"The Duggars' 7 Tips for keeping your marriage sexy"

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

Thanks! I have watched some of their shows, and read their book.. still I cannot say yes alot... I have endometriosis and have too much pain : PMS, and other issues related throughout the month.  I am scared but need to have a hysterectomy. The only thing dh is worried about is my sex drive!  So, I guess I should be glad he is honest.  Still, the Bible does say to respect each other and Love each other.  Compromise on both parts is essential to a lasting marriage.  

 

  I love the Tommy Nelson teaching I saw many moons ago about sex.  He did clearly state that men will have nights of misery and they just need to hug that bedpost!

 

Kevin Leman also has some great pointers... such as running a bubble bath, getting kids in bed, lighting candles... and still just hoping for a yes.but accepting a no.

[Entropymama]

I was reading through the comments while they were deleted. It was quite disoriented clicking on page 5 and nothing making sense so going back a page and not seeing anything I had just read. Very annoying. This seems to happen too often with no explanation. I already feel guilty wasting time reading these threads now I feel like I really wasted time because I read a convo that doesn't actually exist😋

 

I'm glad this came up. I keep seeing quoted comments, but I never read the actual comment, and then I go back to see where I missed it and it's gone.. 

 

At least I know I'm not crazy. 

 

And I am seriously loving this thread. 

 

I'm freaking out a little bit though, because I remember DH taking a Bill Gothard course in high school. Leadership something. It's even occurred to me through the years to pull up some of his stuff for the kids, but I never actually did it. Apparently I have no idea what he's really about. 

[Entropymama]

Thanks! I have watched some of their shows, and read their book.. still I cannot say yes alot... I have endometriosis and have too much pain : PMS, and other issues related throughout the month.  I am scared but need to have a hysterectomy. The only thing dh is worried about is my sex drive!  So, I guess I should be glad he is honest.  Still, the Bible does say to respect each other and Love each other.  Compromise on both parts is essential to a lasting marriage.  

 

  I love the Tommy Nelson teaching I saw many moons ago about sex.  He did clearly state that men will have nights of misery and they just need to hug that bedpost!

 

Kevin Leman also has some great pointers... such as running a bubble bath, getting kids in bed, lighting candles... and still just hoping for a yes.but accepting a no.

I'm having trouble with this one because as far as I know Tommy Nelson produces kids videos! HAHAHA!

 

I'm going to suggest the bubble bath idea to DH. :)

[8circles]

I am SO glad I kept reading before responding to your "straw man" post. I took your post as Momoflaw did and could NOT for the life of me understand why you were dismissing her valid correction with a random fallacy alert. :D

  

I'm quoting you to respond to albeto's quote since its gone to point out that yes, we are good. :)

Forget about PMs. I'll just tell you. :D

If I'm thinking of the right thing, albeto posted a comment and a few people took it the wrong way. A few posts went back and forth, and in a short while, it was agreed upon that albeto hadn't meant her comment in the way that it had been interpreted, and all was well.

It really wasn't a big deal, and it was resolved very quickly. That's why it seems so odd that posts were removed.

Yes, this was totally not a big deal - a pure misreading followed by miscommunication. So odd.

[Catwoman]

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure at least one of my posts were deleted, too.

I don't know if any of my posts were deleted and I'm too lazy to go look.

[Mom in High Heels]

I don't know if any of my posts were deleted and I'm too lazy to go look.

 

Because you're too busy like whoring yourself out!

[Carrie12345]

How is this in the category of need?  People need to eat on some sort of regular basis otherwise they'll get sick and or die.  But sex?  How is that the same?  They may WANT it.  They may WANT it a lot. 

I messed up my quoting.  Oops. Haven't fully met my coffee needs yet this morning!

 

Psychologists put it on the needs list. Wiki has an explanation, fwiw:

"Air, water, and food are metabolic requirements for survival in all animals, including humans. Clothing and shelter provide necessary protection from the elements. While maintaining an adequate birth rate shapes the intensity of the human sexual instinct, sexual competition may also shape said instinct."

 

"Need" in the context of this current thread is obviously debatable.  From a wider perspective, it makes perfect sense to me.

Just because I can control when, what, and how much food I eat doesn't make it less of a need.

Just because I can be a nudist in the Carribean doesn't make clothing/shelter less of an overall human need.

Just because I have the option to abstain from sex without dying doesn't make it less of an instinct that begs (to varying degrees, lol) to be heeded. It isn't something invented, like an iPhone that people long for. Or fudgy brownies that we might crave.  EIther one could easily distract me for a while :lol:  but not forever.

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I don't think most people watching the Duggars on television have the slightest clue about Gothardism. They have probably never even heard of it. I think they watch the Duggars because Michelle and Jim-Bob have a zillion children who all seem kind of sweet, and they get interested in how the family manages so well with all of those kids. Sure, the Duggars dress differently and act differently than the "average" American family, but that just makes them a novelty. I don't think many people look at the Duggars and say, "Gee, I'd like to live like they do."

 

 

The biggest danger is for new converts to Christianity.  Women just want to be the best person/wife/mother that they can be and stumble upon these things...and go searching out for ways to learn to be a "better Christian."

 

 

It does happen.

 

 

Again, the Duggars seem genuine and good.  That's what makes this an interesting topic to discuss...the disconnect between what we expect to come out of the Gothard-movement, and what we see of the Duggars.

 

A purely anecdotal story, but . . . I was born, raised and still live in the south (where from my understanding families like the Duggars, or at least people who hold similar religious beliefs, are supposedly fairly common).  I was raised in both the United Methodist and Southern Baptist churches.  I've been baptized in both.  I don't think I'm living under a rock.  But I had never heard of the Gothards and similar groups until I came to this board.  I had absolutely no idea that groups like that, with beliefs like that, existed.  Now granted I've never (and likely will never) watch a single minute of the Duggars' show.  But you'd really have to be living under a big rock if you didn't know who they are and haven't had at least a little exposure to them through snippets of media interviews, magazine covers, etc.  But until I came here I  thought they were a publicity seeking family capitalizing on their kids and intentionally adopting a weird lifestyle in order to get money.  Certainly that impression is bad enough.  But I had no clue there was anything else going on until I came to this board.

[[email protected]]

The original post by Albeto was reported by several members as offensive before the misunderstanding was cleared up, and a moderator removed it.  The other deletions were an attempt to keep the thread on topic. Obviously this failed miserably, since there's now more on the thread about the deletions than about the original topic.

 

Apologies. We don't always moderate with efficiency. But we try.

 

If you could all go back on topic now and stop talking about the board, it would be appreciated.

 

Moderator

[marbel]

Sorry, not sure who originally said this.  These examples don't feel comparable to me at all.  Yes, you can control some details about eating, but you can't opt to not eat ever.  You will die without food. Yes, you can control some details about when you wear clothing, but in some cases you won't have a choice.  Try going without clothes in Alaska.  You will die without clothing in that case. 

 

While I believe it is perfectly normal to want sex and in a sense feel the need to have it, one spouse's feelings do not automatically trump the others in my mind.  I doubt we are all far apart in agreement on this.  I just hate hearing people say crap like one is supposed to do what the man wants whenever he wants it because that's what good wifeys do.  I'm not an unfeeling blow up doll.  I would not want to be married to a person who treated me as such.

 

That's all true and there are people who, for various reasons, never have sex and they don't die from it. 

 

I do believe we all agree that in a marriage where there are no extenuating circumstances (disability, former trauma), men and woman alike should be sensitive to each others' needs and desires.  When there is a mismatch in drives it can be very difficult to navigate though, and it's easy to dismiss the person with the higher drive as too demanding because, yeah, it's not a true necessity to live.   (Not pointing at you, Sparkly, or anyone else here in particular, just in general.)   I do think we here all agree about the need for give and take but that looks different for each couple.

 

But I know some women who feel like they are done and just don't want to be bothered anymore; that's not fair to their husbands either.  (I know it can work the other way too but I don't have those types of conversations with men.)  For one thing, menopause can wreak havoc on those hormones. 

[FO4UR]

A purely anecdotal story, but . . . I was born, raised and still live in the south (where from my understanding families like the Duggars, or at least people who hold similar religious beliefs, are supposedly fairly common).  I was raised in both the United Methodist and Southern Baptist churches.  I've been baptized in both.  I don't think I'm living under a rock.  But I had never heard of the Gothards and similar groups until I came to this board.  I had absolutely no idea that groups like that, with beliefs like that, existed.  Now granted I've never (and likely will never) watch a single minute of the Duggars' show.  But you'd really have to be living under a big rock if you didn't know who they are and haven't had at least a little exposure to them through snippets of media interviews, magazine covers, etc.  But until I came here I  thought they were a publicity seeking family capitalizing on their kids and intentionally adopting a weird lifestyle in order to get money.  Certainly that impression is bad enough.  But I had no clue there was anything else going on until I came to this board.

 

 

United Methodist and Southern Baptist are probably not the denominations you'd find this in.  Both of those denominations have pretty clear statements of belief that would make Gothard an outsider to the denomination.  The churches in both UM and SBC have constitutions that follow along their statements of belief.  For a subgroup like that to form, you need a denomination that is less clearly defined.  

 

 

The South isn't the only place for religious extremes.  I've lived in IL, MO, OH and NC...not a perfect sampling of the USA, but enough that I will generalize that it's everywhere.  I think exposure to it has more to do with rural vs urban, rather than North vs South.  Rural places hold more closely to the culture of the 1950's, which....  Urban places move along at the pace of the internet, which makes indoctrination difficult unless it's via facebook.  

[FaithManor]

I think the thing that really just strikes me as completely off is their hyper stance on modesty and then bam, I'd like to talk about my sex life. One of their grown daughters wanted to become a nurse but they wouldn't allow her to attend nursing school because if she worked in that profession she would see boy parts. She's taking ATI midwife training, but that is not medical training. Bill Gothard believes in a lot of spiritual warfare kind of stuff going on during childbirth and so it is more training about controlling the woman and the environment during the birthing process. Yet, they have a baby that is alive because of highly trained medical professionals that include amazing NICU nurses who all would have seen boy parts when they went to school and in the course of working in their jobs.

 

She had Kleinfelds of New York make a cape thing so that not an ounce of skin practically below her chin was exposed for their vow renewal.

 

The courtship thing requires that their "adult" children are never allowed a second alone with a member of the opposite sex that isn't a relative. Those kids can't have a text, an email, anything that is private because shhhh...someone might be tempted. BUT, then they come out with this???

 

Yes, they do follow Gothard's teachings to the letter. They have claimed this many times in speaking engagements at homeschool conferences. Thus, the only reason I can think of for this IS self promotion and money.

 

Mostly it just makes my brain go wonky. I mean, bully for them if this works. Seriously though, don't make such a freak case about modesty and sex in your life and teach it to your kids and then turn around and "lay it all out there" for everyone else. That's a pretty huge double standard. Again, it just kind of demands brain bleach, or some sort of reverse hypnosis where a memory is removed instead of retrieved, LOL.

[SKL]

Well, probably if they never talked about their sex lives, people would think they never had sex.  :P

 

Seriously, I don't see where they breached any modesty standard.  The article was for married adults.

[FaithManor]

Yep, this sums it up nicely.

 

They do the whole show thing for money to begin with.  Of course if one has that many kids they need money!

 

Very weird they can't be nurses.  What if everyone in the world followed this religion?  No nurses?  I don't get the reasoning. 

It's a Gothard reasoning. It has to do with the belief that it is not appropriate to see the private parts of the opposite sex except for your spouse. I think they would be okay if the profession was gender segregated such that there were male nurses and male doctors for males, and female nurses and female docs for the females but that one was not cross trained.

 

Mostly, it's just a dichotomy of thinking. Those that believe this may opt out of education and training in order to appear more holy...to have a holier than everyone else standard in their minds, but when push comes to shove and health or death is on the line, they will happily avail themselves of medical assistance regardless of gender. It's the same split reasoning that shows up amongst the Amish...we won't have educations past 8th grade with little science because science is "bad", and we will have ridiculous modesty rules, and we won't have electricity in our homes or avail ourselves of certain types of technology, but we also don't mind using your hospitals with your modern doctors and nurses, your electricity, your technology...right now there is an Amish couple living in a lovely guest house at the hospital 45 minutes from here due to having a baby in the NICU. God's will seems to go so far as they have an outhouse on the property, but if baby is going to die, we go down the road to the "English" house and call the ambulance who drives us to the hospital where our child is saved by technology we shun, and we live in a beautiful modern hotel room with a common kitchen that is "to die for" (seriously, the churches and other charities that contributed to building this facility spared no expense in making it a lovely place for those that can't leave the hospital due to having loved ones in critical care for extended periods of time), with the modern private bathroom, shower, and big tub and the nice overhead lights and lamps. I am thrilled for the baby that they didn't just let her die. A child's right to live trumps a parent's right to believe. But, it is a logical fallacy, a split personality practically that makes this possible. In my experience, it happens a lot when the extremes of any religion or political "ism" are embraced.

 

It doesn't just happen here. It's kind of all over. We have a friend with Doctor's Without Borders whose heart has been broken many times because he's had to watch a woman or girl die because the male relatives adhered to a religious practice that male medical professionals cannot attend females. Many of them, very often women in labor or who had recently given birth, could have been saved.

 

It's a dichotomy of thinking that thoroughly violates my moral code. I embrace the concept that between consenting adults, they can believe what they want to believe and practice what they want to practice if they leave everyone else alone. I have a much harder time when these beliefs and practices cause abuse and neglect of the children. That their daughter did not feel as a legal adult that could pursue her dream of being a nurse without her parents' consent is a cause of concern. That they were unsupportive is very sad.

[Wildcat]

Because you're too busy like whoring yourself out!

 

 I was going to comment on a few posts but deleted them per the mod's request to get back on topic. However, I just *had* to say this literally had me LOL!!!

 

I read this entire thread before going to sleep last night and now I wonder if it was the cause of my disturbing dreams.  :blink:

 

*Note to self*  Read *only* threads about cupcakes and kilts before going to sleep.

[Hope44]

It's a Gothard reasoning. It has to do with the belief that it is not appropriate to see the private parts of the opposite sex except for your spouse. I think they would be okay if the profession was gender segregated such that there were male nurses and male doctors for males, and female nurses and female docs for the females but that one was not cross trained.

 

Mostly, it's just a dichotomy of thinking. Those that believe this may opt out of education and training in order to appear more holy...to have a holier than everyone else standard in their minds, but when push comes to shove and health or death is on the line, they will happily avail themselves of medical assistance regardless of gender. It's the same split reasoning that shows up amongst the Amish...we won't have educations past 8th grade with little science because science is "bad", and we will have ridiculous modesty rules, and we won't have electricity in our homes or avail ourselves of certain types of technology, but we also don't mind using your hospitals with your modern doctors and nurses, your electricity, your technology...right now there is an Amish couple living in a lovely guest house at the hospital 45 minutes from here due to having a baby in the NICU. God's will seems to go so far as they have an outhouse on the property, but if baby is going to die, we go down the road to the "English" house and call the ambulance who drives us to the hospital where our child is saved by technology we shun, and we live in a beautiful modern hotel room with a common kitchen that is "to die for" (seriously, the churches and other charities that contributed to building this facility spared no expense in making it a lovely place for those that can't leave the hospital due to having loved ones in critical care for extended periods of time), with the modern private bathroom, shower, and big tub and the nice overhead lights and lamps. I am thrilled for the baby that they didn't just let her die. A child's right to live trumps a parent's right to believe. But, it is a logical fallacy, a split personality practically that makes this possible. In my experience, it happens a lot when the extremes of any religion or political "ism" are embraced.

 

It doesn't just happen here. It's kind of all over. We have a friend with Doctor's Without Borders whose heart has been broken many times because he's had to watch a woman or girl die because the male relatives adhered to a religious practice that male medical professionals cannot attend females. Many of them, very often women in labor or who had recently given birth, could have been saved.

 

It's a dichotomy of thinking that thoroughly violates my moral code. I embrace the concept that between consenting adults, they can believe what they want to believe and practice what they want to practice if they leave everyone else alone. I have a much harder time when these beliefs and practices cause abuse and neglect of the children. That their daughter did not feel as a legal adult that could pursue her dream of being a nurse without her parents' consent is a cause of concern. That they were unsupportive is very sad.

 

This is what I've noticed as well.  One of the Gothard families I know eschews any ideas of government sponsored practically anything.  Yet they own a construction business (only their family works in it) and most of their work comes from...section 8 housing. It's as if there is this disconnect with what they deem as moral if they become involved with a group, family, church, or business who are not Gothardites.  

 

And when I think about it, really, all of the Gothard families are like this.  

[MercyA]

One of their grown daughters wanted to become a nurse but they wouldn't allow her to attend nursing school because if she worked in that profession she would see boy parts. She's taking ATI midwife training, but that is not medical training.

Jill Duggard wrote:

 

"My name is Jill, and I am the 4th of 19 Duggar kids. Over the past few years, while considering my future plans, I’ve become very interested in nursing. When my little sister Josie was born prematurely, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her and this really increased my nursing interest. I’ve decided to earn a Bachelors of Science in Nursing to allow me to pursue nursing.

 

With 19 kids in our family, we’re probably one of the busiest families out there. Besides family activities and travels, I’m also a First Responder with our local Fire Department. This has given me more medical training and experience, but it’s also added to my busyness. So as I started into my college studies, I needed flexibility. I’m currently studying for some of my general education classes independently and then taking CLEP exams to earn the college credit. This allows me to study any time I want to and from anywhere in the world our family happens to be. Not only is this approach flexible, it’s also a lot cheaper. After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree.

 

There’s a really awesome college program called CollegePlus! which is helping me with this process, from researching the tests I can take, to studying for them, and later will help me with the transfer process. Go to http://www.collegeplus.org/duggars to find out more and see the college plans my siblings have."

 

She did indeed change her plans later:

 

"Hey, Jill here!  These days, I’m staying busy, buried in the books and delivering babies, amidst the exciting Duggar life. For those of you who were wondering about how I started delivering babies, I’ll tell you the story.

 

Back a few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend 12 weeks of childbirth classes with my 14-year-old friend, who was a single mom. Through these classes, I learned how to coach her during the birth of her child. Although I had attended two of my siblings’ births, being able to work as an active part of my friend’s birth made me interested in learning more. I became friends with a doula/labor coach who worked in the area, and started going to home and hospital births with her. Soon, I became her assistant, and through that, I came into contact with other local midwives. Over the course of the next several years, these midwives would call on me periodically for help at home births.

 

I had been considering attending nursing school for a while, but the timing of it all wasn’t working out, and I spent a lot of time in prayer, trying to figure out where God was leading me. Eventually, through my work with the local midwives, the door opened for me to enter into a distance-learning midwifery training program in Texas. This program, after about 3 ½ years of schooling, would give me the education I need to become a licensed, Certified Professional Midwife (CPM). My parents and I prayed and talked about this opportunity, and in May of 2012, I started midwifery school. Currently, my life consists of studying like crazy to keep up with my schooling through this distance-learning program, and at the same time, working as the senior apprentice under a local, nationally certified licensed midwife to deliver babies in an out-of-hospital setting...Since I’ve started down this path to become a midwife, I’ve had the privilege of attending the births of over 60 babies!"

 

[Retired]

I figured she would not attend a brick and mortar collage.   The only brick and mortar collage that would fit the duggard lifestyle would be Pensacola Christian.  They are a very chaperoned place.   I don't know much about the Certified Midwife.  I know in my state you have to me a Nurse Midwife for a license.   I'm not against non nurse midwifes or anything.  I just think its dang sad that her ambitions were limited.  I'm hoping like myself if they ever get out from under the parents "cult" like teaching.  They will see a wide world of opportunities.  

Jill Duggard wrote:

 

"My name is Jill, and I am the 4th of 19 Duggar kids. Over the past few years, while considering my future plans, I’ve become very interested in nursing. When my little sister Josie was born prematurely, I spent a lot of time in the hospital with her and this really increased my nursing interest. I’ve decided to earn a Bachelors of Science in Nursing to allow me to pursue nursing.

With 19 kids in our family, we’re probably one of the busiest families out there. Besides family activities and travels, I’m also a First Responder with our local Fire Department. This has given me more medical training and experience, but it’s also added to my busyness. So as I started into my college studies, I needed flexibility. I’m currently studying for some of my general education classes independently and then taking CLEP exams to earn the college credit. This allows me to study any time I want to and from anywhere in the world our family happens to be. Not only is this approach flexible, it’s also a lot cheaper. After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree.

 

There’s a really awesome college program called CollegePlus! which is helping me with this process, from researching the tests I can take, to studying for them, and later will help me with the transfer process. Go to http://www.collegeplus.org/duggars to find out more and see the college plans my siblings have."

She did indeed change her plans later:

"Hey, Jill here!  These days, I’m staying busy, buried in the books and delivering babies, amidst the exciting Duggar life. For those of you who were wondering about how I started delivering babies, I’ll tell you the story.

Back a few years ago, I had the opportunity to attend 12 weeks of childbirth classes with my 14-year-old friend, who was a single mom. Through these classes, I learned how to coach her during the birth of her child. Although I had attended two of my siblings’ births, being able to work as an active part of my friend’s birth made me interested in learning more. I became friends with a doula/labor coach who worked in the area, and started going to home and hospital births with her. Soon, I became her assistant, and through that, I came into contact with other local midwives. Over the course of the next several years, these midwives would call on me periodically for help at home births.

I had been considering attending nursing school for a while, but the timing of it all wasn’t working out, and I spent a lot of time in prayer, trying to figure out where God was leading me. Eventually, through my work with the local midwives, the door opened for me to enter into a distance-learning midwifery training program in Texas. This program, after about 3 ½ years of schooling, would give me the education I need to become a licensed, Certified Professional Midwife (CPM). My parents and I prayed and talked about this opportunity, and in May of 2012, I started midwifery school. Currently, my life consists of studying like crazy to keep up with my schooling through this distance-learning program, and at the same time, working as the senior apprentice under a local, nationally certified licensed midwife to deliver babies in an out-of-hospital setting...Since I’ve started down this path to become a midwife, I’ve had the privilege of attending the births of over 60 babies!"
 

 

[MercyA]

Based on Jill's own words above, my impression is this:

 

Her parents apparently didn't object, in principle, to her getting a nursing degree, and went so far as to endorse the CollegePlus program she was using in 2011.

Her parents apparently didn't have a problem with her work as a First Responder and the medical training she received while doing that.

She didn't appear to change her plans because "she's not allowed to see boy parts," but because of her own interests and experiences.

She is planning to become a Certified Professional Midwife and is training with a nationally certified midwife.  I do consider that medical training.

 

She doesn't seem oppressed to me, but I don't know her personally and can't read her mind. ;)

 

(And just so you all know, I have never been involved in any way with any Gothard program, nor do I ever plan to be.)

[mommaduck]

Several issues with her becoming a CPM, there is some knowledge she is going to need as a CPM in regards to relations and pregnancy (a midwife does not JUST deliver babies). And I'm speaking of more than just how babies are made type of information.

The Duggar's follow ALL of Gothard's teachings? They are lying in one form or another. She claims to be AP...AP is at odds with Gothardism. She uses a sling which is at odds with GKGW (which is endorsed by some Gothardites...though most prefer the Pearls...which is, again, at odds with being AP). 

[Scrub Jay]

Several issues with her becoming a CPM, there is some knowledge she is going to need as a CPM in regards to relations and pregnancy (a midwife does not JUST deliver babies). And I'm speaking of more than just how babies are made type of information.

 

The Duggar's follow ALL of Gothard's teachings? They are lying in one form or another. She claims to be AP...AP is at odds with Gothardism. She uses a sling which is at odds with GKGW (which is endorsed by some Gothardites...though most prefer the Pearls...which is, again, at odds with being AP). 

 

What is GKGW?

 

[Mrs Mungo]

Sorry, not sure who originally said this. These examples don't feel comparable to me at all.

 

I only gave the wiki link. I think the other poster put her own remarks inside of the quote box by accident.

[Catwoman]

A purely anecdotal story, but . . . I was born, raised and still live in the south (where from my understanding families like the Duggars, or at least people who hold similar religious beliefs, are supposedly fairly common). I was raised in both the United Methodist and Southern Baptist churches. I've been baptized in both. I don't think I'm living under a rock. But I had never heard of the Gothards and similar groups until I came to this board. I had absolutely no idea that groups like that, with beliefs like that, existed. Now granted I've never (and likely will never) watch a single minute of the Duggars' show. But you'd really have to be living under a big rock if you didn't know who they are and haven't had at least a little exposure to them through snippets of media interviews, magazine covers, etc. But until I came here I thought they were a publicity seeking family capitalizing on their kids and intentionally adopting a weird lifestyle in order to get money. Certainly that impression is bad enough. But I had no clue there was anything else going on until I came to this board.

:iagree:

 

Same here.

 

I don't think this board is representative of the average person on the street -- at least not on my street.

 

I would be willing to bet that the vast majority of people who have heard of the Duggar family would say exactly one thing about them... "Aren't they the family with all those kids?" I really don't think their lifestyle is influencing most people, and those that are looking for deeper meanings about whether or not they live by Gothard or even patriarchal principles are probably few and far-between. The very small minority of gullible people who would seriously think to look to the TLC channel to help them choose a new religion or lifestyle would likely be easily influenced by people in their real lives, too, so I don't think the Duggars and their lifestyle are any kind of danger to society as a whole. They're nothing more than a half hour of escapist entertainment for most people, and I'm quite surprised whenever I read posts that seem to take them so seriously.

 

They're just another reality TV family to most people, even to the people who think they seem very nice.

[Hope44]

I've never seen her use a sling...doesn't mean she doesn't use one, I've just never seen it.  She definitely utilizes "blanket training."  I don't think that is at all AP.  She also gives a tremendous amount of  responsibility of the babies over to the older girls when the infants reach six months of age.  From what I've understood, the infants are actually moved out of the parents room at that age.  Not thinking that is AP.  I guess I mean AP in the Dr. Sears' sort of definition. However, I *could* see how Michelle thinks she is an attached parent since she does breastfeed for a little while.  

[Catwoman]

The original post by Albeto was reported by several members as offensive before the misunderstanding was cleared up, and a moderator removed it. The other deletions were an attempt to keep the thread on topic. Obviously this failed miserably, since there's now more on the thread about the deletions than about the original topic.

 

Apologies. We don't always moderate with efficiency. But we try.

 

If you could all go back on topic now and stop talking about the board, it would be appreciated.

 

Moderator

Thank you very much for taking the time to clarify what happened -- I appreciate it!

 

I know you have a very difficult and thankless job, and moderating a large forum must get pretty tedious (and irritating,) much of the time, but I'm sure we all appreciate all of your hard work to keep this forum running for us.

 

Thanks again! :)

[mommaduck]

What is GKGW?

 

 

Growing Kids God's Way (Ezzos)

[Retired]

For those not raised with big time church legalism can't begin to understand how the teaching affect you.   She may of had some choices but I promise you that these teachings "Keep You Tied"  to their ideas.  She would and will feel guilty for doing, seeing, saying or acting any part different than her upbringing.  The whole teaching is a yoke around her neck for life.  The first time she had to see a male part during her EMT training all the crazy teaching will raise their head.  It would work on her mentally to thinking I'm doing wrong (as a christen)  I must get right as a Christian.  Which then leads her back to the "teachings"   I know that many Christian deal with this in regard to "real sin" action but to someone raised in legalism they feel like that with all stuff that goes against the "rules" of their Christian home.      I'm 44 and still get "guilty" feeling which I know are not right for going against the "rule" like Christianity.  It drives me crazy that I'll do something and still feel the "going to hell" speech and preach for wearing shorts or going to the beach.  It was even a sin to watch movies in my childhood home.    I'm a born again christen and know Jesus  loves me and accepts me without all the "rules"   He lets me know when I'm out of line.  The teaching of a bunch of sinful men writing some doctrine does not affect my salvation.  That goes for gothard and many other twisted narcissistic guys calling themselves god.

Based on Jill's own words above, my impression is this:

 

Her parents apparently didn't object, in principle, to her getting a nursing degree, and went so far as to endorse the CollegePlus program she was using in 2011.

Her parents apparently didn't have a problem with her work as a First Responder and the medical training she received while doing that.

She didn't appear to change her plans because "she's not allowed to see boy parts," but because of her own interests and experiences.

She is planning to become a Certified Professional Midwife and is training with a nationally certified midwife.  I do consider that medical training.

 

She doesn't seem oppressed to me, but I don't know her personally and can't read her mind. ;)

 

(And just so you all know, I have never been involved in any way with any Gothard program, nor do I ever plan to be.)

 

[mommaduck]

I've never seen her use a sling...doesn't mean she doesn't use one, I've just never seen it.  She definitely utilizes "blanket training."  I don't think that is at all AP.  She also gives a tremendous amount of  responsibility of the babies over to the older girls when the infants reach six months of age.  From what I've understood, the infants are actually moved out of the parents room at that age.  Not thinking that is AP.  I guess I mean AP in the Dr. Sears' sort of definition. However, I *could* see how Michelle thinks she is an attached parent since she does breastfeed for a little while.  

 

I probably know some extreme APer's also LOL! Blanket training is VERY contra to APing. I have seen her use a sling and even have seen a family photo where she was using it and joining AP groups online (MySpace was one some years ago, before FB became a thing). Yes, deciding to quick wean at exactly 6mos each and every time and moving them out and on...also not AP. I've had plenty of children and I can tell you that many of my children weaned between a range...but there were also those that were extremely one direction (earlier) and extremely the other (later). It's not, "oh, I'm six months...my siblings were all six months...I'm done!" Nope, doesn't happen that way.

 

As for the responsibility she gives her girls, not certain. I can say that as a large family, the children naturally do have more responsibilities than children in smaller families. It's how you manage to keep things running. It doesn't hurt them. Is there a limit where a parent needs to take care not to overburden their older children, YES! It's a balancing act. I can't speak to how much that balancing act plays out in the Duggar household. It seems their older boys got some space as they got older. The older girls, I don't know. I know I've had to learn to back off and pass the chores down and give my teens some space as they have gotten older. They still have responsibilities, but it's different than when they were younger and as the middlers come on up. Some of it is just large family dynamics...some of it can go overboard.

[Mrs Mungo]

Her parents apparently didn't object, in principle, to her getting a nursing degree, and went so far as to endorse the CollegePlus program she was using in 2011.

College plus doesn't offer degrees. It isn't an accredited, degree producing program.

 

Her parents apparently didn't have a problem with her work as a First Responder and the medical training she received while doing that.

She got CPR/First Aid while working with the volunteer fire department. Not the same as medical training.

[happypamama]

A CPM is a little different from a CNM, and CPMs are not licensed in all states, whereas I believe CNMs are. CNMs, afaik, have to practice with a doctor backup, and they have stricter limits on attending twins/breeches/VBACs. CNMs are nurses. A CPM may have different training (not necessarily inferior, just different) and may or may not also have a nursing degree. A CPM can take on whatever cases she feels comfortable doing, and because they are able to do so, a CPM may actually be more experienced in breeches and other complications. (I had some really great CNMs for my first two babies and some really great CPMs for my last three babies, and the CPM I had for one of my babies was absolutely the right provider, of any type of MW or OB -- few providers know how to handle that particular issue properly, but she did, and baby arrived 100% safely.) So I think it is pretty awesome that Jill is working to become a CPM!

[MercyA]

College plus doesn't offer degrees. It isn't an accredited, degree producing program.

 

From the College Plus website:  "While CollegePlus guides you through your studies, your degree will be granted by a regionally accredited institution. All our students graduate from regionally accredited colleges and universities." 

 

This seems in line with what Jill herself said:  "After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree.  There’s a really awesome college program called CollegePlus! which is helping me with this process, from researching the tests I can take, to studying for them, and later will help me with the transfer process."

 

She got CPR/First Aid while working with the volunteer fire department. Not the same as medical training.

 

I don't know that much about first responder training.  The Red Cross website calls their first responder program "Emergency Medical Response" training.  In any case, her parents must not have been too terrified of her seeing male body parts if they let her take that kind of job.  :)

[mommaduck]

A CPM is a little different from a CNM, and CPMs are not licensed in all states, whereas I believe CNMs are. CNMs, afaik, have to practice with a doctor backup, and they have stricter limits on attending twins/breeches/VBACs. CNMs are nurses. A CPM may have different training (not necessarily inferior, just different) and may or may not also have a nursing degree. A CPM can take on whatever cases she feels comfortable doing, and because they are able to do so, a CPM may actually be more experienced in breeches and other complications. (I had some really great CNMs for my first two babies and some really great CPMs for my last three babies, and the CPM I had for one of my babies was absolutely the right provider, of any type of MW or OB -- few providers know how to handle that particular issue properly, but she did, and baby arrived 100% safely.) So I think it is pretty awesome that Jill is working to become a CPM!

 

CNMs are RNs first and then go through additional training and licensing. CPMs start out DE and work towards certification.

[mommaduck]

From the College Plus website:  "While CollegePlus guides you through your studies, your degree will be granted by a regionally accredited institution. All our students graduate from regionally accredited colleges and universities." 

 

This seems in line with what Jill herself said:  "After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree.  There’s a really awesome college program called CollegePlus! which is helping me with this process, from researching the tests I can take, to studying for them, and later will help me with the transfer process."

 

 

I don't know that much about first responder training.  The Red Cross website calls their first responder program "Emergency Medical Response" training.  In any case, her parents must not have been too terrified of her seeing male body parts if they let her take that kind of job.  :)

 

 

Trigger word -> Regionally Accredited. BJU is "Regionally Accredited" aka outside of SC and GA it's USELESS and the credits don't transfer.

 

Fully Accredited, Nationally Accredited...those and other terms the college moms would be more familiar with would mean something. Regionally Accredited = Nothing.

[Mom in High Heels]

 

She had Kleinfelds of New York make a cape thing so that not an ounce of skin practically below her chin was exposed for their vow renewal.

 

 

This statement alone seems so very at odds with the Duggars.  I know they have money, but Kleinfelds?  Duggar + Kelinfelds = Things that don't go together in my mind.  

 

I think it is pretty obvious they have had sex.  Unless they reproduce by budding or something.

 

OMG, you've cracked it!  They aren't human, they're pod people!!!!!  AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!

[mommaduck]

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/photos/michelle-duggar-wedding-dress11.htm

(I'm going to try to refrain from commenting on the dress. As a seamstress, THIS was what Kleinfelds came up with?! *shudders*)

[DawnM]

I finally read that article……yuck.   :ack2:

[LibraryLover]

http://www.tlc.com/tv-shows/19-kids-and-counting/photos/michelle-duggar-wedding-dress11.htm

 

(I'm going to try to refrain from commenting on the dress. As a seamstress, THIS was what Kleinfelds came up with?! *shudders*)

 

Not flattering.

 

 

[MercyA]

Trigger word -> Regionally Accredited. BJU is "Regionally Accredited" aka outside of SC and GA it's USELESS and the credits don't transfer.

 

Fully Accredited, Nationally Accredited...those and other terms the college moms would be more familiar with would mean something. Regionally Accredited = Nothing.

 

Out of the 13 partner colleges and universities listed on the College Plus website, 11 of them offer at least some nationally accredited programs (for example, in nursing, teaching, music, etc.).  Bob Jones isn't even listed.

[Mrs Mungo]

From the College Plus website: "While CollegePlus guides you through your studies, your degree will be granted by a regionally accredited institution. All our students graduate from regionally accredited colleges and universities."

 

This seems in line with what Jill herself said: "After I’ve CLEPped out of all the classes I can, I’ll be transferring in to a local fully accredited nursing school to complete my degree. There’s a really awesome college program called CollegePlus! which is helping me with this process, from researching the tests I can take, to studying for them, and later will help me with the transfer process."

 

Are your homeschooled kids in high school or college? This is meaningless. She is basically "homeschooling" college and *hopes* she will be able to CLEP those classes, which many high school grads manage to do *without* additional online classes. Many homeschoolers work toward passing CLEP/AP exams in order to sort of back up their parent produced *high school* transcripts. This is NOT like attending college. Therefore, I reject the idea that "allowing" Jill to take online classes with College Plus! means that they are allowing her to attend college. It is NOT college in any sense if the word.

 

I don't know that much about first responder training. The Red Cross website calls their first responder program "Emergency Medical Response" training. In any case, her parents must not have been too terrified of her seeing male body parts if they let her take that kind of job. :)

I don't find it likely that she is working a job that would result in her seeing "male parts." Just as we see from the "college" example, there is likely a broad interpretation of "first responder" being applied here.

[Mrs Mungo]

Out of the 13 partner colleges and universities listed on the College Plus website, 11 of them offer at least some nationally accredited programs (for example, in nursing, teaching, music, etc.). Bob Jones isn't even listed.

It isn't relevant. You can take a CLEP test *without* doing any kind of online class. It is cheaper (even here in Hawaii) to do community college classes and *those* classes offer transfer credits to almost any college or university that are *not* based on later test results.

[MercyA]

Are your homeschooled kids in high school or college? This is meaningless. She is basically "homeschooling" college and *hopes* she will be able to CLEP those classes, which many high school grads manage to do *without* additional online classes. Many homeschoolers work toward passing CLEP/AP exams in order to sort of back up their parent produced *high school* transcripts. This is NOT like attending college. Therefore, I reject the idea that "allowing" Jill to take online classes with College Plus! means that they are allowing her to attend college. It is NOT college in any sense if the word.

 

I don't find it likely that she is working a job that would result in her seeing "male parts." Just as we see from the "college" example, there is likely a broad interpretation of "first responder" being applied here.

She said she was going to transfer to a nursing school, and apparently her parents didn't have a problem with that. I expect that first responders may occasionally see people in various states of undress.

 

I'm not sure why you're so vehement about this, but I really don't have a horse in this race. I just don't like to see people judged and possibly misrepresented.

 

I don't have children in college, but I do have a bachelor's degree myself, from a nationally accredited program at a regionally accredited secular university. ;)

 

Peace!

[DragonFaerie]

 

Fully Accredited, Nationally Accredited...those and other terms the college moms would be more familiar with would mean something. Regionally Accredited = Nothing.

 

I'm no expert, but I don't think this is quite right.  It's my understanding that there are six regional accreditation commissions and that accreditation with any one of those is accepted.  For example, the University of Georgia is accredited by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, which is the southern region's accreditation commission.  Southern New Hampshire University is accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges, which is New England's regional accreditation commission. 

[Mrs Mungo]

She said she was going to transfer to a nursing school, and apparently her parents didn't have a problem with that.

You can't CLEP out of all of the credits needed to get into nursing school. My eldest wants to go into nursing. Most nursing schools won't accept you until you have finished with 2 years of college with a good GPA. You can't do College Plus!, then transfer to a nursing school. It does not work that way.

 

I'm not sure why you're so vehement about this, but I really don't have a horse in this race. I just don't like to see people judged and possibly misrepresented.

Who am I unfairly judging? I am not judging *anyone*. I am stating that College Plus! is not a real college program in any way. People *on a homeschooling board* should be aware of that. I have a kid going off to college next year. I have actually investigated all types of programs and what they offer. I am only "vehement" that College Plus! does not offer college credit, is not itself an accredited school, students who use it *will* wind up redoing any credits beyond the basic freshman level credits that they could CLEP out of without College Plus! classes.

 

I don't have children in college, but I do have a bachelor's degree myself, from a nationally accredited, secular university. ;)

 

Then you should know that you don't need extra classes to take CLEP tests and that no school would let you simply CLEP into a nursing program.

[MercyA]

You can't CLEP out of all of the credits needed to get into nursing school. My eldest wants to go into nursing. Most nursing schools won't accept you until you have finished with 2 years of college with a good GPA. You can't do College Plus!, then transfer to a nursing school. It does not work that way.

 

 

Who am I unfairly judging? I am not judging *anyone*. I am stating that College Plus! is not a real college program in any way. People *on a homeschooling board* should be aware of that. I have a kid going off to college next year. I have actually investigated all types of programs and what they offer. I am only "vehement" that College Plus! does not offer college credit, is not itself an accredited school, students who use it *will* wind up redoing any credits beyond the basic freshman level credits that they could CLEP out of without College Plus! classes.

 

 

Then you should know that you don't need extra classes to take CLEP tests and that no school would let you simply CLEP into a nursing program.

 

I think the Duggars have been judged unfairly and often on this forum; I wasn't referring specifically to you, and I'm sorry you took my comment that way.

 

From the College Plus website:

 

"Our premier partner colleges provide CollegePlus students with the ability to transfer at least 60 credits, enjoy a streamlined application and enrollment process, and receive a sizable discount on tuition. This degree path is also offered completely online giving you an incredible amount of flexibility throughout the process.

 

Our standard partner colleges allow CollegePlus students to transfer a minimum of 30 credits, enjoy a streamlined application and enrollment process, and receive a tuition discount. (These colleges require students to come onsite to complete their degree.)

 

Our affiliate colleges allow CollegePlus students to transfer a minimum of 15 credits. (These colleges require students to come onsite to complete their degree.)"

 

I do feel like you keep arguing against claims I'm not making, and your last comment was quite condescending. 

 

ETA:  Thanks for your contribution to the discussion.

[SKL]

I don't get why it is so important to some people to insist that Jill Duggar is doing "Nothing" with her life.  I also think it's quite rude to say anything that isn't a nationally accredited degree is "Nothing," considering that lots of people I respect fall into that "Nothing" category.

[Mrs Mungo]

I don't get why it is so important to some people to insist that Jill Duggar is doing "Nothing" with her life. I also think it's quite rude to say anything that isn't a nationally accredited degree is "Nothing," considering that lots of people I respect fall into that "Nothing" category.

College Plus! does not offer degrees. People have quoted that from their own website. You have little kids who are in school. I seriously doubt this is something you have had to discuss in real life. I *have* and many people do *not* understand what they are really getting (or not getting) from this program.

[SKL]

College Plus! does not offer degrees. People have quoted that from their own website. You have little kids who are in school. I seriously doubt this is something you have had to discuss in real life. I *have* and many people do *not* understand what they are really getting (or not getting) from this program.

 

I understand the factual statements you are making, but so what?  Is anyone saying she has the equivalent of a Harvard degree?  She's doing what she's doing, why does anyone care where it falls in the rankings of higher education?

 

[Mrs Mungo]

I understand the factual statements you are making, but so what? Is anyone saying she has the equivalent of a Harvard degree? She's doing what she's doing, why does anyone care where it falls in the rankings of higher education?

 

Because *she* has expressed an interest in nursing. She hasn't been allowed to pursue that. Her parents have only allowed her a virtually meaningless online non-degree producing program. It isn't about what she is doing. It is about what she is not being allowed to do. Do you see?

 

People are using the online program thing as "proof" that she is being allowed to pursue a nursing degree. But it isn't proof of that at all. Do you see my point?

[SKL]

Because *she* has expressed an interest in nursing. She hasn't been allowed to pursue that. Her parents have only allowed her a virtually meaningless online non-degree producing program. It isn't about what she is doing. It is about what she is not being allowed to do. Do you see?

 

She changed her mind, like most people do.  One of my brothers was going to be a nurse too.  He gave it up.  Is it because his parents didn't allow it?  No.  When I was a teen, I thought I was going to join the RN program as soon as I was old enough (18).  By age 18 I had changed my mind.  It happens a lot.

[SKL]

Because *she* has expressed an interest in nursing. She hasn't been allowed to pursue that. Her parents have only allowed her a virtually meaningless online non-degree producing program. It isn't about what she is doing. It is about what she is not being allowed to do. Do you see?

 

People are using the online program thing as "proof" that she is being allowed to pursue a nursing degree. But it isn't proof of that at all. Do you see my point?

 

Why do you think she wrote that she was going to use that path as a starting point to go into nursing, if it was complete BS?