the dog pile that happens afterwards. And you know, why should the US learn from another nation's experience ? That would be interfering with liberty or something.

 

I want to like this, but I'm out of likes. 

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/05/24/elliot_rodger_the_pick_up_artist_community_s_predictable_horrible_response.html

 

So Slate did an article about some of the sites the shooter was spending time on, mostly how to get women to give you "tea".  Relationships are nothing.  It is all about getting tea from h o t girls (they have a scale apparently).  They refer to the men that women chose instead of them as "targets", really sick and sad at the same time.  

Wow.  H.o.l.y. s.m.o.k.e.s.

[ElizabethB]

Actually, the most compelling argument against gun control I have heard was from a liberal Jewish family, they cited the link between Genocide and gun control, this site is a little over the top overall but the chart is informative:

 

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart

 

They feared for minorities of all kinds down the road, not just Jewish people, after the establishment of strict gun control in a country.

[OneStepAtATime]

You've chosen some bad examples.  Those two events (separated by many years - even the later one happened in the elementary school of Wimbledon champion Andy Murray whilst he was a pupil) led to a tightening up of gun laws in the UK.  Since that time, there has been two  more street shootings (using a shotgun) and, I think, two crazed school stabbings.  Even if I've missed some (I lived away for many years) the level is absolutely different from what is experienced in the US.   Check the dates.

 

I don't think that anyone has said that other countries don't have mass killings.  The scale is, in some cases, very different.

 

L

You are right, Laura, I chose bad examples and I apologize.  I was in a hurry and should have been more careful.

[Vera]

Of course it doesn't--and it's disingenuous for you to suggest that anyone said or even remotely implied that. The killer's knife was just as deadly as his gun, yet the PP who was quoted and others have simplistically blamed this rampage solely on his access to guns. Either the weapon used is relevant or it isn't. You can't reasonably claim that one type of weapon is relevant to this incident and the rest don't matter.

The weapon is extremely relevant. Adam Lanza wouldn't even have made it into the building if he had only been armed with a knife. Killing large numbers of people with a knife is extremely difficult. On the same day that Adam Lanza killed 26 people in the most beautiful and peaceful town in America, a crazy man attacked a school in China and ALL of the victims went home. This kid in California would have been overpowered long before he managed to hurt so many people if he only had a knife. Guns are for killing people! They are very, very good at that. It should be at least as difficult to get a gun as it is to get a driver's license - or even Sudafed! I had to go through more paperwork to buy Sudafed than I would to buy a gun. I am not against people owning guns but it should be extremely difficult to get one. It is so easy to think that it is always somewhere else until your phone rings in the morning and a recording tells you that there has been a shooting in the school. Too many people know what that feels like now.

[poppy]

Actually, the most compelling argument against gun control I have heard was from a liberal Jewish family, they cited the link between Genocide and gun control, this site is a little over the top overall but the chart is informative:

 

http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart

 

They feared for minorities of all kinds down the road, not just Jewish people, after the establishment of strict gun control in a country.

 

Relevant countries in that article:

Ottoman Turks, USSR, Nazi Germany, China, Guatemala, Uganda, Cambodia, Rwanda.

[SKL]

In Australia after the gun control law:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monash_University_shooting

 

I should add the student came to class with six loaded handguns, all of which were legally obtained under the "strict" Australian gun control laws.

 

There are also several listings of fires intentionally started that led to many deaths:

 

• Childers Palace Fire - In June 2000, drifter and con-artist Robert Long started a fire at the Childers Palace backpackers hostel that killed 15 people.
• Churchill Fire - 10 confirmed deaths due to a deliberately lit fire. The fire was lit on 7th of February 2009.^[6]
• Quakers Hill Nursing Home Fire - 10 confirmed and as many as 21 people may have died as a result of a deliberately lit fire in a Quakers Hill nursing home. The fire was lit early on 18th of November 2011.^[7]

There are also people who argue that gun crimes went up after the law was enacted, but that is debatable.  In any case it certainly has not decreased any more rapidly than it was already decreasing before the gun buy-back.  (It's been steadily decreasing in the USA as well.)

[Kathryn]

I just finished reading his whole manifesto. This guy had WAY more going on than Aspergers. If I had been reading fiction, I would have considered it really bad fiction for being so implausible that someone could think the thoughts he did. Although the whole thing was awful, the thing that got me the most was that he planned to kill his little brother (who was born when he was 14, so would be about 8) because his brother was sociable and he would grow up to have sex with girls, while he couldn't. The entire thing was full of his sense of entitlement on how he deserved sex with blond women and lots of money and if he couldn't have it, nobody could. He hated women intensely. Everything wrong in his life was someone else's fault. He fancied himself "magnificent," "of superior intelligence," and "a god."

[SKL]

Relevant countries in that article:

Ottoman Turks, USSR, Nazi Germany, China, Guatemala, Uganda, Cambodia, Rwanda.

 

The countries that came under the control of Nazi Germany and those which were controlled by the USSR are the same countries which many of our ancestors came from.  During most of their history, great things happened in those countries.  It is definitely scary to think how drastically things can change when the wrong people have the wrong powers.

[poppy]

The countries that came under the control of Nazi Germany and those which were controlled by the USSR are the same countries which many of our ancestors came from.  During most of their history, great things happened in those countries.  It is definitely scary to think how drastically things can change when the wrong people have the wrong powers.

 

They are all countries with long standing tensions regarding minority populations not having representation in government.  Really completely unrelated to gun control in the US.... it's just a distraction.  Crazy people shouldn't have easy access to legal weapons that are designed to kill a lot of people very fast. But many do. That is bad. We should fix that.

[Slartibartfast]

1. I have seen a close family member involuntarily committed. The process was not as time consuming, complex, and filled with drama as some would make it sound.

 

 

Those rules are governed by the state. Different states have different laws on the issue. A few  require that someone be a danger to themselves or others or are so gravely disabled that they unable to provide themselves with basic necessities such as  food or shelter. Virginia used to be one of the "imminent danger" states. They changed their laws following the Virginia Tech shooting.

[Word Nerd]

The weapon is extremely relevant. Adam Lanza wouldn't even have made it into the building if he had only been armed with a knife. Killing large numbers of people with a knife is extremely difficult. On the same day that Adam Lanza killed 26 people in the most beautiful and peaceful town in America, a crazy man attacked a school in China and ALL of the victims went home. This kid in California would have been overpowered long before he managed to hurt so many people if he only had a knife. Guns are for killing people! They are very, very good at that. It should be at least as difficult to get a gun as it is to get a driver's license - or even Sudafed! I had to go through more paperwork to buy Sudafed than I would to buy a gun. I am not against people owning guns but it should be extremely difficult to get one. It is so easy to think that it is always somewhere else until your phone rings in the morning and a recording tells you that there has been a shooting in the school. Too many people know what that feels like now.

I didn't claim it wasn't relevant!

[Cammie]

In India we have mass deaths by poison, vehicle, hatchet.

 

However, in India I never have to worry that my child will be taken out at school by a crazed gunman.

 

I never have to worry that my child will be hit by a stray bullet from someone else's fight.

 

I never have to worry that a gun in a friend's house might go off  accidently and kill my child.

 

I never have to worry that my child and his friends might find a gun and "play" with it.

 

I never have to worry that someone will break into our house at gunpoint.

 

There are tragedies all over the world.  There is mental illness all over the world.  None of that excuses a country that on the one hand believes in "American exceptionalism" and on the other hand wants to shrug its shoulders and say "why should we be able to do better than anyone else in the world."

[Word Nerd]

I am the PP who was quoted, I didn't blame the rampage solely on guns, but I think they are a pretty critical factor. I honestly don't know what to say to anyone who thinks guns are completely irrelevant in the case of a man who went on a shooting rampage.

Post #10 is what was quoted.

 

No one claimed guns are completely irrelevant to this case.

[Cammie]

What's your plan, gun advocates?

 

I am really struggling right now.  I am struggling to figure out how I ever feel safe sending my children to the US for schooling or college.  Is it just a crap shoot you are all willing to take?  Maybe your child gets slaughtered, maybe she doesn't?  Or are you all arming your children to the teeth?  So that if and when the crazed gun man comes your child will engage him in a gun fight?  Or are you all out buying those cute little bullet proof backpacks for Johnny to take to school with him?

 

Really, what's your plan?  Continue as the country is continuing?  Being the laughing stock of the world for not being able to figure out the most basic rights of a citizenry - the right to be SAFE?

 

I really, really cannot wrap my mind around any argument that doesn't accept that the level of gun violence in the US is completely and totally unacceptable.  If we don't all start from that proposition, how do we move forward?

[Dana]

Post #10 is what was quoted.

 

No one claimed guns are completely irrelevant to this case.

And I didn't claim that severe restrictions on guns prevent all killings ever.

 

I lived in that neighborhood for 4 years.

 

If he'd been running around IV with a knife, not as many people would have died.

Yes, he'd have still likely killed his roommates, but the people walking around wouldn't have been shot.

 

Twenty years ago this weekend, I left our apartment in Santa Barbara (on Del Playa) to get married in Monterey. Two weeks later, I graduated. Two weeks later, I moved across country to start grad school. It's really hard not to think of the people who were killed and out myself in their shoes or now the shoes of the parents who lost children.

 

Dh and I said before info was out on the shooter that we expected he attended SBCC.

It's only people with more money than sense who pay the exorbitant prices for rent in IV to have a kid attend a cc. It's phenomenally stupid.

 

From the shooter's writings, "My first act of preparation was the purchase my first handgun. I did this quickly and hastily, at a local gun shop called Goleta Gun and Supply. I had already done some research on handguns, and I decided to purchase the Glock 34 semiautomatic pistol, an efficient and highly accurate weapon. I signed all of the papers and was told that my pickup day was in mid-December.

 

After I picked up the handgun, I brought it back to my room and felt a new sense of power. I was now armed. Who’s the alpha male now, bitches."

From url=http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-isla-vista-document-20140524-story.html#page=2

 

"A new sense of power" from the gun.

 

And yet we will continue to do nothing about guns.

[Anne in CA]

The reason for the massacre is screwed up parenting - if my child had mental illness and was seeing a couple of therapists and threatened to kill many people (for several weeks before the actual killing), I would go to him and bring him home and take care of him until he was well. I will not call the police to check on his welfare (most parents I know would do the same - bring the kid home - without a second thought). People who have better things to do when their kids are so mentally ill and helpless should not be procreating (sorry, I have family that are in the campus at UCSB right now and I was really scared for a while when this happened). The stabbed roommates are local to me and the news has been talking about them all day long :(

 

PS: All the killer's neighbors are saying that he did not like to socialize even when they tried to befriend him.

I have a friend who has a brother who is a paranoid schizophrenic. Even with a clear diagnosis it took YEARS for her father to gain guardianship over him. YEARS. And, really, no one should just be able to take away some one else's rights easily. Poor Cary Grant lost his mother to a mental institution when his alcoholic father did not want her complaining about his drinking any more. It should not be easy to take control of some one else's life. In the case of my friend's brother, he has never been violent or hurt anyone, but he is not stable and things could turn bad at any time. There are not good options for people with mentally ill family. But the flip side of that is that you would not want people to be able to lock away relatives who are simply inconvenient. Considering the number of young people I have met over the years who were tossed out of their homes for horrible reasons (they were gay, they would not go door to door with JW parents, ect...) I would not want people to just be able to lock up any inconvenient relative in an institution. This problem is bigger than you might guess.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

In India we have mass deaths by poison, vehicle, hatchet.

 

However, in India I never have to worry that my child will be taken out at school by a crazed gunman.

 

I never have to worry that my child will be hit by a stray bullet from someone else's fight.

 

I never have to worry that a gun in a friend's house might go off  accidently and kill my child.

 

I never have to worry that my child and his friends might find a gun and "play" with it.

 

I never have to worry that someone will break into our house at gunpoint.

 

There are tragedies all over the world.  There is mental illness all over the world.  None of that excuses a country that on the one hand believes in "American exceptionalism" and on the other hand wants to shrug its shoulders and say "why should we be able to do better than anyone else in the world."

 

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

[Χά�ων]

The reason for the massacre is screwed up parenting - if my child had mental illness and was seeing a couple of therapists and threatened to kill many people (for several weeks before the actual killing), I would go to him and bring him home and take care of him until he was well. I will not call the police to check on his welfare (most parents I know would do the same - bring the kid home - without a second thought). People who have better things to do when their kids are so mentally ill and helpless should not be procreating (sorry, I have family that are in the campus at UCSB right now and I was really scared for a while when this happened). The stabbed roommates are local to me and the news has been talking about them all day long :(

 

PS: All the killer's neighbors are saying that he did not like to socialize even when they tried to befriend him.

I am guessing you do not have a close relative with a severe mental illness. It is NOT something you bring a loved one home and treat. 

[hillfarm]

In an attempt to sort through all the emotionalism, fear, sensationalism, etc, what was the ONE thing that caused this incident? Millions of people own guns and use them responsibly, so the gun is not automatically the problem. Thousands (perhaps millions) of parents do so very badly, yet few of their children go off the deep end and commit these types of crimes. The police might have made a mistake in judgment, but that does not mean anyone has to go out and kill people. We have a lot of very questionable media around, but the vast majority of viewers do not become murders. What is the ONE thing that, had it been removed, this crime would have not happened.

 

IMO, the answer is mental illness. Why are we so afraid to go after that cause as vociferously and aggressively as we have gone after all the others? Why aren't we demanding better assessment, better treatment? Equipping our mental health providers and officials with laws that have a real impact? Educating and supporting parents to make the best choices possible for their mentally ill dc? Putting pressure on researchers to find new and better ways of treating mental illness?  I think it is because all of that would be really hard.

 

It is so easy to blame guns, parenting, police, poverty or entitlement, the media, But the real root of this problem is terribly complex and daunting. However, I don't believe we will solve the problem without dealing with the root. Because solving any of the contributing causes will not address the heart of the issue. And it appears to me that this tragedy would never had happened in the absence of the fuse of mental illness.

[Anne in CA]

What's your plan, gun advocates?

 

I am really struggling right now.  I am struggling to figure out how I ever feel safe sending my children to the US for schooling or college.  Is it just a crap shoot you are all willing to take?  Maybe your child gets slaughtered, maybe she doesn't?  Or are you all arming your children to the teeth?  So that if and when the crazed gun man comes your child will engage him in a gun fight?  Or are you all out buying those cute little bullet proof backpacks for Johnny to take to school with him?

 

Really, what's your plan?  Continue as the country is continuing?  Being the laughing stock of the world for not being able to figure out the most basic rights of a citizenry - the right to be SAFE?

 

I really, really cannot wrap my mind around any argument that doesn't accept that the level of gun violence in the US is completely and totally unacceptable.  If we don't all start from that proposition, how do we move forward?

I am not a gun advocate at all, but I have traveled enough to know that you do not want to live in a world where guns are only for police and criminals. And yes, criminals get guns no matter how much you might wish differently. In Nepal armed Maoists took over the whole country with a hand full of guns because they could use just a few to cause great terror. In Texas if someone abducted all those girls their fathers would hunt the perps down in cold blood and take them back, unlike Nigeria where all those people are at the mercy of the military and police who are often  armed criminals themselves. How safe is Mexico? Gun ownership by civilians is illegal there, and the cartels run the place. 

 

As horrible as all the school shootings are, and what happened to poor Trevon Martin is so disgusting I can't think about it without getting ill to my stomach, things could be worse. I have been lots of places where they are. I don't have the answers, but taking away all guns is not a realistic one at this time.

[kubiac]

This makes no sense to me.  Having too much stuff from your parents can turn you into a mass murderer?  Is this what you are saying?  If they made him have a paper route he would have turned out OK?  

 

EDIT: I had a  post here, but on second thought, forget it. I don't know what I'm talking about, and my opinions on this tragedy help no one. Sigh.