Fraught with danger this is, but you asked. So, here is an overview of my experience with ATI & Bill Gothard. PT 1

[mommaduck]

 

When my oldest was a baby, I asked another woman at church about date nights. This ATI mom of six or seven looked at me and asked, "Why would I ever want time away from my kids?" Way to help a new, struggling mom out! Between that comment and the Vision Forum worshippers, it was not any easy place to be when adjusting to parenthood. I didn't need platitiudes about children always being a blessing or wouldn't it be great to have 15-20 kids or blah blah blah. Looking back, I should have found a secular group of new moms - women who wouldn't feel sinful for saying that they weren't enjoying being moms like they expected.

 

I'm afraid I caused a distanced between myself and an old friend on the parenting level because I said stuff like that and was a bit of a know it all type personality :( We're still good friends, but I don't give advice unless asked for. I even have to be careful with my husband's cousin, because I think she takes it negatively rather than as helpful (there is a lot of difference in what she deals with also...single parenthood, aging parents, etc).

 

[Running the race]

I attended the Basic and Advanced Seminar in the 90's. Obviously, I wasn't paying attention very well, or I just dismissed the stuff I didn't agree with right away. We moved on and I gave the books to Goodwill years ago. I'm SO sorry for those who suffered under his teaching.

[Alenee]

After reading this thread I'm fairly certain I have a few friends and/or acquaintances that were under this teaching for a time. I'm so thankful they aren't now!

 

Had it been introduced to me at a certain time, I'm sure I would've easily been influenced. Again, so thankful I learned about it later rather than earlier!

[LucyStoner]

I went to BLP seminar when I was in junior high, it is was one with him live and not video feed. I went (as a girl from a hippie Catholic liberal home) because my best friend's parents invited me. After the first day, I only went back because it was my friend and I enjoyed the food we got to eat (we were at the Seattle Center and I was always partial to The Frankfurter ;) ). I know, how very lame of me. I took a lot of notes. I also realized that I was sitting there in jeans while pants for girls were being called out as bad. If my parents had realized what it was, they would have never let me go.

 

What I saw was a fraudulent, half crazy person. Total charlatan. And the little charts of authority within the family. OMFG! He also perpetuated a play acted attack by a demon possessed man and then the man's healing via prayer. Literally we went from seeing a guy leap on stage to attack Bill Gothard to that same guy (and his estranged father, who just happened to be present in the arena!) ask us to sing his favorite hymn in about 15 minutes. Talk about comedy. Well, it would be comedy if it didn't so seriously harm so many people. My friend who went with me has travelled a bit down that road as an adult. It pains me but at least her husband isn't a tryannical crazy person as far as I can tell. I must admit that I can't take people who hold him in high esteem seriously. I feel very sorry for them.

[Mommyfaithe]

I have been friends with 2 ATI families for over 20 years. They have relaxed and loosened up a lot since I first met them. They had no choice or they would have lost relationship with some of their children.

 

Here are some things I encountered that they tried to "teach" or "encourage" me to do and think about:

 

*Dresses and skirts only for females, pants were men's clothing or too revealing of the women's anatomy. Even women's clothing, jewelry and makeup was to follow certain guidelines.

*All natural everything, if you could manage it. No birth control at all, home births, natural medicine, cloth diapers, breast feeding, grain grinding, etc.

*Pearl and Enzo style child training. Blanket training a mobile infant. Letting babies cry it out to get them on a sleep schedule. Having older children provide child care and housekeeping for the busy mother.

*Courtship, purity rings

*homeschooling with religious exemption

* No college for girls, only ATI training schools. Apprenticeships for boys.

*No TV, no rock style music

*Creation science all the way

* and every single thing that goes wrong is a result of a sin in your life. My friend was certain that her varicose veins were because she had used birth control when she was first married. It had nothing to do with the fact she had born 5 children at the time. (Now she has 11)

*There was a great deal of talk about "carnal" christians.

 

I am sooo thankful my husband wasn't the slightest bit interested in going to one of the lectures that would come through our area. The influence these women had on me was bad enough. I ended up depressed and with a case of scrupulosity. I felt like I couldn't do anything right because I was so sinful and these people were so much better at the true christian life than I was. It was later that I began to see the inconsistencies that happened more and more and were justified even though they still remain involved with ATI to some extent. These two families gave up stressing manyof the above things because they valued their marriage and their children more. In later years, I suggested to one of my friends that ATI was cult like and she still disagreed, even though she had just been expressing regrets about how she had raised some of her children and the way she had related to her husband.

This is very close to my experience as well, including the depression and never feeling good enough. I still battle that now, years later from the influence of these women. If they only knew the damage they caused to new Christians, new Homeschool moms etc. I think they would be aghast! Seriously, I do not think they realize the extent of damage they have caused not only to my family and kids, but to my friends and many others.

 

I am no longer in touch with any of these people, and I do wonder about the outcome with their kids and marriages, but not enough to actually touch base with any of them! Lol.

[DawnM]

Basic Youth Conflict crap, er, um, I mean stuff, used to be pretty mainstream among conservative groups.

 

I went to one in middle school.  I walked out.   Gothard got up and said, "As a Christian you should be extra careful about adopting a child.  I would strong advise against it.  The Bible says that the sins of the father are among the children and you never know what 'sins' you are going to get and bring in to your home."

 

I will NEVER forget it.  I am an adoptee.  I have now adopted.  What a load of poop that man spews.  

 

And yet, my parents went and took notes and quoted him on occasion.  

 

Thankfully they didn't get too involved.  I was strongly encouraged to attend college, and even graduate school, and have a career.  

[Parrothead]

Wow! Just, em... Wow! I'm apparently pretty insulated within my faith and friends. I had no idea this kind of thing could take hold and last so long within Christian communities. How does one not see it for the sham it is? Does one's pastor or minister condone this guy and his brand of crazy? If so, how is it the pastor/minster isn't run out of town for suggesting his congregation follow this Gothard loser? Where is the critical thinking? Where is the Bible in these followers lives? Are they not reading it? Well, I suppose not if they follow this lunatic.

 

Im sorry if I sound judgmental. I'm not al all judging. I'm just incredulous that anyone would get sucked in and don't understand how that happens. How does this happen? Is it because there isn't administrative oversight? I know within my church if someone tried to introduce this type thing it would get shut down by the bishops office before it lasted... What? 30 years?

 

I sincerely don't get how this takes off and people don't see these cult leaders for what they are. What are they searching for so desperately that they fall for this?

[livetoread]

IMO, one of the biggest dangers of this and other similar movements (Hyes, Jones etc.) is the perfect storm of conditions that make abuse more likely.

 

You take strict lines of authority, unquestioning obedience, not just encouragement but insistence on corporal punishment, isolation from outsiders, and an extreme mistrust of any gov't authority, and you have a recipe for physical abuse to flourish. Couple that with repressive sexual ideas and add sexual abuse.

 

The memoir "I Fired God" makes this clear. The author had the misfortune of growing up with a monster for a father, which can happen to anyone. But you can see the unique way the culture fed and protected his abuse, and men like him. Not only are abusive men drawn to the power they can wield here, they can continue their abuse because no one believes the kids, and no one will involve outsiders to investigate. When you think the father has all the authority for a family, and you think beating a child is godly, there is little energy for dealing with a man who "takes it a little too far". Then there is the sexual abuse which is blamed on the girl for causing godly men to stumble (if believed at all). The author's father is still a pastor, as is the author's brother who also abused her.

[MyThreeSons]

How does one not see it for the sham it is? Does one's pastor or minister condone this guy and his brand of crazy?

In my case, I was a new Mom and a new Christian. I had grown up nominally Christian, but the church I started attending had people who lived Christianity. It didn't just happen on Sundays and while saying grace before meals and prayers at bedtime. The children were polite, very well-behaved, and smiled all the time. I wanted that!

 

These people seemed to have it all together. Our pastor's family was one of the most die-hard Gothard following families. He had a PhD, and was much more educated in Biblical things than I was. If it worked for him and his beautiful family, it was good enough for me.

 

And then there was the sense of belonging. I was never one who was in the inner circle of any group. And I still wasn't at this church, because we never joined ATI. But by going to a couple of the seminars and a follow-up study in a small group, I was getting to know the lingo and could at least belong peripherally.

[G5052]

These people seemed to have it all together. Our pastor's family was one of the most die-hard Gothard following families. He had a PhD, and was much more educated in Biblical things than I was. If it worked for him and his beautiful family, it was good enough for me.

 

Yes, that's the pull. 

 

The rhetoric is still troubling though.  "If my father approves of my marriage, the Lord will bless it."  "If we home school, our children won't rebel."  "if we eat this way, we won't have cancer and heart disease." "If my husband tell us to do X, it is right."  "if you always do home birth, your children will be born healthy and the mom won't have complications." "If the wife stays home and doesn't work, the Lord will provide for your financial needs." "If you obey your adult parents in life decisions, the results will be wonderful."

 

We live in a fallen, flawed world.  Sometimes bad things happen to the best of people. And our faith is about a relationship with the living God, not a set of rules.

[Onceuponatime]

This program is touted as ultra-biblical. Studying the Bible is stressed and encouraged, but through certain lenses. Scriptures are taken out of context and twisted. Convoluted logic is used that sounds all right when you first hear it. There is an ultra-conservative protestant, sola-scriptura, basis. So, those in other faith practices probably would not be affected at all. At first this appeals to those who are unsure about themselves and their security of salvation. It's a way to do things "right" especially if you are prone to OCD or anxiety. When you are homeschooling, have a house full of kids and doing everything by hand or by scratch, it's easy to skip personal study to see if things are really kosher.

[*Michelle*]

It's so odd with the emphasis on homebirth and grinding your wheat and all of that.  There's such an overlap between what I've always considered a "crunchy" lifestyle and this ultra-strict religious group.  It makes me wonder if some of the very strident sites I see about these commonalities are coming from an ATI background or if they've been unknowingly influenced by it.  I mean, until I read all of this, if I was speaking with someone who shared that they are homeopaths, make everything from scratch, homebirth, etc., I would just assume they were into organic living.  I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, but it just strikes me as odd.

 

On a side note, if everything is supposed to be natural, how are the Duggars getting away with tater-tot casserole? :D

[Parrothead]

In my case, I was a new Mom and a new Christian. I had grown up nominally Christian, but the church I started attending had people who lived Christianity. It didn't just happen on Sundays and while saying grace before meals and prayers at bedtime. The children were polite, very well-behaved, and smiled all the time. I wanted that!

 

These people seemed to have it all together. Our pastor's family was one of the most die-hard Gothard following families. He had a PhD, and was much more educated in Biblical things than I was. If it worked for him and his beautiful family, it was good enough for me.

 

And then there was the sense of belonging. I was never one who was in the inner circle of any group. And I still wasn't at this church, because we never joined ATI. But by going to a couple of the seminars and a follow-up study in a small group, I was getting to know the lingo and could at least belong peripherally.

Wow. Thanks for telling me your story.

[Onceuponatime]

 

 

On a side note, if everything is supposed to be natural, how are the Duggars getting away with tater-tot casserole? :D

 

But was it homemade tatertot casserole? If it was put together by hand in any way, it counts.

 

 

Really, the crunchy stuff is partially from the anti- government, anti-big business, conspiracy theory mindset. A lot of these people are also "preppers."

Some of it is "getting back to the good old days when things were done right."

[KungFuPanda]

It's so odd with the emphasis on homebirth and grinding your wheat and all of that.  There's such an overlap between what I've always considered a "crunchy" lifestyle and this ultra-strict religious group.  It makes me wonder if some of the very strident sites I see about these commonalities are coming from an ATI background or if they've been unknowingly influenced by it.  I mean, until I read all of this, if I was speaking with someone who shared that they are homeopaths, make everything from scratch, homebirth, etc., I would just assume they were into organic living.  I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, but it just strikes me as odd.

 

On a side note, if everything is supposed to be natural, how are the Duggars getting away with tater-tot casserole? :D

Nah, I think that connection is a bit of a stretch. Most of the folks I know who grind their own wheat are just health conscious. The homebirthers I know are catholic or pagan. We don't really live in an ATI area. I guess these groups do have a DIY mindset in common, but that's a very general trait.

[Ravin]

It's so odd with the emphasis on homebirth and grinding your wheat and all of that. There's such an overlap between what I've always considered a "crunchy" lifestyle and this ultra-strict religious group. It makes me wonder if some of the very strident sites I see about these commonalities are coming from an ATI background or if they've been unknowingly influenced by it. I mean, until I read all of this, if I was speaking with someone who shared that they are homeopaths, make everything from scratch, homebirth, etc., I would just assume they were into organic living. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, but it just strikes me as odd.

 

On a side note, if everything is supposed to be natural, how are the Duggars getting away with tater-tot casserole? :D

The natural stuff aspect is very jarring to me because I've always associated it with attachment parenting, a la Mothering magazine, etc., which is very liberal, child centered, and embraced by people of many diverse faith backgrounds.

[Onceuponatime]

The natural stuff aspect is very jarring to me because I've always associated it with attachment parenting, a la Mothering magazine, etc., which is very liberal, child centered, and embraced by people of many diverse faith backgrounds.

 

Think of it as a desire to return to a pre-modern culture a la Little House on the Prairie. However, even Little House is too liberal for some.  Laura was of a feminist bent, you know.

[Mommyfaithe]

At first this appeals to those who are unsure about themselves and their security of salvation. It's a way to do things "right" especially if you are prone to OCD or anxiety. When you are homeschooling, have a house full of kids and doing everything by hand or by scratch, it's easy to skip personal study to see if things are really kosher.

This is EXACTLY what attracted me to these Gothard families....I needed a formula to do " Christianity right" and be assured of salvation not only for me, but especially for my kids. I was desperate to have stability. Dh was NOT impressed, and ironically...I submitted to his wishes! Rare around here! Lol.

[Onceuponatime]

This is EXACTLY what attracted me to these Gothard families....I needed a formula to do " Christianity right" and be assured of salvation not only for me, but especially for my kids. I was desperate to have stability. Dh was NOT impressed, and ironically...I submitted to his wishes! Rare around here! Lol.

 

This got me too. So much scare tactic teaching on what will happen to your children if you let the devil take hold of them. And the devil has so many disguises. :sad:

[unfrumpable.]

It's so odd with the emphasis on homebirth and grinding your wheat and all of that.  There's such an overlap between what I've always considered a "crunchy" lifestyle and this ultra-strict religious group.  It makes me wonder if some of the very strident sites I see about these commonalities are coming from an ATI background or if they've been unknowingly influenced by it.  I mean, until I read all of this, if I was speaking with someone who shared that they are homeopaths, make everything from scratch, homebirth, etc., I would just assume they were into organic living.  I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, but it just strikes me as odd.

 

On a side note, if everything is supposed to be natural, how are the Duggars getting away with tater-tot casserole? :D

 

I think I understand what you're saying. I always found it funny when I was frequenting a cloth diaper forum, how much overlap there is between liberal, crunchy hippies and strict, fundamental Christians. Both groups shared a lot of the same beliefs (for lack of a better word) such as homebirth, cloth diapers, breast feeding, cooking from scratch, etc etc, but for different reasons and often having completely different set of spiritual beliefs.

 

I've never heard of Gothard until this board. But when I was in my late teens (19ish) I did get pulled into the International Church of Christ.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=international+church+of+christ&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

 

I feel they are very cult like to a certain degree. They believe they are the only ones who have and know the truth, they push recruiting heavily, everyone has a "disciple" that they report to, dating is only with other church members with approval and no physical nothing ...  If there were rules beyond that for married couples, I don't know because I wasn't in that group. I left when they told me I needed to lose weight (15 lbs!),cut my hair, and dress nicer to attract more people to the church. After I left I received phone calls asking why I didn't love God anymore and how could I leave God, etc, etc. Belonging to this group really skewed my views and feelings on faith. I have tried multiple times to have some sort of faith, but I just can't get over the hump that this church left. I was atheist for many years, came back a few times to Christianity, and have been agnostic now for a while.

[unfrumpable.]

I also wanted to add what really drew me into the ICC. I was 19, had just finished up a year of very hard partying, didn't have very many friends, very unsure of myself and lacked confidence. When my friend invited me to the service, it was vastly different than the Catholic services I grew up with. It was fun! I had instant friends and dating as well! My friend was at college at the time and I think they really preyed, perhaps unintentionally, on those coming into college who lack confidence and don't have any friends. It really was a fun group of people and there were lots of fun activities, like sand volleyball. It was an instant social life.

[Dmmetler]

I was regularly attending a Vision forum type evangelical church with a friend of mine when I developed HELLP syndrome at 22 weeks, lost the baby, and nearly died. Being told that it was my fault that I'd lost the baby because I wasn't a good enough wife and a good enough Christian and that God knew I wasn't ready to be a parent was devastating. There were other warning signs before then, but that was about the last thing I could handle right then. I went through a big part of my pregnancy with DD scared to death that she was going to die, not because of medical reasons (although that was part of it) but because at some level, I believed it was my fault. And emotionally, I kind of still feel that way about the secondary infertility I'm dealing with now.

 

I'm still burned out feeling on churches in general-I drift in and out, mostly for DD's sake. Right now, her best friends at church aren't attending (one's older brother is in residential treatment several hours away, so the family goes on weekends to see him, and the other is now attending a Baptist church with a friend because she got involved in their kids' programs and likes being in a church with more than a handful of children), so I admit I'm not terribly motivated to go, either.

[Dmmetler]

I think I understand what you're saying. I always found it funny when I was frequenting a cloth diaper forum, how much overlap there is between liberal, crunchy hippies and strict, fundamental Christians. Both groups shared a lot of the same beliefs (for lack of a better word) such as homebirth, cloth diapers, breast feeding, cooking from scratch, etc etc, but for different reasons and often having completely different set of spiritual beliefs.

 

I grew up in a (conference) Mennonite area, and I've noticed the same thing-I think one reason why I get along well with the liberal, crunchy types is because I spent so many years with my Mennonite friends and loved just being accepted as part of their large families and learning the life skills with them, even though I was raised Methodist. I think that was also one reason why the conservative, Evangelical Vision Forum church felt comfortable at first, because so much of the lifestyle reminded me of the Mennonites. But the big difference is that the Mennonites I knew and know don't operate out of fear, and were very welcoming and accepting even if you didn't do what they did. That is, you could have a mother in a mid-calf prairie skirt and prayer cap with similarly dressed children happily talking to a mother in cut off jeans and a rock band t-shirt, who's child was wearing a romper with definite innuendo printed on the front, and there really wasn't any feeling of pressure, proselyting, or promise that all your problems would be solved if you just put on a dress and did what they did.

[mommaduck]

Basic Youth Conflict crap, er, um, I mean stuff, used to be pretty mainstream among conservative groups.

 

I went to one in middle school.  I walked out.   Gothard got up and said, "As a Christian you should be extra careful about adopting a child.  I would strong advise against it.  The Bible says that the sins of the father are among the children and you never know what 'sins' you are going to get and bring in to your home."

 

I will NEVER forget it.  I am an adoptee.  I have now adopted.  What a load of poop that man spews.  

 

And yet, my parents went and took notes and quoted him on occasion.  

 

Thankfully they didn't get too involved.  I was strongly encouraged to attend college, and even graduate school, and have a career.  

 

Yeah, so much for taking care of the orphans, right?

 

[mommaduck]

This is EXACTLY what attracted me to these Gothard families....I needed a formula to do " Christianity right" and be assured of salvation not only for me, but especially for my kids. I was desperate to have stability. Dh was NOT impressed, and ironically...I submitted to his wishes! Rare around here! Lol.

 

THIS is what sucks most women in.

[lllll]

..

[lllll]

..

[JumpyTheFrog]

I think some of the emphasis on natural living comes from a distrust of medical doctors that it sounds like ATI teaches. I think another part might come from not having enough money to live other ways because of the large, single income families. Also, some people just like to be "anti" things, out of pride.

[DawnM]

Let me tell you a funny.

 

We went to a Holy Roller type church for a while when we lived in the USA.

 

They preached healing, going up front for holy oil and laying on of hands, etc.....they often spoke against doctors.

 

My father is a doctor.  He is a surgeon.  But the PASTOR and his sons, who were assoc. pastors, would go to him as their "family practice" doc on the down low.

 

Let's just say my dad wasn't totally sold on that church, but my mom seemed to like it more.

 

Thankfully we weren't there long and went back overseas, but I found it very funny and that was my first taste of "truly crazy Christians."

 

And my mother wonders why I am such a cynic.  :glare:

 

Dawn

 

 

I think some of the emphasis on natural living comes from a distrust of medical doctors that it sounds like ATI teaches. I think another part might come from not having enough money to live other ways because of the large, single income families. Also, some people just like to be "anti" things, out of pride.

 

[Parrothead]

THIS is what sucks most women in.

I'm just gobsmacked.

[Parrothead]

Yes, one of my kids is seeing this at a large college he attends.

 

In fact, my ds has been trying to find a good church in the town, and says most of them are shallow and gimmicky and specifically target the college students. And these kids are so young and so vulnerable, lacking discernment of any kind. It's very sad, IMO, because some of these kids are truly searching for answers - and these churches and organizations are feeding them nothing but shallow fluff. All milk (if that, even) and no meat, so to speak .... basically a slow, spiritual starvation, unbeknownst to the kids themselves.

I hope he finds a place. Has he tried any of the more mainstream Christian churches? Most Lutheran and Methodist churches seem to have pretty solid teaching. Of course there is either the Catholic Church or the EO church if he wouldn't have a problem with either. Oh, or Anglican. That might be a good fit.

 

Anyway I hope he finds his place soon.

[Parrothead]

Yes, one of my kids is seeing this at a large college he attends.

 

In fact, my ds has been trying to find a good church in the town, and says most of them are shallow and gimmicky and specifically target the college students. And these kids are so young and so vulnerable, lacking discernment of any kind. It's very sad, IMO, because some of these kids are truly searching for answers - and these churches and organizations are feeding them nothing but shallow fluff. All milk (if that, even) and no meat, so to speak .... basically a slow, spiritual starvation, unbeknownst to the kids themselves.

I hope he finds a place. Has he tried any of the more mainstream Christian churches? Most Lutheran and Methodist churches seem to have pretty solid teaching. Of course there is either the Catholic Church or the EO church if he wouldn't have a problem with either. Oh, or Anglican. That might be a good fit.

 

Anyway I hope he finds his place soon.

[TeacherZee]

The natural stuff aspect is very jarring to me because I've always associated it with attachment parenting, a la Mothering magazine, etc., which is very liberal, child centered, and embraced by people of many diverse faith backgrounds.

 

 

Think of it as a desire to return to a pre-modern culture a la Little House on the Prairie. However, even Little House is too liberal for some.  Laura was of a feminist bent, you know.

 

A friend of mine once described the local farmers market as the one place where hippies and (small c) conservatives mixed every week. :D

[lllll]

..

[mommaduck]

I hope he finds a place. Has he tried any of the more mainstream Christian churches? Most Lutheran and Methodist churches seem to have pretty solid teaching. Of course there is either the Catholic Church or the EO church if he wouldn't have a problem with either. Oh, or Anglican. That might be a good fit.

 

Anyway I hope he finds his place soon.

 

Because of all the whackjob stuff I've seen and experienced elsewhere, I find a safety within the RC and EO (granted, I'm EO, but I see the same kind of safety in the RC also...the protection from the fringe stuff.

[Laurie4b]

I think I understand what you're saying. I always found it funny when I was frequenting a cloth diaper forum, how much overlap there is between liberal, crunchy hippies and strict, fundamental Christians. Both groups shared a lot of the same beliefs (for lack of a better word) such as homebirth, cloth diapers, breast feeding, cooking from scratch, etc etc, but for different reasons and often having completely different set of spiritual beliefs.

 

 

I think part of the common denominator is both groups are in the tail ends of the normal curve--not in the mainstream, and willing to reject and question the mainstream. I've found homeschool groups to consistently have this inverted normal curve of very left-leaning hippie types and very right leaning theological conservatives. But both groups reject the "conveyer belt" schooling, etc. It's a suspicion of what they are being "sold" whether literally or figuratively. There is a good impulse in there to question, but sometimes it can go too far and result in their own "bubble" thinking.

 

[DawnM]

Waiting for Part 2........

[Lisa R.]

Just some clarification:

 

Back before the mid-80s, Gothard was a big name in evangelical circles. I went to his basic seminar in a large sports area that was filled. However, back in the 70s and very early 80s, he wasn't as far out. Sure, he took Bible verses out of context and had a few nutty ideas, but he was almost mainstream. He provided people with a framework, albeit an often faulty framework, where people could live successful Christian lives. It was comforting to people to be given a formula on how to make marriage and childrearing successful.

 

Staring sometime in the 80s, maybe mid-80s, he came out with his advanced seminar. That's when things got weirder and progressively legalistic. Homeschooling was gaining more awareness around this time, too. The advanced seminar Gothard got into specifics about family size/birth control, homeschooling only, home birthing, grinding grain/homemade bread, weird health ideas and so on. Once he went down this path, his following got significantly smaller. 

 

Now, his seminars are much, much smaller and confined to an almost fringe group of Christians. 

 

So, Gothard has really changed, in my opinion, over the years. If you hear older people talking about Gothard, their experiences may sound much more normal than those who follow him today.

 

Disclaimer: This is in no way a defense of Gothard. I'm just trying to explain why so many people may have gotten sucked in. He was in error about many things a couple decades ago, but he is substantially weirder and even less Biblical now. 

[JumpyTheFrog]

Lisa, thank for for the explanation. I think him becoming more extreme over time makes more sense than huge crowds going to see him decades ago, mostly ignoring him, but not denouncing him either.

[mommaduck]

He may have gotten worse, but, yes, he was faulty to begin with. There is no such thing as a one size fits all "formula" that makes a person a "successful Christian". In fact, there is NO such thing as a "successful Christian". Instead, it creates a false dichotomy.

[tex-mex]

I sincerely don't get how this takes off and people don't see these cult leaders for what they are. What are they searching for so desperately that they fall for this?

 

You'd be amazed at the sheer number of people who fall under the spell of leadership like this... :sad: and not just religion either. 

[mamaraby]

family size/birth control, homeschooling only, home birthing, grinding grain/homemade bread, weird health ideas and so on. Once he went down this path, his following got significantly smaller.

What are the Gothard dietary/health ideas. I'm more familiar with the VF stuff than I am with Gothard. From what I've seen of the more visible super families in the ATI circle there didn't seem anything all that healthy about what they eat.

[FaithManor]

I want to state that my family was not an ATI family. What happened to me was at the hands of ATI pastors

and teachers at a private school. I was placed there on the assumption that it would be so much better due

to the intense bullying and sexual harrassment in my PS middle school which was much like "Lord of the

Flies" on steroids. Since I was already clinically depressed, it took them a while to drag the details

about life a at school out of me. They Yanked me immediately when I finally broke.

 

 

My parents were wonderful parents and never taken in by ATI. They did what they thought was best and when they found out what was happening; I also received appropriate mental health help when they realized they

needed expertise.

 

Dad fudged some background info on himself, got an ATI pastor to believe he was truly converting, and

landed a spot for the week long Advanced Institute since I had been forced to attend and held against

my will when "secular" parents were told we were going to an academic Christian school convention. I was not under lock and key. I was accompanied at all times,no privacy in the bathroom, etc. so I couldn't get

access to a phone. These people truly believed I would be saved by the end of the week so I would be

nothing but a sweetheart with godly stories to tell my parents.

 

What dad learned from his week with ATI convinced him it was an abusive, cult-like organization.

 

The good news is my parents helper me get better, and I am a healthy, whole person. By college, I had

completely moved on.

 

I am on my kindle which is not convenient to post from. So I will start part 2 sometime tomorrow.

 

Faith

[staceyobu]

Because of all the whackjob stuff I've seen and experienced elsewhere, I find a safety within the RC and EO (granted, I'm EO, but I see the same kind of safety in the RC also...the protection from the fringe stuff.

 

I get where you are coming from... but the RC has also been plagued with child abuse and cover up.  I think it may be a false sense of safety.  

[mommaduck]

I get where you are coming from... but the RC has also been plagued with child abuse and cover up.  I think it may be a false sense of safety.  

 

 

It's not safety against human failing.

It's safety against personal interpretation of scriptures that feed human failing.

 

 

Patty Joanna answered it better than I could.

 

I also want to point out that my iPhone auto-corrects Gothard to "got hard."

 

8.•O

 

LOL! Sorry, couldn't help laughing at that one.

[mommaduck]

What are the Gothard dietary/health ideas. I'm more familiar with the VF stuff than I am with Gothard. From what I've seen of the more visible super families in the ATI circle there didn't seem anything all that healthy about what they eat.

 

If I remember correctly, he took a semi-pseudo-Jewish approach. Pig meat...blech! Not that it's wrong to not want to eat it (believe me, we quit eating it for a time after working on hog farms)...it's more the legalism and attributes to spiritual conditions. One thing you have to understand about Gothard is that he attributes all these "things" to affecting a person's spiritual condition. I don't know all the dietary rules and his reasoning. I would have to look that one up. I do remember an ATI friend of mine being OBSESSED with her diet though and some of that was due to Gothard, imo.

 

I know Hyles had some strange ideas also. I read his book on raising children (don't read it! You'll either laugh or get ticked). One of his pieces of advice was to never give your children seasoned, spicy, or "exotic" food (read ethnic or rich). His reasoning is that the children will like it and it will make them picky...they will want the well seasoned food over the bland (some kids, yes, and some kids, no...in my children's case, "duh!" and I LOVE my ethnic foods and spicy foods....even better, spicy ethnic foods!)

[Dory]

My aunt loved Bill Gothard. She still does last I heard. My parents went to conferences when I was younger, so early to mid 80's. From what I've seen they weren't that far off from that mindset all on their own. People follow it because there is already something there that resonates with what they want. The guys maybe want to feel like god and the women want an illusion of stability. There are few things I have as much disgust for as ATI.

[Onceuponatime]

What are the Gothard dietary/health ideas. I'm more familiar with the VF stuff than I am with Gothard. From what I've seen of the more visible super families in the ATI circle there didn't seem anything all that healthy about what they eat.

 

From what I've seen, the Old Testament dietary laws are encouraged. In fact many of the Old Testament laws are touted as the best way to live. And the blessings and curses are still assumed to apply. My friend specifically talked about husband/wife physical relationship, women's physical issues, especially regarding TTOTM and s**.

[kiwik]

Of course if you have 15 kids to home school, grow and grind your own wheat, weave your own nappies from cotton you grew organically etc you will be less incline to attempt to usurp your husband's rightful position in the house.

[ktgrok]

I can see how one could be sucked in. People, most people but not all, like structure of some sort. Structure that is often missing in modern society. Some of us end up in the RC or EO faith partly because we do want and crave that structure. But I could see someone being exposed to this stuff and falling in to it for some of the same reasons. (I am NOT saying the two things are the same, I am saying people might be drawn to them or find comfort in them for some of the same reasons).