Fight or Flight?

[TXMary2]

Do you tell your children they have a right to defend themselves? If a bully at a park punches, pushes or in any way assaults your child, are they allowed to fight back? Do they stand there and take it? Do they walk away? What if walking away doesn't solve the issue?

 

DH and I have always told our children they can strike back if they are assaulted and feel threatened. They also know walking away is an option, but that it might not always work. 

 

Just curious how others handle this because we have some friends who tell their kids under no circumstances are they to hit anyone.  One of their children is small for his age and regularly gets picked on, pushed etc., and he cries a lot. My son wants to defend him and often does verbally, but it is really bothering my son that the boy won't defend himself. My son keeps bringing it up to me and I think it is really weighing on him.

[AlmiraGulch]

I've always told my kids that they are absolutely not required to accept abuse, be it physical or verbal.  If they are being attacked, they have every right to defend themselves.

 

 

[ashfern]

Their karate instructor goes over self defense & when it's okay to fight back.

[Scarlett]

I've always told my kids that they are absolutely not required to accept abuse, be it physical or verbal. If they are being attacked, they have every right to defend themselves.

Ditto.

[Heather in Neverland]

My children will absolutely defend themselves and have taken self-defense classes to do so effectively.

[RoughCollie]

My kids were taught that they must never let anyone abuse them in any way, and that they have the right to defend themselves and to defend others.  I thoroughly educated them on the law pertaining to that subject.  They also took karate for a long time.

 

This has come in handy a few times.  DS2 has had to defend himself twice (at ages 10 and 16), and DD has had to defend other kids from being bullied.  All ended victoriously for the good guys!  No one was hurt badly, and no one was bullied after the initial encounter. 

 

I've come to the conclusion that bullies don't anticipate their prey defending themselves, and they don't like to feel pain.  School and camp officials who blame the defender don't get away with it when I am involved.

 

DS3 was bullied by the principal of the parochial school he attended in the 8th grade.  When I found out about it, 2/3 of the way through the school year, I withdrew him and had fun chatting with her about the situation. 

 

All of my boys were bullied by a preacher who attended their college campus's Christian Club meetings.  They thought he was in charge, but it turned out he was good friends with the faculty adviser.  My boys and other students who belonged to the club were interviewed, separately, by several college officials.  That ended well -- the preacher was banned from campus.

[Liz CA]

Recommend some kind of self defense technique for your son's friend. Just learning the moves with others seems to build confidence. And yes, we told ds he has a right to defend himself instead of being punched senseless by some bully.

[Pawz4me]

DH and I have always told our children they can strike back if they are assaulted and feel threatened. They also know walking away is an option, but that it might not always work. 

 

Ditto.

[katilac]

Regardless of what the parents allow, it's difficult to physically defend yourself against a much larger person. Bullies don't magically back down every time someone stands up to them. I don't have have philosophical issues with hitting back, but it's not always sensible to do so. 

 

Honestly, it frustrates me when people can't seem to understand why a small-for-size kid doesn't always push back. I'll give you a hint: physics are not on his side, and a push is better than getting your a** kicked. There is a reason wrestling, boxing, and mixed martial arts fighting are strongly classified by weight: everyone knows it's ridiculous to think that a tough and talented fighter in the lightweight division has a chance against a mediocre fighter in the heavyweight division.  

 

We've all had the experience of running into grown-up jerks in public - maybe they think you stole their parking space, whatever. If it's a 6'3" tough dude who outweighs your husband by fifty pounds of pure muscle, would you encourage your dh to 'stand up to him' or fight back? I certainly would not, even if it means we are embarrassed or the guy 'gets away' with something. If it was an ongoing scenario, we would go to the police. Where are the 'police' in this case, ie the parents?? How is it that adults know a kid is regularly being pushed, picked on, and bullied, yet it continues? If the parents are nowhere around, then I certainly understand why this poor kid doesn't retaliate - there is no one to keep it from escalating. If the parents are around (ANY parents), then wtf? Why is this occurring on a regular basis? 

 

As far as my own son, I would tell him that it's not always as simple as standing up for yourself (see above), and that he isn't allowed to anyway. I would emphasize that we have to always be careful to not blame the victim or assume they should be able to stop the bullying. Also, I would be proud if my kids defended the victim, but I'd make sure they didn't have to do so regularly - because I wouldn't allow them to hang out with the bully, even in a casual group situation. It sounds like all or most of the park people know each other, so there should be some PARENTAL peer pressure going on here. 

[Dory]

I've taught my kids to defend themselves when they can, and run when they have to. Never be the guy to throw the first punch though. I have also taught them to defend those smaller than themselves that are being bullied. I think every kid should know some moves for self defense. We don't have a lot of options here for that, but my little brother has done mixed martial arts for years and regularly goes over things with the kids.

[poppy]

I agree with katilac here. This sounds  a bit like victim blaming to me.  I'd tell you son that he's smaller than the other guy, and that bullies do not walk away just because someone fights back.  They walk away if they feel threatened.  A small for his age boy who obviously isn't prepared to perform effective self defense would probably  not make a bully walk away.  Hitting isn't a magic solution, ever.

 

The tools I would give a child to avoid bullying would mainly  revolved around aggressively pushing back. Crying is one of the worst things you can do when bullied. He needs to know how to stand up for himself, or at least how to "fake it" in terms of confidence when attacked. A self defense class and physical conditioning would be good ideas too.

[KrissiK]

We tell our kids they absolutely have the right to defend themselves or someone else who is being bullied. We will never get them in trouble for that. But, we also cautioned them about the risks. Sometimes walking away or calling for an adult is not an option, and it is never right to see someone abuse another who is smaller and weaker and do nothing about it. (Although it is always best to find an adult in these situations, sometimes that's not possible or there may not be time)

 

Regarding a previous post, sometimes standing up to a bully doesn't work, but sometimes it does. I did when I was a quiet, shy, timid 5th grader and a hot shot 8th grade boy in the back of the school bus wouldn't let me sit in his seat. There was no other place to go, the bus was full, he was refusing to let me sit down, the whole bus was telling me to sit somewhere else, although I couldn't. So, I just sat down next to him. And he shut up. And never bothered me again.

[Ripley]

I teach my kids to read a situation, and to act appropriately to it - sometimes the best option is to physically defend (themselves, each other, another) but sometimes it's better not to physically engage someone. That may mean walking away, running away, or taking a hit if it helps in the bigger picture.  We do this a lot by dissecting situations (real, fake) we see on tv, movies, news, and just in our regular lives.

 

My son is 13 and has been in three confrontations. The first was at age nine, his same-aged cousin came up from behind and kicked him my son in the head. This boy was raised in an abusive environment, and learned to fight dirty. My son chased the cousin down, punched him in the face twice and the cousin got a concussion when he fell. My son kicked him in the ribs after the boy was already on the ground. This happened at my ex's house, so I wasn't there. My ex was fine with how it all went down, and so was his grandmother (who raised the boy off/on whenever the boy's parents were incarcerated). When I had a chance to debrief my son, I told him I was fine with how it went down UNTIL he kicked the kid. I wanted to be sure he understood the difference between defending and attacking. I said he'd never get in trouble for defending but that attacking could invite a host of troubles - be those legal, or just friends looking out for friends. Where I grew up, this would've sparked a bigger problem in the community.

 

My son's second confrontation was at age 11. His friend's friend didn't like him, and tried to punch my son. My son is a natural athlete and has been boxing for seven years. He blocked the punch, took one of his own, then got the boy down to the ground. He kept the boy in submission while waiting for an adult. I thought he handled it fine, but the other adults disagreed. The instigator's dad threatened to sue my son for assault and the friend's parents decided my son was too violent to continue the friendship. When we debriefed, my son said he should have not punched the kid, only submitted him. He said it wasn't losing his friend over. I agreed, and he continued to learn about troubles that can come - and to read a situation and decide what is (and isn't) worth fighting over.

 

His third confrontation was at age 12, in the parking lot after a school football game. He was defending the friend of my nephew, who had been shoved down. He didn't throw any punches, but took one while he put the attacker in submission until the cops made it over. He was barred from attending any more games that season, but the cop said he showed restraint and control that most kids his age didn't. So it showed me he was learning the difference between defending and attacking. Unfortunately, my nephew and his friend had fought back; they were suspended from the team for the year.

 

I'm a lover, not a fighter. LOL I didn't understand all of this fighting, but apparently it's common to boys (according to my ex) and to his family (again, according to him). So I want my kids to know how to defend themselves, but to do so smartly - controlled, not reactive. If they can't win, I don't want them to go down trying. I tell them hit with a purpose, and be ready to end it or to run fast. Some kids aren't as confident, knowledgeable, or comfortable fighting - it's just as much a personality thing as anything else. I wouldn't encourage a child who lacked the proper tools (confidence, knowledge, skill) to fight back; it's inviting more trouble, IMO.

[TXMary2]

Recommend some kind of self defense technique for your son's friend. Just learning the moves with others seems to build confidence. And yes, we told ds he has a right to defend himself instead of being punched senseless by some bully.

 

The problem with this is the boy's parents have told him not to fight - ever - even in self defense. 

[poppy]

We tell our kids they absolutely have the right to defend themselves or someone else who is being bullied. We will never get them in trouble for that. But, we also cautioned them about the risks. Sometimes walking away or calling for an adult is not an option, and it is never right to see someone abuse another who is smaller and weaker and do nothing about it. (Although it is always best to find an adult in these situations, sometimes that's not possible or there may not be time)

 

Regarding a previous post, sometimes standing up to a bully doesn't work, but sometimes it does. I did when I was a quiet, shy, timid 5th grader and a hot shot 8th grade boy in the back of the school bus wouldn't let me sit in his seat. There was no other place to go, the bus was full, he was refusing to let me sit down, the whole bus was telling me to sit somewhere else, although I couldn't. So, I just sat down next to him. And he shut up. And never bothered me again.

 

Of course standing up for yourself is a good idea - always!

I think the question here is, is hitting back or otherwise physically striking the bully the proper approach.

 

I think there is a lot to be said for a non-violence approach. Not every parent has to make it.  My daughter takes self defense twice a week, as will my son when he's older.

 

But the parents are hardly doing a disservice to the boy by telling him not to hit back. It is a reasonable family policy and ethical decision, IF they are giving him the proper tools to deal with it otherwise, both in the moment (standing up for himself) and longer term (realizing the moral choice to not hit back is a sacrifice, in some ways.)

[katilac]

The parking space example doesn't hold water. Taking a parking space isn't bullying and it isn't a hit, shove, kick or nastily worded exchange.

 

 

 

I should have been clearer - I meant a situation when the person threatens you or actually gives a shove or throws a punch b/c they think you took their parking space, or looked at their girlfriend, etc. 

[Melissa in Australia]

I haven't read any responses.

 I have taught my kids to walk away and to avoid confrontational situations.

[momacacia]

Two words: Krav Maga. That's all. :)

[MedicMom]

A long time ago my dad told me to never, ever start a fight, but if I found myself in one, to finish it.

 

That is what we are teaching our kids, along with reading the situation/situational awareness. They know mommy and daddy have both had to physically defend themselves against violent people; we are also teaching them that there are many times better ways to diffuse a situation.

 

But my kids would never be in trouble for defending themselves, each other, or a smaller/weaker child.

[MomatHWTK]

I wouldn't consider telling children to never hit a "problem."  It is a parenting choice as worthy of respect as any other.  I would encourage the smaller child to find adult assistance or move to a different area to play. If the bullies pursue, then I would definitely guide the child to play near an adult. 

 

As far as hitting back, our policy is if there are no other options we defend.  In the society of children being raised today what ended with a return punch 30 years ago could now end with a stabbing, group beat down, or drive by.  I am not willing to risk that over playground turf.  If bullies rule the particular playground, we don't go there.  Legally, I was taught if there is an option to flee a public space then that should be the option taken to avoid liability.  I teach that same policy to my children despite the advent of stand your ground laws. 

 

I do agree that learning defensive moves are important as sometimes there is no flee option. 

[Lisbeth]

I place the duty to flee idea in the category of good people allowing bad behavior by doing nothing. Bullies shouldn't ever own a park...parents should address it if it is pervasive. So tired of the bullies getting their way. My kids are taught to finish the fight but never start it. Generally though I believe the adult response to bullying should be so unified and quick that bullying would be very unappealing. I am so tired of good people standing around not wanting to get involved.

[Catwoman]

I haven't read any responses.

I have taught my kids to walk away and to avoid confrontational situations.

I think most of us would prefer that our children avoid physical confrontation, but what would you tell your kids to do if walking away wasn't an option because the bully wouldn't leave them alone?

 

EDITED TO CLARIFY (thanks to poppy's response to this post!).....

 

I meant to say that most of us would prefer that our kids not get into physical confrontations but that many of us believe in self-defense when necessary, so I was wondering what you advise your kids to do when walking away from a bully isn't an option.

 

Sorry to have been so confusing! :blush:

[poppy]

I think most of us would prefer that our children avoid physical confrontation, but what would you tell your kids to do if walking away wasn't an option because the bully wouldn't leave them alone?

 

That's not the impression I get -more posters than not (especially if you include likes) have indicated they encourage their boys to fight back if confronted.   We all want our kids to never fight, but making a choice to advise the child to not engage in physical self defense appears to be atypical.  Though several posters have referred to it as a "right" rather than a choice.

[Catwoman]

That's not the impression I get -more posters than not (especially if you include likes) have indicated they encourage their boys to fight back if confronted. We all want our kids to never fight, but making a choice to advise the child to not engage in physical self defense appears to be atypical.

Oops. I think I phrased my post awkwardly. I meant to say that most of us would prefer that our kids avoid confrontation if possible, but that they can defend themselves if necessary. That's why I was asking Melissa what she would advise her kids to do if walking away from confrontation wasn't an option.

 

Thanks for catching my error -- I'm going to go back and edit my last post with a little explanatory note. :)

[Melissa in Australia]

I think most of us would prefer that our children avoid physical confrontation, but what would you tell your kids to do if walking away wasn't an option because the bully wouldn't leave them alone?

 

the reason that I tell my children to do this is from personal experience. When I was a child in primary school, I was bullied regularly in school and  I was bashed regularly on my way home from school. So one day  I weighed my school bag down with all the books I could and when the bully came and started bashing me I swung the bag around and hit him in the head. The next day  he had a very large knife and held it to my throat. Police became involved and he didn't bully me any more but retaliating and protecting myself was not a good idea.  

 

 

I tell my children to avoid confrontational situations, and so far it has worked.

[unsinkable]

This thread is hysterical.

 

Everyone thinks they have all the answers if in their limited experience their kids were able to successfully defend themselves against bullies.

[Dory]

That's not the impression I get -more posters than not (especially if you include likes) have indicated they encourage their boys to fight back if confronted.   We all want our kids to never fight, but making a choice to advise the child to not engage in physical self defense appears to be atypical.  Though several posters have referred to it as a "right" rather than a choice.

 

I said I encourage my kids to stand up for themselves and that they know a little mixed martial arts moves, but I don't encourage fighting unless it is the last option.

If they are defending someone smaller/younger, I would praise them for it, but they know that wise manipulation of their surroundings and words is a better approach. If they can't avoid it though, and the other guy/girl throws the first punch, I have taught them to finish it.

 

People talk on here that their kids are too small to defend themselves but I don't think that size is always the problem so much as self confidence and training. My little brothers are only 5'9" but they have no problem pinning guys well over 6'. They have never seen themselves as small or weak, and the guys that they have taken down, they have the training to do so without doing permanent damage to anyone. My one little brother caught a guy in the act of arson (lighting a pickup and quad on fire in a parking lot) and took them out no problem.

 

My oldest is a super gentle, sensitive guy. He is not a fighter, but it gives him confidence knowing that he is capable of defending himself and protecting those around him.

 

And just so no one misunderstands, I teach my dd the same things. She gets an extra dose of learning to use words and legs first though because she is much more feisty than her brothers and I don't want her starting a fight.

[Catwoman]

This thread is hysterical.

 

Everyone thinks they have all the answers if in their limited experience their kids were able to successfully defend themselves against bullies.

I'm just hoping my ds never has to try to defend himself against a bully, because let's face it, you can't always walk away and you can't always win a fight and you can't always call someone for help.

[unsinkable]

I'm just hoping my ds never has to try to defend himself against a bully, because let's face it, you can't always walk away and you can't always win a fight and you can't always call someone for help.

I hope so, too, Cat.

[Joker]

My dh, myself, and neither of our dds have ever been in a physical confrontation (none of my siblings were either growing up). We've each had a problem here or there with a bully or someone picking/pushing us, but it has never gone so far as to become physical. I have told my dds to fight if necessary - meaning someone was trying to physically hurt them or take them - but they've also been told to just walk away whenever possible. If it is bothering them to the point of crying and feeling bad, then that is something that would obviously need to be addressed but isn't something they need to physically fight their way out of. I don't think that's always the right answer. I actually feel it's rarely the right answer.

 

 

[Joker]

What does I have taught them to finish it really mean? How do they know it's finished? When the other person can't move? Is bloody? Cries uncle? The idea of telling my child to 'finish it' is bothersome to me. If my child was being hurt, I would hope they could defend themselves to the point of walking (or running) away. I wouldn't want them to keep going to 'finish things'.

[jewellsmommy]

We have taught dd and ds that you get away if and when  you can. If you are backed into a corner, then you come out swinging until you have created an exit. If you are restrained, then you fight back with everything you've got until you are free and can get away. The point is not to keep fighting until you "win" or until the bad guy has been put in their place etc. The point is to get away safely.

 

Defending others requires a lot of discernment, and we are teaching them to read situations and think it through. Sometimes involving an authority (parents or police) is the best way to help someone else, sometimes there is no time to do that and you have to act.

 

Our philosophy is that this lesson will serve them for life. I am not going to teach them one thing now and then change it later kwim? And if I was attacked in a parking lot, getting away is my priority not "finishing" a fight. The adult world is far removed from the playground. ...We talked a lot about how the Trayvon Martin situation could and should have ended differently.

 

 

 

 

[Dory]

What does I have taught them to finish it really mean? How do they know it's finished? When the other person can't move? Is bloody? Cries uncle? The idea of telling my child to 'finish it' is bothersome to me. If my child was being hurt, I would hope they could defend themselves to the point of walking (or running) away. I wouldn't want them to keep going to 'finish things'.

 

Ok, perhaps that is bad wording unless you live in my family. My kids know that to finish something you pin the guy while someone else gets an adult or help of some kinda. Finished would mean the other person is on the ground and no longer hurting anyone else. The goal is not to hurt the other person permanently either though. That approach is a last resort and not one to be used if you can at all walk away or talk things down. It is something we teach them to do though. It has served a lot of people in my family very well.

[Joker]

Ok, perhaps that is bad wording unless you live in my family. My kids know that to finish something you pin the guy while someone else gets an adult or help of some kinda. Finished would mean the other person is on the ground and no longer hurting anyone else. The goal is not to hurt the other person permanently either though. That approach is a last resort and not one to be used if you can at all walk away or talk things down. It is something we teach them to do though. It has served a lot of people in my family very well.

 

Okay. So, have you taught your child to keep the other pinned until help arrives no matter what? What if the kid says he can't breathe? I just find this kind of advice very problematic, especially when we're talking about our children and teens.

[Dory]

Okay. So, have you taught your child to keep the other pinned until help arrives no matter what? What if the kid says he can't breathe? I just find this kind of advice very problematic, especially when we're talking about our children and teens.

 

I don't expect others to take the same approach. I have never viewed this side of parenting as a one size fits all sort of thing. Yes they pin the person until helps comes. As a teenager, if the bully was unconscious when help arrived, I'd expect a lot of questioning, but I wouldn't bat an eye. They know that if the person is able to holler at them, they usually can breathe just fine. If the person is too quiet, it's time to move a little. I would hope like crazy that my youngest two wouldn't end up in a situation where they would have to use any of this yet at their age. None of my kids go anywhere alone either, so that adds safety. I've seen my brothers have to use the skills enough in this area that I wouldn't dream of sending my kids out around here without a few skills like this.

[poppy]

I don't expect others to take the same approach. I have never viewed this side of parenting as a one size fits all sort of thing. Yes they pin the person until helps comes. As a teenager, if the bully was unconscious when help arrived, I'd expect a lot of questioning, but I wouldn't bat an eye. They know that if the person is able to holler at them, they usually can breathe just fine. If the person is too quiet, it's time to move a little. I would hope like crazy that my youngest two wouldn't end up in a situation where they would have to use any of this yet at their age. None of my kids go anywhere alone either, so that adds safety. I've seen my brothers have to use the skills enough in this area that I wouldn't dream of sending my kids out around here without a few skills like this.

 

If you're giving advice to teens, keep the laws of your state in mind. Self defense is not usually enough to get you out of assault and battery charges, especially if the damage isn't proportional (he slapped me, so I  broke his arm) or  if you could have withdrawn and chose not to.

[Joker]

If you're giving advice to teens, keep the laws of your state in mind. Self defense is not usually enough to get you out of assault and battery charges, especially if the damage isn't proportional (he slapped me, so I  broke his arm) or  if you could have withdrawn and chose not to.

 

Yes. I've never known a single person that needed to pin down another for an extended period of time, so if I came upon a teen holding another kid down it would not be seen as okay. If I asked them to stop and they didn't until police arrived, then my story to police might not make that person look very good.

 

I have verbally stood up for myself many times, including to teen boys while in high school, and it was all that was needed. I have watched my brothers verbally stand up but walk away from a physical confrontation because it was the right thing to do. I look up to them and admire them for being able to do so. I don't understand others saying they 'have' to pin another human being down, especially in regards to the OP and kids bullying. It's so outside of my norm.

[Dory]

If you're giving advice to teens, keep the laws of your state in mind. Self defense is not usually enough to get you out of assault and battery charges, especially if the damage isn't proportional (he slapped me, so I  broke his arm) or  if you could have withdrawn and chose not to.

 

Indeed that would be a rather wild reaction to a slap.

 

Yes. I've never known a single person that needed to pin down another for an extended period of time, so if I came upon a teen holding another kid down it would not be seen as okay. If I asked them to stop and they didn't until police arrived, then my story to police might not make that person look very good.

 

I have verbally stood up for myself many times, including to teen boys while in high school, and it was all that was needed. I have watched my brothers verbally stand up but walk away from a physical confrontation because it was the right thing to do. I look up to them and admire them for being able to do so. I don't understand others saying they 'have' to pin another human being down, especially in regards to the OP and kids bullying. It's so outside of my norm.

 

I have seen scenarios where a person needed to be pinned for awhile. When knives are ganging up on people is happening, those are the times that I am glad we were taught how to fight properly. I do teach my kids that in normal situations, when walking away or talking is an option, the better man always tries to take the road with the least violence possible.

[Mergath]

Two words: Krav Maga. That's all. :)

 

I hope you're not implying that we should encourage children to resort to a martial art that teaches one to use brutal attacks against a person's eyes or throat or other vulnerable spots to solve their problems.  Bullying is certainly a huge problem, but not one that is going to be solved by teaching kids to murder each other.  :001_huh:

[LucyStoner]

I am a strange blend.

 

I was raised to turn the other cheek.

 

But I have also been willing to throw down. In general, the turn the other cheek wins out and works for me. But there have been times when my more physically brash instincts have come out. I have been involved in physical altercations in the defense of myself and others. Sometimes nonviolence just doesn't work. As a survivor of sexual assault, learning a martial art was very therapeutic in many ways.

 

Because my older autistic son doesn't read cues well and weighs nothing soaking wet, I have really focused on walking away. Walking away first, second and third. My worry is that he would take something that wasn't a big deal and make it into a bigger deal. So we have not really taught him to fight back in a physical way.

 

I wish I could live out the ideal and excellent example of my parents, especially my mother, but honestly I am not that good of a person. I think I have made progress towards being less hair trigger and that is the best I can do.

[Mergath]

I was in the Army and studied several martial arts during high school and college, so I could certainly teach my dd a thing or two about fighting.  But I always tell her that if someone tries to hurt her, she needs to run away somewhere safe, or to someone who can help her.  When you're talking about kids, I've never seen a situation where adding more violence would make things better.  Violence is not a prerequisite to standing up for yourself, and in a culture like ours that romanticizes violence, running away instead of punching back is almost always the more difficult choice, but in my mind, the better one.

 

Life isn't like in the movies.  Bullies don't magically stop being bullies if you punch them, though I know it's a nice thing to believe.  They just look for a weaker victim next time.  And honestly, I don't know how walking or running away wouldn't solve the problem.  If someone was following my dd around and continually assaulting her, I'd call the police.  That's what I'd do if I had an adult following me around a park, pushing me down and hitting me, so I don't know why we expect kids to handle it on their own.