Well intentioned child problem

[skimomma]

Having a tight budget can be tough. I don't think you were being a jerk, especially since you didn't share all you shared here with your DD. I think you're asking good questions about a sensitive situation. Do you think there is any way you can include your DD in the food budgeting process in some way? If she sees how every bit of food you consume fits in to the family's overall budget, she may understand that nothing should be wasted.

 

 

Yes, I can do that as I think it is a skill all children should be taught. When she selects her weekly dinner to prepare, we often discuss why certain recipes are better choices for us than others due to the cost of the ingredients,using up things we already have, or using ingredients that are in season. She also shops for the ingredients herself and while she does not have a budget she must stick within, she does calculate how much each serving costs and how that compares to other meals and/or restaurants. It is time to take it a step further I think.

[MFA323]

Maybe you could try making a list of things that DD can always help with. Making coffee and feeding the cat can go on the list. If she wants to be helpful, she can start working her way down the list. I understand why you feel frustrated, especially since you've talked about this before.

[happi duck]

I've had those moments of "um. thanks?" (especially with dh, poor guy)

 

Couple comments:

If it were me, I'd invest in a jar labeled "Starter! Do not eat!" and take out enough starter right away. Then no one, not even you, needs to remember not to finish the yogurt.

It is okay to make the kitchen your domain only if that's what it needs to be. If that's what you really want but aren't making that clear I can imagine that being stressful for everyone.

Do you have any foods that are available without asking? Maybe a snack shelf in both the pantry and fridge? If there is already a protocol for snacks, maybe you could invite dd to use those ingredients for surprises?

[skimomma]

I've had those moments of "um. thanks?" (especially with dh, poor guy)

 

Couple comments:

If it were me, I'd invest in a jar labeled "Starter! Do not eat!" and take out enough starter right away. Then no one, not even you, needs to remember not to finish the yogurt.

It is okay to make the kitchen your domain only if that's what it needs to be. If that's what you really want but aren't making that clear I can imagine that being stressful for everyone.

Do you have any foods that are available without asking? Maybe a snack shelf in both the pantry and fridge? If there is already a protocol for snacks, maybe you could invite dd to use those ingredients for surprises?

 

Good tip on making a starter jar:)

 

Actually, the kitchen is open to everyone. I have one shelf and one drawer in the fridge and one shelf in the pantry that are the "off-limits - needed for planned meals" area. Everything else is fair game. All leftovers, snacks, and random ingredients are free for anyone to use whenever they want. The only stipulation is to either let me know or write on the white board if something is used up or close to being used up so I can put it on the grocery list. And that dd ask before using the stove, oven, or electric tools OR preparing a planned meal. There are no rules as to when, how often, or how much people snack, cook, or graze. The yogurt in question was on the "off limits" shelf because it was part of a planned meal. And if dd has asked and was cleared to prepare the meal, it would have been fine for her to get out and use. Dd often "creates" in the kitchen and bakes frequently. Dd and her friend are currently making "popsicle creations" in the kitchen as I type and do bills in the next room. The mess will be spectacular:)

[Luanne]

I don't think the people on here are overreacting. I do think the OP is overreacting to what her daughter did. I also think she needs to lighten up ... a lot.

[briansmama]

I completely understand- we prioritize eating organic whole foods too and can't "loosen up" for the sake of our family's health (children react to any additives, gluten, and dairy). I think it's awesome that you have made eating healthfully a high priority for your family, even on a tight budget.

 

I'd probably let your dd know that all dairy is off limits, but if she's ever up for helping out the family and making breakfast, she can choose from several options (for us, this would be non-yogurt smoothies, banana/almond butter/egg pancakes, or scrambled eggs and bacon). All are relatively inexpensive.

 

I've heard it said that cooking is an inexpensive curriculum. When I look at it that way I'm much more tempted to give my kids the opportunity to create and even mess up recipes in the kitchen.

 

I do think setting boundaries would really help in this instance- who knows, you might just have a future caterer or chef on your hands :) you don't want to stifle that, so maybe just guide her a bit more to using ingredients that are inexpensive.

[Luanne]

There are actually studies that prove that eating 100% organic isn't necessarily any better for you than if you just ate regular fruits and vegetables. They had a big thing about this on the news one week.

[briansmama]

There are actually studies that prove that eating 100% organic isn't necessarily any better for you than if you just ate regular fruits and vegetables. They had a big thing about this on the news one week.

 

 

I respectfully disagree- pesticides cause cancer. Many dc react after consuming conventionally grown produce due to the chemicals used. Certainly interest groups work to publish studies to refute this, but they are often funded by large corporations invested in the outcome.

 

Plus, the only non-GMO corn available is organic, so we will continue to factor organic into our budget for our family.

[Murphy101]

Ugh. I don't know if some of these people saying you (the OP) is over reacting are even reading your posts.

 

Money is pretty tight and we eat almost 100% organic/local/whole foods

 

So almost does not equal all organic.

It also means local and "whole".

 

Which means it isn't convienence foods. Just buying yogurt might be easier, but it also costs a lot more than making her own. So using the last of the yogurt means she has to buy some AND make some before she can use yogurt again. That's just the reality of living on a tight budget. It's a PITA, but it is what it is. I commend her for trying to get as much healthy food as she can within her budget. Personally we just stopped having yogurt at all because it's too expensive to buy or make to me. I didn't get the impression she was angry or went ballistic about it. I just got the impression she was irritated and frustrated. Typical mom stuff to me.

 

Also personally, I commend the OP for being so patient and considerate of her sensitive daughter. It would drive me a bit nuts to have to deal with that aspect. I have three like that. It can be a frustrating personality to deal with sometimes, sweet as they really are. ;D

[Anne in CA]

Although it is only anecdotal, I ate almost all food that would be considered "organic" today, until I had school lunches when I was 6. We were extremely healthy. My mother and both of my grandmothers had gardens and grew different things so we had a lot of variety in fruits and veggies. We had several apple, pear, apricot trees and one of my grandmothers grew concord grapes. We ate mostly freshly picked fruit for snacks in the summer and nuts and dried fruit in the winter. Mostly for meat we ate game or chickens raised by one of my grandmothers. None of us went to the doctor unless it was for vaccinations. My family today does not eat all organic. Partly because the waste of highly expensive ingredients would send me over the top. As it is my kids waste more than I am comfortable with, but so much less than some other families that I cannot complain. So I am sympathetic to the idea that eating organic whole foods is healthy. My brother laments that he would do anything to eat the way we did when we were kids, but to eat that way would take his whole paycheck.

[Tammi K]

I also indicated in the OP that I feel dd is also at fault because she has been asked repeatedly to not make breakfast (specifically) because we do often run right up to the end of things the day before grocery/CSA/farm day. ..... I am not really sure where people are getting that I am a purist or that we have a lot of strict rules about food. We do have rules about preparing meals without asking first and I am simply asking for opinions on how upset (or not) I should be when they are not followed.

I think the reason people are getting the impression that you are 'a purist' is because you chose to include all of the information about your choice of food types and sources. If you had just posted that your daughter is being disobedient by using the kitchen without permission or supervision after being told not to do so, I think you would have gotten a different response.

 

By filling the original post with all the specifics about food, the post, in my opinion, made you appear as someone with an unhealthy need for control. But, really, again in my opinion, what you wanted was validation for your frustration for dd using the kitchen without permission. That is a totally separate issue, and to my mind one that is very important.

 

You've been given lots of advice and options to consider. Perhaps some of them will work for you. I won't offer any opinions there but just wanted to address your comment about peoples' interpretations of food beliefs.

[Murphy101]

All that aside, I prefer organic some of the time because it's just more edible. We have been buying organic bananas for years now and I am still stunned by the flavor difference. 1/2 my kids wouldn't eat regular bananas And I was only so-so. But organic bananas? Good grief. I have to ration them to make 3 dozen last more than one day! Same goes for spinach. Idk why the regular stuff tastes so bitter. It's awful. But the organic one? Not bitter at all. Eggs? Apples? Not a big difference so I'll buy the cheaper ones. But for ME, part of the reason I buy organic or whole is that my family is more likely to eat it. I don't care what it is, if they won't eat it - then it's a waste of money. If it doesn't boost their health, and certainly if it depresses their health, then it can cost us in medical bills.

 

I respectfully disagree- pesticides cause cancer. Many dc react after consuming conventionally grown produce due to the chemicals used. Certainly interest groups work to publish studies to refute this, but they are often funded by large corporations invested in the outcome.

 

Plus, the only non-GMO corn available is organic, so we will continue to factor organic into our budget for our family.

[Luanne]

I would like to add, unless you shop where there is ONLY organic sold, you may not always be getting 100% organic. When stores run out of organic, they just put regular produce there. I know from my father and daughter both working in grocery stores.

[happypamama]

It doesn't sound to me like you were overly harsh in how you handled it, and at 9, she should be old enough to understand that you've asked her repeatedly not to do this. But what a sweet girl!

 

I just went through a somewhat similar scenario today -- similar in that I get how you feel about the starter. We make kefir from live grains, so every time we make a smoothie, we take the grains out of the kefir and put them in new milk. It's difficult to get the grains, so it's a really big deal that they not get tossed into the smoothie. I showed my kids how to do that today, and I stressed that the really important thing was to take the grains out and put them in new milk. I really hope that wouldn't happen, but I hope that if it did, I could put my frustration aside and be grateful for their help. It is hard, sometimes, isn't it, to look on the bright side when you've told kids one thing or another several times?

 

I would take the board down and keep the menu more private. I would also work with your DD on ways she can surprise everyone that would be easier. Another thing I would do is buy some colored sticker dots -- put those on any food that people can't use without checking with you first. Tight budget or not, sometimes you just need an ingredient for a meal, and it is a real pain when that gets changed last minute. So on the last bit of yogurt, or the carrots you need for a dinner, or the two remaining eggs you need for the brownies you promised to bake for a meeting the next day, or whatever. That should make it a lot more obvious to everyone. (I really do get you; we have a very tight food budget too, even after relaxing our standards for what we'd prefer to be eating, and we live ten miles from a grocery store, so it's really a huge pain if something that I'd planned for gets screwed up.)

[abacus2]

 

I hesitate to respond to this since it is somewhat off topic. But yes, of course plans change, meals get swapped out, we decide to go for ice cream instead of dinner, etc..... No one is going to starve in my house due to this morning's incident. We'll eat the smoothies tomorrow, I will buy new starter, and life will go on perfectly fine. It is not a big deal. But we do have rules to avoid unnecessary disruption of the plans. Dd is in the kitchen almost daily helping me or working on her own projects....after she has asked and is being supervised to a level we are comfortable with.

 

My bigger question is how people (in general) feel about (minor) and repeated "disobedience" in situations in which the child has good intentions. Especially if that child is sensitive.

 

I think you have to decide whether to change the rules or deal with the disobedience. If she is allowed to make breakfast as a surprise and you wouldn't call that disobedience, then it isn't really against your rules. I wouldn't expect her to change unless you insist, but if you aren't going to insist, then go with the flow and be more flexible about food supplies at breakfast time. You might try labeling things that must be saved for a specific meal and/or designating a spot for food items dd is allowed to use without asking first.

[skimomma]

There are actually studies that prove that eating 100% organic isn't necessarily any better for you than if you just ate regular fruits and vegetables. They had a big thing about this on the news one week.

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

[Alice]

 

My bigger question is how people (in general) feel about (minor) and repeated "disobedience" in situations in which the child has good intentions. Especially if that child is sensitive.

 

I would look at the repeated disobedience and ask myself why. Is it because the child truly doesn’t understand? (A toddler who doesn’t understand a no-touch rule...) Is it because the child doesn’t care about being obedient? ( A child who knows that his sibling isn’t supposed to be woken up from a nap but just wants to play with him so does it anyway.) Is it because the rule is unreasonable or is too difficult for the child to comply with? (A teenager who is supposed to go to bed at 8 pm but is unable to fall asleep at that time.)

 

When I read your first post I thought you were asking if your rules were reasonable and I think that’s what a lot of people responded to. Maybe we read the post wrong but that’s the question I thought you were asking. Personally, I would find your rules unreasonable for a child of 9 in my house. HOWEVER, if what you are asking is more about the disobedience aspect in the face of rules that you think are reasonable and are not planning on changing then I think it sounds like you handled it fine.

 

It sounds like your rules for your daughter go against one of her innate personality traits (a desire to serve). Does that mean she can’t learn to obey? Of course not. But it does mean that this is probably going to be an issue you will have again (either with food or other areas) and will have to keep working on. I know my own kids issues and know that there are areas we have to work on. One has a really hard time admitting when he is wrong, that’s something I have to keep working with him on. In other areas I’ve decided to relax my rules where I don't think the desired character trait is worth the battle for obedience. For us, it’s keeping their room neat. I had rules and rules about what I wanted until I finally realized it’s what I want and it’s really their room and they don’t care about the mess. I relaxed the rules to basic hygiene standards and now it’s a total mess in my eyes but they are happy. I’m not setting them up to fail all the time by requiring them to do something that is so against their grain. I could have chosen to insist on my standards of neatness and required them to obey me. However, I decided it wasn’t an issue that I wanted to keep battling over.

[skimomma]

Ugh. I don't know if some of these people saying you (the OP) is over reacting are even reading your posts.

 

 

 

So almost does not equal all organic.

It also means local and "whole".

 

Which means it isn't convienence foods. Just buying yogurt might be easier, but it also costs a lot more than making her own. So using the last of the yogurt means she has to buy some AND make some before she can use yogurt again. That's just the reality of living on a tight budget. It's a PITA, but it is what it is. I commend her for trying to get as much healthy food as she can within her budget. Personally we just stopped having yogurt at all because it's too expensive to buy or make to me. I didn't get the impression she was angry or went ballistic about it. I just got the impression she was irritated and frustrated. Typical mom stuff to me.

 

Also personally, I commend the OP for being so patient and considerate of her sensitive daughter. It would drive me a bit nuts to have to deal with that aspect. I have three like that. It can be a frustrating personality to deal with sometimes, sweet as they really are. ;D

 

Thank you. I know some people think I am being a jerk. Others understand. That is all cool....that is what I asked for. Opinions about that specifically. Getting attacked for eating choices is a bit unexpected. And yes, I do not enjoy making yogurt and half of the other things I do in the kitchen, but I do what I do to make our food affordable. End of story. Yes that requires saving bits of yogurt and meal planning. That is life right now.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I agree with Alice.

[skimomma]

I think the reason people are getting the impression that you are 'a purist' is because you chose to include all of the information about your choice of food types and sources. If you had just posted that your daughter is being disobedient by using the kitchen without permission or supervision after being told not to do so, I think you would have gotten a different response.

 

By filling the original post with all the specifics about food, the post, in my opinion, made you appear as someone with an unhealthy need for control. But, really, again in my opinion, what you wanted was validation for your frustration for dd using the kitchen without permission. That is a totally separate issue, and to my mind one that is very important.

 

You've been given lots of advice and options to consider. Perhaps some of them will work for you. I won't offer any opinions there but just wanted to address your comment about peoples' interpretations of food beliefs.

 

I suppose I could be accused of doing too much to set the scene of the situation. I wanted to paint a clear picture of why it was a bigger deal to me than just simply running out of yogurt. For that, I have already said upstream that I should have a used a different (and less apparently politically charged) example.

 

What I asked for was opinions on whether this would bother anyone else. I appreciate responses from BOTH sides. I asked because it is a tricky dynamic and it helps to bounce it off of others. Nowhere have I said or suggested that people who would not share my frustration are not welcome to contribute to this thread.

[skimomma]

I would like to add, unless you shop where there is ONLY organic sold, you may not always be getting 100% organic. When stores run out of organic, they just put regular produce there. I know from my father and daughter both working in grocery stores.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with the question I asked. I will not take the bait.....organic or not:) Take it to a different thread.

[skimomma]

I would look at the repeated disobedience and ask myself why. Is it because the child truly doesn’t understand? (A toddler who doesn’t understand a no-touch rule...) Is it because the child doesn’t care about being obedient? ( A child who knows that his sibling isn’t supposed to be woken up from a nap but just wants to play with him so does it anyway.) Is it because the rule is unreasonable or is too difficult for the child to comply with? (A teenager who is supposed to go to bed at 8 pm but is unable to fall asleep at that time.)

 

When I read your first post I thought you were asking if your rules were reasonable and I think that’s what a lot of people responded to. Maybe we read the post wrong but that’s the question I thought you were asking. Personally, I would find your rules unreasonable for a child of 9 in my house. HOWEVER, if what you are asking is more about the disobedience aspect in the face of rules that you think are reasonable and are not planning on changing then I think it sounds like you handled it fine.

 

It sounds like your rules for your daughter go against one of her innate personality traits (a desire to serve). Does that mean she can’t learn to obey? Of course not. But it does mean that this is probably going to be an issue you will have again (either with food or other areas) and will have to keep working on. I know my own kids issues and know that there are areas we have to work on. One has a really hard time admitting when he is wrong, that’s something I have to keep working with him on. In other areas I’ve decided to relax my rules where I don't think the desired character trait is worth the battle for obedience. For us, it’s keeping their room neat. I had rules and rules about what I wanted until I finally realized it’s what I want and it’s really their room and they don’t care about the mess. I relaxed the rules to basic hygiene standards and now it’s a total mess in my eyes but they are happy. I’m not setting them up to fail all the time by requiring them to do something that is so against their grain. I could have chosen to insist on my standards of neatness and required them to obey me. However, I decided it wasn’t an issue that I wanted to keep battling over.

 

 

I appreciate your point. Many here have made some great suggestions for helping both my dd and me get what we want and I plan to use them. I am not inflexible when it comes to rules. We can certainly work something out that honors both needs. However, I do encourage my dd to come to us when she thinks a rule is unreasonable so that we can work something out together rather than just break the rule. It has happened over other rules and we have yet to come toa rule that we could not find an agreeable compromise on. Thanks to many of the suggestions given in this thread, I have a good basis to start that conversation with dd about this issue.

 

Although I gotta say....I have a lot of friends with kids the same age as dd. Many of them do not let their kids do anything in the kitchen, ever. Most look like they will faint when they see the high-holy messes my dd (and often their kid) has made in my kitchen. So I gotta snicker a little at the idea that it is unreasonable to put some boundaries on unsupervised kitchen and food use for a 4th grader.

[zoobie]

OP, if you had posted about a fictional "helpful" scenario that didn't involve food, you may have gotten very different answers.

 

Yes, it's sweet that your daughter wants to help and surprise you. However, I agree with you that this needs to be a teachable moment. If the person you are trying to help has specifically said PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS and you do it anyway, you are not being helpful. You're doing it because YOU want to do it and are serving yourself.

 

I haven't been here a long time, but I've read a few threads on "helpful" mothers or MILs who come in and think they know better than their daughters and rearrange cabinets, etc. Those threads are overwhelmingly supportive to the posters. I think people's food issues have obfuscated the OP's concern.

 

My DD also likes to plan surprises. She has a good heart. She also likes to be in control. Sometimes her elaborate plans are passive-aggressive attempts to gain control. I try to give her control and decision-making power in as many areas as I can. If she wants to surprise Daddy and make him a cake, I try to figure out if she's really trying to do something special for DH or if she just wants cake. If you want cake, just say you want to make a dang cake! Don't dress it up as an act of service. ;)

 

Can you give her "control" over breakfast? Put starter yogurt in a jar first of all (I'd be sad about that starter loss too). Together, sit down and plan a week's breakfasts. Then the next week she prepares the plan, you sign off, and she does the rest? I think it's also a good idea to bring boundaries and how to respect someone saying no into the discussion. Then work toward setting her up for autonomy in some situations. :)

[Mrs Mungo]

My kids are 12-17. They often make meals of their own volition. I have a basic menu plan that sometimes changes too. I have a shelf in my pantry and a shelf in my fridge for foods that the kids should not use when they are making meals independently (an independence that I encourage). That has solved the problem of using up foods that I need for other purposes in my home.

[QuirkyKapers]

I like what Alice said and am wondering ,you don't need to anwer publically, is this the big area where the rules are broken or is it all over the place? If she likes to serve, like Alice indicated, it will keep happening. What about meal prep and surprise with meals lights your dd on fire? I would label a jar with starter and than that would be solved. I can understand the frustration of having to start again with something and not feeling like the kids are really hearing what is being said. Yea, they nod their heads and say, "I get it mom", but than they impulsively do something contrary to that. I have to constantly evaluate, why am I so stinkin mad, is it triggering an issue I need to deal with? I want to have rules followed, I want to be listened to and really heard, but I also don't want to lose my childs heart. (I am not saying you aren't concerned about that, I am just giving you additional feedback to your post!)

[Tammi K]

 

Nowhere have I said or suggested that people who would not share my frustration are not welcome to contribute to this thread.

 

 

No, you certainly didn't. And, I don't see how what I posted that could have implied that I believed you did.

I simply said that I wasn't going to offer advice because it seemed that you already had plenty to consider.

[skimomma]

I like what Alice said and am wondering ,you don't need to anwer publically, is this the big area where the rules are broken or is it all over the place? If she likes to serve, like Alice indicated, it will keep happening. What about meal prep and surprise with meals lights your dd on fire? I would label a jar with starter and than that would be solved. I can understand the frustration of having to start again with something and not feeling like the kids are really hearing what is being said. Yea, they nod their heads and say, "I get it mom", but than they impulsively do something contrary to that. I have to constantly evaluate, why am I so stinkin mad, is it triggering an issue I need to deal with? I want to have rules followed, I want to be listened to and really heard, but I also don't want to lose my childs heart. (I am not saying you aren't concerned about that, I am just giving you additional feedback to your post!)

 

 

It happens in other areas. Laundry is another recent example. She is free to do her own laundry. She is also free to help with the house laundry, but ONLY if she asks. In a recent attempt to "help" she took all of the laundry out of the washer and put it in the dryer and started it. She did not know that there were two sweaters in the load that needed to be air dried. I caught it immediately (small house) so no damage was done but it boiled down to the same thing....she wanted to do something helpful, did not really understand why she needed to ask first, and it could have been costly. Her heart was in the right place. It was the first laundry incident so I explained it. I think she understood it and I doubt it will happen again. But it is clear that her compulsion to be helpful often outweighs her ability to think about the rules. Had she asked, I would have simply told her to find the two sweaters first and she could have done the rest all by herself.

[skimomma]

 

No, you certainly didn't. And, I don't see how what I posted that could have implied that I believed you did.

I simply said that I wasn't going to offer advice because it seemed that you already had plenty to consider.

 

 

I apologize if I misunderstood. I thought you were suggesting that I was looking for JAWM posts, which is not the case.

[skimomma]

OP, if you had posted about a fictional "helpful" scenario that didn't involve food, you may have gotten very different answers.

 

 

 

Yep. I learned my lesson there :001_smile:

[LibraryLover]

I don't think you were being a 'jerk', as we all have our paricular buttons/issues. But I admit that reading your post made be feel very anxious.

 

The bolded is what made me most anxious, even understanding that money was tight. It seems so stressful.

 

Would you feel happier, more relaxed if you let go a little? It really is 'just yogurt' (and not even wasted).

 

I have a small but reoccurring problem with my 9yo dd and want to know if others would have a problem with the situation or if I am just being a jerk.

 

Dd is so very sweet and is always looking for ways to be helpful and nice. She especially likes "surprising" her parents by doing things to help around the house.....especially in the kitchen. This is where we have a problem.

 

Money is pretty tight and we eat almost 100% organic/local/whole foods. To make this work, much of what we eat is home-made and I have to keep a very tight food preparation schedule and budget. I have a large white-board in the kitchen that helps me determine when to prep what food for each meal and therefore anyone can look at the board to see what each meal will be each day. Breakfasts usually revolve around local eggs with homemade toast or homemade yogurt/granola/fruit. However, both of these require ingredients that are both finite and/or require advanced prep. So some mornings we have to deviate from what the board says because we are running low on something. An accidentally dropped egg early in the week can change the breaeal days later, for examplekfast m. And someone other than me might not know this. There might be a full container of yogurt in the fridge but only I know that I need it for another meal and therefore might swap out a yogurt breakfast for something else. I also need some yogurt left to make the next batch. There are several similar variations on that theme. I have talked about this with dd and that she needs to ask before doing anything for meals in the kitchen.

 

Despite these discussions, she will occasionally take it upon herself to set her own alarm and get up before us to "surprise" us with breakfast. It happened again this morning. She saw yogurt was on the menu and started the morning stuff. She made the coffee (awesome), fed the cats (awesome), then started making the yogurts. The last part was not so awesome. I had decided last night to pre-make smoothies for a surprise. This used up all but the little bit of yogurt I need to make the next batch. Well, dd spooned that all out and covered it in granola and berries. It was not enough yogurt for even one person (which would have been a clue) but she proceeded forward.

 

So, of course, I was not pleased when I came into the kitchen to see her "surprise." I did not get angry but she knew right away that things got screwed up and feels awful. We have talked and talked and talked about asking before doing. And I realize this could be avoided if I took the time to update the board when there is a change. But often, I do not know there will be a change until that morning when I assess the current food situation.

 

So, now I am peeved. I have had the same yogurt strain going for almost two years and now I have to buy new plain yogurt to use as a starter. I realize this does not sound like a big deal, but it is to me. Plus, we did not eat the smoothies I had already made so tomorrow's breakfast will now also be altered as well.

 

It is such a little thing, but I am irritated. Dd feels bad. Dh thinks I am being a jerk to be upset by this (he does not really understand how much time and thought goes into food prep at our house).

 

Dd and I have already gently talked (again) about why she needs to ask first. I know she gets it but I am also sure it will happen again. She honestly cannot help trying to be helpful. I do not want to kill her helpful spirit. And I will go the extra steps of trying to better record what is going to happen on the white board when possible.

 

I am not really looking for advice as much as wanting to know if anyone else would have had a problem with this situation or if I just need to get over myself. Which leads to the greater general question; should I foster helpfulness even if it is not really "helpful?"

[Orthodox6]

I don't want to read all the responses and be subtly influenced by them, so I'll read them after I post.

 

Your daughter sounds like a gem, a real treasure with innate goodness to cherish and foster.

 

You do not seek advice; however, asking whether readers would, themselves, have a problem with the situation, or whether they would advise (oops) you to "get over it", leaves readers in the position of offering [unwanted] advice, or saying nothing. Leaves me puzzled!

 

Your meal planning and supplies monitoring create an atmosphere of severe regimentation that directly crushes the child's impulses to create something as a gift for her family, which also is good-tasting, and which will (she hopes) make them happy.

 

When a paycheck comes in from DH, nearly every penny of it already is earmarked. This includes food supplies. (We, also, eat the more costly organic, hormone-free, etc. food and cook the majority of things "from scratch".) My family members know the "rule" is to "Ask before taking/using" (unless the beverage or food item is on the "free for all" list). I, too, however, have a daughter who often feels moved to aid me with my impossible work load and never-ending fatigue, by cooking a surprise meal. Sometimes she disturbs my overall planning, yes. After the first time (a few years ago), when I displayed some upset feelings, I quickly realized that it was NOT worth the ruffled feathers (on me) if it was going to hurt the feelings of my very loving child, whose only motive was to help her mother and make her happy. I would rather have the close relationship with my now-fourteen-year-old daughter which I am blessed to have.

 

Gave it my best shot. . . .

[Jean in Newcastle]

It is not about food. It is about flexibility and not being so stressed over changes to schedule and plans. What you say later seems to indicate that money is not so tight that you couldn't buy a half-carton of free-range eggs later in the week if needed or make some more yogurt so the tight control of a food schedule seems strange to me. And even if money were that tight (and I've been there) then I would just switch to some organic oatmeal or something. I can empathize with a "Oh - let me regroup." feeling of walking into the room and seeing that I can't go ahead with my plans. But it would be a transient 5 minutes at most feeling while I went into to "hmmm. What should we do now?" I cook whole foods from scratch. Sometimes I don't have all the ingredients for my morning green smoothie so I experiment. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't! I don't understand if the smoothies were pre-made why you couldn't have had them anyway esp. since there wasn't enough of the yogurt/granola mixture to go around. But again - it isn't about food. Even in the laundry example all you have to do is to say, "Next time, make sure you take out any sweaters before putting stuff in the dryer." And if she doesn't and it is a habit of not listening, then have her do some chores to earn money to replace the ruined clothes. I don't see it as something to get upset about.

[Orthodox6]

Random postscripts, now that I have read the other responses. . .

 

"The Wooden Bowl", mentioned up-thread, is a powerful teaching story.

 

Someone wrote about children growing up in a household where food is monitored strictly, and the effects possible on those children. I reacted viscerally when I read that observation. I was "that child." My mother, a good woman who likely was emotionally shackled by the dire poverty in which she was raised (I do not exaggerate), fed us insufficiently and watched every bit of groceries. I grew up hungry -- very hungry. I taught myself which foods from the pantry and refrigerator I could steal with the least chance of being caught. I am not proud of my stealing; however, at the time I knew no other way to quell the overpowering desire to feel full for a fleeting moment.

 

In that I cook "from scratch", and a great many of the "recipes" used come out of my head on impulse, I can make a pleasant meal from just about anything found in the house. Flexibility is essential in cooking, as well as in many areas of family life. One reason that I love to prepare soups: When unexpected people show up and still are here for lunch or dinner, it is easy to throw in additional ingredients to stretch out the quantities. I would rather have the happiness of a full house!

[Galatea]

Ultimately I think you have to decide whether strict obedience to rules or willing helpfulness are more important traits to encourage in your child. If strict obedience is your goal, then you will have to accept that will squash some of the other desires in your child. Just as public schools often squash creativity in order to get every child to do the same thing at the same time, strict obedience at home could squash that excited helpfulness. And if you encourage the helpfulness, you will clearly be saying that some "rules" aren't as important as other rules. It's simply a choice you have to make as a parent on what is more important to you.

[AimeeM]

I don't think you're acting like a jerk exactly.

Rigid would be a better word.

[Candid]

Okay, first to your question. If I had answered before reading the whole thread, then I might have thought she was being disobedient and could understand not to prepare food without asking. BUT after reading the whole thread, I learn that the food rules are more complex than that. She can eat and prepare food from certain locations, she can't use the stove unsupervised, she can feed the pets, etc. Children don't often develop adult level critical thinking skills until mid to late high school. I use Tapestry of Grace and they suggest students aren't ready for their Dialectic and Rhetoric level materials until they've hit puberty. I'm hoping your 9 yo dd has not gotten there yet. So I think the complexity of what you are asking her to do is too much for her. It's like asking her to keep this in her mind before she does anything in the kitchen: http://jennysthesisp...jpg?w=640&h=790 or this http://timhigh.files...ecisiontree.gif

 

You've maxed her out. Plus part of what you are asking runs contrary to her innate helpfulness. That in built coding is going to win every time.

 

So you need to communicate with her differently. To be honest I'm not sure exactly how this is played out, but you've got to make the rules more simple.

 

Maybe for a month she is not allow to do anything with food without you being there. Then the next month nothing unless she asks you and so on until she has each add on mastered.

 

Or maybe you make a chart. One side says, "Thing dd can do in the kitchen," and the other side says, "Things dd can't do." No more than five things on each side. That means they need to be big broad and inclusive.

 

I think an apology to her in terms of the way you have communicated might be in order. "I'm sorry I made things too hard and confusing dd. We are going to try to make it clearer for you. I want you to help me figure out how to do that."

 

Now, for your part, I agree with others that the amount of control you are exercising over small things could be a problem. When you are upset that a culture you've used for two years has been used up when it simply means buying a new one then you are too invested in your system.

 

It is clear that your not following the system has caused this problem and you are unwilling to press the back-side of the doubled-edge sword of obedience into yourself. Let me quote a series of things you've said to illustrate what I mean.

 

I have a large white-board in the kitchen that helps me determine when to prep what food for each meal and therefore anyone can look at the board to see what each meal will be each day.

 

 

So there in the first post you lay it out pretty clearly that the board is for everyone to see what will be happening that day. With older children, you might even expect them to start dinner if you are out when it should begin. The board is the rule.

 

And your dd did follow it. As I've said above I think your rules are too complex for a 9 yo, but she has figured out that the board is king and she followed it.

 

 

And I realize this could be avoided if I took the time to update the board when there is a change. But often, I do not know there will be a change until that morning when I assess the current food situation.

 

 

Here I start to see you, excusing yourself. "Well sometimes I don't update the board because there might be changes." But the truth is you made the changes the night before, you could have updated the board with "breakfast suprise, ask mom," but you didn't.

 

 

And I will go the extra steps of trying to better record what is going to happen on the white board when possible.

 

Again I see the "when possible" but for your dd there is no "when possible."

 

My bad for not updating the board....even though the board is really for my own use only. I will be better about this when I can be.

 

 

Again I see you making exceptions for the board rule. This time it is "for my own use" and you "will be better."

 

I begin to wonder if you have truly been hoist with your own petard. Now it sounds like you handled this very gently with your dd, and that is commendable. BUT a iron hand in a soft glove is still a tyrant.

 

I think those suggesting you put the board away are wrong. Instead you need to learn to share it. You need to hold yourself accountable for what is on it and keeping it up to date. That can really work with what I say above about helping your dd help you which is what she desires. Include in your dd's five rules how she can interact with the board.

 

Otherwise you are liable to come home late one day when she is old enough to cook and find no meal and when you ask her why she didn't start she'll tell you, "But mom I didn't want to mess up your plan for dinner. I know how important that is to you." And the worse part is you won't know if she is being sincere or sarcastic.

[PhotoGal]

I think you should be very proud of your daughter's ability to take initiative! I feel I could learn a few things from you since my kids are the opposite - they are more likely to ask me to get a drink of water or snack for them than to get it themselves. I am working on it! I think it says a lot that you asked what other people think. I love the idea of having a list of things that she can help with when you are not there with her. Keep encouraging her and letting her know how much you appreciate the things she does. Maybe it would help to get her even more involved in cooking, laundry, etc. so she herself would know these things. If she was used to making yogurt with you, she would know that there always has to be a little bit of starter saved. Does that makes sense? As she becomes more capable, you will have less to worry about.

[skimomma]

I think we are starting to approach the "beating the dead horse" stage of threads like this. There are many issues. The original question of whether or not people would have been bothered by the situation, let it go completely, or addressed it gently with a child has been responded to by many, and I appreciate it. There are people who would have also been frustrated by the situation and others who would not have been. I am glad to know I am not an outlier. Being "bothered" does not mean how I feel is "right" just that, yes, things like this can bother people and can then be addressed as needed.

 

Then there is the secondary issue of whether or not people agree with how our family manages food...in which I have benefitted from many constructive suggestions, some gentle concerns, and some interesting extrapolations of my attempts at dictatorship with a side-serving of eating disorder. The latter could be another thread altogether and I will not bore everyone with any attempts to defend myself. We have good reasons for the way we do things and we are comfortable with it, although always mindful of how this concerns our dd. Obviously, I can always do better....I am a work in progress, as is everyone. And here, I have been offered some tools that will help to improve the situation....both my dd's independence and my ability to manage our food and budget. This is my one and only child and every stage brings something new that I have never experienced before. Responding to her always-growing independence does not come naturally for me and it helps to get advice and stories from people who have walked this path before me.

 

In the end, I am extremely proud and honored to have a child that is so caring and giving. This is a minor issue, obviously, but worth exploring and I thank those that have been helpful, gentle, and kind.

[Trish]

There's nothing wrong with having a system, or teaching kids to abide by it, but at the same time it sounds extremely rigid. Perhaps there is a way to build in a little more flexibility? I kind of go to Biblical stories like Mary "wasting" the expensive jar of oil in washing Jesus' feet. When Judas complained, Jesus admonished him, "the poor you will always have with you..." So maybe think of it that you will have your dear, sweet DD for only a limited amount of time, do you want her memories to be of disappointing you because she used up the last bit of yogurt? Or giving you a nice surprise? I'm not trying to take away from the lesson that she needs to ask, or be more careful with ingredients. But at that point, it was Yogurt Under the Bridge.

[happi duck]

 

Good tip on making a starter jar:) Yay! :D

 

Actually, the kitchen is open to everyone. I have one shelf and one drawer in the fridge and one shelf in the pantry that are the "off-limits - needed for planned meals" area. Everything else is fair game. All leftovers, snacks, and random ingredients are free for anyone to use whenever they want. The only stipulation is to either let me know or write on the white board if something is used up or close to being used up so I can put it on the grocery list. And that dd ask before using the stove, oven, or electric tools OR preparing a planned meal. There are no rules as to when, how often, or how much people snack, cook, or graze. The yogurt in question was on the "off limits" shelf because it was part of a planned meal. And if dd has asked and was cleared to prepare the meal, it would have been fine for her to get out and use. Dd often "creates" in the kitchen and bakes frequently. Dd and her friend are currently making "popsicle creations" in the kitchen as I type and do bills in the next room. The mess will be spectacular:)

 

 

Sorry for misunderstanding...obviously you've got protocols in place already!

 

This story reminds me of when I was a kid taking a bath and used a whole bottle of shampoo (in my defense it was a small bottle). I was trying to make a helmet of suds! I never understood why my mom was unhappy...until I was a mom. As an adult, I realized that I probably threw off her budget for the week and that others probably had to go without shampoo that week.

[linders]

I guess I'm in the "get over it" camp - I would be thrilled if my DC were so helpful and focused on healthful and independent food prep. It might feel to you like she is being disobedient, and yet to her she is quite likely thinking she is being very obedient to your written instructions (the white board). Perhaps you and she could review the board each evening before bed so you can update her on changes/new circumstances, so she knows the parameters for the next morning's breakfast. Or, just send he to my house, pretty please? Don't tell her she will have to deal with two boys who stagger out in the morning, collapse on the couch, and moan, 'What's for breakfast? I'm starving NOW!"

[EKS]

I got tired of reading all of the critical responses, so I skipped to the bottom and don't know if someone else already said this but...

 

If she were my daughter and we had your rules, I would tell her that you love her and that you love that she wants to help, but that when she did this particular thing with the yogurt (and whatever else she has done like it), she's not helping, she's actually making things more difficult for you. So please don't do it again. And then if she does it again, I wouldn't be nice at all. Because she's not helping. Seriously.

 

You might also consider *not* posting the week's menus on the whiteboard.

[Mommyof4ks]

I always try (not that I always succeed) to think about the big picture. How do I want my kids to grow up and how do I want them to remember their childhood. Personally, I would rather my dd grow up to be helpful and remember how wonderful it was to make breakfast for her family. I would love to have even one child that took that initiative lol. Yes, I have a child whose love is shown by helping others, and I do try very hard to make things available to help her accomplish that.

 

FWIW, prior to my son's cancer diagnosis we ate organic all the time, and since that time we have learned that we should do what we can, but relationships and growing our kids up to love people is more important than money or food.

[Luanne]

Random postscripts, now that I have read the other responses. . .

 

"The Wooden Bowl", mentioned up-thread, is a powerful teaching story.

 

Someone wrote about children growing up in a household where food is monitored strictly, and the effects possible on those children. I reacted viscerally when I read that observation. I was "that child." My mother, a good woman who likely was emotionally shackled by the dire poverty in which she was raised (I do not exaggerate), fed us insufficiently and watched every bit of groceries. I grew up hungry -- very hungry. I taught myself which foods from the pantry and refrigerator I could steal with the least chance of being caught. I am not proud of my stealing; however, at the time I knew no other way to quell the overpowering desire to feel full for a fleeting moment.

 

In that I cook "from scratch", and a great many of the "recipes" used come out of my head on impulse, I can make a pleasant meal from just about anything found in the house. Flexibility is essential in cooking, as well as in many areas of family life. One reason that I love to prepare soups: When unexpected people show up and still are here for lunch or dinner, it is easy to throw in additional ingredients to stretch out the quantities. I would rather have the happiness of a full house!

 

I was thinking this same thing. I wasn't raised hungry, but my mother didn't stick to a rigid schedule of only certain foods because they would be better for us. She instead chose cheaper foods so we wouldn't go around hungry all the time. I am all for being healthy, but if that means going hungry at least part of the time, it makes no sense.

[Luanne]

Candide ... AWESOME post! Thanks! :)

[Luanne]

I respectfully disagree- pesticides cause cancer. Many dc react after consuming conventionally grown produce due to the chemicals used. Certainly interest groups work to publish studies to refute this, but they are often funded by large corporations invested in the outcome.

 

Plus, the only non-GMO corn available is organic, so we will continue to factor organic into our budget for our family.

 

 

If it actually fits in your budget that is fine. I don't think your family should go hungry at times though if you can't afford 100% organic. That isn't right. I'm glad it fits in your budget. It doesn't sound like it does with the OP.

[texasmama]

My bigger question is how people (in general) feel about (minor) and repeated "disobedience" in situations in which the child has good intentions. Especially if that child is sensitive.

 

Your dd sounds precious. As someone else said, you are handling these replies graciously.

 

Putting this through my own parenting lens, I would sit down with this dd and tell her how very much I love her desire to be helpful and to "surprise" people she loves. Then I would tell her that not everyone loves surprises and not all surprises are helpful. I would involve her in a problem-solving discussion about how her need to be helpful and to surprise people can be met in a way that is truly helpful. I would finish it up with asking her to repeat back to me her understanding of what was decided. I would also ask her what makes it hard for her to do as you have requested and not make surprise meals. Would she be open to surprise cleaning of the bathroom or dusting the living area? I would make a written list of things that would thrill me if they occured as a surprise and give the list to her to keep for reference.

 

I have a 10 year old son with a heart to help others, much as your dd's heart. He is a very sensitive guy. He would not likely do what your dd did because he is a rule follower, but I can imagine the delicacy involved in having this talk with him in such a way that did not crush his spirit. It would be quite possible, though. I would make sure that he knew how much I valued his heart in the matter.

 

I hope that is helpful. In my own parenting, I try to err on the side of gentleness and grace. Because this action involves disobediences, I would consider it a character issue to be addressed, but I would address it very carefully, preserving the sweet heart under the clumsy actions.

[kitten18]

I don't think you were being a 'jerk', as we all have our paricular buttons/issues. But I admit that reading your post made be feel very anxious.

 

The bolded is what made me most anxious. I felt anxious even knowing that money was tight. It seems so stressful.

 

Would you feel happier, more relaxed if you let go a little? It really is 'just yogurt' (and not even wasted).

I agree. Reading the OP made me feel very anxious for you DD.

[Mommy22alyns]

I understand budgetary restrictions, but my heart would be melted by such a sweet and loving gesture from a child showing great initiative. Buy a new carton of yogurt and talk gently with her and give her specific tasks she can do or meals she can make. And I also agree with PP's who advocate a little loosening of dietary restrictions to cover incidents such as this. You have a lovely daughter.

[Luanne]

 

This has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.

 

 

Actually it does if you are buying your organic stuff at a regular super market. YOU made the 100% organic thing a part of the discussion yourself.