Santa Barbara shooting

[Cammie]

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

 

Really, "normal folks" don't worry about gun violence in schools?  After all the school massacres?  What exactly is enough gun violence in schools for you to get worried?

[hillfarm]

What's your plan, gun advocates?

 

I am really struggling right now.  I am struggling to figure out how I ever feel safe sending my children to the US for schooling or college.  Is it just a crap shoot you are all willing to take?  Maybe your child gets slaughtered, maybe she doesn't?  Or are you all arming your children to the teeth?  So that if and when the crazed gun man comes your child will engage him in a gun fight?  Or are you all out buying those cute little bullet proof backpacks for Johnny to take to school with him?

 

Really, what's your plan?  Continue as the country is continuing?  Being the laughing stock of the world for not being able to figure out the most basic rights of a citizenry - the right to be SAFE?

 

I really, really cannot wrap my mind around any argument that doesn't accept that the level of gun violence in the US is completely and totally unacceptable.  If we don't all start from that proposition, how do we move forward?

 

So where will you send them? What country has no problem with mental illness or has a perfect handle of identifying and treating it?

[Joker]

These conversations always leave me wondering what has changed from when I was young or what is different in these places from where I was raised.

 

I am from a small southern town and everyone had guns. We not only had guns but they were not locked up, most were loaded, and the ammunition was in plain sight as well. My own home was like most of my friends which meant the shotguns were on a rack on a wall with ammunition underneath and there was no lock. There were also loaded handguns kept in bedrooms and again not locked. I once had an 8 year old bring me her father's gun when I was babysitting because there was someone up to no good outside.

 

Yet we had zero school shootings. There was only one incident of an in house accidental shooting but they were teens playing Russian roulette. There were no little kids grabbing the guns and harming anyone. There were no teens taking their own or their parents' guns into the schools and shooting anyone. We had a few fist fights but that was it - never anything more violent.  My hometown has grown quite a bit but there have still been zero shootings in schools yet most still own guns.

 

I have a really hard time believing our issues are about access. FTR, I own no guns as an adult.

 

[Cammie]

I am not a gun advocate at all, but I have traveled enough to know that you do not want to live in a world where guns are only for police and criminals. And yes, criminals get guns no matter how much you might wish differently. In Nepal armed Maoists took over the whole country with a hand full of guns because they could use just a few to cause great terror. In Texas if someone abducted all those girls their fathers would hunt the perps down in cold blood and take them back, unlike Nigeria where all those people are at the mercy of the military and police who are often  armed criminals themselves. How safe is Mexico? Gun ownership by civilians is illegal there, and the cartels run the place. 

 

As horrible as all the school shootings are, and what happened to poor Trevon Martin is so disgusting I can't think about it without getting ill to my stomach, things could be worse. I have been lots of places where they are. I don't have the answers, but taking away all guns is not a realistic one at this time.

 

This whole idea that it "all or nothing" is perpetuated by the NRA and the gun companies.  Isn't it possible to have highly regulated gun ownership?  Strict licensing requirements?  Insurance for gun owners?   Limits on how much capacity firearms can legally have?  Why are these things bad?  Oh, yes, the NRA's slippery slope argument comes in here.

 

A company has invented a "smart gun."  The gun only fires in the hands of a person wearing a wristband that correlates to the gun.  This at least prevents you from getting shot with your own gun when it gets away from you.  Or from someone stealing your gun and using it to kill someone.  Has this been greeted by cheering in the gun advocate community - NO.  It has been the reason for boycotting and targeting the gun dealers who DARED to sell this particular gun.  Why?  What's the problem?  Too safe?

[Cammie]

So where will you send them? What country has no problem with mental illness or has a perfect handle of identifying and treating it?

 

I'll keep them in a country where people with mental illness don't have access to high capacity rifles, unlimited ammo and whatever the heck they feel like buying.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Really, "normal folks" don't worry about gun violence in schools?  After all the school massacres?  What exactly is enough gun violence in schools for you to get worried?

 

I don't worry about random acts of violence. Properly balanced people normally don't.

 

[Cammie]

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

 

I'm guessing that your "normal folks" don't live in the inner cities?  Death by stray bullet is VERY real and VERY tragic for the "normal folks" who live in our major inner cities.  Or do they not count?

[Cammie]

I don't worry about random acts of violence. Properly balanced people normally don't.

 

 

Ok, so now I get it.  Only "unbalanced" people worry about the massacres happening in the US.  All of you "balanced" people just play the odds it will never happen to you or to someone that you love and if it does..."meh."

[Vera]

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

They should. I know several people who lost children in the Sandy Hook shooting. They are all very normal, lovely people. They dropped their children off at a safe and loving school and never imagined that their kids would never come back out. Some of them moved to Sandy Hook because it is a safe place to raise kids. There will never be a safe place to raise kids in this country until we do something to regulate guns!

[hillfarm]

I'll keep them in a country where people with mental illness don't have access to high capacity rifles, unlimited ammo and whatever the heck they feel like buying.

 

Where is that? And how can you be sure that the lack of access to high capacity rifles, unlimited ammo, etc. would be enough protection? Knives, bombs and poison gas have all been used to attack students. How could you be sure that the violent mentally ill in that country wouldn't substitute one tool for another?

 

I wish I believed that restricting access to guns and ammo would be the solution. But I don't. An evil mind seeking to murder seems to unfortunately find a way.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok, so now I get it.  Only "unbalanced" people worry about the massacres happening in the US.  All of you "balanced" people just play the odds it will never happen to you or to someone that you love and if it does..."meh."

 

Pretty much.  Statistically your child is significantly waaaaay more likely to die in a car accident. So unless they are in the corner sucking their thumb and rocking themselves every time their child goes for a car ride, then I would argue they are exaggerating their "concern" regarding school shootings.

[happyWImom]

I've been reading this thread and have agreed with some, disagreed with others, and finally come to the conclusion that we all are just horrified and scared and want to find a solution so this type of thing won't happen again.  Right?  Is there only one answer or one solution, though? 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

They should. I know several people who lost children in the Sandy Hook shooting. They are all very normal, lovely people. They dropped their children off at a safe and loving school and never imagined that their kids would never come back out. Some of them moved to Sandy Hook because it is a safe place to raise kids. There will never be a safe place to raise kids in this country until we do something to regulate guns!

 

Based on the sheer unlikelihood of a child in the US being involved in a school shooting, they shouldn't.

[SadieMarie]

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

I worry about it and I consider myself normal, well, for the most part.

[Vera]

Based on the sheer unlikelihood of a child in the US being involved in a school shooting, they shouldn't.

That doesn't make those kids any less dead.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I've been reading this thread and have agreed with some, disagreed with others, and finally come to the conclusion that we all are just horrified and scared and want to find a solution so this type of thing won't happen again.  Right?  Is there only one answer or one solution, though? 

 

No, there is not a single solution.

 

--We do need tighter gun regulations and better/more consistent enforcement of current regulations. However, to get to that point, the advocates of "just ban the guns/regulate them into nonexistence" have to accept that is not a realistic goal, and instead we need to focus on what can be corrected.

--In addition, we can't pretend it is only a gun problem.  We have a tremendous inequity in the quality and availability of mental health care that must also be addressed.

--Related to both of those issues, we have to come up with a workable way to restrict gun ownership from those who could be unstable.  This will mean we need a consistent way to define that legally, and to make sure the information is accessible to government agencies responsible for the licensing/registration of firearms. Unfortunately there are legitimate privacy concerns related to this issue which leads to conflict among advocacy groups who agree in principle on gun regulation.

[Joker]

Both of my dds are attending public school this year for middle school and I will have one in high school this fall, and I do not worry about them being involved in a school shooting. I stress more when they are driving with someone else. When oldest went on a school field trip to D.C. and was on a chartered bus, I didn't sleep the days she was traveling. I'm not stressing on the days I drop them off at school, though.

[Carrie12345]

:(

Forget the adult aspect.  I have a friend who has been unable to get her *teenager* help.

I don't want to share too many personal details, but every legal option has been pursued.  The PARENTS were almost charged with a crime b/c they refuse to have this violent, threatening person living with a younger minor child.  Every agency imaginable has been involved and the family's walked through hell, yet this person is out and about in the world.

 

If there ever comes a day when I hear someone say my friend should have done something, it will take everything *I* have not to get violent!

[SKL]

I'm guessing that your "normal folks" don't live in the inner cities?  Death by stray bullet is VERY real and VERY tragic for the "normal folks" who live in our major inner cities.  Or do they not count?

 

I beg your pardon, but I can hardly believe you are saying these things, speaking from a country where girls are in danger of being gang raped and murdered in broad daylight just for daring to walk down the street, with crowds watching unperturbed, and rapists often getting away scot free.  One might ask how you can send your children out of the house in such conditions.

 

To answer your questions, the rate of violent crimes against children in this country (other than by their own parents) is extremely low.  And also, the rates of gun violence in this country have been on a steady decline for decades.  Therefore unless one lives in an exceptionally dangerous neighborhood, no, we do not fear for our children when we send them to school.  That would be irrational.  It is far more likely that they would be killed accidentally during our commute in a car some day - and even that is very rare.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That doesn't make those kids any less dead.

 

Your point? That is like saying those who lost loved ones in the WTC should have been worried about their welfare before 9/11.  And afterwards, we all still went back into high rises and federal buildings.

 

[Cammie]

Where is that? And how can you be sure that the lack of access to high capacity rifles, unlimited ammo, etc. would be enough protection? Knives, bombs and poison gas have all been used to attack students. How could you be sure that the violent mentally ill in that country wouldn't substitute one tool for another?

 

I wish I believed that restricting access to guns and ammo would be the solution. But I don't. An evil mind seeking to murder seems to unfortunately find a way.

 

We all have to weigh the relative risks associated with certain behaviors.  I'm not saying that eliminating easy access to high capacity guns eliminates ALL violence in a society or eliminates all access to evil that a sick person might want to perpetuate.

 

What has become clear is that mentally ill people in the US are finding it VERY easy to get access to enough guns and ammo to fulfill their most evil fantasies.  By and large they have not been cooking up poison gas in their garage.  By and large they have not bombed their schools or their classmates.  They have violent fantasies and easy ways to ensure maximum death and tragedy.

 

The more regulations, the more hoops to jump through, the more difficult you make the entire process of acquiring guns and ammo, the more mentally ill people will be prevented from access.  How is this a bad thing??

 

[Cammie]

I beg your pardon, but I can hardly believe you are saying these things, speaking from a country where girls are in danger of being gang raped and murdered in broad daylight just for daring to walk down the street, with crowds watching unperturbed, and rapists often getting away scot free.  One might ask how you can send your children out of the house in such conditions.

 

To answer your questions, the rate of violent crimes against children in this country (other than by their own parents) is extremely low.  And also, the rates of gun violence in this country have been on a steady decline for decades.  Therefore unless one lives in an exceptionally dangerous neighborhood, no, we do not fear for our children when we send them to school.  That would be irrational.  It is far more likely that they would be killed accidentally during our commute in a car some day - and even that is very rare.

 

You and I have gone rounds in the past regarding how terrible you think India is and I have no desire to relive that.

 

Your image of India does not correlate to my life in India or to the life of any of my friends and neighbors who have daughters who walk around Bangalore in shorts, go to college on public busses, go out to pubs, go dancing, etc.

 

Yes there have been some terrible tragedies in India.  There are terrible crimes against women.  I would hazard a guess and say the US is not immune to gang rape?  To murder?  To impassive bystanders?  To rapists not being convicted?

[SKL]

The more regulations, the more hoops to jump through, the more difficult you make the entire process of acquiring guns and ammo, the more mentally ill people will be prevented from access.  How is this a bad thing??

 

 

It's a bad thing because the vast majority of people who want to buy a gun have no intention of using it to harm another human being.

 

And also, mentally ill people kill with via other means as well.  Should we ban knives and cars and matches because some lunatics use these to kill people?

[Vera]

Your point? That is like saying those who lost loved ones in the WTC should have been worried about their welfare before 9/11. And afterwards, we all still went back into high rises and federal buildings.

 

Far more people die from gun violence than terrorism. Particularly in the US. It would make vastly more sense to worry about a child in the US dying from a gun related incident than being killed by terrorists.

[SKL]

You and I have gone rounds in the past regarding how terrible you think India is and I have no desire to relive that.

 

Your image of India does not correlate to my life in India or to the life of any of my friends and neighbors who have daughters who walk around Bangalore in shorts, go to college on public busses, go out to pubs, go dancing, etc.

 

Yes there have been some terrible tragedies in India.  There are terrible crimes against women.  I would hazard a guess and say the US is not immune to gang rape?  To murder?  To impassive bystanders?  To rapists not being convicted?

 

Well, your image of the USA doesn't correlate to my experiences or the lives of any of my friends, neighbors, or relatives, either.

 

I do have friends from India (and in India) who will attest to the fact that females are not as safe alone in public (or in private) there as they are here.

 

I don't come on here looking for an opportunity to bash India, but after your repeated posts suggesting the US is basically a hell hole, I couldn't just sit by quietly.

 

Have you lived here in the US?  Visited?  Have close friends/relatives who have lived here?

[Cammie]

Well, your image of the USA doesn't correlate to my experiences or the lives of any of my friends, neighbors, or relatives, either.

 

I do have friends from India (and in India) who will attest to the fact that females are not as safe alone in public (or in private) there as they are here.

 

I don't come on here looking for an opportunity to bash India, but after your repeated posts suggesting the US is basically a hell hole, I couldn't just sit by quietly.

 

Have you lived here in the US?  Visited?  Have close friends/relatives who have lived here?

 

I am an American - born and bred, going back about 4-5 generations if that makes any difference to you.  Lived all my life in the US until 8 years ago.  Not sure if that information changes the way you read my earlier posts.  I am not an "outsider" criticizing your country.  I am an American.  I vote.  I pay US taxes.  I think I have a right to criticize the policies in my own country, no?  All that free speech and stuff.

[SKL]

I am an American - born and bred, going back about 4-5 generations if that makes any difference to you.  Lived all my life in the US until 8 years ago.  Not sure if that information changes the way you read my earlier posts.  I am not an "outsider" criticizing your country.  I am an American.  I vote.  I pay US taxes.  I think I have a right to criticize the policies in my own country, no?  All that free speech and stuff.

 

Yeah, I thought you were from the US originally, but the way you are talking on here about "you people" and as if the place is rife with murderers got me wondering.  Especially given the stark difference in public safety between here and there.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Far more people die from gun violence than terrorism. Particularly in the US. It would make vastly more sense to worry about a child in the US dying from a gun related incident than being killed by terrorists.

 

And like I said, the likelihood of dying in a car accident is significantly greater.  Yet parents put their children in cars every day.

[Cammie]

Yeah, I thought you were from the US originally, but the way you are talking on here about "you people" and as if the place is rife with murderers got me wondering.  Especially given the stark difference in public safety between here and there.

 

 

"You" gun advocates.  "You" people with children attending schools in the US.  I also talk about "Our" inner cities.

 

I get the feeling that you have just decided you don't like me and will find something to disagree with no matter what I say.

[Vera]

It's a bad thing because the vast majority of people who want to buy a gun have no intention of using it to harm another human being.

 

And also, mentally ill people kill with via other means as well. Should we ban knives and cars and matches because some lunatics use these to kill people?

The small minority are doing an amazing amount of damage. Are those of you in the vast majority not bothered by that?

 

I haven't heard anyone say that they wanted to ban guns. Have you? I also haven't heard anyone say that putting more controls on gun ownership would prevent all violence.

[SKL]

nm 

 

[SKL]

The small minority are doing an amazing amount of damage. Are those of you in the vast majority not bothered by that?

 

I haven't heard anyone say that they wanted to ban guns. Have you? I also haven't heard anyone say that putting more controls on gun ownership would prevent all violence.

 

I'm very bothered by the fact that this man killed 3 people with a knife and nobody really seems to care about that.  Knives are not politically charged.  Had he stopped at those 3, or killed some more people with just a knife, half of the people on this thread would apparently not have considered it a tragedy worth discussing at all.

 

I'm with the people who feel that our handling of mental illness needs to change.  But I don't fool myself into believing that the government can prevent future tragedies.  We can only hope to intercept more of them than we currently do.

[albeto.]

No, there is not a single solution.

 

--We do need tighter gun regulations and better/more consistent enforcement of current regulations. However, to get to that point, the advocates of "just ban the guns/regulate them into nonexistence" have to accept that is not a realistic goal, and instead we need to focus on what can be corrected.

--In addition, we can't pretend it is only a gun problem.  We have a tremendous inequity in the quality and availability of mental health care that must also be addressed.

--Related to both of those issues, we have to come up with a workable way to restrict gun ownership from those who could be unstable.  This will mean we need a consistent way to define that legally, and to make sure the information is accessible to government agencies responsible for the licensing/registration of firearms. Unfortunately there are legitimate privacy concerns related to this issue which leads to conflict among advocacy groups who agree in principle on gun regulation.

 

To this list I would add

 

-- We need to change our collective view about justice from vengeance-oriented system to a preventative system

-- We need to change our media coverage from profitable sensationalism to objective reports of events

-- We need to change our collective opinion about human behavior, what inspires it and why some people don't have the same control as others

-- We need to stop glorifying violence (which, I think, is directly correlated with a vengeance-oriented justice system)

-- We need to educate children to know the difference between fact and opinion, so when information is presented, people know how to draw logical conclusions and not contribute to superstitious thinking or fear-mongering

[albeto.]

What's your plan, gun advocates?

 

I am really struggling right now.  I am struggling to figure out how I ever feel safe sending my children to the US for schooling or college.  Is it just a crap shoot you are all willing to take?  Maybe your child gets slaughtered, maybe she doesn't?  Or are you all arming your children to the teeth?  So that if and when the crazed gun man comes your child will engage him in a gun fight?  Or are you all out buying those cute little bullet proof backpacks for Johnny to take to school with him?

 

Really, what's your plan?  Continue as the country is continuing?  Being the laughing stock of the world for not being able to figure out the most basic rights of a citizenry - the right to be SAFE?

 

I really, really cannot wrap my mind around any argument that doesn't accept that the level of gun violence in the US is completely and totally unacceptable.  If we don't all start from that proposition, how do we move forward?

 

Feeling safe is a matter of opinion, but you can do things that affect your opinion. Arming yourself with information helps. How many people live in your town? How many have been killed by a vigilante gun-man? How many children go to school in the United States? How many have been killed at school? What is the percentage of risk? What is the percentage of risk from other events such as automobile accidents, fire, choking on food, the flu, etc? Know the facts. Gun homicide rate is down 49% since 1993. U.S. violent crime is down for the fifth straight year. Become informed. 

[albeto.]

 Everything wrong in his life was someone else's fault. He fancied himself "magnificent," "of superior intelligence," and "a god."

 

I agree with you. This thought process isn't indicative of autism. 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

To this list I would add

 

-- We need to change our collective view about justice from vengeance-oriented system to a preventative system

-- We need to change our media coverage from profitable sensationalism to objective reports of events

-- We need to change our collective opinion about human behavior, what inspires it and why some people don't have the same control as others

-- We need to stop glorifying violence (which, I think, is directly correlated with a vengeance-oriented justice system)

-- We need to educate children to know the difference between fact and opinion, so when information is presented, people know how to draw logical conclusions and not contribute to superstitious thinking or fear-mongering

 

I think your first suggestion meshes in a lot of ways with how we deal with mental illness. Unfortunately I see no chance of anything happening with the second, particularly due to the sensationalism that infects "alternative" media sources on the internet (infowars I am looking at you.)

[SadieMarie]

No, there is not a single solution.

 

--We do need tighter gun regulations and better/more consistent enforcement of current regulations. However, to get to that point, the advocates of "just ban the guns/regulate them into nonexistence" have to accept that is not a realistic goal, and instead we need to focus on what can be corrected.

--In addition, we can't pretend it is only a gun problem. We have a tremendous inequity in the quality and availability of mental health care that must also be addressed.

--Related to both of those issues, we have to come up with a workable way to restrict gun ownership from those who could be unstable. This will mean we need a consistent way to define that legally, and to make sure the information is accessible to government agencies responsible for the licensing/registration of firearms. Unfortunately there are legitimate privacy concerns related to this issue which leads to conflict among advocacy groups who agree in principle on gun regulation.

We have a very powerful gun lobby fighting any change in regulation, ANY change at all. They do not care about public safety. They do not care if innocent people are mown down. THEY DO NOT CARE. And even when people try to come up with solutions that might help in some small way, like smart guns that would only fire for the owner, those people are attacked and vilified.

 

I don't think most people who want regulations want to ban guns out of existence. I don't even think that is possible. But there are things we could at least try. We could look at it. We could talk about it. We could at least say to those parents like that father who lost his boy today that we want to try. And if you look at gun deaths in countries that have tighter regulations, well they have fewer of them. They do not have, for the most part, no gun deaths, but a lot fewer. It is not all or nothing. It is trying to prevent as many as we can.

 

I worked with two kids, when I was a social worker, who shot and killed other kids because they were playing with guns their parents had left unsecured. I was crouching in a stairway when this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Iowa_shooting and I think you might actually be surprised by how many people are touched by guns, even if they are the odds winners as far as not having their children actually shot.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

We have a very powerful gun lobby fighting any change in regulation, ANY change at all. They do not care about public safety. They do not care if innocent people are mown down. THEY DO NOT CARE. And even when people try to come up with solutions that might help in some small way, like smart guns that would only fire for the owner, those people are attacked and vilified.

 

I don't think most people who want regulations want to ban guns out of existence. I don't even think that is possible. But there are things we could at least try. We could look at it. We could talk about it. We could at least say to those parents like that father who lost his boy today that we want to try. And if you look at gun deaths in countries that have tighter regulations, well they have fewer of them. They do not have, for the most part, no gun deaths, but a lot fewer. It is not all or nothing. It is trying to prevent as many as we can.

 

I worked with two kids, when I was a social worker, who shot and killed other kids because they were playing with guns their parents had left unsecured. I was crouching in a stairway when this happened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Iowa_shooting and I think you might actually be surprised by how many people are touched by guns, even if they are the odds winners as far as not having their children actually shot.

 

First, smart guns aren't a great solution as we already have 300 million+ guns in circulation.

 

We also have to accept that our legislative process and the fact that gun ownership rights are enshrined to at least some degree in the 2nd Amendment is a factor in how we approach the issue.  None of this will be easy but it is doable, but getting sidetracked by non-starters (and I put smart guns in that category for now) will not help in the process.

[Laura Corin]

These conversations always leave me wondering what has changed from when I was young or what is different in these places from where I was raised.

 

I am from a small southern town and everyone had guns. We not only had guns but they were not locked up, most were loaded, and the ammunition was in plain sight as well. My own home was like most of my friends which meant the shotguns were on a rack on a wall with ammunition underneath and there was no lock. There were also loaded handguns kept in bedrooms and again not locked. I once had an 8 year old bring me her father's gun when I was babysitting because there was someone up to no good outside.

 

Yet we had zero school shootings. There was only one incident of an in house accidental shooting but they were teens playing Russian roulette. There were no little kids grabbing the guns and harming anyone. There were no teens taking their own or their parents' guns into the schools and shooting anyone. We had a few fist fights but that was it - never anything more violent.  My hometown has grown quite a bit but there have still been zero shootings in schools yet most still own guns.

 

I have a really hard time believing our issues are about access. FTR, I own no guns as an adult.

 

I think you make a good point.  My view is that  in the world where we live now, where instant gratification rules a large proportion of people's actions, guns are a menace.  

 

L

[[email protected]]

SKL and Cammie? Let it go.

 

The rest of you can keep on discussing, as long as it stays polite.

 

Moderator

[linders]

The reason for the massacre is screwed up parenting - if my child had mental illness and was seeing a couple of therapists and threatened to kill many people (for several weeks before the actual killing), I would go to him and bring him home and take care of him until he was well. I will not call the police to check on his welfare (most parents I know would do the same - bring the kid home - without a second thought). People who have better things to do when their kids are so mentally ill and helpless should not be procreating (sorry, I have family that are in the campus at UCSB right now and I was really scared for a while when this happened). The stabbed roommates are local to me and the news has been talking about them all day long :(

 

PS: All the killer's neighbors are saying that he did not like to socialize even when they tried to befriend him.

 

Unfortunately, if an adult child does not want to come home and be helped, you cannot force them. My BFF has gone through h**l the past 3 years as her DD has spiraled down with depression, anxiety disorder, and a recently-diagnosed autism spectrum issue. The DD routinely refuses to go to most of her counseling/psychiatrist appointments, and my friend and her DH have to forcibly drag her to the car. Two weeks ago she made a serious suicide attempt. After 3 days in the hospital, the psychiatrist released her (over my friend's pleas) because he felt she "had had a wakeup call and would be more cooperative in treatment now." The DD turns 18 in a few months, and my friend is frantic because it will be a further loss of any authority to help DD.

 

[poppy]

Meh. Most normal folks in the US don't worry about any of that either.

 

Let me again quote the man whose son was shot and killed by Elliot Rogers:

 

“Our family has a message for every family out there. You don’t think it will happen to your child, until it does,†Mr. Martinez said, almost shouting. “His death has left our family lost and broken.â€

“Why did Chris die?  Chris died because of craven, irresponsible politicians and the NRA. They talk about gun rights. What about Chris' right to live? When will this insanity stop? When will enough people say stop this madness,†Mr. Martinez said, ABC News reported.

“We should say to ourselves, not one more,†the distraught father said before walking off.

Source: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/25/dad-santa-barbara-victim-blames-craven-politicians/#ixzz32uXGsHs3

 

[Carrie12345]

Far more people die from gun violence than terrorism. Particularly in the US. It would make vastly more sense to worry about a child in the US dying from a gun related incident than being killed by terrorists.

 

 

And like I said, the likelihood of dying in a car accident is significantly greater.  Yet parents put their children in cars every day.

Well, most parents worry enough about the risks of auto death enough to purchase the safest car they can afford (built by companies with access to the greatest safety technologies) and use the safest restraints available to them (along with current information on proper use and best practices) and then, I assume, drive as safely as possible.

 

That obviously won't guarantee a lifetime of safety but parents, along with private and government agencies, are capable of improving their odds.  And there's an expectation that the overwhelming majority will do the same.

 

How is it that "we" gladly accept those safety measures, but "we" express so much outrage over safety measures on devices specifically designed and built to kill?

 

(I'm pro-gun and pro-car. With safety measures.)

[sewingmama]

I'll keep them in a country where people with mental illness don't have access to high capacity rifles, unlimited ammo and whatever the heck they feel like buying.

But would that really prevent tragedies if people are bent on carrying them out?

 

South Korea is one of the toughest countries I know about gun control ...even the police don't carry them. So instead a mentally ill person started a fire on a train and killed a ton of people that way instead.

 

The average person in Australia doesn't have access to guns but the Port Arthur massacre still happened.

 

Unfortunately....where there's a will there's a way.

 

Gun control might lesson spur of the moment killings but for those set on planning huge massacres it won't do much to stop them.

[poppy]

 

 

The average person in Australia doesn't have access to guns but the Port Arthur massacre still happened

That was when they had lax gun control. Then they changed it.

http://www.policymic.com/articles/21330/there-are-32-000-gun-deaths-a-year-in-the-u-s-here-is-how-we-get-that-number-to-zero

 

 

[Jasperstone]

The Sun Herald reported May 5 1996 that ex-Premier of NSW, Barry Unsworth made this prediction in 1987 - '"Before Uniform Gun Laws become possible in all States there will have to be a massacre in Tasmania".'

 

 

 

Hmmm, is it just me or does anyone else think the above is a tad bit suspicious?

 

Bingo, we have a shooting there, and then the whole of Australia gets tighter gun laws.

 

Wow, what a coincidence!!!

[poppy]

You are implying the Port Arthur massacre was a government conspiracy? That pretty disgusting.

 

 

Anyway. who would have thought a massacre of 20 young children wouldn't have been enough to make recreational gun users in the US want some change? Then again, some people think THAT was a government conspiracy too.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting_conspiracy_theories

 

You can't really have it both ways: 'can't do anything about crazy people!' and 'massacres are just an attempt to take our guns!' don't both work as arguments at the same time. Especially since neither one is convincing to most people with common sense.

[sewingmama]

The Sun Herald reported May 5 1996 that ex-Premier of NSW, Barry Unsworth made this prediction in 1987 - '"Before Uniform Gun Laws become possible in all States there will have to be a massacre in Tasmania".'

 

 

 

Hmmm, is it just me or does anyone else think the above is a tad bit suspicious?

 

Bingo, we have a shooting there, and then the whole of Australia gets tighter gun laws.

 

Wow, what a coincidence!!!

What are you saying? That the NSW Premier wanted tighter gun laws so he planned a massacre?

 

I can't fathom any Australian politician planning a massacre of Australian people....no...not even Tony Abbott LOL.

 

So yes..if he did say that then I would call coincidence...although it was probably a misquote taken out of context while talking about something else entirely.

 

I don't think any of our politicians are savvy enough to embark on conspiracies....look at the past Labour govt. They self-destructed just trying to stab each other in the back LOL.

 

I wouldn't credit them with enough brains to maintain a cover up like that.

[Jasperstone]

You are implying the Port Arthur massacre was a government conspiracy? That pretty disgusting.

 

_______________________________________________________

 

Just saying it is a bit weird. Not implying he set it up!

 

Read into it what you want. I just find it a bit random that it was spoken of like that, and then it happened to a remote part of Australia.

 

Maybe he should have taken up mind reading instead.

[Rivka]

This came across my FB feed, attributed to a Juniper Russo. It seems apropos to this discussion:

 

 

This is what the news for the last few days has looked like, to me:

 

Elliot Roger: "I hate women. I murdered people because I hate women."

 

Media: "Elliot Roger murdered people because he had autism and mental illness."

 

Elliot Roger: "No, actually, it was because I hate women. I wrote a 146-page essay explaining this to you."

 

Media: "Must have been autism, right? Autistic people are super dangerous."

 

Elliot Roger: "But I didn't do it because of autism! I did it because I hate women!"

 

Media: "Or it could have been because he had depression. People with depression are also super dangerous."

 

Elliot Roger: "No, it wasn't because of depression! I spent months of my pathetic life writing a manifesto about how much I hate women, so that there would be no question about why I did it. Why aren't you listening?"

 

Media: "What if we took guns away from people with mental illness or autism? Wouldn't that be a good idea? Or should we just lock Those People away entirely?"