The kid and separation

[unfrumpable.]

My husband and I just started an amicable trial separation. It has been almost three weeks. I am living with my son in my mom's house. My dh has an apartment.

 

Our son does not want to see his dad at all. He is very adamant and defiant about visiting. The last time he saw his dad was the 29th of last month as we were all cleaning up our apartment. We had moved out a week before that. Everything was fine then.

 

DH wants to start visiting and see our son, but we both want it to be a positive experience.

 

What to do? I would be visiting too, not just dropping ds off. We want to still do stuff as a family. I even told ds that we would bring the dogs over too, but he is not having any of it.

 

Ds is seven, will be eight in October.

[Ellie]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

This is JMHO, ok?

 

Don't try to do things as a "family." Y'all are no longer a "family." You cannot make the situation better by trying to pretend that y'all are still a "family." When you're a family, the parents live together (except for work or whatnot, you know).

 

Your ds knows this. That's why he's acting the way he is.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to force your ds to see his father.

[Mrs Mungo]

Are you seeing a family counselor? Does your son have a reason that he doesn't want to see his dad (anger management issues or something)?

[unfrumpable.]

Are you seeing a family counselor? Does your son have a reason that he doesn't want to see his dad (anger management issues or something)?

No, no counseling and no anger management issues. He just came to me after cleaning his room and said he does want to see his dad tomorrow, that he didn't think before he spoke. So, we'll see.

[Rosie_0801]

Remember, a man's relationship with his son is his responsibility, not yours.

 

It is your duty to do your best to avoid damaging it.

It is not your duty to make the relationship happen.

[Rosie_0801]

Don't do the family thing unless you have a really good reason. It sucks. If either of you are hoping for reconciliation, it's a great way to make sure it never happens.

[Ravin]

I don't necessarily agree about the "family thing" issue, it depends a lot on the reasons for the separation and what kind of relationship you're building toward.

 

But, as far as your DH spending time with your son, it might help to not think of or refer to it as "visiting." You visit relatives and friends, not parents. He is still a parent. Even if it's less time parenting than you have as your son is residing with you, it's still time with parents.

 

Which parent is caring for him when and whether he spends time with one or both parents is not a 7yo.'s decision to make--not now any more than it was when you were all under the same roof. It might be better to have him with his dad 1 on 1at least part of the time to reinforce this.

 

That said, a PP's suggestion of family counseling is a very good one. It might help y'all understand and help your son (and yourselves) deal with the emotions around the separation.

[Ravin]

Double post.

[Ellie]

Don't do the family thing unless you have a really good reason. It sucks. If either of you are hoping for reconciliation, it's a great way to make sure it never happens.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Joanne]

In the absence of abuse or addiction, I'd help ds with the feelings, but "make" him spend time with his Dad. Dad is a PARENT, not a visitor, guest, or optional.

 

I think ds needs help with the separation process, a vocabulary around it, and to be intentionally parented through it. All feelings from him need to be safe, their expression safe, and he needs to be directly and intentionally talked to.

[Halftime Hope]

Don't do the family thing unless you have a really good reason. It sucks. If either of you are hoping for reconciliation, it's a great way to make sure it never happens.

 

Rosie, I don't mean this in a contentious way, but can you explain?  Why?

[unfrumpable.]

In the absence of abuse or addiction, I'd help ds with the feelings, but "make" him spend time with his Dad. Dad is a PARENT, not a visitor, guest, or optional.

 

I think ds needs help with the separation process, a vocabulary around it, and to be intentionally parented through it. All feelings from him need to be safe, their expression safe, and he needs to be directly and intentionally talked to.

 

No abuse or addiction.

 

I appreciate all the advice and opinions.

[Rosie_0801]

Rosie, I don't mean this in a contentious way, but can you explain?  Why?

When you create an environment which highlights that your previous spouse makes a better ex than current, you get to feeling that the current arrangement is vastly superior to the disarray that led to the separation.

 

Is that the sort of answer you were looking for?

[Reflections]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I'm sure this is very confusing for your ds.  I would expect a lot of waffling back and forth.  And I would expect for him to not know where his loyalties lie.  He may say stuff about not wanting to visit with his dad because he wants you to be happy. 

 

If my husband wants to see ds and there is no reason not too, and my ds was having a hard time, I would keep it light but would maybe encourage a visit at a neutral place like a park or some sort of thing. Try really hard not to argue in front of your ds.

 

Has your dh seen where you have moved to?  Has he seen ds bedroom?  These are small for us, but big for little kids.  

 

There is not one easy answer and none of them are one size fits all.

[Catwoman]

I don't have any direct personal experience with this, so I'll leave the advice for others who can be of help to you, but I wanted to send you some :grouphug: and to tell you that I think it's great that you are trying to work things out amicably and that your main concern is helping your ds deal with all of the changes.

 

You're a great mom!!! :hurray:

[Guest]

I don't necessarily agree about the "family thing" issue, it depends a lot on the reasons for the separation and what kind of relationship you're building toward.

 

But, as far as your DH spending time with your son, it might help to not think of or refer to it as "visiting." You visit relatives and friends, not parents. He is still a parent. Even if it's less time parenting than you have as your son is residing with you, it's still time with parents.

 

Which parent is caring for him when and whether he spends time with one or both parents is not a 7yo.'s decision to make--not now any more than it was when you were all under the same roof. It might be better to have him with his dad 1 on 1at least part of the time to reinforce this.

 

That said, a PP's suggestion of family counseling is a very good one. It might help y'all understand and help your son (and yourselves) deal with the emotions around the separation.

 

Unless the goal is reconciliation, I agree with the poster that says not to do the family thing.  Heck, even if it IS the goal, I still wouldn't encourage it if that goal is a long way off.  I remember my parents trying to do that.  Trying to act like it was all well and good.  I wasn't much older than the OP's ds.  I also wasn't stupid.  I knew better than to think that it was ok.  I saw and felt the tenseness.  It was SO much better when our father would take us away from our home and do something with us.  When they were together, no matter how hard they tried...it wasn't even close to the same as being a whole, complete family.

 

OP....give him some time.  He is probably mad at the world right now and feeling like he has no control over his situation.  I would also encourage finding him someone neutral to talk to.  

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:

[Scarlett]

It is difficult to know for sure with so few details, but I agree with Joanne. This isn't an uncle or some family friend.....it is his father. The boy deserves his father in his life and since he is too young to understand all of that you and his father have to make him do what you think is best.

 

And I say this as a mother who was so devastated by my xhs actions I wished for a time my son would never again see his father.

 

I would not separate and then try to go on as if the family is in tact. I will say if you get along that well maybe separation is not the answer. Divorce is hard on kids. I would have done almost anything to avoid it for my sons sake.

[Murphy101]

In the absence of abuse or addiction, I'd help ds with the feelings, but "make" him spend time with his Dad. Dad is a PARENT, not a visitor, guest, or optional.

 

I think ds needs help with the separation process, a vocabulary around it, and to be intentionally parented through it. All feelings from him need to be safe, their expression safe, and he needs to be directly and intentionally talked to.

Joanne and I almost never agree on anything, but with the details so far presented, I agree with her on this one.

[elegantlion]

I have no advice, but if you need a listening ear, you can PM me anytime.  :grouphug:   :grouphug:

[Alexigail]

I haven't had this experience as a mom, but my parents had a very amicable divorce when I was young and it was terribly confusing and difficult for me. Kids (even older ones) will often fill in the blanks with their own reasoning and their own fears. Even as a teenager, I was very confused about what was going on when my dad moved out.

Because of that, I would be very very sure that my son knows that I'm not interested in him taking sides. I would also be sure that he knows that his father isn't "leaving" him - this is a mutual decision. Be honest, but don't go into detail about what isn't working between you and your husband. If you don't know what is going to happen in the long term, tell him that gently. At that age, I'd emphasize that this wasn't your son's fault. I'd find out if there's anything else bothering him about it. And then I'd probably repeat all of that fairly often.

 

 

I tend to think that the longer he is away from his dad the harder it will be for him to deal with the separation. I really hope you find some peace with all of this. It sounds like you are all handling it well and I think that your son will be ok. Oh, and be sure to take care of yourself too!

[Dory]

With my separation, my youngest didn't want to see my dh at all. The first time I let my dh know that Ian needed some one on one time and him and I spent a little time cuddling and talking and playing together. The next time I told him that it was his daddy and that was where he needed to be. We talked about it every time. He has always been bluntly honest about whether he wants to be there or not. I made my dh aware of it and he spent a little more time reassessing how he was approaching the boy. It has improved.

 

As for doing things as a family. We didn't for a little bit, but it was so, so, so much easier on the kids when we started doing them again.

[Anne in CA]

Visiting a loving parent should not be optional. My dh refused to see his father when he was 12 and his mother did not make him and it put a huge hole in his life that he probably did not begin to recover from until he was in his forties. Waiting for a child to be logical means waiting many YEARS.

[Liz CA]

Separation is difficult for children to understand. He may hear you say you want him to see his Dad but he sees you separating from his Dad. At this stage they don't really understand the different relationship between child / parent and husband / wife. It's all the same to him and he may feel he needs to show allegiance to you and do the same - separate, even though he does not know exactly why.

 

Talking with him repeatedly that his relationship with his Dad is not changing (it may be changing to some extent by the nature of separation or divorce but I would not go into that at this point) even if your relationship with your husband is different now, is crucial - and it's a difficult concept for kids to understand.

[unfrumpable.]

With my separation, my youngest didn't want to see my dh at all. The first time I let my dh know that Ian needed some one on one time and him and I spent a little time cuddling and talking and playing together. The next time I told him that it was his daddy and that was where he needed to be. We talked about it every time. He has always been bluntly honest about whether he wants to be there or not. I made my dh aware of it and he spent a little more time reassessing how he was approaching the boy. It has improved.

 

As for doing things as a family. We didn't for a little bit, but it was so, so, so much easier on the kids when we started doing them again.

Thank you for your insight!

[Halftime Hope]

When you create an environment which highlights that your previous spouse makes a better ex than current, you get to feeling that the current arrangement is vastly superior to the disarray that led to the separation.

 

Is that the sort of answer you were looking for?

 

I wasn't looking for any specific kind of answer, just didn't understand, since I haven't thought through these issues in a younger family.

 

In our extended family, MIL separated from FIL when they were in their early-seventies, but it was with the express intent of their *not* getting back together.  Interestingly, they had no intention of divorcing.  We still continued to meet together as a extended family for dinners and holidays and everyone got along, although of course the two of them "played nice" when everyone was together.  If not for their ability to cooperate and put on their game faces, it would have been much harder for the family to get together.  The reality would have been that we'd have been with her sometimes and with him sometimes, so they'd each have seen their grandkids half as much.   

[unfrumpable.]

Thank you all for taking the time to respond.

 

I have a lot to think about now and to refer back to. :)

 

I prefer not to share too many details. There is no pron/cheating/addiction/etc. I guess more like irreconcilable differences? :) Reconciliation is on the table, but it is a long separation, dh's lease is for nine months. Similar to his deployments while he was in the Navy. Everything is kind of up in the air right now. We are planning on "dating" starting sometime next month, possibly on our nine year anniversary. Neither of us has done anything like this before, so we're playing it by ear. I just want to be sure Ethan is getting plenty of daddy time too.

[unfrumpable.]

Well, my husband divorced his ex when their daughter was a baby.  It was amicable. His ex made sure he had dd whenever he wanted--weekends, summer vacations, etc. They made sure their child felt adored by all, which eventually included me and his ex's new husband.

 I don't think your son should be the one to decide right now--they need each other. My guess is that he doesn't want to seem disloyal to you. Is he capable of understanding  the process regarding separation, divorce, or getting back together?

We've talked to him regarding the separation. We decided on it about six weeks before our lease together was up in our apartment. I have talked to him about mommy and daddy needing some time apart and that there may be a possibility of us all living together again. He says the move is not bothering him and he is fine with it. I don't know how much he actually understands. I mentioned that I wanted to see daddy too and he said I could go and he would stay with grandma. I have not broached anything like divorce with him though, as my dh and I are not currently on that page.

[LucyStoner]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

This is JMHO, ok?

 

Don't try to do things as a "family." Y'all are no longer a "family." You cannot make the situation better by trying to pretend that y'all are still a "family." When you're a family, the parents live together (except for work or whatnot, you know).

 

Your ds knows this. That's why he's acting the way he is.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to force your ds to see his father.

 

I disagree with the bolded.  They are separated, not divorced and not at this time planning to divorce.  I was separated from my husband for a number of months while he worked on some issues he needed to work on.  We still did family activities and co-parented.  The goal of every separation is not dissolution of family.  

 

My parents were separated for years (never divorced officially but lived apart for more than a decade prior to my mother's death) and they were still a family and did family stuff together amicably- holidays, graduations, weddings etc.  They were even friends.  Unless there is abuse/safety involved, the best divorced parents recognize that they will be bound to their children's other parent until death and figure out a way to get along at family events like their children's weddings for the sake of their children.  My FIL wouldn't do this and it cost him his relationship with his children. 

 

I do agree that I wouldn't make my child see someone they REALLY didn't want to (barring court order).  I would get your son into counseling ASAP and see if that can be helpful in either understanding why your son doesn't want to see him or helpful in repairing the father/son relationship.  Most kids of split up parents want to see both of their parents.  I would be sensitive and respectful to his feelings of anger and distance.  

[Tita Gidge]

Bouncing off of WendyK's idea - what about a small video?  Something his dad can send, and he can receive (and process?) on his own end.  Then he can send a reply video and they can do this back and forth a few times to smooth over the transition.

 

My youngest is within a few weeks (age) as your son.  When she was younger, her dad wasn't well. She resisted seeing him, never to his face (she'd recover just fine when we did visit with him) but she dreaded it so much.  So much that she had physical issues related to the stress of the situation :( Plus the more sick he got, the scarier he became to be around.  So we did the video thing using an iPad.  I think a FaceTime or Skype thing would've felt too stressful for her ... but the video messaging NOT in real time seemed to be low pressure and just fine. 

 

She'd go through phases of sadness and anger, and having a library of his videos helped her work through all of those emotions.  She was very private in choosing to watch them, and we gave her that space.  His injuries were a different beast than your separation, but the underlying issue is the same - finding that line between nourishing the relationship when the circumstances surrounding it feel fuzzy.

 

Good luck to your family, and especially your little guy.

[unfrumpable.]

I like the idea of a phone call or video, or even Skype. I will mention it to dh when we chat next.

 

I think you may be right, Wendy, about the processing time. He also says he doesn't want to live with grandma. He says he wants it to be just me and him and daddy can come along if he wants. I have reassured him that it is not his fault and that it has nothing to do with him. DH did too, before we moved. I may look into some counseling for him, just so he has someone else to talk to about it.

 

I just wanted to post again that I do appreciate all the comments and suggestions. :)

[unfrumpable.]

Oh my goodness if I could just get my thoughts out in one post....

 

I was always much closer to my mother.  Since my mother is the one who did everything for me (the stuff I understood as everything) and I spent the most time with her I felt most comfortable around her.  I never spent time alone with my dad.  That was a foreign concept really.  My mother passed away when she was 49.  I was 28.  At that point I just had my dad.  It actually took many years to feel a similar level of closeness.  Our relationship prior was just not the same as the relationship I had with my mom.  Could something like that be going on?  If so, I think it's just going to take time.  As a kid I can imagine being quite freaked out at the prospect of having separate relationships with my parents.

I was never close to my dad either. For a while I thought dh might be heading down that road too, but he has turned it around some, so we were both surprised that Ethan doesn't want to go do any of the fun stuff they used to do together.

[unfrumpable.]

In case anyone was wondering..... :)

 

We went to hang out with dh on Monday. Went to the apartment, then IHOP, then apartment again. Ds had an excellent time and was so happy to see his daddy. Ds told him how much he missed him too. So, fortunately, it seems the anger has passed. Ds wants to go see his daddy again this week. :) I am very grateful and happy that things worked out so well.

[Reflections]

:thumbup1:

[SKL]

As an adoptive mom, I see this behavior as feeling insecure about Dad's love and care being "forever."  It's natural.  Of course he needs to see his dad (and I was glad to see the positive update).  He needs to know that Dad will never let himself be pushed away from his young son.

[EmilyK]

Thanks for the update and glad it is going well.

 

This may be totally off point, but my friends who have separated have generally shared parenting time equally. So at least for nights and weekends, half of those are at dad's. my female friends have usually been bummed at first, not wanting to give up so much time with their kids, but it seems to be the default legal position. In any case, they have said as the kids got older it was helpful that dad was a complete coparent and not just someone the kids visited on weekends, in terms of the parent child relationship.

[Scarlett]

Thanks for the update and glad it is going well.

 

This may be totally off point, but my friends who have separated have generally shared parenting time equally. So at least for nights and weekends, half of those are at dad's. my female friends have usually been bummed at first, not wanting to give up so much time with their kids, but it seems to be the default legal position. In any case, they have said as the kids got older it was helpful that dad was a complete coparent and not just someone the kids visited on weekends, in terms of the parent child relationship.

 

 

My sister does Sunday to Sunday.  I would hate it.  But my XH was not an involved father and my son would have been lost without me for a week at a time. I got sole custody and XH has less than standard visitation.  My dh would love it....but his XW moved too far away effectively blocking that schedule completely.

[Melissa in Australia]

:hurray:

[Laura Corin]

I'd try to get to the bottom of how he is feeling before forcing the issue.  As someone who went through a parents' divorce, I can say that it's very hard for a child to understand something like, 'Mummy and Daddy love you very much but they are not getting on very well at the moment....'  He probably hasn't personally had long relationships that went bad, so he won't understand that feelings can change in that way.  He may well have decided that the breakup is his father's fault (because it's safer to be angry with him than with you, if you are the primary caregiver).  

 

I'd start a dialogue with, 'I was wondering if you were feeling angry with Daddy or me' and see where you go from there.

 

ETA: just saw your update.  I'm leaving my post up in case there's a recurrence.

 

L

[unfrumpable.]

That's great. How are you, yourself, feeling about the whole thing now?

 

I am hanging in there. :) Things have definitely been less stressful and more relaxing overall. But, when I saw my husband, I was also very sad. So, IDK. Time will tell.

[Michelle My Bell]

I just want to throw in there I have been seperated for over two years now and have no plans to reconcile. That said, I very much worked towards doing the family thing and changing as little in my kids lives as possible. My ex is welcome to stop by whenever he likes and he always does holidays with us. He sometimes takes the kids by himself but so do I so I don't see that as visitation. I made it clear that I felt the kids needed one place to live so they don't go to his apartment to spend the night and ex agrees. My kids have done very well through this whole process this far. Neither of us have dated yet so well see how that goes whenever that happens. I will be extremely cautious how I handle that in the future. I have no idea where I'll even find omeone to date. lol

[unfrumpable.]

I just want to throw in there I have been seperated for over two years now and have no plans to reconcile. That said, I very much worked towards doing the family thing and changing as little in my kids lives as possible. My ex is welcome to stop by whenever he likes and he always does holidays with us. He sometimes takes the kids by himself but so do I so I don't see that as visitation. I made it clear that I felt the kids needed one place to live so they don't go to his apartment to spend the night and ex agrees. My kids have done very well through this whole process this far. Neither of us have dated yet so well see how that goes whenever that happens. I will be extremely cautious how I handle that in the future. I have no idea where I'll even find omeone to date. lol

Thank you for your insight! For the time being, we are not seeing any other people and plan on dating each other and see what happens. But our top priority is to really find happiness/contentment/?? for ourselves before we can find happiness together again. We haven't even discussed any overnight time wrt ds. Do you feel things are pretty stable with your separation as is?

[Rosie_0801]

Our situation is very much like Michelle's, but for logistical purposes, Ex usually stays here on the weekends. Every month or so he'll take dd for an over nighter at his mother's place. It's a system. Not the most ideal system, but we are both generally civilised people so it works well enough.