Santa Barbara shooting

[SKL]

I have opinions on this but I do not want to make it sound like I don't consider this incident to be a terrible tragedy.  I sure wish that man didn't have a gun in his hand that day.  Or a knife.  Or car keys.

 

From what I've heard so far, I think this falls into the category of "sometimes bad, horrible things are going to happen despite everything."

 

One person randomly died because a mentally ill person had a gun in his hand that day.  But many people randomly die in car accidents every day.  Of course if you are the parent of the person who died, it is not random and you want to blame someone, something, and you want to change something.  I'm sorry for the grief of the families involved, but the NRA and the 2nd Amendment supporters are not at fault here.

 

I would support a ban on ordinary citizens buying weapons that can shoot many times in rapid succession.  And I definitely support laws that prevent people with certain mental illnesses from owning guns.  The latter is not simple in practice, unfortunately.

 

Directing anger at people who believe in the general right to own guns is just foolish IMO.  There are an awful lot of guns in private citizens' hands that have never been, and never will be, used to hurt a human.  There are also cases of homeowners using guns to protect themselves and their kids against armed intruders.  Who knows, maybe those homeowners' guns saved innocent lives.

[Truscifi]

How would this help the 3 young men he killed with a knife?

 

:huh:

 

Of course it wouldn't. Stricter gun control laws wouldn't stop all violent crime. But they could reduce gun crimes, and I'm okay with that as a partial solution while we try to figure out the other societal issues too.

[kubiac]

[deleted]

[Starr]

Well, I guarantee he didn't pay for his BMW, his fancy computer and probably that apartment and his college tuition using his hard-earned money from his job delivering papers. This kid was being massively subsidized from what I can tell. Maybe it was how the parents kept any semblance of control over him, but in retrospect you do wish that they'd given a little less and demanded a littl more.

 

Really? He killed people because he was rich?

[poppy]

One person randomly died because a mentally ill person had a gun in his hand that day.

 

I blame the car deaths on the guns  too.... it doesn't seem likely  he would have gone out on a spree of death, or nursed such elaborate revenge fantasies, if he wasn't well armed (and didn't have a very easy "out", too). The guns he purchased and used must have been a factor in empowering him.

[SKL]

What on EARTH makes the fact that he used knife make the shootings OK?

 

I'm pretty sure nobody said or thought that the shootings were OK.

 

The fact is that this man decided to go murder some people and he used whatever means he had available.  Not having a gun would not have stopped him from murdering multiple people that day.  It might have made it harder to kill himself, though.

 

[poppy]

I'm pretty sure nobody said or thought that the shootings were OK.

 

The fact is that this man decided to go murder some people and he used whatever means he had available.  Not having a gun would not have stopped him from murdering multiple people that day.  It might have made it harder to kill himself, though.

 

 

If the question is, how could we still be OK with the NRA culture we live in after Sandy Hook (dead six year olds), and the answers is, well he stabbed people too.....  I take that answer to mean, well, guns were a non issue here. Many of us vehemently disagree.

 

 

 

400 rounds of ammunition in his car left after his shooting spree.  You're OK with that?

[SKL]

I blame the car deaths on the guns  too.... it doesn't seem likely  he would have gone out on a spree of death, or nursed such elaborate revenge fantasies, if he wasn't well armed (and didn't have a very easy "out", too). The guns he purchased and used must have been a factor in empowering him.

 

There were no car deaths in this incident AFAIK.  But it would be very easy to kill using a car if you wanted to, gun or no gun.  Just ram your car into a busy market.  If you are out to mass murder, that would be an easy way to do it.

[poppy]

There were no car deaths in this incident AFAIK.  But it would be very easy to kill using a car if you wanted to, gun or no gun.  Just ram your car into a busy market.  If you are out to mass murder, that would be an easy way to do it.

 

Yet in countries without guns like ours, it doesn't happen.

 

We are the only country that shrugs off mass murder sprees.

[SKL]

If the question is, how could we still be OK with the NRA culture we live in after Sandy Hook (dead six year olds), and the answers is, well he stabbed people too.....  I take that answer to mean, well, guns were a non issue here. Many of us vehemently disagree.

 

 

 

400 rounds of ammunition in his car left after his shooting spree.  You're OK with that?

 

I said I believed ordinary citizens should be banned from buying guns that can shoot many times in rapid succession.

 

Putting words in other people's mouths is completely unhelpful.

 

This man was a lunatic and his insanity should not dictate the way everyone else lives.

[SKL]

Yet in countries without guns like ours, it doesn't happen.

 

We are the only country that shrugs off mass murder sprees.

 

Yes it does happen in countries with stricter gun control.

 

I don't see us shrugging off mass murder sprees, I see us sensationalizing them and probably encouraging more that way.

[SKL]

If the question is, how could we still be OK with the NRA culture we live in after Sandy Hook (dead six year olds), and the answers is, well he stabbed people too.....  I take that answer to mean, well, guns were a non issue here. Many of us vehemently disagree.

 

 

 

400 rounds of ammunition in his car left after his shooting spree.  You're OK with that?

 

What exactly is "the NRA culture we live in"?

 

I only know one NRA member.  He is one of the most peaceful men I know.  He believes in a ban on semiautomatic weapons for private citizens.  Is this the culture you speak of?

 

Guns are not banned in my state.  I could go buy a gun right now with no trouble.  Nobody talks about guns except occasionally with respect to sport.  There is no gun violence against humans around here, and certainly no tolerance for it.  Is this the culture you speak of?

 

[mirth]

1. I have seen a close family member involuntarily committed. The process was not as time consuming, complex, and filled with drama as some would make it sound.

 

2. Parents can certainly offer and/or strongly insist their child come back home whenever they think something is wrong. They can cut off money to the kid.

 

3. I don't think any less of Crimson Wife and think she knows better how to advocate for her own children than anyone else does.

 

4. A murderer is just a creepy version of a human. This is the hardest part of everything to accept.

 

5. Stop labeling all these killers as crazy as if the idea of evil is just for fairy tales. They write papers. They produce videos. They calculate. They conceal. They somehow manage never to lose it at a police station, Ladies Handgun League, the gun store where they bought these guns, or at the range. Schools. Schools are gun free zones. I don't even believe schools can maintain peanut free zones. No one does, or else no one would insist on Epipens there.

[SKL]

I'm guessing that if you look at the population of people who have used guns violently against humans, the % of them who are NRA members would be extremely small.

[poppy]

I'm guessing that if you look at the population of people who have used guns violently against humans, the % of them who are NRA members would be extremely small.

 

I'm certain you're correct.   It's not that NRA members are killers. It's just that they promote laws that allow unrestricted access to ammunition and weapons without commonsense regulations.  Which enables tragedies such as this one.

[SadieMarie]

Yes it does happen in countries with stricter gun control.

 

 

It doesn't happen as frequently.  

 

http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/interactive/2012/jul/22/gun-ownership-homicides-map

[SadieMarie]

I'm guessing that if you look at the population of people who have used guns violently against humans, the % of them who are NRA members would be extremely small.

 

I am guessing you are correct.  However, the NRA is a well funded and thus powerful lobbyist organization representing the interests of people who make money from guns.  Public safety is not a concern of the NRA, at least not anymore.  

 

ETA:  Here is a link to a story about a campaign robo call that went out in the area the day after the shooting.  Any candidate that supports gun regulation, even at a very, very, limited level, is going to have the full might of the NRA and it's money come out against them.  It doesn't even matter if the regulations are supported by polls of gun owners.  Republicans who do not toe the NRA line are especially vulnerable.  

 

http://www.santaclarita.com/blog/view.php?blog_entry_id=31138

 

Here is an article about polls showing that NRA MEMBERS are not opposed to ALL gun regulation.

 

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/apr/04/lee-leffingwell/lee-leffingwell-says-polls-show-90-percent-america/

 

The NRA may have started as a club/organization for gun enthusiasts and hunters but that is not what it is anymore.

 

[Danestress]

1. I have seen a close family member involuntarily committed. The process was not as time consuming, complex, and filled with drama as some would make it sound.

.

It's not that hard to have an involuntary emergency commitment. It is harder to extend that commitment, and typically much more difficult and time consuming to get a guardianship or declaration of incompetence.  I am not sure the facts would have been there, nor am I sure it would have helped. But we will probably learn more over time.

[Farrar]

Can I ask...  was he actually on the spectrum as the OP said?  None of the reports seem to be saying that.

 

I know the conversation moved on, but I still can't believe anyone blamed the parents.  Sometimes parenting is a factor in things, but for the most part, there but for the grace of God go any of us.  Anyone could end up with a mentally ill adult child.  Anyone could try their hardest and fail with that child.

[VeteranMom]

There is so much untreated mental illness in this country.  Until we change laws and keep tighter tabs on the mentally ill, the problem is only going to get bigger.  We can't ban things from the mentally healthy population in order to create an illusion of safety.  Someone who is determined to kill others due to mental illness will find a way.

[Crimson Wife]

Still sound like a benign, harmless comment?

 

I find your post offensive and inciteful of bigotry and cruelty. If I were to connect an absent-minded, ignorant, self-important correlation between Christians and sociopathy, I wonder how well that would be received. 

 

For your information, I have a child with autism. So I am absolutely NOT bigoted against those "on the spectrum". Unlike yourself, who has shown NUMEROUS times on this forum that you have a MAJOR chip on your shoulder (to put it mildly) against religion in general and Christianity in particular.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

There is so much untreated mental illness in this country. Until we change laws and keep tighter tabs on the mentally ill, the problem is only going to get bigger. We can't ban things from the mentally healthy population in order to create an illusion of safety. Someone who is determined to kill others due to mental illness will find a way.

 

What kind of tighter tabs? Who would that include? Me for having taken anti depressants? My 2E child? The mom hospitalized for ppd after her child was born?

 

Who are the crazy mass murderers?

 

Sure, they are easy to identify in hindsight.

 

We need to treat mental illness. Well.

 

We need to regulate (not ban) weapons better.

 

Specific to this case we need to raise our sons to know their masculinity isn't dependent on sexual conquests. That women don't owe them anything and have nothing to do with their value as a man.

 

And more.

 

It's not simply some crazy guy.

[SadieMarie]

Well, I guarantee he didn't pay for his BMW, his fancy computer and probably that apartment and his college tuition using his hard-earned money from his job delivering papers. This kid was being massively subsidized from what I can tell. Maybe it was how the parents kept any semblance of control over him, but in retrospect you do wish that they'd given a little less and demanded a littl more.

 

This makes no sense to me.  Having too much stuff from your parents can turn you into a mass murderer?  Is this what you are saying?  If they made him have a paper route he would have turned out OK?  

[Laurie]

If the question is, how could we still be OK with the NRA culture we live in after Sandy Hook (dead six year olds), and the answers is, well he stabbed people too.....  I take that answer to mean, well, guns were a non issue here. Many of us vehemently disagree.

 

 

 

 

 

Let's not forget the Hollywood culture we live in and its love of violence, including gun violence.    I don't know if the NRA makes movies and tv shows to entertain us with gun violence.  I think I saw something a few years ago about a gun safety program they made for kids. 

 

 

[QueenCat]

  Asperger's does not cause people to be violent at all but now some people may assume that it does.

 

This is why it upsets me when emphasis is put on this, when some with AS does something. Plenty of people that are "neurotypical" commit violent crimes but the newscasters and media do not say "He did not have any neurological issues". They only point out those that do, even if the issue has nothing to do with the crime.

[poppy]

Let's not forget the Hollywood culture we live in and its love of violence, including gun violence.    I don't know if the NRA makes movies and tv shows to entertain us with gun violence.  I think I saw something a few years ago about a gun safety program they made for kids. 

 

The NRA did put out a handy list of "coolest gun movies."

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/the-nra-thinks-these-are-the-coolest-gun-movies-ever

This was after Sandy Hook, by the way.

 

People use guns for recreation and enjoy seeing movies with guns.....these two facts are not unrelated.

[SadieMarie]

http://www.futureswithoutviolence.org/userfiles/Gun%20Fact%20Sheet_FINAL%2003%2003%2013.pdf

 

Mass killings are just a tiny portion of the problem.

[freesia]

I had not heard that yet.  I understand what you're saying.  Asperger's does not cause people to be violent at all but now some people may assume that it does.

Ok, this is something I've wanted to ask about but truly just because I want to be educated and not bc I am prejudiced. My background: I worked summers in high school and college in a school for autistic children, I as a classroom teacher for 10 years and taught ASD children. I have several friends with children who were diagnosed with Asperger. I have nannied for a child with Asperger as well. I run a co-op where I work out support plans for ASD children so they can be successful in our classes. In my experience, many ASD children do have very violent outbursts. I have scars on my arms from such outbursts. My son has been kicked violently by an ASD child bc my son accidentally brushed the boys shoulder and it was interpreted as an attack. I have seen children with Asperger bite and hit their parents during a meltdown. All these incidents have always been attributed to the Asperger/ASD. But now I keep hearing it is not a violent disorder. I am truly confused. Please don't flame me because I truly am trying to understand something that differs from my experience.

[Laurie]

Can I ask...  was he actually on the spectrum as the OP said?  None of the reports seem to be saying that.

 

I know the conversation moved on, but I still can't believe anyone blamed the parents.  Sometimes parenting is a factor in things, but for the most part, there but for the grace of God go any of us.  Anyone could end up with a mentally ill adult child.  Anyone could try their hardest and fail with that child.

 

I have read that he had Asperger Syndrome and has been seeing therapists for years because of mental health issues. 

 

I don't care if this is an adult child.  I can't imagine going on with my daily routine after seeing suicidal/homicidal videos that my own "kid" has made...my kid who has known problems and has been seeing therapists for years.  I would be camped out on his doorstep, or sitting in my car "stalking" him just as he reports to have stalked the sorority house even before the day of the shooting.   I am not the kind of person who thinks the police need to do the searching when I would have no problem doing my own snooping in the apartment to see what in the heck is going on with him and is he keeping weapons, illegal drugs, etc.  And I would sure like to know if the parents talked to the roommates...to ask them about behavior, to ask them to call them right away if they notice anything, and especially to let them know that they are living with someone who is sick and might be dangerous.   They would at least have had the chance to get out of a bad situation, and who would blame them?   

 

When I was attending an autism parent support group we had a neurologist tell us that our kids most likely wouldn't be ready to launch at 18.   And I take that seriously....this kind of parenting doesn't end when your kid just happens to turn 21.    

 

[VeteranMom]

What kind of tighter tabs? Who would that include? Me for having taken anti depressants? My 2E child? The mom hospitalized for ppd after her child was born?

 

Who are the crazy mass murderers?

 

Sure, they are easy to identify in hindsight.

 

We need to treat mental illness. Well.

 

We need to regulate (not ban) weapons better.

 

Specific to this case we need to raise our sons to know their masculinity isn't dependent on sexual conquests. That women don't owe them anything and have nothing to do with their value as a man.

 

And more.

 

It's not simply some crazy guy.

Unfortunately, the mental health issues aren't easy ones to solve.  I've been involved in many situations where a person is evaluated for the possibility of harming himself/herself or others. There are no straight forward ways to handle the problem.  It's not black and white.  Going after gun sales and putting more bans in place is an easier "problem" to tackle, so that's what people are going to look at controlling.  The mental health problems are a human issue and much harder to regulate than firearms.  I don't believe going after the guns is going to solve the problem.      

[Carrie75]

Yet in countries without guns like ours, it doesn't happen.

 

We are the only country that shrugs off mass murder sprees.

 

Really??? This guy got just 20 years prison time for killing almost 80 people!

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-shooter-anders-breivik-smiles-21-year-prison/story?id=17072142

 

Crimes like this happen all over the world.

[Venia]

Well, here is my perspective..... This person had legally obtained three registered firearms, 400 rounds of ammunition and lived in in CA. CA happens to have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the US. Background checks, large capacity magazine bans, no fully-automatics, mandatory waiting periods, lawful sale, etc, etc etc. Restrictions that make sense to a lot of people.

 

If restrictive guns laws represented a lesser incidence of violence, then CA should rank near the bottom. It does not, its near the top. Neither is there any connection to reduced rates of violence with accessibility/rates legal ownership of guns in the US. For example Washington DC has has a gun ownership rate on less than 4% ( CA has around 20%), DC ranks number one for violence/murders . States with the least restrictive gun laws rank average to low on the violence scale. This is just pure data, no NRA, no AGCA. That is what is truly scary. No matter how many regulations are in place, it has NO effect on making violent people, less violent or protecting innocent bystanders from meeting tragic ends by violent people. I don't have the answer, but it seems to wasteful to keep pushing for regulations that have no effect. In fact, it makes me more angry that as a society we cant seem to push past the "easy route" answers to address these difficult questions.

[Pawz4me]

We all like to think we as parents would have done better in the same situation.  Armchair quaterbacking is like that.

 

I'm reminded of Virginia state senator Creigh Deeds, who was stabbed and almost killed by his own son, the morning after he had taken the son in for a psych evaluation and no bed was available to keep him.  So Senator Deeds had no choice but to bring his son back home.  Even knowing how unstable his son was, he still wasn't able to prevent the attack or his son's suicide.

 

I just don't think this is a situation where it's fair to say "the parents didn't do this or that" or "I would have done this or that and prevented the incident."  Formulating a plan in hindsight and when you're not emotionally involved is really, really easy.  In real time, when it's someone you love very much I'm guessing it's much more difficult to really see the situation clearly.  I think no one can know how they would handle a similar situation.  I'm guessing it's very hard to imagine or accept that your child is really capable of doing something horrible.

[SadieMarie]

I have read that he had Asperger Syndrome and has been seeing therapists for years because of mental health issues. 

 

I don't care if this is an adult child.  I can't imagine going on with my daily routine after seeing suicidal/homicidal videos that my own "kid" has made...my kid who has known problems and has been seeing therapists for years.  I would be camped out on his doorstep, or sitting in my car "stalking" him just as he reports to have stalked the sorority house even before the day of the shooting.   I am not the kind of person who thinks the police need to do the searching when I would have no problem doing my own snooping in the apartment to see what in the heck is going on with him and is he keeping weapons, illegal drugs, etc.  And I would sure like to know if the parents talked to the roommates...to ask them about behavior, to ask them to call them right away if they notice anything, and especially to let them know that they are living with someone who is sick and might be dangerous.   They would at least have had the chance to get out of a bad situation, and who would blame them?   

 

When I was attending an autism parent support group we had a neurologist tell us that our kids most likely wouldn't be ready to launch at 18.   And I take that seriously....this kind of parenting doesn't end when your kid just happens to turn 21.    

 

Maybe the parents should be put on trial since the son is dead.  Maybe parents should be legally responsible forever for what their offspring do, good or bad.  We would could raise the age of legal adulthood to, I don't know, how about forty?  These kinds of killings seem to be carried out mostly by people under forty I think.  Those of us with children who have diagnoses could just follow our adult children wherever they go and make sure they are not getting guns to shoot people.  

 

I just don't get these kinds of comments I guess.  Parents do not have control over their adult children. Or more accurately, they have the control those adult children are willing to allow.   What if your son did not want you in his apartment and didn't give you access?  You would break in?  Because then you would be the one being arrested.  If an adult does not want another adult stalking them, even if it is their parent, they can get a restraining order and then again, you are the one who gets arrested.  

 

How many people go on the internet and spew vitriol?  Do they all go out and kill people?   I just don't believe that parents can stop this stuff, though I think they would if they had a way to do so.  

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Unfortunately, the mental health issues aren't easy ones to solve. I've been involved in many situations where a person is evaluated for the possibility of harming himself/herself or others. There are no straight forward ways to handle the problem. It's not black and white. Going after gun sales and putting more bans in place is an easier "problem" to tackle, so that's what people are going to look at controlling. The mental health problems are a human issue and much harder to regulate than firearms. I don't believe going after the guns is going to solve the problem.

I agree the mental health issue is not simple, at all. It's highly complex with many contributing factors. And it is only one piece of the complex puzzle inherent in this situation.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If the question is, how could we still be OK with the NRA culture we live in after Sandy Hook (dead six year olds), and the answers is, well he stabbed people too.....  I take that answer to mean, well, guns were a non issue here. Many of us vehemently disagree.

 

 

 

400 rounds of ammunition in his car left after his shooting spree.  You're OK with that?

 

I am not sure why the number of rounds he had left in the car is an issue.  No reasonable gun control laws I have seen have included restrictions on the amount of ammunition that can be purchased. In addition, the handguns he used are not ones that would generally be banned (nor do I think they should be.)

[Reefgazer]

Parents of adult children really can't do anything to force the offspring into treatment, no more than they can force him to pay his debts or treat his dog with care.  I'm not convinced poor parenting is to blame, either, but can see where it may be.

The reason for the massacre is screwed up parenting - if my child had mental illness and was seeing a couple of therapists and threatened to kill many people (for several weeks before the actual killing), I would go to him and bring him home and take care of him until he was well. I will not call the police to check on his welfare (most parents I know would do the same - bring the kid home - without a second thought). People who have better things to do when their kids are so mentally ill and helpless should not be procreating (sorry, I have family that are in the campus at UCSB right now and I was really scared for a while when this happened). The stabbed roommates are local to me and the news has been talking about them all day long :(

 

PS: All the killer's neighbors are saying that he did not like to socialize even when they tried to befriend him.

 

[SKL]

It seems to me that, from what I've heard so far, the breakdown occurred where the parents called the police worried that the son was going to commit violence - having evidence (videos) of intent - and for some reason the police local to where the son lived never got that information.

 

If this young man had "only" knifed three men to death, this still would be an awful tragedy.  What can we do about this?  Should police have been able to search this young man's residence at least?  On what basis?  What precedent should be set here?

[Mrs Mungo]

I'm guessing the police didn't search at the time they visited his house because they didn't have a warrant, didn't have reason enough to get a warrant (judges will want to see good reasons), and because the guy didn't give them verbal permission to search. (We have this little constitutional problem of unreasonable search and seizure that they have to abide by)

 

The videos came out later. The therapist saw the video, called the mother, who then (with the father) called the Isla Vista police and raced up there. They heard about the shootings in the car on the way. Even though the police were notified, they wouldn't have had time to find the guy and restrain him.

That is not my understanding of the timeline. My understanding of the timeline (which could be faulty) is that one set of videos came out a month ago and he sent the therapist a crazy email. Therapist called mom, mom called the police, that's when the police went to the house *without watching the videos that triggered the request*. That was a month ago. A *different* video came out, that's when the parents called 911 and got in the car and drove down there. I know that it's easy to say what someone should have done in hindsight. But, I think *in general* the police should have investigated more thoroughly a month ago. If they had done so *then*, they might have found reason for an involuntary commitment.

 

 

When someone goes off the deep end, all the intervention in the world may make no difference. If you haven't been in a situation like this, you may not fully appreciate how helpless family members and professionals may be, even if everyone desperately wants a good outcome. Even if they try everything. Sometimes there is literally *nothing* that can be done.

I absolutely have seen a situation like this up close and personal.

 

 

It's incredibly frustrating and sad, but I don't think blaming the parents or the police or the therapist is the way to go.

 

I wasn't. I was blaming the police for not basically blowing the parents off and not actually investigating.

 

 

 

Here is an article about polls showing that NRA MEMBERS are not opposed to ALL gun regulation.

 

My dh is a member of the NRA and supports certain types of gun control.

 

 

This is why it upsets me when emphasis is put on this, when some with AS does something. Plenty of people that are "neurotypical" commit violent crimes but the newscasters and media do not say "He did not have any neurological issues". They only point out those that do, even if the issue has nothing to do with the crime.

But, I think the point out whatever makes someone "different" than your average person. They are a veteran, they were homeschooled, they attended the local alternative high school, they were a pastor's kid, etc. The tactic is designed to make everyone else feel more safe, like it can't happen to them. Their kid isn't a veteran/homeschooled/public schooled/gamer/whatever.

[OneStepAtATime]

Yet in countries without guns like ours, it doesn't happen.

 

We are the only country that shrugs off mass murder sprees.

Sadly, this statement is simply not true.  There are several countries where mass murder sprees barely make headlines.  And in certain circumstances are considered justified and not a crime.  Life in many societies is NOT valued.  And there are many in our society who do not shrug this off.  Many are horrified.   But agreement on how to fix the problem is challenging since there are many different views on the best path.  Why so many views?  Because this issue, IMHO, is far more complex than just tightening gun laws can address.  I wish tightening gun laws WOULD fix the issue, permanently.  That would be great if the issue could be fixed that simply.  I just don't think it can.

 

Irregardless of what my feelings are on our society's reaction to mass killings and gun control and how it played out with the incident in Santa Barbara, the bigger issue seems to me to include a lot of people who are disconnected from themselves, their families, and society.  People who are heart sick.  Whether that is from mental illness, poor parenting, bad societal circumstances or whatever the original cause...  And our society feeds that.  The focus is almost exclusively on surface not on inner well being and a connection to those around us.  Some find that connection through a faith.  Some find it through other sources.  But if those connections are not formed or are damaged, then the emptiness and sometimes anger can be overwhelming.  And sometimes people snap.  But I am not a psychologist so my interpretation of all these incidents could be way off.  It just seems that so many that I know IRL that are sad or angry seem disconnected to others and lonely and can't seem to find a way to make or fix those connections.  

 

That is a DIFFERENT situation from being an introvert, by the way.  It is all well and good to look at this man after the fact and say he didn't socialize and that was a huge indicator that he was going to kill.  However, I have a LOT of introverts in my family.  My mother and brother are not very social.  But they are also extremely sweet and kind and loving.  They would never hurt anyone.  But if you asked their neighbors about them there would be maybe two people who actually knew them.  What would the others say?  "They aren't very social.  I never see them with other people." 

[poppy]

Really??? This guy got just 20 years prison time for killing almost 80 people!

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/norway-shooter-anders-breivik-smiles-21-year-prison/story?id=17072142

 

Crimes like this happen all over the world.

 

Before I clicked I thought "I bet it's gonna be that one guy from Norway".

I  was right!

I don't think you can seriously compare one horrible tragedy with our sad stream of campus shootings, military base shootings, drive-bys, rampage killers like this guy, school student shootings and the tragedy of 'accidental' shootings of children in thier own homes with badly secured guns.

[SKL]

Before I clicked I thought "I bet it's gonna be that one guy from Norway".

I  was right!

I don't think you can seriously compare one horrible tragedy with our sad stream of campus shootings, military base shootings, drive-bys, rampage killers like this guy, school student shootings and the tragedy of 'accidental' shootings of children in thier own homes with badly secured guns.

 

There are many mass killings and individual killings around the world that don't make it to US TV.  There are many murders around the world that aren't even treated as murders.  Many, many.

 

Just because the US TV news broadcasts US tragedies all day and all night (and even then they are selective about which ones) does not mean what you see is an accurate picture of what's happening around the world.

 

I think the self-hate that is often encouraged in America ("we" are violent, "we" don't care, "we" are the worst....) is very disturbing.  In fact, I think it adds to the problems we see.

[Moxie]

When things like this happen, it is so tempting to try to place blame (mental illness, access to weapons, religion, etc.). It makes everyone feel like they are "doing something to help".

 

But as long as there are people in the world, there is no way to stop stuff like this. Some people can be pretty shitty. That is just a fact.

[Kathryn]

Has anyone read the guy's "manifesto?" I'm a little over halfway through it. This guy has had huge problems for a long time. I'm seeing lots of missed opportunities for intervention over the years.

[Mrs Mungo]

The fact that rampage killings have happened in other countries does not *at all* alleviate a need to do something about the *stream* of rampage killings in the US. As far as other countries are concerned, the vast majority of those in recent years have taken place in countries with little rule of law-Yemen, Uganda, Colombia, places where terrorist cells, drug cartels and warlords rule most of the country. Are those the countries we want to be lumped with? Can't we do better than that?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

You can't just up and get help for your ill family member, whether it is your child or your parent or your cousin or your spouse. We don't really have the power to have people committed on nothing more than our say-so, and we don't really have the right to stalk and imprison people who have not committed crimes, even if we are afraid they might commit a crime.

You can't start watching mentally ill people more so they never snap when you can't really diagnose someone as "likely to commit mass murder" which means you'll start to control innocent people who have some sort of diagnosis AND who will submit to your fascism because they intend to be law-abiding people and were not the problem in the first place...and what do you think that will do, in this absolute epidemic age of autism, toward encouraging parents to get help when they need help with their children?
 

Which leads to my third point: Blaming the parents. We are getting very knee-jerky in this country about blaming the parents. Sometimes their involvement OR neglect are very clear to see, but mostly people who are not themselves criminals do seek help when their child is in trouble. Again, for those who have never been through this with a parent or a child, you'd be astounded how hard it can be to get help. What you usually get is an appointment for weeks or even months in the future. Other approaches can be tried, depending on the need, but my point is that there is not some sort of Sanity Squad always at the ready to "just do something professional" for someone who is in mental trouble. If we demonize parents automatically, before all the facts are even in, we will discourage parents from seeking help at all.

There have been times in the history of the world, and it's still true in some places now, when everybody odd or crazy is just locked up for society's own good. I daresay many on this board can attest to the evils of that, especially those of us who have loved ones whose controlled conditions (thanks to today's medical advances) who absolutely would have been imprisoned without compassion in the past.

We have to be careful. Soooooo many children with Asperger's and autism, now, and sooooo many in the future. We must hold the line and not allow them to be treated like an undesirable, violent element. There is no good outcome to that attitude in a society that has lost its reasoning skills.

[SKL]

My friends who have come from other countries were often shocked at first to find that the Americans they now live among are far from the violent, aggressive, gun-toting caricature that they heard about.  In many cases they've told me this is a much more peaceful country then theirs - in different ways, for different reasons.  No, it isn't perfect, nobody says it is.

[Mrs Mungo]

You can't just up and get help for your ill family member, whether it is your child or your parent or your cousin or your spouse. We don't really have the power to have people committed on nothing more than our say-so, and we don't really have the right to stalk and imprison people who have not committed crimes, even if we are afraid they might commit a crime.

I don't at all disagree. But, it sounds like his initial set of videos (which, according to my understanding, were taken down by youtube soon after they were posted a month ago and before this happened) were threatening in nature. That is a crime in and of itself, if true. If the police had investigated, then the authorities might have been able to act in a manner that saved lives.

[SKL]

The fact that rampage killings have happened in other countries does not *at all* alleviate a need to do something about the *stream* of rampage killings in the US. As far as other countries are concerned, the vast majority of those in recent years have taken place in countries with little rule of law-Yemen, Uganda, Colombia, places where terrorist cells, drug cartels and warlords rule most of the country. Are those the countries we want to be lumped with? Can't we do better than that?

 

I completely agree that we need to do something.  I don't agree with your other information - there are mass killings and many unrecorded murders in peaceful, gun-controlling countries such as India and China etc. etc.  Guns don't make people decide to go out and kill people.  Gun control doesn't make people peaceful or gentle at heart.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't at all disagree. But, it sounds like his initial set of videos (which, according to my understanding, were taken down by youtube soon after they were posted a month ago and before this happened) were threatening in nature. That is a crime in and of itself, if true. If the police had investigated, then the authorities might have been able to act in a manner that saved lives.

I should have been more specific. This case, there are journals, videos, creeped-out people, actual crimes, all of that "trail" leading to tragedy. I meant to speak more generally about when this happens and nobody knows anything, but the cries of "Bad parenting! Aspergers! Homeschooled! Video games!" start up right away.